Flopping

[magui86770]

It aggravates me to no end that this has become a national issue. On Mike and Mike, Dan Patrick, etc... You cannot lose to a team in a series solely because of flopping. Also, I appreciate those Suns fans on their forum who at least acknowledge this, but sadly its a minority.

Also, I pull this off the Sun forum(via buttsR4rebounding). Interesting stats.
http://arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showthread.php?t=110908


"The stats for charges drawn for the regular season are out. For all of Shaq's complaining about the floppers winning the first one it is interesting that Phoenix drew more charges than San Antonio and that Manu Ginobili drew fewer charges than Steve Nash, Raja Bell, and Grant Hill.


Those in bold denote playoff teams or players in playoff teams.

Top Ten list for Offensive Fouls drawn:

1. Derek Fisher (54)
2. Andrew Bogut (53)
3. Mikki Moore (51)
4, 5 Kyle Lowry, Joel Pryzbilla (47)
6. Allen Iverson (46)
7. Jermaine O'Neal (45)
8, 9, 10. Mike Dunleavy, Monta Ellis, Luis Scola (42)

Team listings

1. Indiana - 210
2. Memphis - 194
3. Milwaukee - 189
4. Golden State - 188
5. Chicago - 187
6. Utah - 183
7. Portland - 180
8. Boston - 178
9. Phoenix - 173
10. Sacramento - 166
11. San Antonio - 158
12. LA Lakers - 150
13. Orlando - 148
14. Dallas - 148
15. New Jersey - 147
16. Denver - 147
17. Miami - 144
18. Houston - 142
19. Toronto - 140
20. Charlotte - 128
21. LA Clippers - 123
22. Cleveland - 122
23. Philadelphia - 121
24. Washington - 117
25. New york - 117
26. Minnesota - 110
27. Atlanta - 107
28. Seattle - 106
29. New Orleans - 97
30. Detroit - 87



Spurs notables:
Fabricio Oberton (33)
Bruce Bowen (28)
Manu Ginobili (27)
Jacques Vaughn (14)
Rest of team (56)


Suns notables:
Steve Nash (34)
Raja Bell (31)
Grant Hill (30)
Boris Diaw (20)
Leandro Barbosa (15)
Brian Skinner (11)
Rest of team (32)"

[mojorizen7]

1st of all taking charges doesn't equal flopping:
Phoenix draws a lot of charges from basically two guys (Nash/Bell). While Bell is a flopper that'll use his drama skills to draw a whistle Nash is a guy that will actually try to get position,hold his ground and take a hit to draw the offensive foul.
I'm surprised to see Hill so high on that list.
Manu doesn't want to take a hit, his act is worse than Bell's.
Bowen?....well as a fan of basketball i can appreciate his effort and committment to defense.....but he's VERY GOOD at using body language and position in order to draw the O foul.
I do think that when comparing the two teams that the SPURS are the team that employs the flopping technique more often than the SUNS.
The SUNS have been playing undersized for years and used the charge in order to compensate for the lack of a defensive big man in the middle.
IMO of course.
Umberto just can't guard anybody so he's learned the euro ways of defense.

[lebomb]

Pwnt!!!!!

[Cry Havoc]

1st of all taking charges doesn't equal flopping:
Phoenix draws a lot of charges from basically two guys (Nash/Bell). While Bell is a flopper that'll use his drama skills to draw a whistle Nash is a guy that will actually try to get position,hold his ground and take a hit to draw the offensive foul.
I'm surprised to see Hill so high on that list.
Manu doesn't want to take a hit, his act is worse than Bell's.
Bowen?....well as a fan of basketball i can appreciate his effort and committment to defense.....but he's VERY GOOD at using body language and position in order to draw the O foul.
I do think that when comparing the two teams that the SPURS are the team that employs the flopping technique more often than the SUNS.
The SUNS have been playing undersized for years and used the charge in order to compensate for the lack of a defensive big man in the middle.
IMO of course.
Umberto just can't guard anybody so he's learned the euro ways of defense.

That's the point. It's not that the Suns are horrible floppers, it's that EVERY team employs this strategy. Even Ben Wallace fell over in the 05 Finals and drew a charge from it, and here's the kicker: He was past the 3 point line at the time.

Yet time and time again, the Spurs are pointed to as the team that does it the most, as being consistently over the top, and at times blatantly attempting to win games through "flopping". Meaning if Shaq barrels into the lane, and Oberto falls over, it's a flop.

