80s, 90s, or 2000s defense

[stretch]

I keep insisting that 90s and 2000s defense is better than 80's defense, but a friend of mine insists otherwise. here was my opinion.

Team defense was probably better through the entire league in the 80s due to better fundamentals, and less teams, so the teams that did exist were able to be more stacked, and there werent as many players around the league that simply lack talent but are needed to fill roster spots. but the offensive game was a lot different and was based on a lot more movement. defense in the 80's was judged more by steals, blocks, and outscoring their opponents, putting more pressure on their offense, often resulting in more forced bad shots and such. nowadays, steals and blocks are considered weak defensive stats, as true defense is judged more by percentages and points allowed, and shots allowed. stategy in the 90's and 2000's are far superior as well.

and if you compare the best teams from the 80's, 90's, and 2000's, Duncan's Spurs and Jordan's Bulls by far have the best defense in terms of both team defense, and individual defense. Or the Shaq/Kobe Lakers. Or the Larry Brown Pistons. No way in hell does the 80's Lakers or Celtics even come CLOSE to those teams defensively. Shoot, they weren't even close to the Bad Boy Pistons, which really started the era of how defense truly wins championships.

The Suns of recent years would fit perfectly in the 80s. Run and gun offense, and their defense is based mainly on steals, blocks, and outshooting their opponents to force bad shots. From time to time, they can stop their opponents when the game slows down, but against the truly good defensive teams and efficient/smart offensive teams, it doesn't work in a 7 game series. But because they can stomp on shitty teams, their defensive stats actually ended up looking quite solid, when in reality, it sucks.

Crap, I meant to make this a poll, but i cannot delete threads. Oh well...

Opinions on this matter?

[JamStone]

I've heard the argument before and I don't quite understand it. People will say defense was better in the 80s and then automatically reference the Bad Boy Pistons. But, those Pistons were really the only team back then that played that type of defense. Teams in the 80s were averaging 110-115 ppg on 48-50% shooting. That was the norm. Defense got tougher with the Bad Boys and then with Chicago and the Knicks of the early 90s. But, in general defense in the NBA in the 1980s wasn't as tough as it later became.

[monosylab1k]

From what little I actually remember and what I see on classic sports these days, which admittedly isn't all that much, it seems like on-ball defense was a little better back then (probably due to the hand check, but there seemed to be a lot less matador acts going on back then), and down in the post everyone got hacked to shit with no calls ever.

But as far as midrange shooting and "team defense", IMO it was pure shit. Bunch of guys watching each other shoot jumpers for a couple hours. Anybody with a good midrange game could kill in the 80's. Although penetration & post play was probably more difficult.

[xtremesteven33]

i think alot of it has to do with individual player conditioning. if you look at how thin the players were back then compared to now its quite a difference. the more body mass you have as a team the better body coverage youll cover against a team. compare the stars now to the stars then as it compares to body mass...

Lebron James to Dominque Wilkins
Kobe Bryant to Michael Jordan....... jordan was a twig
Hakeem or David Robinson to Dwight Howard
Isaiah Thomas to Chauncey Billups or Deron Williams....

[stretch]

I've heard the argument before and I don't quite understand it. People will say defense was better in the 80s and then automatically reference the Bad Boy Pistons. But, those Pistons were really the only team back then that played that type of defense. Teams in the 80s were averaging 110-115 ppg on 48-50% shooting. That was the norm. Defense got tougher with the Bad Boys and then with Chicago and the Knicks of the early 90s. But, in general defense in the NBA in the 1980s wasn't as tough as it later became.

I agree completely.

And I think defensive eras didn't follow decades. as you say, the Bad Boy's defense was in the 80s, but was the only team to play like that in the 80s. I'd say defensive eras went from mid 70s to mid 80s, then the bad boy pistons changed it in the late 80s to late 90s with suffocating defenses, and then entered teams like the Lakers, Spurs, and Pistons who would simply suffocate and shut their opponents down when it counted and played a slower type offense, limiting opponents offensive opportunities, which runs into today.

