Kobe pulls a Shaq. Speaks on Kwame and Smush!

[LakeShow]

Lakers' Bryant Has Best Shot at Elusive MVP Award

By Michael Lee (http://projects.washingtonpost.com/staff/email/michael+lee/)
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, April 15, 2008; Page E01



LOS ANGELES -- Kobe Bryant (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Kobe+Bryant?tid=informline) has had better statistical seasons and won more games but has never been closer to winning the league's most valuable player award than he is this season.

On Friday, the Los Angeles Lakers (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Los+Angeles+Lakers?tid=informline) won the Pacific Division for the first time in the post-Shaquille O'Neal (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Shaquille+O'Neal?tid=informline) era and are in position to clinch the top seed in the tougher-than-ever Western Conference with a win tonight against the Sacramento Kings (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Sacramento+Kings?tid=informline).

Ballots for the league's top honors are due Thursday at 3 p.m., and Bryant appears to be in a dead heat with New Orleans Hornets (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/New+Orleans+Hornets?tid=informline) point guard Chris Paul (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Chris+Paul?tid=informline) for the game's top individual honor. Bryant is averaging 28.4 points, 6.3 rebounds and 5.4 assists, and he has lifted his team to elite status despite playing the final two months of the season with a torn ligament in his right pinkie finger. Plus, center Andrew Bynum (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Andrew+Bynum?tid=informline) has been out since Jan. 13 with a knee injury, and forward-center Pau Gasol (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Pau+Gasol?tid=informline) missed nine games with a sprained ankle.

Bryant did what some thought he was incapable of -- toning down his game to let his team get the glory. "I think for me to win an MVP [this season] would be special because that's always been the criticism of my game, is that I don't make other guys better," he said. "To win that or be in the hunt for that is special because it means people are recognizing that I am making my teammates better."

Bryant is making his teammates better partly because he has better teammates this season, beginning with the emergence of Bynum, who is in his third year; the midseason trade that brought former all-star Gasol from the Memphis Grizzlies (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Memphis+Grizzlies?tid=informline); and the signing last summer of free agent Derek Fisher (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Derek+Fisher?tid=informline), which has added stability at point guard position. Bryant said he feels that now he is "in a position to go into a gun fight with a gun."

"This is a special crew. I have more bullets in the chamber now," Bryant said. "We had Smush Parker (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Smush+Parker?tid=informline), who is not really playing now. We had Kwame Brown (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Kwame+Brown?tid=informline), who's in Memphis and not really playing much now. That was my point guard and my center, and in a pretty tough Western Conference, we still managed to win 45 games [in 2005-06] and get in contention. Now I'm fortunate to have weapons that my peers have had the last several years, with [Amare] Stoudemire and [Shawn] Marion (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Marion?tid=informline), [Tony] Parker and [Manu] Ginóbili. Now I have weapons."

Bryant's talent has never been in question; he is widely considered by players and executives as the game's best overall player. But despite the impressive résumé he has built over the past 12 seasons -- three NBA (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/National+Basketball+Association?tid=informline) championships, two scoring titles -- Bryant has never finished higher than third in MVP voting.

Two years ago, Bryant became just the fifth player in NBA history to average at least 35 points a game and provided the signature highlight of this millennium so far when he scored 81 against the Toronto Raptors (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Toronto+Raptors?tid=informline). How did he fare in MVP balloting? Fourth, when Phoenix Suns (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Phoenix+Suns?tid=informline) point guard Steve Nash (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Steve+Nash?tid=informline) won his second consecutive MVP.

"Kobe Bryant has been the best player in our league the last five years and he hasn't received the MVP. I don't know why," Cleveland Cavaliers (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Cleveland+Cavaliers?tid=informline) forward LeBron James (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/LeBron+James?tid=informline) said. "He's playing probably the best basketball, all-around. This is his year. He's had that type of year and his team has had that type of success."

Bryant was asked recently if he felt the reason he hasn't received more support is because voters don't like him. "I don't think so," Bryant said. "I think a lot of times the criteria changes. I think now, the way people vote for MVP is how you make your teammates better as opposed the '80s, when it was always just the best player."

Lakers Coach Phil Jackson (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Phil+Jackson?tid=informline) recently said that this is Bryant's "best year ever as far as an overall team player. I think the judgment that I kind of make is, how much better do you make your teammates? This has been one of Kobe's finest years in that regard."

Jackson added that he isn't surprised that Bryant hasn't won the award yet.

"With Shaq on this team for [eight] of those years, basically Kobe was going to be a second choice as far as being the most valuable player on that team," Jackson said. "Since that time, of course, not making the playoffs the subsequent year, there wasn't an opportunity. The following year, he really had an exceptional year. He had some outrageous games. That was the year that I would've guessed that he would've been named the MVP."

The difference for Bryant this season, Lakers General Manager Mitch Kupchak said, is "our performance as a team and his individual performance are kind of aligned and matched for the first time."

After failing to win MVP the past two seasons, Bryant said that winning championships were more important to him. Now both are within his grasp, something he said he wouldn't have imagined last summer after the Lakers lost in the first round for the second year in a row. Bryant made a clumsy demand to be traded to the Chicago Bulls (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Chicago+Bulls?tid=informline), which included him publicly criticizing both Kupchak and Lakers owner Jerry Buss (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Jerry+Buss?tid=informline). But Bryant believes that he put the organization on alert that he wouldn't settle for mediocrity any longer.

"I feel happy," Bryant said. "I had to shake the trees a little bit. The sense of urgency is there. Just from the magnitude of things, the hit that I took from that, I wish that I could've done some things differently. But looking at how things turned out, it's tough to argue that."

Bryant is pleased that the Lakers kept him, especially after the Bulls missed the playoffs this season and Phoenix granted Marion's trade request, shipping him to the league's worst team, the Miami Heat (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Miami+Heat?tid=informline).

"That's why it's good to have a no-trade clause," Bryant said. "I'm very happy to be in this position. To win an MVP would be special. Winning a championship would be extremely special because we could've gone from the bottom to the top. Seeing this whole process evolve, to see it end with a championship or parade would be very special."

[Gino]

Lamar Odom says Hi. And Nash won 54 without Stoudemire.

[Kobayagi]

Lamar Odom says Hi.

:lol

[balli]

And Nash won 54 without Stoudemire.

Yeah, but nobody remembers just how fucking good Marion was that year. Remember that strecth where he kept getting 30 pts and 20 bds. He still had Barbosa, Bell, Tim & Kurt Thomas (Letterman what). Amare's just Kenyon Martin to J-Kidd as far as I'm concerned. Take away his Pg and he's average.

