Official Seedings Thread

[greens]

Golden State just lost to the Suns. Utah just beat Houston. The next Spurs/Utah game is crucial. It will determine who gets number 3 spot. Right now, the Spurs are one loss less than both Utah and the Suns. They have the same number of wins! That means, the Spurs have to win the next game if they want to keep the number 3 spot. Both Utah and Suns have the advantage in the tie breaker with the Spurs...

Now, the question is whether Pop will allow Manu to play in the Utah game this Wednesday. In numerous articles, it said that Manu wanted to play and asked Pop to let him play...but Pop is being extra careful. Manu says that he is feeling just fine.

And now with the playoffs coming very soon, you do not want for Manu to be rusty. That's why I think he needs this Utah game in order to get his rhythm back for the playoffs. Otherwise, remember last year, when Pop sat out the Big Three right before the playoffs...then they lost to Denver in the first game due to being very rusty!

Not to mention this game vs Utah will determine the number 3 spot, meaning the home court advantage!!!

So, anyone know if Pop will let Manu play in that game? Since he didn't play in the recent two games, had about a whole week off...is feeling fine.

[Fabbs]

:reading
Lakers and New Orleans own the tiebreakers, right? So we can't advance beyond 3rd seed.
We own the tiebreaker vs Utah so Wed nights Utah game does not matter seedingwise, we are #3, period?

Except in that game we totally affect the three 27 loss teams Utah Houston Phoenix?
I know someone will break this down I'm just anxious to plan R1 opponent.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

I just don't want to face the Suns.


Granted, Utah are a beast at home, I'd much rather face Boozer than Shaq

[jrmp317]

if Phoenix wins and we lose, they own the tie breaker as does Utah

[Tigole Bitties]

Damn Houston. They needed to win tonight to have a chance at that #3 spot.

[Jobbs]

I just don't want to face the Suns.


this

[gmanrulz]

how do we have the tie breaker vs utah?

[Princess Pimp]

I just don't want to face the Suns.


Granted, Utah are a beast at home, I'd much rather face Boozer than Shaq


Understandable!

[TampaDude]

Uh...correct me if I'm wrong, but if we lose to the Jazz on Wednesday, we drop to #4 and get the Rockets, while the Jazz move up to #3 and get the Suns. Works for me! :toast

[Kori Ellis]

They aren't a lock in the 3rd seed.

I think the Spurs can be the 2nd seed, if N.O. loses both games and the Spurs win.
I think if it ends up a 4 way tie (Spurs, Rockets, Hornets, Suns), then I think the Spurs would drop to 6th.

[gmanrulz]

we cant be 6th since the rockets lost today, we will go as low as 5

[greens]

The bad thing is that the Spurs don't have any tie-breaker advantage!

[timvp]

Spurs vs. Jazz is a must win game. If the Spurs lose the game against the Jazz, if my math is correct, they'll fall to the sixth seed and play the Jazz on the road to begin the playoffs. That'd basically be a death sentence.

[Kori Ellis]

we cant be 6th since the rockets lost today, we will go as low as 5

I don't think that's correct because the tie breaker rules are different in the case of a multi-team tie.

[dbreiden83080]

Spurs vs. Jazz is a must win game. If the Spurs lose the game against the Jazz, if my math is correct, they'll fall to the sixth seed and play the Jazz on the road to begin the playoffs. That'd basically be a death sentence.

Is there incentive for the Jazz to win that game or it won't effect them if they lose???

[Princess Pimp]

Uh...correct me if I'm wrong, but if we lose to the Jazz on Wednesday, we drop to #4 and get the Rockets, while the Jazz move up to #3 and get the Suns. Works for me! :toast


Nope you will drop to 5th without home court.

[Ice009]

Uh...correct me if I'm wrong, but if we lose to the Jazz on Wednesday, we drop to #4 and get the Rockets, while the Jazz move up to #3 and get the Suns. Works for me! :toast

There would be a 4 way tie if that happened and we might end up 6th in that scenario.

[barbacoataco]

My head is hurting with scenarios.

[greens]

Uh...correct me if I'm wrong, but if we lose to the Jazz on Wednesday, we drop to #4 and get the Rockets, while the Jazz move up to #3 and get the Suns. Works for me! :toast

What if the Suns win their next game...Aren't they supposed to play Portland?

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Spurs vs. Jazz is a must win game. If the Spurs lose the game against the Jazz, if my math is correct, they'll fall to the sixth seed and play the Jazz on the road to begin the playoffs. That'd basically be a death sentence.


I suppose the other most likely scenario is to play the Suns with HCA?


I hate both matchups, but I feel more comfortable about the Spurs getting a split in the first two games against Utah and trying to hold serve at home than facing PHX who seem to have SA figured out since the Shaq trade (yes, you were right about the Shaq trade)

[gmanrulz]

I don't think that's correct because the tie breaker rules are different in the case of a multi-team tie.

Oh thats what the announcers said today i guess they were mistaken

[xcoriate]

so basically we don't own a tie breaker on anyone, classic.

We need the W against Utah tomorrow would go a long way to ensuring a first round match up with Houston. I don't see us sorting our shit out in time to get through a real contender in the first round.

[Princess Pimp]

The bad thing is that the Spurs don't have any tie-breaker advantage! Yep New Orleans own both Divison and Conference tiebreakers, Suns own your asses by virute of a 3-1 spanking in the season series!

[Amuseddaysleeper]

I think Houston needs to lose to Clippers, coupled with an SA win for us to face each other.


I can't see HOU dropping a game to the Clipps

[timvp]

we cant be 6th since the rockets lost today, we will go as low as 5They were saying that on TV but I don't think that is correct. If the Spurs lose against the Jazz and the Rockets and Suns both win, it'll be a four-way tie. The tiebreaker is cumulative record versus the tied teams.

The four teams would be Spurs, Jazz, Suns and Rockets. The Spurs are 4-8 versus those teams, the Rockets are 5-6, the Suns are 6-5 and the Jazz are 7-3.

That'd make the bracket end up us:

1. Lakers
2. Hornets
3. Jazz
4. Suns
5. Rockets
6. Spurs
7. Mavs
8. Nuggets

That'd be horrible for the Spurs. Going out on the road with a rusty team into the hardest gym in the NBA against a team that just beat the Spurs at home?

That'd most likely be season over.

The Spurs MUST beat Utah on Wednesday.

[TampaDude]

Yep New Orleans own both Divison and Conference tiebreakers, Suns own your asses by virute of a 3-1 spanking in the season series!

Too bad regular season record doesn't mean shit...just ask the Cavs... :lol

[greens]

They aren't a lock in the 3rd seed.

I think the Spurs can be the 2nd seed, if N.O. loses both games and the Spurs win.
I think if it ends up a 4 way tie (Spurs, Rockets, Hornets, Suns), then I think the Spurs would drop to 6th.



Do you think Pop will let Manu play vs Utah? I mean, we wouldn't want him to be rusty in the first game of the playoffs! Plus, it is the home court advantage on the line! And he says that he is feeling just fine...he wanted to play vs the Lakers...

[Princess Pimp]

There would be a 4 way tie if that happened and we might end up 6th in that scenario. Ouch I would say 5th, you own the tiebreaker against the Rockets (if endup tie)

[TampaDude]

Nope you will drop to 5th without home court.

We'd be 6th...no, wait...the season series vs. Houston is tied 2-2, but the Spurs would have a better division record...still the Jazz, but without HCA...tough choice...

[dbreiden83080]

They were saying that on TV but I don't think that is correct. If the Spurs lose against the Jazz and the Rockets and Suns both win, it'll be a four-way tie. The tiebreaker is cumulative record versus the tied teams.

The four teams would be Spurs, Jazz, Suns and Rockets. The Spurs are 4-8 versus those teams, the Rockets are 5-6, the Suns are 6-5 and the Jazz are 7-3.

That'd make the bracket end up us:

1. Lakers
2. Hornets
3. Jazz
4. Suns
5. Rockets
6. Spurs
7. Mavs
8. Nuggets

That'd be horrible for the Spurs. Going out on the road with a rusty team into the hardest gym in the NBA against a team that just beat the Spurs at home?

That'd most likely be season over.

The Spurs MUST beat Utah on Wednesday.

Oh boy that is not good at all. :bang

[Warlord23]

This is a useful link if you want to look at all possible scenarios. Basically we can be anywhere between #2 and #6 and it will come down to the last day of the season:

Yahoo scenarios link (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=AuC8wrsjbwTLTyXeaSKNprG8vLYF?slug=ys-playoffscenarios08&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)

[Princess Pimp]

Too bad regular season record doesn't mean shit...just ask the Cavs... :lol

Yes it does! this is the perfect example! seeding and HCA

[Amuseddaysleeper]

but Timvp, the Suns matchup blows as well, because they arguably play us better in SA than they do at home themselves.