[stretch]

But as far as midrange shooting and "team defense", IMO it was pure shit. Bunch of guys watching each other shoot jumpers for a couple hours.

agreed. open jumpers all day. not even an attempt to contest them. not to mention all that hacking, hand checking, and shit they let go on as you mentioned.

another thing to consider... defensive stats are far greater today, despite rules being geared toward helping offenses out, by outruling stuff like hand checking, putting in the cylinder, etc... where as in the 80's, defensive stats sucked, but you were allowed to completely mutilate your opponents. doesnt that say something? if you put the Spurs or Pistons of today back in the 80s with those rules and hacking allowed, their defense would be so fucking ridiculous... and people talk about zone being allowed... well the Spurs and Pistons play their best defense when running man-to-man defense, and double teams with extremely smart rotations. defensive systems today are FAR ahead of any system used in the 80s.

[Cry Havoc]

I keep insisting that 90s and 2000s defense is better than 80's defense, but a friend of mine insists otherwise. here was my opinion.

Team defense was probably better through the entire league in the 80s due to better fundamentals, and less teams, so the teams that did exist were able to be more stacked, and there werent as many players around the league that simply lack talent but are needed to fill roster spots. but the offensive game was a lot different and was based on a lot more movement. defense in the 80's was judged more by steals, blocks, and outscoring their opponents, putting more pressure on their offense, often resulting in more forced bad shots and such. nowadays, steals and blocks are considered weak defensive stats, as true defense is judged more by percentages and points allowed, and shots allowed. stategy in the 90's and 2000's are far superior as well.

and if you compare the best teams from the 80's, 90's, and 2000's, Duncan's Spurs and Jordan's Bulls by far have the best defense in terms of both team defense, and individual defense. Or the Shaq/Kobe Lakers. Or the Larry Brown Pistons. No way in hell does the 80's Lakers or Celtics even come CLOSE to those teams defensively. Shoot, they weren't even close to the Bad Boy Pistons, which really started the era of how defense truly wins championships.

The Suns of recent years would fit perfectly in the 80s. Run and gun offense, and their defense is based mainly on steals, blocks, and outshooting their opponents to force bad shots. From time to time, they can stop their opponents when the game slows down, but against the truly good defensive teams and efficient/smart offensive teams, it doesn't work in a 7 game series. But because they can stomp on shitty teams, their defensive stats actually ended up looking quite solid, when in reality, it sucks.

Crap, I meant to make this a poll, but i cannot delete threads. Oh well...

Opinions on this matter?

I've been saying this ever since I first came to Spurstalk. People think the defense was great in the 80s because they think of that as a legendary era of basketball. The new wave of defending and playing tight as a team for a full 48 minutes is simply unparalleled.

This could also help to explain why shooting percentages are slightly down, because so much energy is being spent on defense now, where in the past it was an all-offensive showcase. Playing good defense is tiring -- playing it for a full game, and you have to be in damn fine physical condition to have any lift at all left to your jumper by the end of the fourth quarter.

I think if Jordan's Bulls or Duncan's Spurs got ahold of the 80s Lakers and Celtics, they would win handily. Magic's offense never faced a D that really, cohesively, as a whole, knew how to perform consistently.


compare the stars now to the stars then as it compares to body mass...

I'm not so sure about this. Tim Duncan is by no means a bodybuilder, and yet he holds his own (and more) in today's NBA. Dirk is pretty skinny, and I am positive that if D-Rob was a young guy, he would simply dominate in today's NBA.

[xtremesteven33]

I've been saying this ever since I first came to Spurstalk. People think the defense was great in the 80s because they think of that as a legendary era of basketball. The new wave of defending and playing tight as a team for a full 48 minutes is simply unparalleled.

This could also help to explain why shooting percentages are slightly down, because so much energy is being spent on defense now, where in the past it was an all-offensive showcase. Playing good defense is tiring -- playing it for a full game, and you have to be in damn fine physical condition to have any lift at all left to your jumper by the end of the fourth quarter.

I think if Jordan's Bulls or Duncan's Spurs got ahold of the 80s Lakers and Celtics, they would win handily. Magic's offense never faced a D that really, cohesively, as a whole, knew how to perform consistently.



I'm not so sure about this. Tim Duncan is by no means a bodybuilder, and yet he holds his own (and more) in today's NBA.


i am speaking of the majority not the minority

[JamStone]

i think alot of it has to do with individual player conditioning. if you look at how thin the players were back then compared to now its quite a difference. the more body mass you have as a team the better body coverage youll cover against a team. compare the stars now to the stars then as it compares to body mass...