Good for Kobe. Smush Parker needs to be embarrased. What an asshole he is. Kwame should just retire with his 54 million and move to Barbados. I use to mock him, but now it's just sad.

[jacobdrj]

K-Mart actually used to be a better defender than a scorer. Even during the Kidd era.
Amare has the talent, but doesn't seem to want to do the D thang.

[Allanon]

Lamar Odom says Hi. And Nash won 54 without Stoudemire.

Matrix, Boris Diaw, Tim Thomas, Barbosa and Eddie House say Hi.

[Medvedenko]

Yeah, what Kobe said is kind of shitty....but it's true.

[Medvedenko]

Also if not for the no-trade clause Kobe would have been gone.

[Gino]

Matrix, Boris Diaw and Kurt Thomas say Hi.

Kurt Thomas missed the final 30 games and playoffs witha n injury:

And Boris Diaw wasn't getting playing time on the worst team in the NBA before playing with Nash. Raja Bell was a backup guard for the Jazz.

Edit: You added Eddie House and Leandro Barbosa.

Barbosa was a human turnover in 04-05. Edddie House?

Seriously? Because Luke Walton, Sasha Vuajic, Jordan Farmar, Ronny Turiaf and Andrew Bynum don't have nearly the talent of Eddie House.

:rolleyes

[Capt Bringdown]

Kobe's got ego much? Love the way he refers to his teammates as if he were the owner of the team.

[Gino]

Kobe's got ego much? Love the way he refers to his teammates as if he were the owner of the team.

Yep, and I love the "now I have weapons" instead of the "now WE have weapons".

I guess Kobe didn't get the memo that he isn't the Lakers.

[Allanon]

Kurt Thomas missed the final 30 games and playoffs witha n injury.
He was still there for 50 games...Kwame missed about the same amount of time last year as well. And KT is MUCH better than the Kwames



Raja Bell was a backup guard for the Jazz.
Raja Bell was never expected to be anything but a defender. Even as a backup defender guard, he was better than Smush.


Barbosa was a human turnover in 04-05.
Uhm, Barbosa had his fewest turnovers that year of his entire career. Barbosa has not improved in the turnover department, but he's still better than Sasha Vujacic was last year.



Eddie House? Seriously? Because Luke Walton, Sasha Vuajic, Jordan Farmar, Ronny Turiaf and Andrew Bynum don't have nearly the talent of Eddie House.
:rolleyes

Yup, LAST YEAR, all those guys sucked. :spin

But if all that's not enough for you :rolleyes

Matrix says Hi too.

[ManuTim_best of Fwiendz]

When Kobe starts winning, he becomes less "politically correct" with his comments.



Kobe's got ego much? Love the way he refers to his teammates as if he were the owner of the team.
I agree, look at this quote



"I feel happy," Bryant said. "I had to shake the trees a little bit. The sense of urgency is there. Just from the magnitude of things, the hit that I took from that, I wish that I could've done some things differently. But looking at how things turned out, it's tough to argue that."
:dizzy :lol
It's not really tough to argue, had he discussed and thrown his tantrums behind closed doors I'm sure the Lakers would have done everything to try to make big trades without him embarrassing Laker fans and the Laker org.
Also, Kobe's ego probably leads him to believe that HE is now responsible for Bynum's emergence as a player. Not Kareem.

[balli]

And Boris Diaw wasn't getting playing time on the worst team in the NBA before playing with Nash. Raja Bell was a backup guard for the Jazz.

Raja Bell was a starter for the Jazz and a very important part of our team when he left. At that point he was known as a shooter too as well as a GREAT defender. I was furious when he left. I wouldn't have been if he were the nobody you say he was.

And who cares about Diaw when he was with the Hawks? That's on ATL. They were trying to make him play point. All I know is he was on my fantasy team that season and I remember absolutely loving him. He was so fucking good that year. I bet he had like 5 or six triple doubles and he won MIP. And in the playoffs? He averaged 19 points, 7 rebounds, 5 assists, and a block per game on .526 field goal percentage.

[1Parker1]

Lamar Odom says Hi..


:lmao :lmao :tu

[ambchang]

That is just so low ... I never expected any other superstar to throw their ex-teammates under the bus like that.

[Phil Hellmuth]

kobe is a narcissist

[sribb43]

Steve Nash was able to make washed up/journeymen players like Jim Jackson, Eddie House, Raja Bell and Tim Thomas way better, so why couldnt KB24 do the same for Kwame and Smush?

[Gino]

Raja Bell was a starter for the Jazz and a very important part of our team when he left. At that point he was known as a shooter too as well as a GREAT defender. I was furious when he left. I wouldn't have been if he were the nobody you say he was.

And who cares about Diaw when he was with the Hawks? That's on ATL. They were trying to make him play point. All I know is he was on my fantasy team that season and I remember absolutely loving him. He was so fucking good that year. I bet he had like 5 or six triple doubles and he won MIP. And in the playoffs? He averaged 19 points, 7 rebounds, 5 assists, and a block per game on .526 field goal percentage.

Thats why Nash won the MVP and Kobe didn't.

[J Zone]

lmao@ you guys bashing kobe

who gives a fuck about kwame and smush

[TheMACHINE]

How selfish of kobe..i didnt know smush and kwame sucked..how dare he reveal to the world that they are bad players. Those are two ballers. How dare you not make them better. How dare you Kobe! OMG you said "I"....wtf Kobe...wtf man...asshole. Cant believe you only got 7th place with Smush, Kwame and Luke Walton as your starting 5. You SUCK!

[DazedAndConfused]

Exactly Kobe didn't even say anything THAT bad about them. Everything he said was truthful, there is no use sugar-coating the fact that both of those players sucked giant donkey balls.

[adidas11]

Exactly Kobe didn't even say anything THAT bad about them. Everything he said was truthful, there is no use sugar-coating the fact that both of those players sucked giant donkey balls.

+1

[LakeShow]

:lol I knew the haters would have a ball with this. Listen, what Kobe said was exactly true. He did not ridicule those players, he just said that now he has better players and any idiot could see that he does!

I'm so sick of the Nash makes his players better, blah, blah, blah, wgaf! Nash doesn't bring titles to his teams so they can't be that much better. WGAF about regular season accomplishments? The Lakers certainly don't. I bet Phoenix hang their division flags like they've done something. The lakers had to rent a storage space to store those things.