Having said that, I see your logic, you obviously want HCA, especially when the alternative is to not have it against the best home team in the NBA, but barring the slim chance we face houston, this is a brutal brutal brutal first round for SA, who aren't even close to clicking on all cyclinders.

[timvp]

I suppose the other most likely scenario is to play the Suns with HCA?


I hate both matchups, but I feel more comfortable about the Spurs getting a split in the first two games against Utah and trying to hold serve at home than facing PHX who seem to have SA figured out since the Shaq trade (yes, you were right about the Shaq trade)As sure as I was right about the Shaq trade, I'm telling you the Spurs have a much better chance of beating the Suns with HCA than the Jazz without HCA. The Jazz are on fire, they're amazing at home and the Spurs aren't equipped to step out of the gates and be forced into must-win games. Shaq made the Suns harder but the Spurs need those two home games to start the series to shake out the cobwebs.

[greens]

I think whether the Spurs beat Utah depends on if Pop will let Manu play...

Look what happened vs the Lakers...

[Princess Pimp]

Wrong...we'd be 6th... Damn! even WORSE..Bye Bye Spurs you are out in the First Round if this even happens!

HCA will be huge this year...Even if Popazit says otherwise.

[ManuTim_best of Fwiendz]

I think the Spurs just need to make their last game a great win in preparation for playoff mode.

The standings are too confusing this year.
And we all know AJ paid for trying to mess with the bball gods last year.

[timvp]

Do you think Pop will let Manu play vs Utah? I mean, we wouldn't want him to be rusty in the first game of the playoffs! Plus, it is the home court advantage on the line! And he says that he is feeling just fine...he wanted to play vs the Lakers...I think Manu has to play on Wednesday. It'd be suicide to go into Utah with Manu playing his first game. A couple more days of rest won't do Manu much good. If he's going to re-injure himself, two or three days won't make a difference one way or another.

The playoffs start Wednesday.

[some_user86]

Parker's double-double helps Spurs secure third seed in West

SACRAMENTO, Calif. (AP) -- Tony Parker had a season-tying 32 points and 11 assists as the San Antonio Spurs clinched the third seed in the Western Conference with a 101-98 victory over the Sacramento Kings on Monday night.

The victory, coupled with Houston's loss to Utah, gave the Spurs third place in the conference for a second straight season. A year ago they defeated Cleveland in the NBA Finals.

LINK: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=280414023

[ChumpDumper]

Damn! You're still a douche!

[DAF86]

Answer this:

If we win, the suns win and the rockets lose, would the standings look like this?

1.Lakers
2.Hornets
3.Spurs
4.Jazz
5.Suns
6.Rockets
7.Dallas
8.Denver

this could be great

[dastrey]

Essentially, if the Spurs beat Utah they will take the #3 seed and play Phoenix. If they lose they will drop to 6th and play Utah on the road. This is assuming Houston beats the Clippers and Phoenix beats the Blazers.

[SequSpur]

Essentially, if the Spurs beat Utah they will take the #3 seed and play Phoenix. If they lose they will drop to 6th and play Utah on the road. This is assuming Houston beats the Clippers and Phoenix beats the Blazers.

Thanks Mr. Cliff note.

[Kori Ellis]

Parker's double-double helps Spurs secure third seed in West

SACRAMENTO, Calif. (AP) -- Tony Parker had a season-tying 32 points and 11 assists as the San Antonio Spurs clinched the third seed in the Western Conference with a 101-98 victory over the Sacramento Kings on Monday night.

The victory, coupled with Houston's loss to Utah, gave the Spurs third place in the conference for a second straight season. A year ago they defeated Cleveland in the NBA Finals.

LINK: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=280414023

:lol

I don't think the Spurs have clinched the 3rd seed.

[sa_kid20]

One the last day of the year...

Spurs lose
Rockets & Suns both win

Jazz get 3rd seed
Rockets get 4th seed
Spurs get 5th seed (but would have HCA because of tiebreaker)
Suns get 6th seed



Spurs & Rockets win
Suns lose

Spurs get 3rd seed
Jazz get 4th seed
Rockets get 5th seed
Suns get 6th seed



Spurs & Suns win
Rockets lose

Spurs get 3rd seed
Jazz get 4th seed
Suns get 5th seed
Rockets get 6th seed


(There is a chance we could still be 2nd if NO loses their last two games and we beat Utah)

[Princess Pimp]

Damn! You're still a douche!

Barely Beating the Kings without Ron Ron, Martin, Miller...Ouch!

[ChumpDumper]

Thank God someone started a thread about seedings!

[dbreiden83080]

I am almost not looking forward to the playoffs the way we are playing, and with these matchups.

[Princess Pimp]

Essentially, if the Spurs beat Utah they will take the #3 seed and play Phoenix. If they lose they will drop to 6th and play Utah on the road. This is assuming Houston beats the Clippers and Phoenix beats the Blazers. Which is very likely!

Bye !

[FearDaFro]

Just FYI guys, you can still finish 6th. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think i am.

In the event that Utah beats San Antonio on wednesday, Phoenix, Utah, Houston and San Antonio could easily all be tied at 55-27 after the season ends.

According to my calculations, the tiebreaker would go to cumulative head-to-head record among all 4 teams:

Utah: 7-3
Phoenix: 6-5
Houston: 5-6
San Antonio: 4-8

That's right, the Spurs will probably wind up with the 6th seed if they lose on Wednesday. They need to play it like a playoff game.

[ChumpDumper]

Barely Beating the Kings without Ron Ron, Martin, Miller...Ouch!Being a douche like you are every day of your life...Ouch!

[remingtonbo2001]

Parker's double-double helps Spurs secure third seed in West

SACRAMENTO, Calif. (AP) -- Tony Parker had a season-tying 32 points and 11 assists as the San Antonio Spurs clinched the third seed in the Western Conference with a 101-98 victory over the Sacramento Kings on Monday night.

The victory, coupled with Houston's loss to Utah, gave the Spurs third place in the conference for a second straight season. A year ago they defeated Cleveland in the NBA Finals.

LINK: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=280414023

:dizzy I give up. Seriously, at this point I don't care if we're 3,4,5 or 6 seed. Just get everyone back healthy. We'll be fine.

BTW, welcome back Brent.

[timvp]

Answer this:

If we win, the suns win and the rockets lose, would the standings look like this?

1.Lakers
2.Hornets
3.Spurs
4.Jazz
5.Suns
6.Rockets
7.Dallas
8.Denver

this could be greatYeah but the Rockets chances of losing against the Clippers at home is about .00000000001%.

[Kori Ellis]

Just FYI guys, you can still finish 6th. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think i am.

In the event that Utah beats San Antonio on wednesday, Phoenix, Utah, Houston and San Antonio will all be tied at 55-27 after the season ends.

According to my calculations, the tiebreaker would go to cumulative head-to-head record among all 4 teams:

Utah: 7-3
Phoenix: 6-5
Houston: 5-6
San Antonio: 4-8

That's right, the Spurs will probably wind up with the 6th seed if they lose on Wednesday. They need to play it like a playoff game.

Yes, that's already been posted in this thread by timvp.

[TampaDude]

Damn! even WORSE..Bye Bye Spurs you are out in the First Round if this even happens!

HCA will be huge this year...Even if Popazit says otherwise.

Actually, you're right...Spurs have a better division record than the Rockets.

[Newton]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=280414023

Clinched? I'm still confused.

[dbreiden83080]

:dizzy I give up. Seriously, at this point I don't care if we're 3,4,5 or 6 seed. Just get everyone back healthy. We'll be fine.

BTW, welcome back Brent.

Brent needs time against the Jazz man did he look Rusty out there.

[FearDaFro]

Yes, that's already been posted in this thread by timvp.

My bad, Kori.

Hey, do something about by tagline, would you? It was nice 4 years ago, but it was kinda left there...

I tried to edit it but I don't think i can.

[greens]

I think Manu has to play on Wednesday. It'd be suicide to go into Utah with Manu playing his first game. A couple more days of rest won't do Manu much good. If he's going to re-injure himself, two or three days won't make a difference one way or another.

The playoffs start Wednesday.


I know. I agree completely.

The only reason I'm asking is because every article seems to indicate that Manu won't play till the playoffs...Pop recently said that Manu will play for sure in the first game of the playoffs, but he didn't say much about the Utah game.

I don't see any reason why he can't play this Wednesday. He said that he is completely fine...he had already asked Pop to even let him play on Sunday...now he got two more games off...I think he needs this game to get himself back into game shape...

[Kori Ellis]

The AP writer obviously doesn't realize that the tie-breaker rules change if there's more than 2 teams tied.