Lebron James to Dominque Wilkins
Kobe Bryant to Michael Jordan....... jordan was a twig
Hakeem or David Robinson to Dwight Howard
Isaiah Thomas to Chauncey Billups or Deron Williams....

LeBron is a freak of nature. He's much bigger than the average small forward even in today's game. Dominique Wilkins is closer to the norm of small forwards today.

Chris Paul and Allen Iverson compare favorably to Isiah Thomas' body mass.

Again, Billups and Deron Williams are the exceptions, not the norm.

Kobe Bryant is right about the same weight as MJ played most of his career. Kobe is currently around 205. Jordan played at about 195-210 depending on what part of his career you're talking about.

I'm sure that overall, the body mass of today's players is greater than back then, but I don't think it's as drastic as the examples you provide.

[Troll_Dynasty]

the 90's was the toughest defensive decade without a doubt.

[spurms]

i think alot of it has to do with individual player conditioning. if you look at how thin the players were back then compared to now its quite a difference. the more body mass you have as a team the better body coverage youll cover against a team. compare the stars now to the stars then as it compares to body mass...

Lebron James to Dominque Wilkins
Kobe Bryant to Michael Jordan....... jordan was a twig
Hakeem or David Robinson to Dwight Howard
Isaiah Thomas to Chauncey Billups or Deron Williams....

Yeah i need alot of clarification on this statement especially the jordan is a twig part, shows how much you know about basketball, as jordan generally outweights kobe, and is a tougher and more athletic player, pls do explain else we will leave to it as you being a moron.

[Cry Havoc]

i am speaking of the majority not the minority

Fine, but even so, how could you possibly list David Robinson as a rationale for players being bigger -today-? D-Rob was one of the most sculpted individuals in NBA history. Dude looked like it was cut from a Neoclassical sculpture.

[stretch]

I think if Jordan's Bulls or Duncan's Spurs got ahold of the 80s Lakers and Celtics, they would win handily. Magic's offense never faced a D that really, cohesively, as a whole, knew how to perform consistently.

i couldn't agree more with your entire post, especially this point

[JamStone]

Magic did face a defense like that in the 1992 NBA Finals and those Bulls really frustrated Magic and the Lakers offense.

[stretch]

Magic did face a defense like that in the 1992 NBA Finals and those Bulls really frustrated Magic and the Lakers offense.

the sad thing is... that wasnt even the best bulls team... imagine playing the one with Harper and Rodman on it too...

[m33p0]

try watching reruns of those 80's games. you'd notice there wasn't much, if any, pick and rolls. alot of isos and post-ups. not much double-teaming. weak-side help was none-existent. alot of standing around. the only thing you could really say about defense back then was that it was more physical and clotheslining someone may leave you blooded but doesn't get you suspended.

[m33p0]

Magic did face a defense like that in the 1992 NBA Finals and those Bulls really frustrated Magic and the Lakers offense.
if worthy and kareem were still playing back then, the results would have been very,very different. the bulls were very lucky they never had to face a truly dominant low post scorer, and the lakers had 2.

[xtremesteven33]

Yeah i need alot of clarification on this statement especially the jordan is a twig part, shows how much you know about basketball, as jordan generally outweights kobe, and is a tougher and more athletic player, pls do explain else we will leave to it as you being a moron.



we are talking about 80's BBALL

-jordan in the 80s was a skinny ball player...look it up
-David also wasnt very bulky, just ripped in the 80's
-Bill Lambier was just a big guy with no muscle definition, just big, compare that to what we have now in..Ben Wallace, Dwight Howard, Shaq, Yao Ming
-look up old 80's tapes man.....do YOUR research and compare thier body sizes to what there is today....

[Allanon]

Kobe's transformed into a rather "big" shooting guard...when he broke into the league, he was a skinny tall shooting guard. Now he's a thick shooting guard.

I don't know about how much or how big Jordan was but I do know two things in his comparison to Kobe:

1) Jordan is about an inch shorter than Kobe
2) The Kobe right now is a much bigger player than Jordan. Kobe is not 205, he's more of 220-230
3) Athletically, I give it a draw...Jordan's done stuff Kobe has never done and Kobe's done stuff Jordan never did.


http://badpussy.org/uploads/files/smu8ch7vo8btzxawsuur.jpg

[GaryJohnston]

Kobe's transformed into a rather "big" shooting guard...when he broke into the league, he was a skinny tall shooting guard. Now he's a thick shooting guard.