It don't mean a thing, it you don't have a ring!

[Bob Lanier]

Kwame's got a great enough heart to take the downs with the ups.

Or enough Downs to take the heart...

or something.

[The Nba Is Rigged]

Kwame's got a big enough heart to take it.

Hey Bob remember when you came to my high school last year? That was awesome man, thanks alot. :toast

[Bob Lanier]

<--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hey Bob remember when you came to my high school last year?
Yes. Yes I do.

Who was that little freshman I did lines off of?

[JamStone]

Uh Lamar Odom has never been an all star.

And what did Kobe say wrong? Kwame Brown and Smush Parker are on two of the worst teams in the league and don't get any playing time. Why persecute a guy for stating facts?

[balli]

Thats why Nash won the MVP and Kobe didn't.

So you say those guys sucked before they got there and I refute it. Well. Then you make the same argument? I don't get it? I guess it was Nash getting Diaw all those assists and rebounds.

Those MVP's were a joke. Let's hook a terrible at defense pg up with MVP for doing things that plenty of pg's had done before, but with absolutely no MVP consideration, much less actually winning it.

And I don't get this Kobe hate? I didn't even think about it. Everyone talks shit about Kwame. And Smush Parker- didn't his own team ban him from their facilities this season. I don't see the difference between Kobes opinion, the facts and the national consensus about those two.

[Gino]

:lol I knew the haters would have a ball with this. Listen, what Kobe said was exactly true. He did not ridicule those players, he just said that now he has better players and any idiot could see that he does!

I'm so sick of the Nash makes his players better, blah, blah, blah, wgaf! Nash doesn't bring titles to his teams so they can't be that much better. WGAF about regular season accomplishments? The Lakers certainly don't. I bet Phoenix hang their division flags like they've done something. The lakers had to rent a storage space to store those things.

It don't mean a thing, it you don't have a ring!

Eh...thus far, the Lakers have had exactly zero playoff series wins since they went with Kobe as "the man".

[Gino]

So you say those guys sucked before they got there and I refute it. Well. Then you make the same argument? I don't get it? I guess it was Nash getting Diaw all those assists and rebounds. T

Those MVP's were a joke. Let's hook a terrible at defense pg up with MVP for doing things that plenty of pg's had done before, but with absolutely no MVP consideration, much less actually winning it.

And I don't this Kobe hate? I didn't even think about it. Everyone talks shit about Kwame. And Smush Parker- didn't his own team ban him from their facilities this season. I don't see the difference between Kobes opinion, the facts and the national consensus about those two.

Yeah, a lot of those players did suck before Nash.

If you really think Nash's MVP(s) were a joke, then thats your opinion. I don't really care.

[lefty]

Not politically correct, but I do agree with Kobe.

Kwame and Smush = shit

[JamStone]

They've had playoff wins, just not playoff series wins. And, they weren't favored in the series either time.

[LakeShow]

Eh...thus far, the Lakers have had exactly zero playoff series wins since they went with Kobe as "the man".
In 3 years Kobe hasn't won a ring. :rolleyes without one all star on his team but he has made it to the playoffs regardless. Nash hasn't won a title in 20 (or however long he's been in the league) with at least 2 allstars on every team he's been on. So what's your point?

[Gino]

In 3 years Kobe hasn't won a ring. :rolleyes without one all star on his team but he has made it to the playoffs regardless. Nash hasn't won a title in 20 (or however long he's been in the league) with at least 2 allstars on every team he's been on. So what's your point?

Wait a second, you just said that Nash doesn't bring titles to Phoenix so he can't make them THAT much better.

But Kobe can't even win a playoff series, let alone a title. In fact, he couldn't even make the playoffs in 05!

[DazedAndConfused]

The Lakers have had exactly 0 playoff series wins since Shaq left because their teams have sucked royal donkey dick. In fact, I'll take it once step further.....none of those teams belonged in the playoffs. It took a superhuman effort from Kobe in '07 just to get them there.

Kobe gets reamed for trying to make lemonade out of dog shit. There is nothing you can do when your teammates just don't have talent, Kwame and Smush are prime examples. They can't get playing time on the WORST TEAMS IN THE NBA, and they started on the Lakers. No MVP candidate in the last 5 years has had to deal with that.

[LakeShow]

Wait a second, you just said that Nash doesn't bring titles to Phoenix so he can't make them THAT much better.

But Kobe can't even win a playoff series, let alone a title. In fact, he couldn't even make the playoffs in 05!
Kobe had no Allstars until now and was part of a major overhaul of the lakers. Bad coach and players. He had players like Cook, Smush and Kwame as his help. Nash has had all stars everywhere he's played. No excuse for not winning at least one title unless youre overrated. Which Nash is~

[Gino]

The Lakers have had exactly 0 playoff series wins since Shaq left because their teams have sucked royal donkey dick. In fact, I'll take it once step further.....none of those teams belonged in the playoffs. It took a superhuman effort from Kobe in '07 just to get them there.

Kobe gets reamed for trying to make lemonade out of dog shit. There is nothing you can do when your teammates just don't have talent, Kwame and Smush are prime examples. They can't get playing time on the WORST TEAMS IN THE NBA, and they started on the Lakers. No MVP candidate in the last 5 years has had to deal with that.

Derek Fisher is the same point guard the Lakers had when they won three titles, IIRC.

Why is it that without Bynum and Gasol, the Lakers have been mediocre at best? Whats his excuse for the rest of his current team?

Are they all "dogshit" too?

[Allanon]

Wait a second, you just said that Nash doesn't bring titles to Phoenix so he can't make them THAT much better.

But Kobe can't even win a playoff series, let alone a title. In fact, he couldn't even make the playoffs in 05!

It's a matter of talent, you ain't taking an NBDL league out of the first round...it's possible but it's hard as hell. Nash has had talent around him.

Kobe's had Smush, Kwame and Luke for starters...wouldn't YOU be pissed?

Now that he has ONE other All-Star, look what he and the Lakers have done. Nash has had at least 2 other All Stars with him and 6th Man of the Year Barbosa but he has not even reached the Finals.

Nash has 3 All Stars
CP3 has 2 All Stars
KG has 2 All Stars
Detroit has several All Stars
Kobe has 1

It will be interesting to see what Kobe does with 1 All Star this year...but even then, the Haterade will probably still be free flowing.

[LakeShow]

Oh, and kobe was injured in 05

[Gino]

I like how Laker fans want to pretend the only players they had on their team were Smush and Kwame.