And that's hogwash. Basketball is a game of fundamentals and control. If you're going into the lane and you have no control over your body, you SHOULD HAVE an offensive foul called on you.

Perhaps if officials awarded charges even if the defender stayed upright, we'd see fewer bodies on the court. But they don't. You have to hit the deck to get a call. So it's no surprise that players are doing just that.

[mojorizen7]

I expect the NBA to take a closer look at those players that are taking advantage of the flop by either instructing their officials to look for it, or by making some type of rule change to discourage the constant flopping thats going on.
Issue a technical foul for what the officials deem as a flop.
Educate them on what is a flop. Something has to be done.

[Jimcs50]

Flopping is no different than any sport where players use any ploy they can to gain an advantage.

ie. A NFL player trapping a caught ball and showing it to refs afterwards like he caught the ball. An outfielder doing the same thing. A catcher framing a pitch to sell the strike instead of a ball. A hockey player trying to sell a goal when he knows that he accidently kicked the puck into the net.

Flopping is part of basketball.....get over it.

[rascal]

Not all charge calls are on flops. Some guys are better at positioning for charge calls and others like Manu try to flop their way to a charge call.

[rascal]

I expect the NBA to take a closer look at those players that are taking advantage of the flop by either instructing their officials to look for it, or by making some type of rule change to discourage the constant flopping thats going on.
Issue a technical foul for what the officials deem as a flop.
Educate them on what is a flop. Something has to be done.

I like the technical foul idea for any unneccesary flop. That will put a stop to it.

[bus driver]

the best flop of all is:

[BlackSwordsMan]

That utah jazz flop cost houston a game.
So it does work

[bus driver]

yp4UF4Av_g0

[bus driver]

i like it when he falls then throws his hands back :lol


:flag::lobt2::flag:

[Solid D]

D-Fish and Bogut have been on my top-5 list of floppers prior to the above list being posted, so it's no surprise to see them 1 and 2. There is a correlation because over time, players have learned to "shine a light" on contact with the refs. Some are just more proactive at it...and those are the ones that I think are bad for the game.

For those who think Vlade Divac brought flopping to the NBA, they are either young and only go back that far in their fanhood or they have a bad memory. Before Vlade there was Bill Laimbeer, Rodman, Doc Rivers...plus John Stockton and Karl Malone pre-Vlade. Before them there was Lloyd Free and Jerry Sichting, Don Chaney and King flopper himself, Danny Ainge. I'm a former Celts fan so I had the benefit of watching some good flops from Bailey Howell, Don Nelson and Hondo Havlicek.

It's true that more players flop nowadays. Much moreso than in the early days of the NBA, but it's not new.

[cornbread]

I expect the NBA to take a closer look at those players that are taking advantage of the flop by either instructing their officials to look for it, or by making some type of rule change to discourage the constant flopping thats going on.
Issue a technical foul for what the officials deem as a flop.
Educate them on what is a flop. Something has to be done.

It looks like s0ns fans are taking a page from the Cuban book. If you can't beat 'em, get the rules changed.

[Cherry]

Manu doesn't want to take a hit, his act is worse than Bell's.


Are you talking about El Contusion, rigth? :rolleyes

[Jimcs50]

yp4UF4Av_g0


Nash flopped big time there.

[mojorizen7]

Whatever.

[magui86770]

I agree that AK47 flop, but that was also a foul by Scola. AK sold it more for the ref's benefits. You flop to sell a foul, usually an offensive foul, so the stats prove that neither the Spurs or Suns are getting those calls often as everyone thinks. Spurs are the champs, so naturally everyone thinks we are floppers.

I wonder if the stats only include charges or all types of offensive fouls.

[Solid D]

I wonder if the stats only include charges or all types of offensive fouls.

Well the stat you posted says "Offensive Fouls drawn".

[ancestron]

Nash did flop when Horry Hip-checked him. Yes Nash got knocked on his ass, but you can clearly see him throw his arms back to add to the drama, because we all know that foul could've killed him, man!!

[magui86770]

Solid D, I am an Aggie. That's my excuse! :lol

[Cry Havoc]

Whatever.

It's okay. I would probably be against flopping if my players had no body control, too.