I don't know about how much or how big Jordan was but I do know two things in his comparison to Kobe:

1) Jordan is about an inch shorter than Kobe
2) The Kobe right now is a much bigger player than Jordan. Kobe is not 205, he's more of 220-230
3) Athletically, I give it a draw...Jordan's done stuff Kobe has never done and Kobe's done stuff Jordan never did.


http://badpussy.org/uploads/files/smu8ch7vo8btzxawsuur.jpg


Yup, Jordan has won 6 titles as the lead guy, while Kobe has won 0 as the leader

[Allanon]

Yup, Jordan has won 6 titles as the lead guy, while Kobe has won 0 as the leader

This is about size, not greatness, Jordan is still the greater player. But that's a different debate and I think those numbers will change. You can't just discount Kobe's 3 rings just because he had Shaq, MJ got nowhere without Pippen.

Score right now is 6-3 in favor of Jordan. My prediction is Kobe will have 8 by the time it's all said and done.

[Findog]

Defenses and strategy are way more sophisticated today. Teams do a lot more switching ont he p'n'r, they will not necessarily stick their PF on an opposing team's PF, their PG on the opposing team's PGs (think Shawn Marion on Tony Parker), which results in a lot more cross-switches. There's liberal use of zone too.

A team gives up 149 points in a game today and you'd rightly call it a horrible defensive performance. The Showtime Lakers did that in a Finals game, in a series they came back and won.

[stretch]

Score right now is 6-3 in favor of Jordan. My prediction is Kobe will have 8 by the time it's all said and done.

Not with the Blazers being in the league.

[JamStone]

1) Jordan is about an inch shorter than Kobe
2) The Kobe right now is a much bigger player than Jordan. Kobe is not 205, he's more of 220-230
3) Athletically, I give it a draw...Jordan's done stuff Kobe has never done and Kobe's done stuff Jordan never did.

Where is your information that Jordan is shorter than Kobe?

Kobe specifically stated that he lost weight this summer to get quicker. When he played on Team USA, he said he was at 205 after dropping 10-12 pounds.

[JamStone]

if worthy and kareem were still playing back then, the results would have been very,very different. the bulls were very lucky they never had to face a truly dominant low post scorer, and the lakers had 2.

Worthy was still playing for the Lakers then. It was the 1991 Finals. I think I put down 1992 in my initial post. Worthy was still playing.

[Allanon]

Where is your information that Jordan is shorter than Kobe?

Kobe specifically stated that he lost weight this summer to get quicker. When he played on Team USA, he said he was at 205 after dropping 10-12 pounds.

1) Jordan is 6'5, Kobe is 6'6. I've seen both of them together in person as well and you can tell that Kobe is slightly taller.
http://www.askmen.com/men/november99/1_michael_jordan.html
http://www.23.pl/pix/cv/7jordan_kobe.jpg

2) Kobe said in a recent article (this season) something about his 220 pounds, I forgot what article it was exactly. It was to the effect of his 220 pounds coming at someone, there's no stopping him. And then there's his profile
http://www.realgm.com/src_playerfile/155/kobe_bryant/

[lefty]

This is about size, not greatness, Jordan is still the greater player. But that's a different debate and I think those numbers will change. You can't just discount Kobe's 3 rings just because he had Shaq, MJ got nowhere without Pippen.

Score right now is 6-3 in favor of Jordan. My prediction is Kobe will have 8 by the time it's all said and done.

We have a comedian

[JamStone]

we are talking about 80's BBALL

-jordan in the 80s was a skinny ball player...look it up
-David also wasnt very bulky, just ripped in the 80's
-Bill Lambier was just a big guy with no muscle definition, just big, compare that to what we have now in..Ben Wallace, Dwight Howard, Shaq, Yao Ming
-look up old 80's tapes man.....do YOUR research and compare thier body sizes to what there is today....


You're still using the biggest players, not the average players in today's NBA. Shaq and Howard and Yao Ming are the biggest players in the league. An average NBA center is still about 6-11, 240 today.