What about Odom? What about Caron Butler?

Radmanovic, Walton, Vujacic, Farmar, Turiaf and BYNUM were all on the team last year, weren't they?

Who cares about Smush and Kwame? What about all those guys?

Nash had freaking James Jones as a starter and Boris Diaw as a center and went all the way to the WCF in 2006. Didn't hear him complaining.

[Allanon]

I like how Laker fans want to pretend the only players they had on their team were Smush and Kwame.



What about Odom? What about Caron Butler?
Odom lost his child and had a major shoulder injury...this is his first injury free year in ages. Caron Butler was traded. Post-Shaq they missed the Playoffs.



Radmanovic, Walton, Vujacic, Farmar, Turiaf and BYNUM were all on the team last year, weren't they?
Ramanovic was injured, then injured again when he went snowboarding
Walton is an OK bench player but should never be a starter
Vujacic was an "11AM" player, missed wide open shots during games
Farmar was an inconsistent rookie
Turiaf is a solid backup Center to Kwame friggin' Brown
Bynum was a kid who sneaked off during practice to eat Fruit Loops in the training room.



Who cares about Smush and Kwame?
Uhmmm....they're your STARTERS. Sure, let's trade Smush and Kwame for Ray Allen and Paul Pierce? Or perhaps we can trade Kwame and Smush for Peja and David West? :rolleyes



Nash had freaking James Jones as a starter and Boris Diaw as a center and went all the way to the WCF in 2006. Didn't hear him complaining.
James Jones > Smush
Diaw > Kwame

All Star Matrix says Hi!

[Gino]

All Star Matrix says Hi!

All star Butler says hi back.

And Kobe should tell Nash how hard it is to deal with teammates getting injured and how you should demand to be traded if that happens.

[Allanon]

All star Butler says hi back.

Traded.

[Gino]

Traded.

:rolleyes


Why wasn't he an all-star with Kobe?

Isn't Odom more talented than Marion?

[Allanon]

:rolleyes


Why wasn't he an all-star with Kobe?

Isn't Odom more talented than Marion?

It takes a few years for players to come into their own. During that time, he had potential but no consistency. As Butler matured, he became more consistent. He wasn't given a chance to mature before they shipped him out...bad trade but that was front office stuff. There was a joke back in Miami "the two Butlers (Caron/Rasual) fighting to see who was more irrelevant".

I don't know if Odom is more talented than Marion. They're both wildly talented and mismatches. Odom is the better locker room guy.

Odom was learning the triangle in the first year, 2nd year he lost his child...that's a very hard thing to overcome.

[Gino]

It takes a few years for players to come into their own. During that time, he had potential but no consistency. As Butler matured, he became more consistent. There was a joke back in Miami "the two Butlers (Caron/Rasual) fighting to see who was more irrelevant".

I don't know if Odom is more talented than Marion. They're both wildly talented and mismatches. Odom is the better locker room guy.

Odom was learning the triangle in the first year, 2nd year he lost his child...that's a very hard thing to overcome.

I agree (about his terrible loss), but this is actually Odoms fourth year on the Lakers.

[Allanon]

My bad, 4th year. He's having a hell of a 4th year now that he's a 3rd option.

Lamar took a very long time to learn the triangle as his is one of the most difficult positions to learn ... I don't think he finally learned it until late last year.

I don't think Odom will ever be a good #2 option and that was the biggest flaw. Forcing an off the ball player to become the man.

[DazedAndConfused]

I like how Laker fans want to pretend the only players they had on their team were Smush and Kwame.

What about Odom? What about Caron Butler?

Radmanovic, Walton, Vujacic, Farmar, Turiaf and BYNUM were all on the team last year, weren't they?

Who cares about Smush and Kwame? What about all those guys?

Nash had freaking James Jones as a starter and Boris Diaw as a center and went all the way to the WCF in 2006. Didn't hear him complaining.

Lamar Odom - Not a reliable #2 option. Never has or will be.

Caron Butler - Did not become an All-Star until he left LA. If you watched the Lakers you'd know he just wasn't a good fit in the triangle offense alongside Kobe.

Radmanovic - Was lost in the triangle his 1st year and injured his hand while snowboarding during the All-Star break. Never got into a rhythm.

Turiaf - Was a solid backup to Kwame, but still a little green and coming off heart surgery.

Vujacic - Did not make the jump from a good practice shooter to a gametime shooter until this year.

Bynum - Still just a 19 year old kid, way too raw to be effective. Didn't make a huge leap until this season.

Smush, Kwame, Walton - Do I have to say anymore about these 3?

Nash had a better supporting cast, even when Amare was injured. Don't see how you can argue against that unless you are a Celtics homer who hasn't really followed the Lakers much in the past three seasons yet continues to post like he knows something about the team.

[Medvedenko]

Odom is finally healthy with the lakers and is paying dividends. He's been awfully hurt the last few seasons and timid as a result.

[JMarkJohns]

Nash has 3 All Stars

Context, please... Nash has one All-Star, two former All-Stars, each having failed to play up to All-Star levels for at least two seasons, and in Hill's case, like eight.

As for 05-06, people discredit that season way too much. it was an astonishing feat what Nash was able to do with that group.

As many have said already, Marion was his lone constant. He was a great, great constant that year, easily deserving the 3rd-team All-NBA selection, and he should have been named to the All-Defensive team as well.

However, from there you have a rag-tag band of benchwarmers, scrubs and journeymen constructing the remainder of the rotation.

Jim Jackson was shipped out early, so I won't even include him.

Raja Bell was playing for his fourth team in six seasons. Yes, he was coming off a career year with Utah, but his career bests were 12 ppg, 3 rpg, 1.5 apg. He was being brought in to be the backup SG. When JJ left, he was pressed into starting.

Kurt Thomas was a great addition, but he was out down the stretch. Sure, he factored into the 50 wins, but missing 30 games is a huge blow to a team already without its best frontcourt player.

Tim Thomas was a late add, and he was so valuable to the other teams in the NBA, he was playing for his fourth team in two seasons, being traded three times and waived without ever suiting up for the team just prior to signing with Phoenix. Sure, he [t]turned out to be a fantastic addition[/i], but at the time it was hardly a sure thing. What has he done without Nash? About half of what he did with.

James Jones was a career benchwarmer in Indiana. He had value to Phoenix because he could play either forward position, and could shoot from range. Beyond that, he held little value. Nash really, really helped him before a bad ankle injury effectively ended his season. Yeah, he returned, but the touch on the perimeter jumpers was never regained that season.