Wait... no I wouldn't. :lmao

[mojorizen7]

Nash did flop when Horry Hip-checked him. Yes Nash got knocked on his ass, but you can clearly see him throw his arms back to add to the drama, because we all know that foul could've killed him, man!!

but.....but....but.....:lol

[fyatuk]

For those who think Vlade Divac brought flopping to the NBA, they are either young and only go back that far in their fanhood or they have a bad memory. Before Vlade there was Bill Laimbeer, Rodman, Doc Rivers...plus John Stockton and Karl Malone pre-Vlade. Before them there was Lloyd Free and Jerry Sichting, Don Chaney and King flopper himself, Danny Ainge. I'm a former Celts fan so I had the benefit of watching some good flops from Bailey Howell, Don Nelson and Hondo Havlicek.


I have fond memories of watching Doc Rivers and John Stockton flop. I hated stockton for his hold-a-defensive-player-then-flop-when-they-move-their-arm-and-get-a-foul-called-on-nearly-every-inbounds-play. He was a true master.

[MrChug]

That's the point. It's not that the Suns are horrible floppers, it's that EVERY team employs this strategy.

Exactly, but to take it even FURTHER every SPORT employs this strategy! Who here would call a boxer a wuss (which floppers are called indirectly) when he holds after getting hit. It's a defense mechanism and of the most fundamentally sound practices of the sport. Would the avid boxing purist get mad at someone who clinched every once in a while? No, because he would KNOW that.

Now would the novice boxing fan get angry if there were clinching/holding during a fight? Sure, because they knew nothing about the sport.

That's why I consider someone who doesn't understand/appreciate bringing attention to an offensive foul (a.k.a. FLOP) a novice basketball fan. Deal with it.

[WalterBenitez]

1st of all taking charges doesn't equal flopping:
Phoenix draws a lot of charges from basically two guys (Nash/Bell). While Bell is a flopper that'll use his drama skills to draw a whistle Nash is a guy that will actually try to get position,hold his ground and take a hit to draw the offensive foul.
I'm surprised to see Hill so high on that list.
Manu doesn't want to take a hit, his act is worse than Bell's.
Bowen?....well as a fan of basketball i can appreciate his effort and committment to defense.....but he's VERY GOOD at using body language and position in order to draw the O foul.
I do think that when comparing the two teams that the SPURS are the team that employs the flopping technique more often than the SUNS.
The SUNS have been playing undersized for years and used the charge in order to compensate for the lack of a defensive big man in the middle.
IMO of course.
Umberto just can't guard anybody so he's learned the euro ways of defense.

hmmmmm.... phx's charges are pure charges, SAS' charges are flopping, good reasoning :nerd

[pooh]

Reggie was the best at doing it and getting away with it. And that YouTube clip...that was highway robbery, that turned the whole series.

[mojorizen7]

hmmmmm.... phx's charges are pure charges, SAS' charges are flopping, good reasoning :nerd

Nash's charges are "pure charges" actually. Bell's are not.
Ginobli's are not. Is that better?:reading

[FromWayDowntown]

And that YouTube clip...that was highway robbery, that turned the whole series.

It changed the series only because the Suns players got off the bench and broke a rule that had been in existence for more than 10 years -- one that had a specific and certain penalty for its violation.

You should check yourself -- your Spurs hatred is showing.

:bang

never mind. . . .

[Solid D]

Nash's charges are "pure charges" actually. Bell's are not.
Ginobli's are not. Is that better?:reading

Like a child who's daddy does no wrong and can beat up any other dad.

[FromWayDowntown]

Nash's charges are "pure charges" actually. Bell's are not.
Ginobli's are not. Is that better?:reading

Ginobili takes his fair share of legitimate contact without getting calls. It's undoubtedly a price he pays for the flopping he does. But it's impossible to deny that he does take a substantial amount of contact during the course of a game.

And he does take pure charges on many occasions, too. It's not as if Manu is some incapable defender who just flops. He does flop, mind you, but that's certainly not what makes him a great player.

[Strike]

Nash's charges are "pure charges" actually. Bell's are not.
Ginobli's are not. Is that better?:reading

Wow. Do you have a picture of Nash in your wallet with a halo taped to his head?