You can go back to the 80s and pick a handful of big men that were big and thick. Look at Mark Eaton or Jack Sikma. Patrick Ewing for most of his NBA career had a playing weight of around 270. Hakeem, even though he was his somewhat slender still played around 250-260. Karl Malone at 260 even though he was only about 6-8. Charles Barkley at about 250 at 6-4. Kareem in his prime was probably around 270. Robert Parish around 250.

Shaq is a freakish anomaly no matter what era, just like Wilt. And, Shaq is not anywhere close to the average center in today's NBA. Yao is 7-6. For his height, 300 lbs is like 250 for a 7-footer. Dwight Howard is probably around 275. That's more than the average center back in the 80s but it's not that huge of a difference.

Today's NBA players are definitely stronger and lift more weight and look more muscular. But, the body mass is not nearly that huge of a difference you make it out to be.

[Allanon]

We have a comedian

Will Kobe add a ring this year? How about next year?

Just a guestimation. I think he has a fairly good chance of getting one this year and the next 3 years the Lakers should be unstoppable if they keep Pau, Kobe, Bynum, Odom.

[JamStone]

1) Jordan is 6'5, Kobe is 6'6. I've seen both of them together in person as well and you can tell that Kobe is slightly taller.
http://www.askmen.com/men/november99/1_michael_jordan.html
http://www.23.pl/pix/cv/7jordan_kobe.jpg

2) Kobe said in a recent article (this season) something about his 220 pounds, I forgot what article it was exactly. It was to the effect of his 220 pounds coming at someone, there's no stopping him. And then there's his profile
http://www.realgm.com/src_playerfile/155/kobe_bryant/

Why would you reference a profile that probably doesn't update weight?

Reference this:

http://fitnessblackbook.com/fitness-studs/kobe-bryant-loses-20-pounds-for-upcoming-nba-season/

October 23, 2007. Beginning of this season.


As for Kobe's height versus Jordan's height, that picture doesn't show much of a difference at all except for Kobe's afro. Show me a picture with both standing up straight as opposed to MJ leaning up against a wall and with Kobe without his afro. Their chins and shoulders are at almost identical height.

[Allanon]

Why would you reference a profile that probably doesn't update weight?

Reference this:

http://fitnessblackbook.com/fitness-studs/kobe-bryant-loses-20-pounds-for-upcoming-nba-season/

October 23, 2007. Beginning of this season.


As for Kobe's height versus Jordan's height, that picture doesn't show much of a difference at all except for Kobe's afro. Show me a picture with both standing up straight as opposed to MJ leaning up against a wall and with Kobe without his afro.

You're right about the profile, it's lame. Kobe has gotten his weight back over the course of the season. I'll go try to find that article where he says he's 220, I think it was an LATimes article.

As for the height, there was an ESPN/CNN article recently discussing the size of Jordan, Kobe and LeBron. The evolution described in the article is that each one is a bigger version of his predecessor.

[Allanon]

I found an article, this is not the same one comparing Jordan, Kobe, LeBron but it also states the height

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=bayless/041217



Kobe Bryant is a little more gifted athletically than Michael Jordan was.

Kobe is a much better pure shooter. Kobe has risen into Michael's rare air when it comes to making great late shots. Kobe is a little taller, and just as quick and strong. Kobe plays with as much nightly energy and passion as Michael did, even on defense.-

[JamStone]

A little taller? Ok, maybe. They're both about 6-6, so if we're talking about a fraction of an inch difference, I can buy it. I've also seen sites that say Kobe is 6'4 and 7/8" without shoes. Kobe was also listed at 6-8 when he first came into the league and played small forward when the Lakers when Eddie Jones was still the 2-guard. I'm just saying, if Kobe is taller than Jordan, it's marginal at best. We're talking about eighths of an inch difference.

And, just to be clear, you are also citing a Skip Bayless article that does not provide any legit reference itself as to the respective heights of each player.

[lefty]

Will Kobe add a ring this year? How about next year?

Just a guestimation. I think he has a fairly good chance of getting one this year and the next 3 years the Lakers should be unstoppable if they keep Pau, Kobe, Bynum, Odom.