Boris Diaw was a career benchwarmer in Atlanta. He had some value to Phoenix because he was a young prospect with good size and perimeter skills, but he was so raw he could barely crack the rotation on one of the worst teams in the League.

Leandro Barbosa, at this point, was little more than a waste. D'Antoni failed to develop him, benched him and shattered his confidence. Yes, he had talent, but D'Antoni seemed incapable of maximizing it. it was Mike's brother, Dan, who worked with Leandro to improve his ball-handling, jumpshot and ability around the hoop. in 04-05 he'd actually regressed in most categories from his rookie year. Entering 05-06, he was averaging just 7 ppg, 2 apg on 46% FG, 38% 3FG in 20 minutes for his career. Hardly anything to exalt.

Eddie House was both a benchwarmer and journeyman. He didn't even hold value to his teams as a benchwarmer. He was on his sixth team in two years. His averages during this stretch varied greatly per team, but came out to around 6 ppg in 16 minutes.

You tell me your rotation includes three career benchwarmers, two career journey man, one decent, but slow and undersized center, one recently waiver signee, Marion and Nash and you are going to tell me that team wins 54 games and advances to game six of the Conference Finals?

I don't think so. The only player to improve of that group since leaving is Thomas, but that's more about the minutes played in Phoenix (18 mpg) vs. minutes played in Seattle (24 mpg) than anything.

I don't care if you dislike Nash, say he's overrated, ad what not so long as you back it up, but there's ZERO way any poster here can with regard to that season, unless they were so stupid at the time as to predict that team to win 50 games and advance far in the playoffs, and given that most bashing Nash after the fact are doing it because he's Steve Nash and his team was the Suns, I doubt anyone now bashing did anything but bash back then, probably saying that team couldn't even make the playoffs, let along win 54 games, the Pacific Division and two playoff series with the 6-7, 225 pound Shawn Marion, the 6-8, 220 pound Boris Diaw, the 6-8, 235 pound Tim Thomas and the 6-8, 230 pound James Jones as their frontcourt rotation.

As for Kobe, I agree with everything he says, and feel athletes get persecuted too often for telling the hard truth. Kobe's teams did suck. Smush Parker was terrible and Kwame Brown is an apathetic idiot. Shaq was playing one of his final seasons on a team constructed of morons and never weres. Star players have the right to say whether or not a player was a good fit, or even a good player.

Kobe's Lakers should have won the series vs. Phoenix in 2005-06. Blame can be laid on Kobe for failing to lead when leadership was required, and for getting pissy towards the end of game six, shooting far too much, then getting even by hardly shooting in game seven.

But overall, I'd agree that the Lakers were 6-to-8 seed teams as far as talent went. Those type of teams don't win for a reason.

[Allanon]

Context, please... Nash has one All-Star, two former All-Stars, each having failed to play up to All-Star levels for at least two seasons, and in Hill's case, like eight.

One All Star and 2 Former All-Stars compared to Kobe's 0 All Stars and 0 Former All Stars. We're comparing different seasons there but let's say this year, it's still 1 Former All Star by your counting.

Shaq as a former All Star is at least a 15-10 guy no matter what year. This is the same former All Star who won a championship 2 years ago. Even 5 years from now, he's better than Kwame Brown.

Grant Hill is another case of Former All Star who used to be a Superstar. Even right now, I would pick Grant HIll over Smush Parker.

The Phoenix bench, although not great, still looked like All-Stars compared to the Laker bench.

Nash had a great season and earned his first MVP for sure, Kobe also did great that season with less of a team.

Just because Nash had a great season, it doesn't mean Kobe didn't and vice versa. We're just comparing talent levels from previous years and Nash has always had more talent around him than Kobe post Shaq.

[balli]

Yeah, a lot of those players did suck before Nash.

If you really think Nash's MVP(s) were a joke, then thats your opinion. I don't really care.

You were talking about Raja Bell and Boris Diaw. Raja Bell was a very good player before Phoenix signed him, otherwise they would not have given him 50 million. You don't give guys 50 million if they sucked on their previous team. Diaw's strengths that season were things Nash couldn't have influenced (ie; rebounding and assists). Unless of course you feel that Diaw's rebounds and assists were actually Nash's, but the scoring table accidently gave them to Diaw.

And yes I think giving the MVP to one of the worst defensive guards in the league for doing the same things many other points guards had done, many other times, was a joke. Whether you care or not.

Pretty much Gino, you are clueless. You said Bell didn't start before Pho. Yes he did. You said Diaw couldn't get off the bench in ATL, well yes he did. (Although he had a rough time because they tried to make him play point.) I'm not going to point out all of your innacuracies, but there have been more than a few things you've said in this thread which make me think you don't even begin to have a clue about the game of basketball.

[Gino]

You were talking about Raja Bell and Boris Diaw. Raja Bell was a very good player before Phoenix signed him, otherwise they would not have given him 50 million. You don't give guys 50 million if they sucked on their previous team. Diaw's strengths that season were things Nash couldn't have influenced (ie; rebounding and assists). Unless of course you feel that Diaw's rebounds and assists were actually Nash's, but the scoring table accidently gave them to Diaw.

And yes I think giving the MVP to one of the worst defensive guards in the league for doing the same things many other points guards had done, many other times, was a joke. Whether you care or not.

Pretty much Gino, you are clueless. You said Bell didn't start before Pho. Yes he did. You said Diaw couldn't get off the bench in ATL, well yes he did. (Although he had a rough time because they tried to make him play point.) I'm not going to point out all of your innacuracies, but there have been more than a few things you've said in this thread which make me think you don't even begin to have a clue about the game of basketball.

Wow...its not every day youre given a gift like this post.

Since youre claiming how innacuarte I am, please tell me which team on this planet gave Raja Bell 50 million dollars? I know thats not a typo since you posted it twice, either.

As for the rest of your garbage, I don't need to say anything since JMarks just did it for me. :toast

Also, I didn't say Bell never started for the Jazz, I said he was a back up pg for the Jazz. Which he was (unless you want to argue that starting 30 something games for the Jazz in TWO seasons made him starter).

[JMarkJohns]

Raja Bell got 30 million, not 50 million. He didn't even get the entire MLE (they ere saving a portion to offer Finley). And Diaw's strengths stemmed LARGELY from his roll to Nash's pick. One of the reasons he hasn't been as statistically productive is his time within the pic-n-roll has been cut in half.