[O-Factor]

1st of all taking charges doesn't equal flopping:
Phoenix draws a lot of charges from basically two guys (Nash/Bell). While Bell is a flopper that'll use his drama skills to draw a whistle Nash is a guy that will actually try to get position,hold his ground and take a hit to draw the offensive foul.
I'm surprised to see Hill so high on that list.
Manu doesn't want to take a hit, his act is worse than Bell's.
Bowen?....well as a fan of basketball i can appreciate his effort and committment to defense.....but he's VERY GOOD at using body language and position in order to draw the O foul.
I do think that when comparing the two teams that the SPURS are the team that employs the flopping technique more often than the SUNS.
The SUNS have been playing undersized for years and used the charge in order to compensate for the lack of a defensive big man in the middle.
IMO of course.
Umberto just can't guard anybody so he's learned the euro ways of defense.

1st of all, dont' try to defend that Nash isnt a flopper. I mean really.

[O-Factor]

yp4UF4Av_g0

Ahh, Nash's flop. Classic. Arms thrown out for the dramatic effect and all........Good times.

[mojorizen7]

Wow. Do you have a picture of Nash in your wallet with a halo taped to his head?

Yeah,it's the one that says "bad mutherfucker" on it.
You wanna see it?

[Cry Havoc]

Yeah,it's the one that says "ba mutherfucker" on it.
You wanna see it?

Fixed.

[mojorizen7]

http://www.pulpfiction.com/images/wallets/tan1.jpg

[BonnerDynasty]

Bring back handchecking, toughness, and defense into the league.

Until then, stfu and quit crying azsportsfan nubs.

[mojorizen7]

Bring back handchecking, toughness, and defense into the league.

Until then, stfu and quit crying azsportsfan nubs.

I'm all for it. Just get rid of the flopping.:toast

[BonnerDynasty]

I'm all for it. Just get rid of the flopping.:toast

I have to be honest. Flopping is lame. It's okay here or there and damn I love Oberto when he gives a game changing flop, but when everyone is doing it almost every other play it is ruining the game.

[mojorizen7]

And these officials just keep falling for it. I like when a guy flops and the official keeps his whistle tucked and give's the two-armed gesture to "get up and get back on defense you idiot." I forget which zebra used to do that a lot.

[O-Factor]

And these officials just keep falling for it. I like when a guy flops and the official keeps his whistle tucked and give's the two-armed gesture to "get up and get back on defense you idiot." I forget which zebra used to do that a lot.

So do you believe this is the reason the Suns lost game 1 & 2?

[mojorizen7]

So do you believe this is the reason the Suns lost game 1 & 2?

Of course not. SUNS lost game 1 by not intentionally fouling up 3.(D'Antoni)
SUNS lost game 2 because they mentally folded under S.A.'s 2nd half defensive pressure without being able to
a)regain their composure(D'Antoni)
b)get stops on defense themselves(nothing new)

[Solid D]

http://greentreegazette.com/uploads/cathy.jpg
Phoenix Chatty Cathy
Just pull my string and hear 8 different sentences including:
"That Ginobili is a big flopper."
"We're better than the Spurs"
"Robert Horry is a dirty player"
"All the Spurs do is flop"
"Flop, flop, flop..."
and more

[carina_gino20]

http://greentreegazette.com/uploads/cathy.jpg
Phoenix Chatty Cathy
Just pull my string and hear 8 different sentences including:
"That Ginobili is a big flopper."
"We're better than the Spurs"
"Robert Horry is a dirty player"
"All the Spurs do is flop"
"Flop, flop, flop..."
and more

:lmao :lmao :lmao

You forgot, "Tim Duncan is a crying bitch."

[O-Factor]

Of course not. SUNS lost game 1 by not intentionally fouling up 3.(D'Antoni)
SUNS lost game 2 because they mentally folded under S.A.'s 2nd half defensive pressure without being able to
a)regain their composure(D'Antoni)
b)get stops on defense themselves(nothing new)

So then suns flopping and spurs flopping are a non-issue then. Why bitch about it?

[mojorizen7]

So then suns flopping and spurs flopping are a non-issue then. Why bitch about it?

:sleep Ok Sgt Hulka you go ahead and pretend that flopping isn't a league wide problem. Then you want to add that just because Ginobli's flopping didn't win the game for ya that i have to like it? Ginobli's "technique" is unmistakable at times....like so many others in the league.

[O-Factor]

:sleep Ok Sgt Hulka you go ahead and pretend that flopping isn't a league wide problem and that just because Ginobli's flopping didn't win the game for ya that i have to like it.

I like the way you act as if your team doesn't do it. Oh, Im sorry, they are "pure" :lol You know I think you don't really watch the games.

Suns flopping is well documented here on this forum. Im sure you've seen the stats and youtube clips(the Shaq one from game 1 was hilarious)

[milkyway21]

Flopping is an ART.