" We have a winner ! "

http://blogs.mediavillage.com/last_comic_standing/archives/last%20comic%20standing.jpg

[Allanon]

" We have a winner ! "

http://blogs.mediavillage.com/last_comic_standing/archives/last%20comic%20standing.jpg

Hahah, surprise, surprise. Great way to dodge the question :D

[lefty]

Hahah, great way to dodge the question :D

Thks.

The Lakers will be just scary next season, with Gasol even more comfy in the Lakers' O and D, and with a healthy, improved Bynum

[bobbyjoe]

Defenses and strategy are way more sophisticated today. Teams do a lot more switching ont he p'n'r, they will not necessarily stick their PF on an opposing team's PF, their PG on the opposing team's PGs (think Shawn Marion on Tony Parker), which results in a lot more cross-switches. There's liberal use of zone too.

A team gives up 149 points in a game today and you'd rightly call it a horrible defensive performance. The Showtime Lakers did that in a Finals game, in a series they came back and won.

Disagree.

There's nothing revolutionary about defensive strategies in today's NBA. The only thing I think which has changed strategically is that a lot of teams forego opportunities for offensive rebounds to get back on transition defense. The zone's impact is really overrated because it's hardly ever used by teams. Only situationally to give different looks here and there.

Scoring is down, not because of great defense, but because of a myriad of other reasons:

1) Declining fundamentals and skill levels of players entering the NBA. A big reason for this was the massive influx of 18-19 yr olds coming either straight from High School or after a very short stint in college.

2) Michael Jordan/Sports Center: You've had a ton of guys more interested in many ways at making the highlight play, the big dunk or embarassing their opponent with a crazy crossover than doing the little things to win ball games.

3) Offensive style shift: Much less motion, player movement, and ball movement to free guys. Much more isolation. The bigs of today like Sheed, Jermaine O'Neal, Al Harrington, Nowitzki, KG, Webber (a few yrs ago) are more interested in proving their prowess at lower percentage 20-25 foot jumpers. Guys like Duncan and O'Neal are the only throwback era to the 80's/90's golden era of dominant post play with monsters like Moses, Kareem, Robinson, Olajuwon, Walton, Barkley, K. Malone, etc.

4) Lost arts: Outlet passing/midrange jumper. These were great offensive tools of the 80's/90's and now they are just gone.

Expansion has really diluted the game which is why scoring and FG% have gone down so much. Obviously if you have teams that dont move the ball well, dont move without the ball well, the result is an ugly product and I can see why it would lead to the initial conclusion that defense is simply better.

But let's remember it's not a coincidence that in the 80's/90's Titles were won for the most part by Larry Bird, Magic/Kareem, Michael Jordan, Hakeem. What these guys have in common is that they were all basically the best offensive players in the NBA at the time their teams won titles. Simply put, great offense beats great defense everytime. The problem is that there isn't much truly great offense played in today's NBA, largely due to the aforementioned reasons IMO.

Although I should qualify this by saying I do think the NBA is finally catching up talentwise to the expansion. I think Stern's minimum age rule is helping and there's some really good young talent in today's NBA after a really dull period the past few years. The league is getting it's mojo back.

[ShoogarBear]

I agree that overall defense is better today. It's played with more intensity by better athletes. If you compare game films from the 80s to those today, you appreciate just how much harder people close on defense now and how many more open shots there were back then.

However, there is a contribution from the fact that shooting skills are worse today, especially the midrange game. I think people were able to hit reliably from more different spots on the court than now.

[ShoogarBear]

Also, I agree that the Pistons were really the forerunners of the defense being played today. They had guys athletes like Rodman and Salley with handchecking allowed. Before them, the Knicks were the paradigm of winning by defense, but Detroit brought it up to a whole new level.

[spurms]

This is about size, not greatness, Jordan is still the greater player. But that's a different debate and I think those numbers will change. You can't just discount Kobe's 3 rings just because he had Shaq, MJ got nowhere without Pippen.

Score right now is 6-3 in favor of Jordan. My prediction is Kobe will have 8 by the time it's all said and done.


There's no debate, kobe 0 dpoy, 0 mvps, how many defensive first team? 0?

KB in yrs the NBA allowed handchecking: 561 games - 21ppg 43% FG%

26.1% of KB's pts come from the FT line vs 21.6% for MJ & yet MJ has a "HIGHER" pts per FGA.