[Warlord23]

Basically the Rockets F-ed it up by losing both to the Jazz and Nuggets. I'd have taken the #6 seed and a matchup w/o home court vs Houston.

Now a #6 means Utah w/o HCA.
A #3 seed means Phoenix.

[Kori Ellis]

My bad, Kori.

Hey, do something about by tagline, would you? It was nice 4 years ago, but it was kinda left there...

I tried to edit it but I don't think i can.

Private message me and tell me what you want it to say. I'll change it tomorrow.

[G-Nob]

No scenario favors a struggling team. Lets throw it in the fire and see what happens. The second season brings a new mindset. I don't care who we play.

Let's get it on. :makemyday

[DAF86]

Yeah but the Rockets chances of losing against the Clippers at home is about .00000000001%.

Man, i hope the clips can pull an upset. This could be the best picture for us. Not only 'cause we get to face the rockets in the first round but then we play a) an unexperienced N.O team or b) dallas with HCA and our biggets threats (suns and lakers) would be on the other side of the bracket

[Ice009]

Does anyone here ACTUALLY have a freaking clue about the seedings and 4 way tie scenarios? I've read a different take from almost everyone here.

Which one of you is actually certain about 4 way ties?

And can a non division winner get home court Vs a division winner? I don't think that's allowed even if the team has a better record than the division winner?

[TampaDude]

If the Spurs lose to the Jazz and the Rockets and Suns both win, there will be four teams (Spurs, Jazz, Rockets, Suns) tied at 55-27.

Figure that one out... :dizzy

[Warlord23]

If there's a 4-way tie, games played between the 4 teams is what counts. In that scenario, it's gonna be:
#3 Utah
#4 Houston
#5 Phoenix
#6 SA

[Budkin]

:lol

I don't think the Spurs have clinched the 3rd seed.

Yeah I just read this and was like what?? This is bullshit right?

[FearDaFro]

Does anyone here ACTUALLY have a freaking clue about the seedings and 4 way tie scenarios? I've read a different take from almost everyone here.

Which one of you is actually certain about 4 way ties?

And can a non division winner get home court Vs a division winner? I don't think that's allowed is it even if the team has a better record than the division winner?


It's kinda simple.

If more than 2 teams are tied with the same record, head to head is seeded by the best head to head record against everyone involved in the tie.

And yes, a non division winner can have home-court over a division winner. It's happened multiple times over the last few years.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

The shitty thing is that the clips lost by double digits both times they've played HOU.



And the final game is in houston.

[Tigole Bitties]

Spurs & Suns win
Rockets lose

Spurs get 3rd seed
Jazz get 4th seed
Suns get 5th seed
Rockets get 6th seed


If this happened, it would be sweet ass sweet

[TampaDude]

If there's a 4-way tie, games played between the 4 teams is what counts. In that scenario, it's gonna be:
#3 Utah
#4 Houston
#5 Phoenix
#6 SA

Which is worse for the Spurs...the Suns with HCA for the Spurs or the Jazz without HCA for the Spurs???

[duncan228]

Does anyone here ACTUALLY have a freaking clue about the seedings and 4 way tie scenarios?

NBA.com (I didn't clean up the cut and paste, use the link to read the multiple tiebreakers easier.)

http://www.nba.com/statistics/playoff_picture.html

TIEBREAKER BASIS:
(-) Tie breaker not needed (better overall winning percentage)
(1) Head-to-head
(2) Conference Record
(3) vs. Teams ultimately at-or-over .500
(4) Head-to-Head cumulative point differential
(5) vCoin toss (tied teams listed alphabetically above)
x-Clinched Playoff Berth | o-Eliminated from Playoffs contention | e-Clinched Eastern Conference | w-Clinched Western Conference
nw-Clinched Northwest Division | p-Clinched Pacific Conference | sw-Clinched Southwest Division | a-Clinched Atlantic Division
c-Clinched Central Conference | se-Clinched Southeast Conference
*-Games remaining vs.Teams Over/Under .500

Playoff Tie-Break Procedures

Ties for playoff positions (including division winners) will be broken utilizing the criteria set forth in subparagraph a. below (in the case of ties involving two teams) and subparagraph b. below (in the case of ties involving more than two teams), and the guidelines set forth in subparagraph c. below.

a. Two Teams b. More Than Two Teams Tied
(1) Better winning percentage in games against each other. (1) Better winning percentage in all games among the tied teams.
(2) Better winning percentage against teams in own division (only if tied teams are in same division). (2) Better winning percentage against teams in own division (only if all tied teams are in the same division).
(3) Better winning percentage against teams in own conference. (3) Better winning percentage against teams in own conference.
(4) Better winning percentage against teams eligible for playoffs in own conference (including teams that finished the regular season tied for a playoff position). (4) Better winning percentage against teams eligible for playoffs in own conference (including teams that finished the regular season tied for a playoff position).
(5) Better winning percentage against teams eligible for playoffs in opposite conference (including teams that finished the regular season tied for a playoff position). (5) Better net result of total points scored less total points allowed against all opponents (“point differential”).
(6) Better net result of total points scored less total points allowed against all opponents (“point differential”).

c. Guidelines For Applying Tie-Break Criteria.
The following guidelines shall be used when applying the above criteria to break ties for playoff positions:

(1) (a) Since the three division winners receive the first three playoff positions, ties to determine the division winners must be broken before any other ties.
(b) When a tie must be broken to determine a division winner, the results of the tie-break shall be used to determine only the division winner and its playoff position, not any other playoff position(s).

(2) If a tie involves more than two teams, the tie-break criteria in subparagraph b. shall be applied in the order set forth therein until the first to occur of the following:
(a) Each of the tied teams has a different winning percentage or point differential under the applicable tiebreak criterion (a “complete” breaking of the tie). In this circumstance, the team with the best winning percentage or point differential under the criterion will be awarded the best playoff position, the team with the next-best winning percentage or point differential will be awarded the next-best playoff position, and so on, and no further application of the tie-break criteria will be required.
(b) One or more (but not all) of the tied teams has a different winning percentage or point differential under the applicable tie-break criterion (a “partial” breaking of the tie). In this circumstance: (x) any team(s) that performed better under the applicable criterion than any other team(s) will be awarded a higher playoff position than such other team(s); and (y) teams that had equivalent performance under the applicable criterion will remain tied, and such remaining tie(s) will be broken by applying, from the beginning, the criteria in subparagraph a.(1)-(6) above (for any remaining tie involving only two teams) or subparagraph b.(1)-(5) above (for any remaining tie involving more than two teams) and the guidelines set forth in this subparagraph c.

(3) If application of the criteria in subparagraph a. or b. does not result in the breaking of a tie, the playoff positions of the tied teams will be determined by a random drawing.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Which is worse for the Spurs...the Suns with HCA for the Spurs or the Jazz without HCA for the Spurs???


As sure as I was right about the Shaq trade, I'm telling you the Spurs have a much better chance of beating the Suns with HCA than the Jazz without HCA. The Jazz are on fire, they're amazing at home and the Spurs aren't equipped to step out of the gates and be forced into must-win games. Shaq made the Suns harder but the Spurs need those two home games to start the series to shake out the cobwebs.

[Ice009]

If there's a 4-way tie, games played between the 4 teams is what counts. In that scenario, it's gonna be:
#3 Utah
#4 Houston
#5 Phoenix
#6 SA


Are you sure? This is yet another different take on this.

All I freaking want to know is where the SPurs end up in a 4 way tie. Why does Houston finish 4th when we have the tie breaker over them?

[TampaDude]

NBA.com

http://www.nba.com/statistics/playoff_picture.html

TIEBREAKER BASIS:
(-) Tie breaker not needed (better overall winning percentage)
(1) Head-to-head
(2) Conference Record
(3) vs. Teams ultimately at-or-over .500
(4) Head-to-Head cumulative point differential
(5) vCoin toss (tied teams listed alphabetically above)
x-Clinched Playoff Berth | o-Eliminated from Playoffs contention | e-Clinched Eastern Conference | w-Clinched Western Conference
nw-Clinched Northwest Division | p-Clinched Pacific Conference | sw-Clinched Southwest Division | a-Clinched Atlantic Division
c-Clinched Central Conference | se-Clinched Southeast Conference
*-Games remaining vs.Teams Over/Under .500

Playoff Tie-Break Procedures

Ties for playoff positions (including division winners) will be broken utilizing the criteria set forth in subparagraph a. below (in the case of ties involving two teams) and subparagraph b. below (in the case of ties involving more than two teams), and the guidelines set forth in subparagraph c. below.

a. Two Teams b. More Than Two Teams Tied
(1) Better winning percentage in games against each other. (1) Better winning percentage in all games among the tied teams.
(2) Better winning percentage against teams in own division (only if tied teams are in same division). (2) Better winning percentage against teams in own division (only if all tied teams are in the same division).
(3) Better winning percentage against teams in own conference. (3) Better winning percentage against teams in own conference.
(4) Better winning percentage against teams eligible for playoffs in own conference (including teams that finished the regular season tied for a playoff position). (4) Better winning percentage against teams eligible for playoffs in own conference (including teams that finished the regular season tied for a playoff position).
(5) Better winning percentage against teams eligible for playoffs in opposite conference (including teams that finished the regular season tied for a playoff position). (5) Better net result of total points scored less total points allowed against all opponents (“point differential”).
(6) Better net result of total points scored less total points allowed against all opponents (“point differential”).

c. Guidelines For Applying Tie-Break Criteria.
The following guidelines shall be used when applying the above criteria to break ties for playoff positions:

(1) (a) Since the three division winners receive the first three playoff positions, ties to determine the division winners must be broken before any other ties.
(b) When a tie must be broken to determine a division winner, the results of the tie-break shall be used to determine only the division winner and its playoff position, not any other playoff position(s).