[GSH]

1st of all taking charges doesn't equal flopping:
Phoenix draws a lot of charges from basically two guys (Nash/Bell). While Bell is a flopper that'll use his drama skills to draw a whistle Nash is a guy that will actually try to get position,hold his ground and take a hit to draw the offensive foul.
I'm surprised to see Hill so high on that list.
Manu doesn't want to take a hit, his act is worse than Bell's.
Bowen?....well as a fan of basketball i can appreciate his effort and committment to defense.....but he's VERY GOOD at using body language and position in order to draw the O foul.
I do think that when comparing the two teams that the SPURS are the team that employs the flopping technique more often than the SUNS.
The SUNS have been playing undersized for years and used the charge in order to compensate for the lack of a defensive big man in the middle.
IMO of course.
Umberto just can't guard anybody so he's learned the euro ways of defense.


Let's see... the Spurs are so single-minded about defense that they are often accused of being "boring". The Suns have been among the highest-scoring teams in the league for years, because they say "fuck defense" and run-and-gun for 48 minutes.

And yet the no-defense Suns are capable of drawing more charges than the Spurs, who you say are the most prolific floppers in the league. Wouldn't you think that a team that focuses on the defensive end of the court AND flops more than any other team in the league, would show a little more results for their efforts?

What you're saying is that the Spurs flop more than any other team, and they aren't smart enough to realize that it isnt' giving them any advantage?

This has to be some kind of a late April Fool's joke. No one... not even a devoted Suns homer... could be that fucking ignorant. Could they?

[mojorizen7]

Flopping is an ART.

It ought to be a "lost art."

[mojorizen7]

Let's see... the Spurs are so single-minded about defense that they are often accused of being "boring". The Suns have been among the highest-scoring teams in the league for years, because they say "fuck defense" and run-and-gun for 48 minutes.

And yet the no-defense Suns are capable of drawing more charges than the Spurs, who you say are the most prolific floppers in the league. Wouldn't you think that a team that focuses on the defensive end of the court AND flops more than any other team in the league, would show a little more results for their efforts?

What you're saying is that the Spurs flop more than any other team, and they aren't smart enough to realize that it isnt' giving them any advantage?

This has to be some kind of a late April Fool's joke. No one... not even a devoted Suns homer... could be that fucking ignorant. Could they?

:readingNo thats not my claim. Dude,my claim is that ALL teams use it, but that the SPURS use it more often than most(including the SUNS)....thats all.
Show me a SUNS homer & i'll show you a SPURS homer.
Once again, drawing charges does not=flopping.
I'm arguing a point that's obviously relative to the colors we wear on game night.

[diego]

:readingNo thats not my claim. Dude,my claim is that ALL teams use it, but that the SPURS use it more often than most(including the SUNS)....thats all.
Show me a SUNS homer & i'll show you a SPURS homer.
Once again, drawing charges does not=flopping.
I'm arguing a point that's obviously relative to the colors we wear on game night.

i dont have the link, but im sure it will come up on google... the nba has a skills tape for rookies and refs, and guess who they used to teach what a charge is? i dont remember if that was 04 or 05 but go look it up, manu has "textbook" technique. the celtics also had a vid of him taking hard fouls and just getting up and sinking the freethrows, another good lesson for the suns.

you're right, drawing charges isnt the same as flopping. but from simply seeing games, i can see the suns flop just as much as the spurs do, and often with much worse technique. amare almost injured nash in that magic game, and it was really weak to see nash kick felton, he could have ruined his career. at least make it look questionable instead of just turning and kicking like that. :stirpot:

[ambchang]

:readingNo thats not my claim. Dude,my claim is that ALL teams use it, but that the SPURS use it more often than most(including the SUNS)....thats all.

Really? How? Guess what? I disagree, I claim that ALL teams use it, but the Suns use it more often than most (including the SPURS).

[SAGambler]

While Bell is a flopper that'll use his drama skills to draw a whistle Nash is a guy that will actually try to get position,hold his ground and take a hit to draw the offensive foul.

I'll agree that Nash usually does take the real charge, he isn't beyond flopping himself. Just look at the end of game 2 and tell me that wasn't a flop trying to get a call on Ginobili. Suns damn lucky they didn't call one on Nash, send the Spurs to the line and let them retain the ball. I think that's what it is if the foul occurs before the ball has been inbounded?