Balli, you're so hung up on the details you're failing to see the big picture. Sure, Bell started, but he didn't play starters minutes (under 30 per each season in Utah) and was hardly a main cog on offense. They thought so little of him they let him walk for a very reasonable rate. I'm sure they'd love to have him now. Diaw was a benchwarmer who failed to produce at any position in Atlanta, but you are correct, most of the time he was playing point. What's funny is with a simple change of scenery, he becomes a very good passer, but as a forward.

That team was constructed of capable journeymen, career benchwarmers and benchfodder. There's nothing that can be said to disprove that. Save for Nash, Marion and Thomas, who missed the most important part of the season with injury, there wasn't a proven, consistent starter in the bunch. Lots of talent, but Nash made it all work.

I think it's fair to argue his first MVP, but the second one was well deserved, IMO. Sure, other PGs had done similar, but each MVP is for that specific player, for that specific team in that specific year. History has no bearing, nor should it.

[DazedAndConfused]

Wow...its not every day youre given a gift like this post.

Since youre claiming how innacuarte I am, please tell me which team on this planet gave Raja Bell 50 million dollars? I know thats not a typo since you posted it twice, either.

As for the rest of your garbage, I don't need to say anything since JMarks just did it for me. :toast

Also, I didn't say Bell never started for the Jazz, I said he was a back up pg for the Jazz. Which he was (unless you want to argue that starting 30 something games for the Jazz in TWO seasons made him starter).

Doesn't change the fact that you don't know jack shit about what you are talking about, especially when it pertains to the Lakers. I still do not understand why someone who clearly hasn't paid much attention or watched the Lakers the last 3 seasons continues to post in these threads as if he knows more than Laker fans themselves.

And I love how you conveniently don't respond to the numerous posts that refute just about every ridiculous claim you make about Kobe and the Lakers.

[balli]

Wow...its not every day youre given a gift like this post.

Since youre claiming how innacuarte I am, please tell me which team on this planet gave Raja Bell 50 million dollars? I know thats not a typo since you posted it twice, either.

As for the rest of your garbage, I don't need to say anything since JMarks just did it for me. :toast

Also, I didn't say Bell never started for the Jazz, I said he was a back up pg for the Jazz. Which he was (unless you want to argue that starting 30 something games for the Jazz in TWO seasons made him starter).

Sorry. I am a pothead and there's a lot of strands in ol' Dude'rs head. You don't give guys 25 million for sucking on their former team. And he was not our backup PG. Ever. We had Raul Lopez backing up Arroyo. And by the time he went to phoenix he was our starting SG. Before that he was getting starters minutes exclusively as our SG. Maybe he didn't start all those games, but by the end he did and when he wasn't starting he was playing starters minutes. Maybe you'd call Manu a bench talent too.

[balli]

Raja Bell got 30 million, not 50 million. He didn't even get the entire MLE (they ere saving a portion to offer Finley). And Diaw's strengths stemmed LARGELY from his roll to Nash's pick. One of the reasons he hasn't been as statistically productive is his time within the pic-n-roll has been cut in half.

Balli, you're so hung up on the details you're failing to see the big picture. Sure, Bell started, but he didn't play starters minutes (under 30 per each season in Utah) and was hardly a main cog on offense. They thought so little of him they let him walk for a very reasonable rate. I'm sure they'd love to have him now. Diaw was a benchwarmer who failed to produce at any position in Atlanta, but you are correct, most of the time he was playing point. What's funny is with a simple change of scenery, he becomes a very good passer, but as a forward.


I'd call about 30 mpg "starters minutes" and he was as much a cog on offense as a team comprised of Arroyo, AK, Bell, Jarron Collins and whoever else would allow. What were we supposed to do, turn a team like that into the Raja Bell show? Nah, we had to work together.

And Raja Bell signed with Phoenix at 12 midnight the first day of the signing period. We loved him and everyone flipped when he left. We were on the record as saying we'd match any offer he got, but when a guy leaves at 12 midnight on the first day, there's not much we could do.

[DazedAndConfused]

I like how Laker fans want to pretend the only players they had on their team were Smush and Kwame.

What about Odom? What about Caron Butler?

Radmanovic, Walton, Vujacic, Farmar, Turiaf and BYNUM were all on the team last year, weren't they?

Stupidity at its best. This is the classic example of an argument someone would make if they just glanced at the Laker roster sheet of the last 3 years. Clearly you weren't watching the Lakers. Though I don't know what you were watching since the Celtics sucked all kinds of donkey dick as well.

[Gino]

Sorry. I am a pothead and there's a lot of strands in ol' Dude'rs head. You don't give guys 25 million for sucking on their former team. And he was not our backup PG. Ever. We had Raul Lopez backing up Arroyo. And by the time he went to phoenix he was our starting SG. Before that he was getting starters minutes exclusively as our SG. Maybe he didn't start all those games, but by the end he did and he wasn't starting he was playing starters minutes. Maybe you'd call Manu a bench talent too.

No, because Manu plays a lot more minutes than Raja Bell played for the Jazz.

I can't believe it. You DO want to argue that starting 30+ games in two seasons is a "starter". :lol

This is kind of like how D&C believes that playing 37 minutes is "sitting out for most of the game".

C'mon now. Are you the same person?

[Gino]

I'd call about 30 mpg "starters minutes" and he was as much a cog on offense as a team comprised of Arroyo, AK, Bell, Jarron Collins and whoever else would allow. What were we supposed to do, turn a team like that into the Raja Bell show? Nah, we had to work together.

And Raja Bell signed with Phoenix at 12 midnight the first day of the signing period. We loved him and everyone flipped when he left. We were on the record as saying we'd match any offer he got, but when a guy leaves at 12 midnight on the first day, there's not much we could do.

I didn't see the fifty million in there.......what was that about my innacuracy? :lol

[Gino]

Raja Bell got 30 million, not 50 million. He didn't even get the entire MLE (they ere saving a portion to offer Finley). And Diaw's strengths stemmed LARGELY from his roll to Nash's pick. One of the reasons he hasn't been as statistically productive is his time within the pic-n-roll has been cut in half.

Balli, you're so hung up on the details you're failing to see the big picture. Sure, Bell started, but he didn't play starters minutes (under 30 per each season in Utah) and was hardly a main cog on offense. They thought so little of him they let him walk for a very reasonable rate. I'm sure they'd love to have him now. Diaw was a benchwarmer who failed to produce at any position in Atlanta, but you are correct, most of the time he was playing point. What's funny is with a simple change of scenery, he becomes a very good passer, but as a forward.