(2) If a tie involves more than two teams, the tie-break criteria in subparagraph b. shall be applied in the order set forth therein until the first to occur of the following:
(a) Each of the tied teams has a different winning percentage or point differential under the applicable tiebreak criterion (a “complete” breaking of the tie). In this circumstance, the team with the best winning percentage or point differential under the criterion will be awarded the best playoff position, the team with the next-best winning percentage or point differential will be awarded the next-best playoff position, and so on, and no further application of the tie-break criteria will be required.
(b) One or more (but not all) of the tied teams has a different winning percentage or point differential under the applicable tie-break criterion (a “partial” breaking of the tie). In this circumstance: (x) any team(s) that performed better under the applicable criterion than any other team(s) will be awarded a higher playoff position than such other team(s); and (y) teams that had equivalent performance under the applicable criterion will remain tied, and such remaining tie(s) will be broken by applying, from the beginning, the criteria in subparagraph a.(1)-(6) above (for any remaining tie involving only two teams) or subparagraph b.(1)-(5) above (for any remaining tie involving more than two teams) and the guidelines set forth in this subparagraph c.

(3) If application of the criteria in subparagraph a. or b. does not result in the breaking of a tie, the playoff positions of the tied teams will be determined by a random drawing.

:dizzy

[milkyway21]

Uh...correct me if I'm wrong, but if we lose to the Jazz on Wednesday, we drop to #4 and get the Rockets, while the Jazz move up to #3 and get the Suns. Works for me! :toastis that true?

[Budkin]

Ok SI.com has it right...

Link (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/viewcast/2008/04/14/index.html?contestId=22748&vendorId=2008041423&vendorVisitTeam=24&vendorHomeTeam=23&pageType=recap)

The victory, coupled with Houston's loss to Utah, put the Spurs in position to clinch third place in the conference for a second straight season. A year ago, they defeated Cleveland in the NBA finals.

[timvp]

All I freaking want to know is where the SPurs end up in a 4 way tie.Sixth.
Why does Houston finish 4th when we have the tie breaker over them?Different tiebreaker rules apply.

[duncan228]

:dizzy

I'll see your :dizzy and raise you :dizzy :dizzy .

:lol It's unreal this year.

[Warlord23]

Are you sure? This is yet another different take on this.

All I freaking want to know is where the SPurs end up in a 4 way tie. Why does Houston finish 4th when we have the tie breaker over them?

Yeah I'm sure. 4-way tie = we finish #6 and face Utah without home-court

[Princess Pimp]

I am almost not looking forward to the playoffs the way we are playing, and with these matchups.

If you play the Jazz on the road, at least make it an interesting series and go the long way (7 Games) just like the Rockets did last yaer.

[timvp]

A horrible scenario would be Spurs lose and Rockets lose ... which would then make it Utah vs. Rockets and Spurs vs. Suns with Suns having HCA.

:pctoss

[Warlord23]

Who would have thought that the Jazz, derided all season long for playing in the weakest division in the West and underperforming on the road, would own the tiebreakers against the Spurs, Suns and Rockets, no matter whether 2, 3 or 4 teams finish tied (with the Jazz being among those teams, of course)

[Allanon]

The matchups are the hard part, tiebreakers are easy.

Spurs/Houston would qualify for "Division record" tiebreaker so Spurs have tiebreaker

Suns own the tiebreaker over the Spurs

Spurs/Jazz tiebreaker is the complicated one and comes down to these last 2 games and possibly goes into the "Record against Western Playoff teams". Both are only 1 game apart in the Conference record so that tiebreaker can swing either way.

[timvp]

If you play the Jazz on the road, at least make it an instersiting series and go the long way (7 Games) just like the Rockets did last yaer.Rocket Fan showing his true colors.

[BonnerDynasty]

If the Utah game comes down to us losing HCA then we MUST play Manu. Pop has said he won't (healthy 3rd better than non-healthy first blah blah blah) but we do not want to lose HCA to the Jazz imo. And losing HCA to the Suns after all this work? NOOOOOOOOOO

Maybe Spurs playing Suns is just destiny. Both teams have blown numerous opportunities for it not to happen. Rockets trying their best TO make it happen.

:pctoss :pctoss :dizzy :dizzy

[TampaDude]

Yeah I'm sure. 4-way tie = we finish #6 and face Utah without home-court

Fuck it, then...we gotta beat the Jazz...I don't care if we have to face the Suns...and maybe they won't end up in 6th place, anyway...

[timvp]

Spurs vs. Jazz is a must, must, MUST win game. It's a playoff game. The Spurs lose that game and I'd say their season is over. If the Spurs win, I like their chances to regroup enough to beat the Suns.

Manu has to play. No matter his condition.

[greens]

If the Utah game comes down to us losing HCA then we MUST play Manu. Pop has said he won't (healthy 3rd better than non-healthy first blah blah blah) but we do not want to lose HCA to the Jazz imo. And losing HCA to the Suns after all this work? NOOOOOOOOOO

Maybe Spurs playing Suns is just destiny. Both teams have blown numerous opportunities for it not to happen. Rockets trying their best TO make it happen.

:pctoss :pctoss :dizzy :dizzy



Well, who knows what Pop will do. But I think he HAS to play Manu...it's a game for home court advantage, the Spurs need it! And Manu had already missed 3 games...why miss four? Plus, he needs to work of the rust before the playoffs.

[duncan228]

Manu has to play. No matter his condition.

From everything that's been let out, he's okay. That's a good thing. I would hope we'll see him.

[DAF86]

Spurs vs. Jazz is a must, must, MUST win game. It's a playoff game. The Spurs lose that game and I'd say their season is over. If the Spurs win, I like their chances to regroup enough to beat the Suns.

Manu has to play. No matter his condition.

Don't put too much hope into it 'cause we're getting this game live here in Argentina so the spurs would probably lose by 20 :depressed

[greens]

From everything that's been let out, he's okay. That's a good thing. I would hope we'll see him.


Yes, all the articles indicate that Manu is fine...but Pop was just being extra careful...I also did read that Manu asked him to let him play vs the Lakers, then now vs Sacramento...

So he needs to let him play vs Utah.

[timvp]

What sucks is that if the Warriors would have hung on to beat the Suns, the Spurs could have tanked the game against the Jazz to setup Spurs vs. Rockets with the Spurs having homecourt in the 4 vs. 5 matchup. That would have been niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice.

:madrun

A must lose game followed by HCA versus the Rockets. Why did the Warriors have to choke?

:madrun

[TampaDude]

Manu will play on Wednesday...at least some minutes...

[greens]

Manu will play on Wednesday...at least some minutes...


Did you hear something new?

[ploto]

Better winning percentage in all games among the tied teams.
Here is the proof given above. All you need to know for multiple tied teams.

[TampaDude]

What sucks is that if the Warriors would have hung on to beat the Suns, the Spurs could have tanked the game against the Jazz to setup Spurs vs. Rockets with the Spurs having homecourt in the 4 vs. 5 matchup. That would have been niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice.

:madrun

A must lose game followed by HCA versus the Rockets. Why did the Warriors have to choke?

:madrun

Uh...cuz they're the Warriors... :lol

[TampaDude]

Did you hear something new?

Just my prediction...

[greens]

Just my prediction...


Oh, I was hoping you'd have an article or something...

Maybe we'll know something by tomorrow...

[Princess Pimp]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=280414023

Clinched? I'm still confused.
What part you don't understand?


The victory, coupled with Houston's loss to Utah, put the Spurs in position to clinch third place in the conference for a second straight season.