Ever notice KB's offense DRAMATICALLY improved "AFTER" they changed the rules?
KB in the last 3 yrs handchecking or lane violation was allowed (01-02, 02-03, 03-04): 227 games - 23ppg 43% FG%

KB "SINCE" the new anti-handchecking rule (not including 07-08): 223 games - 31ppg 46% FG%.

Kobe, from 2002-04 averaged 21.7 shot attempts vs 16.85 shot attempts for shaq

He shot MORE times than shaq & STILL couldn't outscore him!! That just PROVES how TRULY INEFFICIENT he is at scoring!

He's a VOLUME shooter/scorer. He takes TONS of shots, just to BE ABLE to score 20+ppg & post MEDIOCRE shooting %'s & he's DONE this his ENTIRE career! :lol

[JamStone]

There's no debate, kobe 0 dpoy, 0 mvps, how many defensive first team? 0?

5 defensive first team selections for Kobe Bryant.

[spurms]

5 defensive first team selections for Kobe Bryant.

nvm they have to give him an award somewhere.

[Allanon]

There's no debate, kobe 0 dpoy, 0 mvps, how many defensive first team? 0?


5 Defensive first teams, one of the best defenders in the NBA

0 MVPs, so far, at least 1 coming this year.....

0 DPOY, that's probably not going to change.

As for Kobe's shooting %, he got much better because he grew older and got better. Defenses back in MJ's days are not as good as today's defense. Double teams were much rarer then while Kobe sees a double everytime he touches the ball. In addition, Jordan's size and quickness was a rarity back then. Kobe's a better shooter than Jordan, almost everybody agrees on that.

Even right now people are discussing who is better but Kobe always loses because he only has 3 rings. It's all about the rings.

As is right now, Jordan has more rings so he's the greater player, but if Kobe gets more rings, I think history has a chance at being rewritten as to who the greater player was.

[spurms]

5 Defensive first teams, one of the best defenders in the NBA

0 MVPs, so far, at least 1 coming this year.....

0 DPOY, that's probably not going to change.

As for Kobe's shooting %, he got much better because he grew older. Defenses back in MJ's days are not as good as today's defense. In addition, Jordan's size and quickness was a rarity back then. Kobe's a better shooter than Jordan, almost everybody agrees on that.

As is right now, Jordan has more rings so he's the greater player, but if Kobe gets more rings, I think history has a chance at being rewritten as to who the greater player was.

lol what a homer, defense back in the days on elite players like jordan was much more physical, or you have been living under a rock all those years. He's a greater player not because he has more rings, but the way he won it, fighting a flu, a pippen injury, and hitting one impossible jumper and layups after the other, i will bring this up again, kobe stats after stern change the rules to FAVOR guards like him 31 ppg on 46% shooting, a bulk of those points coming from free throws, the new ruling attributed to alot of those, and shaq winning all 3 finals mvp in the lakers 3 championship, kobe still anywhere near the level of jordan? :lol

[Allanon]

lol what a homer, defense back in the days on elite players like jordan was much more physical, or you have been living under a rock all those years. He's a greater player not because he has more rings, but the way he won it, fighting a flu, a pippen injury, and hitting one impossible jumper and layups after the other, i will bring this up again, kobe stats after stern change the rules to FAVOR guards like him 31 ppg on 46% shooting, a bulk of those points coming from free throws, the new ruling attributed to alot of those, and shaq winning all 3 finals mvp in the lakers 3 championship, kobe still anywhere near the level of jordan? :lol

Are you kidding me? This is why he was the greater player? Read up, the defense back then was only good and physical on a FEW teams, most teams played NORMAL basketball defense, not all this "Detroit Pistons Bad Boy" stuff...that was 1 team. Anytime you breathed on Jordan you got a foul.

Go look at the size of players back then, Jordan was a monster compared to most shooting guards of that era. Now a 6'6 shooting guard is normal.

You'll have to do better that or step away from the Haterade :downspin:

[spurms]

Are you kidding me? This is why he was the greater player? Read up, the defense back then was only good and physical on a FEW teams, most teams played NORMAL basketball defense, not all this "Detroit Pistons Bad Boy" stuff...that was 1 team. Anytime you breathed on Jordan you got a foul.