That team was constructed of capable journeymen, career benchwarmers and benchfodder. There's nothing that can be said to disprove that. Save for Nash, Marion and Thomas, who missed the most important part of the season with injury, there wasn't a proven, consistent starter in the bunch. Lots of talent, but Nash made it all work.

I think it's fair to argue his first MVP, but the second one was well deserved, IMO. Sure, other PGs had done similar, but each MVP is for that specific player, for that specific team in that specific year. History has no bearing, nor should it.

Nice post. :toast

[balli]

I didn't see the fifty million in there.......what was that about my innacuracy? :lol
Why not read the thread before you post? Sorry, I forgot some numbers. You never knew anything.

Sorry. I am a pothead and there's a lot of strands in ol' Dude'rs head. You don't give guys 25 million for sucking on their former team. And he was not our backup PG. Ever. We had Raul Lopez backing up Arroyo. And by the time he went to phoenix he was our starting SG. Before that he was getting starters minutes exclusively as our SG. Maybe he didn't start all those games, but by the end he did and when he wasn't starting he was playing starters minutes. Maybe you'd call Manu a bench talent too.

[Gino]

Why not read the thread before you post? Sorry, I forgot some numbers. You never knew anything.

Oh I read it, I just still think its hilarious.

btw - When did I say that Bell was Utah's backup pg?

[balli]

btw - When did I say that Bell was Utah's backup pg?


Also, I didn't say Bell never started for the Jazz, I said he was a back up pg for the Jazz. Which he was

[Gino]

You got me there. That WAS a typo.

[Gino]

Here's what I originally said:


And Boris Diaw wasn't getting playing time on the worst team in the NBA before playing with Nash. Raja Bell was a backup guard for the Jazz.

[TheMACHINE]

WOW..i cant believe you guys are comparing the past Lakers teams with the Phoenix Suns.

Lakers -Crap.
Suns - crazy talented. Simple as that.

When Kwame was on the floor, it was pretty much 4 vs 6. He practically handed over the ball to the the opposing team.

[Matchman]

so lakers fans remember to give McGrady an excuse if he didnt make it out of the first round, ok? :toast

[DazedAndConfused]

I like how Laker fans want to pretend the only players they had on their team were Smush and Kwame.

What about Odom? What about Caron Butler?

Radmanovic, Walton, Vujacic, Farmar, Turiaf and BYNUM were all on the team last year, weren't they?


Lamar Odom - Not a reliable #2 option. Never has or will be.

Caron Butler - Did not become an All-Star until he left LA. If you watched the Lakers you'd know he just wasn't a good fit in the triangle offense alongside Kobe.

Radmanovic - Was lost in the triangle his 1st year and injured his hand while snowboarding during the All-Star break. Never got into a rhythm.

Turiaf - Was a solid BACKUP to Kwame, but still a little green and coming off heart surgery.

Vujacic - Did not make the jump from a good practice shooter to a gametime shooter until this year.

Bynum - Still just a 19 year old kid, way too raw to be effective. Didn't make a huge leap until this season.

Smush, Kwame, Walton - Do I have to say anymore about these 3?




We are waiting for your rebuttal to this lovely gem. Oh I get it, you don't want to play anymore when your dumbass gets exposed right?

[GaryJohnston]

Lamar Odom - Not a reliable #2 option. Never has or will be.

Caron Butler - Did not become an All-Star until he left LA. If you watched the Lakers you'd know he just wasn't a good fit in the triangle offense alongside Kobe.

Radmanovic - Was lost in the triangle his 1st year and injured his hand while snowboarding during the All-Star break. Never got into a rhythm.

Turiaf - Was a solid BACKUP to Kwame, but still a little green and coming off heart surgery.

Vujacic - Did not make the jump from a good practice shooter to a gametime shooter until this year.

Bynum - Still just a 19 year old kid, way too raw to be effective. Didn't make a huge leap until this season.

Smush, Kwame, Walton - Do I have to say anymore about these 3?

But I thought Kobe made all these guys good this past season????

You made a good argument in proving my earlier point that the Lakers success is more attributed to them being a collection of good players, than a team with a superstar who has carried them on his back and made them better.
:dizzy

[DazedAndConfused]

^Why can't it be both? Kobe has talent around him AND he has taken them to the next level. The same can be said of Chris Paul, unless you think David West, Tyson Chandler, and Peja are scrubs.

[Allanon]

But I thought Kobe made all these guys good this past season????

You made a good argument in proving my earlier point that the Lakers success is more attributed to them being a collection of good players, than a team with a superstar who has carried them on his back and made them better.
:dizzy

Hahah, definitely the haters. Any team that gets better can be said a) star makes them better or b) players got better by themselves

1) If Kobe's teammates don't do well, it's because Kobe's selfish
2) If Kobe's teammates do well, it's because they got better by themselves

Just great guys :toast

[J Zone]

Why persecute a guy for stating facts?


Because they're a bunch of assholes, that's why.

[Gino]

Lamar Odom - Not a reliable #2 option. Never has or will be.

Caron Butler - Did not become an All-Star until he left LA. If you watched the Lakers you'd know he just wasn't a good fit in the triangle offense alongside Kobe.

Radmanovic - Was lost in the triangle his 1st year and injured his hand while snowboarding during the All-Star break. Never got into a rhythm.

Turiaf - Was a solid BACKUP to Kwame, but still a little green and coming off heart surgery.

Vujacic - Did not make the jump from a good practice shooter to a gametime shooter until this year.

Bynum - Still just a 19 year old kid, way too raw to be effective. Didn't make a huge leap until this season.

Smush, Kwame, Walton - Do I have to say anymore about these 3?

We are waiting for your rebuttal to this lovely gem. Oh I get it, you don't want to play anymore when your dumbass gets exposed right?


Ah yes. The proverbial "you haven't responded to my post fast enough so I assume that you admit defeat".

Its an interesting predicament Laker fans have in this argument. Claiming that all of Kobe's teammates were crap last year while also claiming that those same crap players are great this year!

Also interesting that any and all player regression/struggles have been attributed to "the triangle" (Odom, Butler, Radman etc) while any player who improves owes credit to Kobe Byrant. Tell that to Caron Butler.

The fact is that in 2005, the Lakers had Odom, Butler, Mihm, Kobe, Deven George and Walton and couldn't even make the playoffs (and the west wasn't nearly as good as it is now). They dramatically underachieved down the stretch where they lost something like 19 of their last 21.