[Warlord23]

Basically the best scenarios for us have us facing the Rockets:
We win, Houston loses, Phoenix wins. We end up # 3 and face Houston (#6)
We lose, Houston loses, Phoenix loses. We end up #4 and play #5 Houston.
We lose, Houston wins, Phoenix loses. We end up #5 and play Houston (#4) w/o HCA

Worst scenarios: we don't get HCA and we don't get Houston
We lose, Houston loses, Phoenix wins. We end up #5 and play #4 Phoenix w/o HCA
We lose, Houston wins, Phoenix wins. We end up #6 and play #3 Utah w/o HCA.

Average scenarios: we get HCA, but we don't get Houston
We win, Houston wins, Phoenix wins. We end up#3 and play #6 Phoenix
We win, Phoenix loses. We end up #3 and play # 6 Phoenix (doesn't matter what Houston does)

[BonnerDynasty]

What sucks is that if the Warriors would have hung on to beat the Suns, the Spurs could have tanked the game against the Jazz to setup Spurs vs. Rockets with the Spurs having homecourt in the 4 vs. 5 matchup. That would have been niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice.

:madrun

A must lose game followed by HCA versus the Rockets. Why did the Warriors have to choke?

:madrun

They tried man! Pop showed his cards way too early tonight and the Suns figured out what was going on with plenty of time left.

:pctoss

[timaios]

If Rockets win
If Suns win
If Spurs win

3 Spurs 56 26
4 Jazz 54 28
5 Rockets 55 27
6 Suns 55 27

If Rockets win
If Suns win
If Utah win

3. Jazz 55 27
4. Suns 55 27
5. Rockets 55 27
6. Spurs 55 27

1st case the Jazz play the Rockets without HCA
2nd case the Jazz play the Spurs with HCA

Utah could lose against San Antonio on purpose to play Houston in 1st round !
If you are the Jazz what do you prefer ???

[Warlord23]

^^Utah with HCA is damn near unbeatable. No way they even consider tanking tomorrow.

[timaios]

^^Utah with HCA is damn near unbeatable. No way they even consider tanking tomorrow.

Yeah but Rockets or Spurs, in playoffs, it's not the same !

[TampaDude]

Utah could lose against San Antonio on purpose to play Houston in 1st round !
If you are the Jazz what do you prefer ???

It would be funny to watch both the Jazz and the Spurs trying to tank that game on Wednesday... :lol

[timaios]

It would be funny to watch both the Jazz and the Spurs trying to tank that game on Wednesday... :lol

But Spurs don't want to tank that game at all.
If Spurs lose that game, they got the Jazz without HCA !!!

[Allanon]

I guess what we DO KNOW for certain, just to get it out of the way:

Lakers/Hornets will be #1 or #2 (Hornets own Spurs tiebreaker)

Dallas/Nuggets will be #7 or #8. If Dallas loses and Denver wins their final games, they will switch...ugh!

[FearDaFro]

If you're Utah, you'd rather play the 96 Bulls with homecourt advantage than the 96 clippers without.

[BonnerDynasty]

Having to play Utah without HCA

AND

Having The Suns get Rockets in 1st round.


Jumping off the ledge right now....

[Ice009]

^^Utah with HCA is damn near unbeatable. No way they even consider tanking tomorrow.


Good point. I was thinking Utah would rather lose and face the Rockets in round one, but maybe they want the third seed because that would give them home court advantage against more teams in the west. Interesting scenario.

So who thinks Utah want the win?

[TampaDude]

It's all gonna come down to Wednesday...the #3 through #6 seeds are still up in the air...what a crazy year... :dizzy

[Ice009]

I think the Spurs need to win this one.

[Warlord23]

Edit ... Never mind ... I got that wrong ... guess I need to go to bed now

[ploto]

Boston 65-16
Detroit 57-23
Orlando 50-30
Cleveland 45-36
Washington 43-38
Toronto 41-40
Philadelphia 40-41
Atlanta 37-43

Toronto has the tie breaker with Philly so these are all set.

[Budkin]

It's time for fucking revenge against the Jazz on Wednesday. Fuck those bitches.

[Dingle Barry]

Basically the best scenarios for us have us facing the Rockets:
We win, Houston loses, Phoenix wins. We end up # 3 and face Houston (#6)
We lose, Houston loses, Phoenix loses. We end up #4 and play #5 Houston.
We lose, Houston wins, Phoenix loses. We end up #5 and play Houston (#4) w/o HCA

Worst scenarios: we don't get HCA and we don't get Houston
We lose, Houston loses, Phoenix wins. We end up #5 and play #4 Phoenix w/o HCA
We lose, Houston wins, Phoenix wins. We end up #6 and play #3 Utah w/o HCA.

Average scenarios: we get HCA, but we don't get Houston
We win, Houston wins, Phoenix wins. We end up#3 and play #6 Phoenix
We win, Phoenix loses. We end up #3 and play # 6 Phoenix (doesn't matter what Houston does)

Thanks.

[pku47]

They were saying that on TV but I don't think that is correct. If the Spurs lose against the Jazz and the Rockets and Suns both win, it'll be a four-way tie. The tiebreaker is cumulative record versus the tied teams.

The four teams would be Spurs, Jazz, Suns and Rockets. The Spurs are 4-8 versus those teams, the Rockets are 5-6, the Suns are 6-5 and the Jazz are 7-3.

That'd make the bracket end up us:

1. Lakers
2. Hornets
3. Jazz
4. Suns
5. Rockets
6. Spurs
7. Mavs
8. Nuggets

That'd be horrible for the Spurs. Going out on the road with a rusty team into the hardest gym in the NBA against a team that just beat the Spurs at home?

That'd most likely be season over.

The Spurs MUST beat Utah on Wednesday.
You're not right timvp, but
5 spurs 6 Rox

[Allanon]

Boston 65-16
Detroit 57-23
Orlando 50-30
Cleveland 45-36
Washington 43-38
Toronto 41-40
Philadelphia 40-41
Atlanta 37-43

Toronto has the tie breaker with Philly so these are all set.

That's cool, the East is all set and ready?

Crazy thing is 28 of 30 NBA teams play on Wednesday, but the only ones that will matter then are the Spurs, Suns, Rockets, Jazz and Mavs.

[cly2tw]

Fuck it, then...we gotta beat the Jazz...I don't care if we have to face the Suns...and maybe they won't end up in 6th place, anyway...

There is no "maybe" if Rockets win their gimmy to secure HCA in the 4/5 bracket. In that case, Suns will finish 6 with Spurs win, no matter what.

[DazedAndConfused]

Basically the Rockets and Suns will most likely win their games.

If the Spurs win or lose they are fucked. Going to play PHX or UTAH.

[FearDaFro]

You're not right timvp

yes, he is.

[FearDaFro]

That's cool, the East is all set and ready?



Yep.

All 8 seeds in the east are clinched, but no seeds in the west are clinched.

Funny world.

[NuGGeTs-FaN]

Likely scenario is the Jazz without HCA is that correct?

Jazz should beat the Spurs (unless the Spurs wake up)

Suns will beat Portland

Rockets will beat clippers

is that right? :lol

I wanted the Spurs to get the Jazz in round 1 BUT i wanted them to have HCA coz they could beat the Jazz. I guess that wont happen :drunk

Spurs are pretty much guaranteed a tough 1st round again. Although this time it wont be the pretender Nuggets :lol

[Newton]

What part you don't understand?

This part from the ESPN nba front page was very misleading. See "Spurs lock up No. 3 spot..."

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/index

That was the point of momentary confusion, you gender-confused/shemale troll.

[DazedAndConfused]

We can assume the following will happen

1.) Rockets will beat the Clippers
2.) Hornets will win at least one of their remaining games
3.) Suns *should* beat the Blazers (they've managed to do so easily this year)

The Spurs are screwed no matter what they do. If they beat UTAH they face PHX in the 1st round. If they lose to UTA they face UTA in the 1st round without HCA. SAS is in the worst possible position at this point.

[Ice009]

I just thought of something if we beat Utah and Houston wins that means Utah will be the number 4 seed and Houston number 5. Houston although number 5 seed would have a better record than Utah so does that mean that Houston would have home court advantage in round 1 over Utah?

If that's the case then that is another reason that Utah would want to win the game.

[Budkin]

Bring either one of those chumps on... let them try to beat the Spurs in a 7 game series.

[FearDaFro]

I just thought of something if we beat Utah and Houston wins that means Utah will be the number 4 seed and Houston number 5. Houston although number 5 seed would have a better record than Utah so does that mean that Houston would have home court advantage in round 1 over Utah?



That's correct.

Utah needs to win as badly as the spurs do.

[Ice009]

That's correct.

Utah needs to win as badly as the spurs do.

Shit. Just what I thought. Manu's gotta play then.

