Funny How no ones calling out 2 time MVP, Stevie NASH!

[LakeShow]

I will for you. I've always said that the reason teams play the helter skelter game of run, run, run with Nash is because of his glaring weakness on Defense. Teams can win a lot of games playing that way in the regular season but in a playoff series, your weakness is exploited and you have to be accountable. Nash can not be accountable! He has been constantly abused by everyone he attempts to defend. He has showed to be not only just an average point guard in the league (his career stats confirm that also) but now that the team has slowed down and have an inside presence. He has shown to be a liability! What he gives on offense, he gives away on defense. It's a wash!

Steve Nash for MVP has been the dumbest argument and award in the history of basketball.

I'm sure when it's all said and done, Shaq will go back to his original statement saying that Nash winning the MVP was a joke in a joke league. I concur!

[mystargtr34]

Nash gets such an easy ride compared to other franchise players so to speak... especially compared to Dirk (who gets treated unfairly).

[endrity]

I love Nashy, but the way he has been treated compared to Dirk (who has beat the Spurs and advanced to the Finals) shows how biased the media can be.

[Amare_32]

I having been saying that for a while. The reason that Stoudemire and Shaq get into foul trouble is because the guards get beat. Is not just Nash,Barbosa and Bell share blame as well. At least when Matrix was here you can put him on Parker and hide Nash on defense. Granted it says something when you have to hide a 2 time MVP on defense. But as we have all seen the without Shawn Marion there the Spurs have really exposed Nash on that end. BTW Leandro thanks for showing up when the game was pretty much over.

[resistanze]

Nash always gets a free pass. It makes the journalists who voted for him back-to-back for MVP feel less like morons.

He's a great player, but a victim of media hype/bandwagoning. I just hope for his sake he makes the finals and maybe wins a championship down the line.

[boutons_]

Suns failure to perform well in the playoffs isn't because of Steve's weak defense. It's because d'Antoni's weak coaching.

Steve is popular because he offensive work is so fun and impressive. Fans don't watch or appreciate defense, so Steve's lack of it goes unnoticed.

[Amare_32]

In Steve's defense however the team was going nowhere before he came back. Yes Nash leaves alot to be desired on the defensive side of the ball but what were the Suns before him came? They were 29-53 and heading towards the lottery. Stoudemire was injured that season,Marbury got traded,Frank Johnson was canned. We had Barbosa running point. Then next season we got 62 wins and a trip to the WCF. We have been in the playoffs since but now is time to consider the dreaded R word. They need to think about rebuilding around Stoudemire.

[The Nba Is Rigged]

I bet you if it was Dirk he would have been bashed by everyone continuously, people have actually been trying to blame Dirk for the mavs losing the first two games of the series even though he is playing at a very high level, if Dirk was the one that was down 0-3 the media would have killed him by now.

[JMarkJohns]

He's two year's past those MVPs. He's obviously in a state of decline. Having a head coach like D'Antoni and having to face a team like the Spurs this early is obviously taking its toll in this series.

He's one man. One man past his prime. The Suns are losing this series because they aren't as good a "team" as the Spurs. Really, it's just as simple as that. Nash played pretty good the first two games. It sucks for us that his down game came at a time when the Suns couldn't afford for him to have one, but I think he's done. He's carried a franchise on his back for far too long without a competent coach and a capable backup. Does he deserve some blame for this? Of course, but this dumping on him for his present based upon his past's higher level of play is absurd.

[LakeShow]

Suns failure to perform well in the playoffs isn't because of Steve's weak defense. It's because d'Antoni's weak coaching.

Steve is popular because he offensive work is so fun and impressive. Fans don't watch or appreciate defense, so Steve's lack of it goes unnoticed.

I agree with this. Why else would the media jump on the fact that Kidd can not guard CP3 but no mention of Nash being old and can not guard Parker? Nash not being able to guard the better point guards of the league and parker hurts the suns and puts them in a position where they're playing 4 on 5, on defense. He brings absolutely nothing on defense.

Nash may be 2 years past his MVP awards but he was no better then on defense than he is now.

[Findog]

I agree with this. Why else would the media jump on the fact that Kidd can not guard CP3 but no mention of Nash being old and can not guard Parker? Nash not being able to guard the better point guards of the league and parker hurts the suns and puts them in a position where they're playing 4 on 5, on defense. He brings absolutely nothing on defense.

He may be 2 years past his MVP awards but he was no better then on defense than he is now.

Kidd is still a good team defense player, creates steals and other turnovers by the way he plays the passing lanes and is ALWAYS the smartest guy on the court.