In 2006, the Lakers went up against an extremely thin Phoenix team and couldn't finish them off after having a 3-1 series lead. Kobe quits in game seven when he puts up only one shot in the second half after averaging twenty seven ATTEMPTS throughout the season.

In 2007, the Lakers started out strong (26-13 IIRC), went through some mid-season injuries and mailed in the rest of the season. Typical Kobe.

THe Lakers have flat out UNDERACHIEVED that past three seasons. And how does Kobe, the leader, handle the situation? He asks to be traded!!

[DazedAndConfused]

THe Lakers have flat out UNDERACHIEVED that past three seasons. And how does Kobe, the leader, handle the situation? He asks to be traded!!

This debate is over. You have clearly exposed yourself as a complete fraud and tool with that statement.

[Gino]

This debate is over. You have clearly exposed yourself as a complete fraud and tool with that statement.

Thats all you got?

So you believe the Lakers shouldn't have made the playoffs in 05, shouldn't have defeated Phoenix in 06 after having a 3-1 series lead, and shouldn't have done any better than a seven seed last year?

Because if thats true, I got to tell you that Pau Gasol and Derek Fisher aren't miracle workers.

[DazedAndConfused]

Yes that's all I have. Nothing more needs to be said, you've done the damage all by yourself.

[O-Factor]

Kobe said nothing of the caliber of what Shaq has said about former teammates and coaches. Fucking douche Shaq.

[balli]

The fact is that in 2005, the Lakers had Odom, Butler, Mihm, Kobe, Deven George and Walton and couldn't even make the playoffs (and the west wasn't
nearly as good as it is now). They dramatically underachieved down the stretch where they lost something like 19 of their last 21.

Listen to what you're saying? Mihm? George? A rookie Walton? You didn't even mention Tierre Brown, Kareem Rush and Jumaine Jones. Yeah, how could a team like that miss the playoffs? Jesus fucking christ. That 04-05 Lakers squad was one of the shittiest supporting casts in recent NBA history and you throw Kobe under the bus for it. I could care less if Odom and Butler were there. That's a team built to go nowhere. Time to get real man.

[kingmalaki]

Listen to what you're saying? Mihm? George? A rookie Walton? You didn't even mention Tierre Brown, Kareem Rush and Jumaine Jones. Yeah, how could a team like that miss the playoffs? Jesus fucking christ. That 04-05 Lakers squad was one of the shittiest supporting casts in recent NBA history and you throw Kobe under the bus for it. I could care less if Odom and Butler were there. That's a team built to go nowhere. Time to get real man.

The Memphis Grizz made the playoffs that season, with Gasol missing 26 games. Their overall team wasn't much better, especially considering Kobe is a superstar and none of the players on that team were considered to be one.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MEM/2005.html

Butler and Odom is enough quality help. I can think of dozens of other greats that have carried worse teams to the postseason.

[Findog]

What Nash did that season Amare was out was amazing, but the cupboard wasn't as bare as JMark is making it out to be. That team still had some really good players. Diaw was awesome that year, whereas he hasn't been the same since because he couldn't find a role or a groove with Amare back and then with the addition of Hill. Barbosa really came into his own as that season went along, and gave them another weapon in the open court with his speed. Thomas was the perfect fit for that offense, he helped stretched opposing defenses with his 3-point shooting ability. Avery had to bench Dampier in the conference Finals and negate some of our rebounding advantage because there was nobody for him to guard with Thomas in there. Marion was still Marion. Raja Bell had "only" worked himself into an elite perimeter defender along with developing a reliable 3-point shot.

[Gino]

Listen to what you're saying? Mihm? George? A rookie Walton? You didn't even mention Tierre Brown, Kareem Rush and Jumaine Jones. Yeah, how could a team like that miss the playoffs? Jesus fucking christ. That 04-05 Lakers squad was one of the shittiest supporting casts in recent NBA history and you throw Kobe under the bus for it. I could care less if Odom and Butler were there. That's a team built to go nowhere. Time to get real man.

Walton wasn't a rookie. Man, if youre going to accuse me of being inaccurate, maybe you should check your facts more before posting.

Are you suuuuure youre not DazedAndConfused in disguise? He's the only other person who posts misinformation so quickly.

[Medvedenko]

The 04 and 05 season Lamar missed the last 20 games.....also Caron missed some time as well as Kobe....that team was going nowhere and had Tomojonovich and a different system as well. Oh and Brian Grant was hurt as well.

[DazedAndConfused]

At this point I couldn't give two shits about the past 3 Laker seasons. Kobe is winning that MVP trophy, Lakers are #1 in the WC, and we have HCA all the way until the Finals (assuming BOS or DET makes it). Things are looking up for the Lakers......

[TDMVPDPOY]

dont forget derek fisher, he also says hi at the end of the tunnel...

seriously, they have players who have played together for a few seasons now, compared to CP3 who had 2 seasons where it looked like they were on paced to be in teh playoffs, only to be hampered by injuries to players in there starting 5 who were either borderline 1 demensional players...

[Medvedenko]

I forgot how CP3 plays defense for all of those players. He's definitely the truth.

[JMarkJohns]

What Nash did that season Amare was out was amazing, but the cupboard wasn't as bare as JMark is making it out to be. That team still had some really good players. Diaw was awesome that year, whereas he hasn't been the same since because he couldn't find a role or a groove with Amare back and then with the addition of Hill. Barbosa really came into his own as that season went along, and gave them another weapon in the open court with his speed. Thomas was the perfect fit for that offense, he helped stretched opposing defenses with his 3-point shooting ability. Avery had to bench Dampier in the conference Finals and negate some of our rebounding advantage because there was nobody for him to guard with Thomas in there. Marion was still Marion. Raja Bell had "only" worked himself into an elite perimeter defender along with developing a reliable 3-point shot.

I was never saying there wasn't talent, only that it was largely troubled, unproven or unreliable entering each talents tenure with the Suns. Many had career years. A few others had renaissance seasons. Nobody can dispute that they had some talent, but I'm saying Nash was the one who pulled it together, and, that if you would have seen the roster in the preseason, you'd have suspected 45ish wins and a first-round exit. True, players stepped up, but Nash helped them learn now. That's the biggest difference between any of the sans-Shaq, Kobe-led Lakers and the 05-06 Suns. Whereas Kobe couldn't quite maximize potential, and he had plenty the year they wound up in the lottery, Nash always seems to get the most out of his teammates.