[timvp]

If the Spurs would have lost against the Kings, the playoff picture would have looked like this:

A win against the Jazz--

3. Suns
4. Jazz
5. Rockets
6. Spurs

A loss against the Jazz--

3. Jazz
4. Suns
5. Rockets
6. Spurs

Damn, if the Spurs hadn't won this game, they would have been locked into the sixth seed. Thank the basketball gods for the win.

[gasolina]

Yep New Orleans own both Divison and Conference tiebreakers, Suns own your asses by virute of a 3-1 spanking in the season series!

The Suns don't own the Spurs. If Suns fans base ownage on regular season series results, then your assessments are severely flawed !

Suns seemed to own the top-seeded Spurs in 2003. Won game 1 and felt good before they fell. In 2005, Suns had HCA over the Spurs but we all know who went fishing. Then in 2007, Suns again had HCA over the Spurs but again, we all know who went fishing in an Oasis in Arizona.

Personally, I think the West will be between old rivals the Lakers and Spurs. Though i feel confident that the Lake show will go deep, I'm still wary of the Spurs. Like last year, they are a different beast in play-off mode.

For all you doubters to understand this "fear"; take Lebron James' pre-Finals comments when he was interviewed by ESPN that the Cavs feel very confident about beating the Spurs having convincingly swept the season series against SA.

Then after just four games, brooms were selling like hot cakes by the Riverwalk!!!

[Allanon]

Here's an ESPN article that breaks down a 4 way tie (possible if Jazz beat the Spurs and everybody else wins)

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-32-49/A-Four-Way-Tie-Would-be-Magnificent.html


A Four-Way Tie Would be Magnificent

April 14, 2008 11:35 AM

On the Salt Lake Tribune's basketball blog, Ross Siler points out the very real possibility that the Jazz, Spurs, Rockets, and Suns could all end the season 55-27.

It'll take the coordinated efforts of all teams involved, and a Jazz win in San Antonio, where they tend to lose.

But it really could happen.

My first thought is: Cool! Exciting! Historical! And a perfect way to cap the West's season of parity.

My next thought was ... wow. I wonder how they break that tie? The division winners have to be in the top four. And the usual tie-breaker -- head to head record -- would seem to be a little more complicated with four teams.

Siler writes:

I'm not sure how exactly the NBA would break a four-way tie. The Jazz would have to be assured a top four seed as a division champion.

As far as individual tiebreakers go, the Spurs have a better division record than Houston, Phoenix owns the season series against San Antonio and Houston has a better conference record than Phoenix. Round and round we go.

If it comes down to conference record, the Jazz would finish 34-18, Houston 33-19, San Antonio 32-20 and Phoenix 31-21. The Jazz would play the Suns in the first round under this tiebreaker.

If it comes down to head-to-head against the other three teams, the Jazz are 7-3, Phoenix is 6-5, Houston is 5-6 and San Antonio is 4-8. The numbers are different because some teams were only scheduled to play three times this season.

The Jazz would play San Antonio in the first round under this tiebreaker. If San Antonio loses Monday and Wednesday, Utah and the Spurs would meet in the first round as well.

Of course, the Jazz also could lose Wednesday in San Antonio for the 21st consecutive time and settle for the No. 4 seed and a series with Houston.

OK, I can help here, I think. After the jump, I posted the entire tie-break rules, straight from the NBA. They are not entirely simple. You may want to bookmark this post so you can check them again as these next few days unfold.

My simplified interpretation as applies here: if all four end up tied, it does come down to winning percentage in games among the tied teams. And we're lucky, this year, that in this scenario such a tie-breaker really would settle everything without having to go deeper into the rules.

Based on Siler's research a few paragraphs above, if those four teams end up 55-27, after the tie-breaks have been applied, the Lakers and Hornets would be followed in the third through sixth spots in the West with:

* Jazz
* Suns
* Rockets
* Spurs

That would set up a killer Utah vs. San Antonio series. Now, you might wonder, who would get homecourt advantage in that series?

Again, we apply the tie-break procedures, although now we only have two teams to consider. And if this tie happens, then Utah will have finished 3-0 against the Spurs this season, and so the Jazz will get the extra game at home.


Playoff Tie-Break Procedures
Ties for playoff positions (including division winners) will be broken utilizing the criteria set forth in subparagraph a. below (in the case of ties involving two teams) and subparagraph b. below (in the case of ties involving more than two teams), and the guidelines set forth in subparagraph c. below.

Two Teams Tied
In the case of a tie in regular-season records involving only two teams, the following criteria will be utilized in the following order:

1. Better winning percentage in games against each other.
2. Better winning percentage against teams in own division (only if tied teams are in same division).
3. Better winning percentage against teams in own conference.
4. Better winning percentage against teams eligible for playoffs in own conference (including teams that finished the regular season tied for a playoff position).
5. Better winning percentage against teams eligible for playoffs in opposite conference (including teams that finished the regular season tied for a playoff position).
6. Better net result of total points scored less total points allowed against all opponents ("point differential").

More Than Two Teams Tied
In the case of a tie in regular season records involving more than two teams, the following criteria will be utilized in the following order:

1. Better winning percentage in all games among the tied teams.
2. Better winning percentage against teams in own division (only if all tied teams are in the same division).
3. Better winning percentage against teams in own conference.
4. Better winning percentage against teams eligible for playoffs in own conference (including teams that finished the regular season tied for a playoff position).
5. Better net result of total points scored less total points allowed against all opponents ("point differential").

Guidelines For Applying Tie-Break Criteria
The following guidelines shall be used when applying the above criteria to break ties for playoff positions:

(1)

(a) The first four seeds in each conference will continue to be given to the three division winners and the team with the next best regular season record, but these four teams will now be seeded in order of their regular season records. Among other things, this change will ensure that the two teams with the best records in the conference will not meet earlier than the Conference Finals.

(b) When a tie must be broken to determine a division winner, the results of the tie-break shall be used to determine only the division winner and its playoff position, not any other playoff position(s).

(2)

If a tie involves more than two teams, the tie-break criteria in subparagraph b. shall be applied in the order set forth therein until the first to occur of the following:

(a) Each of the tied teams has a different winning percentage or point differential under the applicable tiebreak criterion (a "complete" breaking of the tie). In this circumstance, the team with the best winning percentage or point differential under the criterion will be awarded the best playoff position, the team with the next-best winning percentage or point differential will be awarded the next-best playoff position, and so on, and no further application of the tie-break criteria will be required.

(b) One or more (but not all) of the tied teams has a different winning percentage or point differential under the applicable tie-break criterion (a "partial" breaking of the tie). In this circumstance: (x) any team(s) that performed better under the applicable criterion than any other team(s) will be awarded a higher playoff position than such other team(s); and (y) teams that had equivalent performance under the applicable criterion will remain tied, and such remaining tie(s) will be broken by applying, from the beginning, the criteria in subparagraph

a.(1)-(6) above (for any remaining tie involving only two teams) or subparagraph
b.(1)-(5) above (for any remaining tie involving more than two teams) and the guidelines set forth in this subparagraph

(3)

If application of the criteria in subparagraph a. or b. does not result in the breaking of a tie, the playoff positions of the tied teams will be determined by a random drawing.

[gasolina]

I don't belive the Jazz would love the play the Spurs in round 1. Neither would the Suns. I think the Jazz will tank the game on wed. so they can take on Houston. The Suns would love to take on Houston as well. But I think Houston will end up in sixth with the Spurs getting the 3rd spot.

[Bruno]

I don't think Utah (who win its division) could be a part of a three of four teams tie. If jazz, Spurs, Suns and Rockets are tied, a first tie breaker will happen between Spurs, Suns and Rockets. The winner of this tiebreaker (Suns) will have a head to head tie breaker with Utah to decide who will be third and who will be fourth. Utah has the Tie breaker over Phoenix and will be third.

Anyway, Rockets will play at 8:30pm, Spurs at 9:30 and phoenix at 10:00pm. (ET times). Spurs will only know the Rockets game result to decide or not to tank the game. Without knowing Suns result, the best case for Spurs is a win against Jazz whatever Rockets result is.
For Spurs the situation is quite simple, plays hard this game and try to win it. That's all.

[gasolina]

#1 N.O. Hornets vs #8 Denver Nuggets 4-1 Hornets
#2 L.A. Lakers vs. #7 Dallas Mavericks 4-1 Lakers
#3 S.A. Spurs vs. #6 Houston Rockets 4-1 Spurs
#4 Utah Jazz vs. #5 Phoenix Suns 4-2 Jazz

[JPB]

Damn, if the Spurs hadn't won this game, they would have been locked into the sixth seed. Thank the basketball gods for the win.

And thank Tony.

[JPB]

I don't think Utah (who win its division) could be a part of a three of four teams tie. If jazz, Spurs, Suns and Rockets are tied, a first tie breaker will happen between Spurs, Suns and Rockets. The winner of this tiebreaker (Suns) will have a head to head tie breaker with Utah to decide who will be third and who will be fourth. Utah has the Tie breaker over Phoenix and will be third.