Go look at the size of players back then, Jordan was a monster compared to most shooting guards of that era. Now a 6'6 shooting guard is normal.

You'll have to do better that or step away from the Haterade :downspin:

You breath on jordan and gets a foul? that would explain the free throw discrepencies between mj and kb:lol, you are making little sense, those bad boys stuff were legally banned after jordan took them apart, you want to see good defense? look no further than the bulls, knicks, jazz, magic, houston of the 90s, any of those team could match up defensively with any team in the nba today, and there are allowed to go much tougher defensively, that was why olajuwon made shaq cried, stop living in the moment and own up to the truth, it's sad watching you try so hard to defend a lie.

[Allanon]

You breath on jordan and gets a foul? that would explain the free throw discrepencies between mj and kb:lol, you are making little sense, those bad boys stuff were legally banned after jordan took them apart, you want to see good defense? look no further than the bulls, knicks, jazz, magic, houston of the 90s, any of those team could match up defensively with any team in the nba today, and there are allowed to go much tougher defensively, that was why olajuwon made shaq cried, stop living in the moment and own up to the truth, it's sad watching you try so hard to defend a lie.

Let's see here, you have Bulls, Knicks, Jazz, Magic, Houston.

That's 5 teams out of the whole NBA that played great defense and that makes the 90s such an awesome defensive period? oops... EPIC FAIL.


You breath on jordan and gets a foul? that would explain the free throw discrepencies between mj and kb:lol, you are making little sense,

Are you just making stuff up for fun? Hahah, Jordan shot WAY more free throws than Kobe in his career. Go look it up, NBA.com is your friend. Yet another FAIL

Take another drink of Haterade and Keep it coming :lol

[spurms]

Let's see here, you have Bulls, Knicks, Jazz, Magic, Houston.

That's 5 teams out of the whole NBA that played great defense and that makes the 90s such an awesome defensive period? oops... EPIC FAIL.



Are you just making stuff up for fun? Hahah, Jordan shot WAY more free throws than Kobe in his career. Go look it up, NBA.com is your friend. Yet another FAIL

Take another drink of Haterade and Keep it coming :lol

utah jazz, chicago bulls, new york knicks, houston rockets, had any of those 5 teams been around during "shaq's" championship run kobe would remain ringless.

If kobe goes at a rate of shooting around 700 ft a season he will easily surpass jordan in ft, he is already ahead of jordan in free throws per game:lol,
you know you got owned when you cant throw out any legit stats to back urself up.

[Findog]

Kobe just keeps getting better and better, and at his age he's in the prime of his career. To attribute his better stats to the elimination of handchecking as the predominant factor is correlation, not causation.

[Allanon]

utah jazz, chicago bulls, new york knicks, houston rockets, had any of those 5 teams been around during "shaq's" championship run kobe would remain ringless.

If kobe goes at a rate of shooting around 700 ft a season he will easily surpass jordan in ft, he is already ahead of jordan in free throws per game:lol,
you know you got owned when you cant throw out any legit stats to back urself up.

Uhm, yeah sure, free throws.

Kobe 12 seasons: 6703
Jordan 12 seasons: 7394

FAIL :D

[spurms]

Uhm, yeah sure, free throws.

Kobe 12 seasons: 6703
Jordan 12 seasons: 7394

FAIL :D

At the rate he's going, i am only taking the past 8 season to jordans last 8 seasons, kobe shot more free throws per minute played fail again

[Allanon]

calculate by mpg not games or season, you failed!

Oh, we have to do "special calculations" to make Jordan shoot less free throws? Maybe we should stand on our head and count it backwards too? :D

More FAILage.

[balli]

Fuck this Kobe vs Jordan debate. And fuck the handchecks; Jordan won the rings, Kobe hasn't yet (in the After Shaq period). Once he does we can talk, until then; Jordan.

As for defense- 90's by far.

[spurms]

Kobe just keeps getting better and better, and at his age he's in the prime of his career. To attribute his better stats to the elimination of handchecking as the predominant factor is correlation, not causation.

it's not a cause, i am just saying that without handchecking kobe allevate his game to 31 ppg, on 46% shooting, that means he did chuck up a fair amount of shots, jordan was 32ppg on 50.5% shooting, stats before he joined the wizards.