I think you're right.

As a division winner Utah wouldn't be concerned by an overall tiebreaker.

In fact, they're assured to be no lower than the 4th seed. So, you could have a tie breaker to determine if they are 3 or 4. And another one, depending on the result to determine who is 3, 5 and 6 or 4, 5 and 6.

:drunk

[FearDaFro]

I think you're right.

As a division winner Utah wouldn't be concerned by an overall tiebreaker.

In fact, they're assured to be no lower than the 4th seed. So, you could have a tie breaker to determine if they are 3 or 4. And another one, depending on the result to determine who is 3, 5 and 6 or 4, 5 and 6.

:drunk


The funny thing is, in either scenario, the result is exactly the same.

With Utah in or out of the tiebreaker, it still plays Utah, Phoenix, Houston and San Antonio, in that order.

[JPB]

In fact,

there could be an overall tiebreaker including the fact that Utah couldn't drop further than the 4th seed.

[Cloud786]

Let's have New Orleans lose their last 2 games and make it a 5 way tie! Figure that one out!

[Spurs Dynasty 21]

my god, the Spurs must avoid the Suns

[YamaSama]

If the Suns lose to the Blazers, and the Spurs lose to the Jazz, then the Spurs play the Rockets in the first round... Is that right?

[ManuTastic]

Fuck it all. I want Phx in the 1st round. I want to make them eat shit and die. Can Shaq have more than 2 dominant games in a 7-game series? I doubt it.

I want the drama. I feed on it. And if we can't beat Phx, then we should just stfu and go home. In that scenario I personally would switch to being a temporary Suns fan and watch them smash up the Fakers. I'd probably go buy a copy of Kazaam.

[cly2tw]

If the Spurs would have lost against the Kings, the playoff picture would have looked like this:

A win against the Jazz--

3. Suns
4. Jazz
5. Rockets
6. Spurs

A loss against the Jazz--

3. Jazz
4. Suns
5. Rockets
6. Spurs

Damn, if the Spurs hadn't won this game, they would have been locked into the sixth seed. Thank the basketball gods for the win.

hahah. but now if they want to get the 3rd seed by winning the Utah game, they will face Suns again, though with HCA. It'd be revenge time for my Suns. :ihit

[stéphane]

Utah sure is a team you don't want to deal with if they have HCA. Glad we won that Sacto game.

[lefty]

If the Suns lose to the Blazers, and the Spurs lose to the Jazz, then the Spurs play the Rockets in the first round... Is that right?

That means an automatic 1st round win, since the Rocekts can't get past that 1st round

[SAGambler]

Yep New Orleans own both Divison and Conference tiebreakers, Suns own your asses by virute of a 3-1 spanking in the season series!

IIRC the Cavs owned us by virtue of the Regular Season spankings they handed out.

You see how well that worked for them in the Finals, don't ya?

[pad300]

my god, the Spurs must avoid the Suns

Son, you're becoming an embarrassment to Spurs fans everywhere. Find your pacifier an shut up. 1) No one has a time machine so you can quit whining about Scola. 2) In this situation there is only one appropriate response. PLAY BALL and WIN!!! You know, what the Spurs have been doing for the last DECADE! If we lose, then we lose with it all hanging out on the court, not with Butthurt crying about how scared we are of a team with a) NO CHAMPIONSHIPS, and b) that we have OWNED in the playoffs...

[TampaDude]

Let's have New Orleans lose their last 2 games and make it a 5 way tie! Figure that one out!

:dizzy :dizzy :dizzy :dizzy :dizzy

[DarrinS]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=ys-playoffscenarios08&prov=yhoo&type=lgns



WESTERN CONFERENCE

1. Lakers – Have clinched Pacific Division title and will be No. 1 or 2 seed.
• Clinch No. 1 seed with win or Hornets loss.


2. Hornets – Will be No. 1 through 3 seed.
• Clinch No. 1 seed with two wins and Lakers loss.
• Clinch No. 2 seed and Southwest Division title with win or Spurs loss.


3. Spurs – Will be No. 2 through 6 seed.
• Clinch No. 2 seed and Southwest Division title with win and two Hornets losses.
• Clinch No. 3 seed with win.
• Clinch No. 4 seed with Suns loss.
• Clinch No. 5 seed with Rockets loss.

4. Jazz – Have clinched Northwest Division title and will be No. 2, 3, or 4 seed.
• Clinch No. 2 seed with win and two Hornets losses.
• Clinch No. 3 seed with win.

5. Rockets – Will be No. 5 or 6 seed.
• Clinch No. 5 seed and home-court advantage in first round with win and Jazz loss.
• Clinch No. 5 seed with win or Suns loss.

6. Suns – Will be No. 4 through 6 seed.
• Clinch No. 4 seed with win and Spurs loss.
• Clinch No. 5 seed with win and Rockets loss.

7. Mavericks – Will be No. 7 or 8 seed.
• Clinch No. 7 seed with win or Nuggets loss.

8. Nuggets – Will be No. 7 or 8 seed.
• Clinch No. 7 seed with win and Mavericks loss

[Spuradicator]

Screw it, we'll play who we play AND win!

[TampaDude]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=ys-playoffscenarios08&prov=yhoo&type=lgns



WESTERN CONFERENCE

1. Lakers – Have clinched Pacific Division title and will be No. 1 or 2 seed.
• Clinch No. 1 seed with win or Hornets loss.


2. Hornets – Will be No. 1 through 3 seed.
• Clinch No. 1 seed with two wins and Lakers loss.
• Clinch No. 2 seed and Southwest Division title with win or Spurs loss.


3. Spurs – Will be No. 2 through 6 seed.
• Clinch No. 2 seed and Southwest Division title with win and two Hornets losses.
• Clinch No. 3 seed with win.
• Clinch No. 4 seed with Suns loss.
• Clinch No. 5 seed with Rockets loss.

4. Jazz – Have clinched Northwest Division title and will be No. 2, 3, or 4 seed.
• Clinch No. 2 seed with win and two Hornets losses.
• Clinch No. 3 seed with win.

5. Rockets – Will be No. 5 or 6 seed.
• Clinch No. 5 seed and home-court advantage in first round with win and Jazz loss.
• Clinch No. 5 seed with win or Suns loss.

6. Suns – Will be No. 4 through 6 seed.
• Clinch No. 4 seed with win and Spurs loss.
• Clinch No. 5 seed with win and Rockets loss.

7. Mavericks – Will be No. 7 or 8 seed.
• Clinch No. 7 seed with win or Nuggets loss.

8. Nuggets – Will be No. 7 or 8 seed.
• Clinch No. 7 seed with win and Mavericks loss

LMFAO...the Spurs could still be 2nd seed and face the Nuggets in the first round...again...not likely, but still mathematically possible... :lol

[Mitch Cumsteen]

The Jazz are going to tank the last game to draw Houston. Even as shitty as the Spurs have been playing and even though they would give up home court advantage in the first round, there is no way in hell Utah would rather face the Spurs than the Rockets without Yao. EVERYBODY in the West has been trying to figure out a way to play Houston in the first round, and Utah can clinch it by tanking against the Spurs. Utah hasn't won in SA in a hundred years. The Spurs and Jazz both know the Spurs can win in Salt Lake in the playoffs -- they did it last year. If there is any team that won't be phased by having to play in Utah on the road, it's the Spurs. Figure it out -- would you like to play the defending champs when you have no answer for Tim Duncan (who has owned your ass for over a decade) or play the Rockets with no inside presence.

Why on earth would the Jazz want to play the Spurs instead of the Rockets, regardless of homecourt advantage?

[YoMamaIsCallin]

Here is raw data.



Team Seed W L Lft Magic TB H2H H2H lft Div W Div L Conf W Conf L Remaining Games
Lakers 1 56 25 1 0 Lost 2 - 2 0 36 15 SAC
Hornets 2 55 25 2 -1 Lost 2 - 2 0 10 5 33 17 LAC, @DAL
Spurs 3 55 26 1 n/a n/a 0 10 6 32 19 UTA
Jazz 4 54 27 1 1 Lost 1 - 2 1 33 18 @SAS
Rockets 5 54 27 1 0 Won 2 - 2 0 8 8 32 19 LAC
Suns 6 54 27 1 1 Lost 1 - 3 0 30 21 POR
Mavs 7 50 31 1 0 Won 3 - 1 0 9 6 32 19 NOH
notes:
TB: tiebreak vs. Spurs. "Lost" means Spurs have lost tiebreak, "Won" means Spurs have won tiebreak.
Note: this is only 2-way tiebreak, 3-way and greater tiebreaks are different.
H2H: head-to-head record. H2H lft: H2H games left.
updated through 4/14 games
Jazz have clinched the NW division and no worse than a 4 seed.
Lakers own the tiebreak against the Hornets.


Head-to-head records for teams that could be in a tiebreak together:

Lakers vs:
NOH 3-1
SAS 2-2

Hornets vs:
SAS 2-2
UTA 1-3
HOU 2-2
PHO 4-0

Spurs vs:
UTA 1-2 with 1 game left
HOU 2-2
PHO 1-3

Jazz vs:
HOU 2-1
PHO 2-1

Rockets vs:
PHO 2-2

[xtremesteven33]

The Jazz are going to tank the last game to draw Houston. Even as shitty as the Spurs have been playing and even though they would give up home court advantage in the first round, there is no way in hell Utah would rather face the Spurs than the Rockets without Yao. EVERYBODY in the West has been trying to figure out a way to play Houston in the first round, and Utah can clinch it by tanking against the Spurs. Utah hasn't won in SA in a hundred years. The Spurs and Jazz both know the Spurs can win in Salt Lake in the playoffs -- they did it last year. If there is any team that won't be phased by having to play in Utah on the road, it's the Spurs. Figure it out -- would you like to play the defending champs when you have no answer for Tim Duncan (who has owned your ass for over a decade) or play the Rockets with no inside presence.

Why on earth would the Jazz want to play the Spurs instead of the Rockets, regardless of homecourt advantage?


i bet no one can tank a game like pop, hell pull another vaughn and satudemire duo haha.....wednesday night will not be fight to win but a fight to tank....should be fun either way haha...

[NuGGeTs-FaN]

awesome to know the Nuggets wont see the Spurs in the 1st round. Lakers/Hornets or Spurs would beatdown the Nuggets, but its nice for a change of scenery lol

[td4mvp21]

I'm hoping the Spurs win on Wednesday, the Suns win, and the Rockets lose. The Rockets probably won't lose but that's the best case scenario for the Spurs IMO.

[td4mvp21]

All other teams aside, the Spurs just need to win Wednesday. Get the third seed and play whoever with homecourt advantage. We may end up playing the Suns but its better than playing the Suns or Jazz without homecourt advantage.

[YoMamaIsCallin]

I don't think Utah (who win its division) could be a part of a three of four teams tie. If jazz, Spurs, Suns and Rockets are tied, a first tie breaker will happen between Spurs, Suns and Rockets. The winner of this tiebreaker (Suns) will have a head to head tie breaker with Utah to decide who will be third and who will be fourth. Utah has the Tie breaker over Phoenix and will be third.

I think that's an incorrect interpretation of the tiebreak rules. It never says anything about division winners getting special tiebreak treatment like this. It does say that IF a tiebreak is needed to resolve a division winner, THEN that tiebreak occurs first, BUT it is not otherwise applied. In this case (Jazz/Spurs/Suns/Rockets all finish with identical records) the Hornets would have won the division thus it doesn't enter in. No division titles to contest.

It would go like this: look at the cumulative head-to-head records among the four teams. This completely breaks the tie, and it would be:

UTA #3 (7-3 in cumulative record)
PHO #4 (6-5)
HOU #5 (5-6)
SAS #6 (4-8)

However, Houston would have HCA against Phoenix because they own the head-to-head tiebreak, even though they finish behind in the 4-way tiebreak. Bizarre but true.

Now you want a really crazy one? Five-way tie among NOH (loses 2 games), SAS (loses to UTA), UTA, HOU (wins 1 game) and PHO (wins 1 game). ALl have identical 55-27 records. What happens here?

First we figure out who won the Southwest Division, among Hornets, Spurs, and Rockets. This is a three-way tiebreak so we check cumulative head-to-head. This is completely tied, so next check is division record. Hornets and Spurs tie (because Hornets lost to Dallas). Next is conference record and Hornets win that. So Hornets win the division.

Next we do the 5-way tiebreak with cumulative scores. That, amazingly, completely breaks the tie as follows:

UTA #2 10-4
NOH #3 9-7
HOU #4 7-8
PHO #5 6-9
SAS #6 6-10

So the Spurs get to play the Hornets in the first round. And Utah actually gets the #2 spot and plays Dallas.

Is any media out there reporting that Utah could still get #2?

[Bruno]

I think that's an incorrect interpretation of the tiebreak rules. It never says anything about division winners getting special tiebreak treatment like this.

What would you've done if the tie-breaker between Spurs, Suns, jazz and rockets had put Utah in the 5th or 6th seed ?

It's not logical at all to do a tie-breaker with Utah that could put them 5th or 6th.

[adidas11]

I think I get it now. You have to go with a "overall record against the other multiple teams that you're tied record-wise with" approach, in order to avoid a circular logic in determining the seedings. That actually makes perfect sense.

You can't have a 'Team A won head to head vs Team B', then 'Team B won head to head against Team C', but then 'Team C won head to head vs Team A' kind of thing.

Sort of like A > B > C > A That doesn't work.

And then, as far as HCA is concerned, that's simple. Now you're down to the two individual teams, and you just look at each other's record. In the case of a tie, then you go with head to head (as at this point, you're only looking at the two teams in question)

Anyhow, this just goes to illustrate what kind of clusterfuck the western conference is.

[YoMamaIsCallin]

What would you've done if the tie-breaker between Spurs, Suns, jazz and rockets had put Utah in the 5th or 6th seed ?


See here (http://www.nba.com/statistics/playoff_picture.html#tbb).

You may be right. I think you'd need a lawyer to read these rules.

You could certainly interpret it as "Even if Utah is in a N-way tie with other teams in other divisions, they don't participate in the N-way tiebreak equation, because they already have a 1-4 seed."

Or you could go the other way. I'm just not sure.

[FearDaFro]

You guys do realize you are debating semantics...

With or without the jazz in the tiebreaker, the result is exactly the same.

Hypothetically, I agree there could have a been a real problem. But by fate it won't be a problem this year.

[Budkin]

Go for the 3rd seed with HCA over the Suns. Why the hell is everyone afraid of the Suns?

[adidas11]

Go for the 3rd seed with HCA over the Suns. Why the hell is everyone afraid of the Suns?

Answer: Shaq

[Allanon]

Answer: Shaq

AND1

Answer: Shaq + Amare + Diaw

Defense:
Spurs can't defend one without getting killed by the other due to lack of size.


Offense:
Shaq stops Duncan from going down low
Manu gets contained by Raja (ala Kobe)
Tony is suicidal trying to drive in on Shaq and Amare

Spurs become a jumpshooting team whilst Barry is still questionable, Ime's 3 is inconsistent, Horry can't hit the game winner. KT doesn't bother Amare because he's on the outside shooting jumpshots.

Bowen defensively is wasted guarding Nash since he can't stop Nash from driving and Nash isn't looking to score 30.

ShaqSuns are the perfect answer to DuncanSpurs. There is no X-Factor that I know of.

Suns don't matchup well against other teams with multiple talented bigs like Hornets, Lakers, Utah.

[pad300]

Some nice fellow at truehoop worked through all the possible playoff scenarios:

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-32-59/Tuesday-Afternoon-Amusements.html

Here's SA's

SA:

2nd if 56-26 and NO loses both games (Play DAL or DEN)

3rd if 56-26 and NO wins at least 1 game (Play PHO or HOU)

4th if 55-27, since UTA would also be 55-27, but only if NO ends up 55-27 and both HOU and PHO lose (Play HOU)

5th if same as above, but HOU or PHO also go 55-27 (Play HOU or PHO)

6th if same as above, and both HOU and PHO go 55-27 (See Biggest Tie) (Play NO)

6th if 55-27 and NO wins at least one, and PHO and HOU win (Play UTA)

So long as we avoid the 6 spot (UTA/NO w/0 HCA), I'm happy with our 1st round match up ... Therefore, win against the Jazz if we can.

[Budkin]

Answer: Shaq

Shaq is nowhere near the monster he used to be and Timmy held his own against him even in his prime.

[Horry For 3!]

Hornets won today so they have the #2 seed for sure, have a chance at #1.

That means Spurs have to win tomorrow against the Jazz to be the #3 seed.

[Ice009]

my god, the Spurs must avoid the Suns

There's no place for pussy shit like this. You win and then play who you have to. If you're that scared you may as well go home now.

Whoever we have to play you PLAY ALL OUT AND LEAVE IT ALL ON THE FLOOR. If you leave it all out on the floor you can walk away knowing you did all that you could. That's the only way to do it.

[Horry For 3!]

Looks like Lakers fixin to lock up the #1 seed.

So we have...

1 Lakers
2 Hornets
3 ?
4 ?
5 ?
6 ?
7 Mavs/Nuggets
8 Nuggets/Mavs