[LakeShow]

Another thing, I hear this drag about Shaq, Amare, Barbosa not coming thru. When Nash is brought up, it's his team mates didn't come through for him??? WTF, Nash is the suppose to be the so called 2 time MVP, shouldn't the credit or blame fall on his shoulders as much as it would for any other star in the league? Kobe, Bron, CP3, Dirk, Tracy. Those players would take all of their teams blame for failure.

[Findog]

Another thing, I hear this drag about Shaq, Amare, Barbosa not coming thru. When Nash is brought up, it's his team mates didn't come through for him??? WTF, Nash is the suppose to be the so called 2 time MVP, shouldn't the credit or blame fall on his shoulders as much as it would for any other star in the league? Kobe, Bron, CP3, Dirk, Tracy. Those players would take all of their teams blame for failure.

Can you imagine that shitstorm that erupts if Dirk lays an egg last night and his team went down 0-3?

I love Nash, for his game and the causes he's involved in off the court, but he has gotten way too much of a free pass for far too long.

[peskypesky]

It's all Kerr's fault. The trade for Shaq was not a smart one for the Suns.

[LakeShow]

Kidd is still a good team defense player, creates steals and other turnovers by the way he plays the passing lanes and is ALWAYS the smartest guy on the court.

I agree. I can see Kidd being in Nash's position on the Suns and Phoenix being a lot better ball club. He may not score as much but he gives you something on both ends of the court.

[JMarkJohns]

I don't think it would have mattered one way or the other. The Suns with Marion would have still lost to the Spurs, and they weren't doing great against the Lakers or Hornets, either. They'd have needed to win the Pacific, which was probably doable, but had they, and then they faced really any team outside of Houston, Dallas or Denver, then I think they go home, and it was never a guarantee vs. any of those three squads, either.

Too much went from from last season to this. Too many wasted drafts. Too many mismanaged offseasons. The Shaq trade felt like a necessity because of everything that had happened before. To that end, it was the straw that broke the camal's back, but if you think said back was hurtin' and in need of attention beforehand, then you'd be mistaken.

[Findog]

I agree. I can see Kidd being in Nash's position on the Suns and Phoenix being a lot better ball club. He may not score as much but he gives you something on both ends of the court.

And with Phoenix, there is always four other guys on the court that can shoot and he can just distribute. I'm seeing it now, the way New Orleans crowds Dirk and wants to funnel the ball to Kidd to shoot it. We really lack a true 2-guard. If we had one more shooter on the floor to space things, teams can't try that as much. Although Terry stepped it up last night. I think Avery is finally seeing the light, you can get away with starting Terry at the 2 in this series bc the Hornets have a small backcourt as well. Harris/Terry was too undersized going up against B Diddy and J-Rich. In any event, more Jet, less Suckhouse.

[Findog]

It's so funny, the Suns should've traded Nash for Kidd and the Mavs are the ones that should've gone after Shaq. Of course, if the former had happened, the Phoenix fanbase would've rioted.

[JMarkJohns]

I agree. I can see Kidd being in Nash's position on the Suns and Phoenix being a lot better ball club. He may not score as much but he gives you something on both ends of the court.

WTF?! Kidd can't shoot a lick. He'd kill the Suns. Despite the one win vs. New Orleans, he still has yet to win a playoff series vs. a Western Opponant.

Kidd on Phoenix has been done before and despite several 50-win squads and a few instances of homecourt advantage, Kidd was 0-fer when leading the Suns in the playoffs.

He may do better with Dallas, but there's almost zero chance the Suns are better with Kidd than with Nash. The offense would be halved and the defense wouldn't be near good enough to pick up the slack.

[JamStone]

It's hard to put much blame on Nash when Amare doesn't play a lick of defense either and Shaq can't make free throws. Nash's defense is one problem. If Shaq makes his free throws so that he can stay on the floor longer and if Amare actually puts effort helping protect the paint, it's still a series.

[Findog]

WTF?! Kidd can't shoot a lick. He'd kill the Suns. Despite the one win vs. New Orleans, he still has yet to win a playoff series vs. a Western Opponant.


He doesn't need to shoot when he's surrounded by Phoenix's players. And yet to win a series against a Western opponent? What does 10 years ago have to do with anything? And we're only through G3, so hold your horses, although I think the Hornets are going to win this series.



Kidd on Phoenix has been done before and despite several 5-win squads and a few instances of homecourt advantage, Kidd was 0-fer when leading the Suns in the playoffs.

What happened 10 years ago is irrelevant.



He may do better with Dallas, but there's almost zero chance the Suns are better with Kidd than with Nash. The offense would be halved and the defense wouldn't be near good enough to pick up the slack.


Oh, I think the Suns would be better. You don't need Kidd to shoot and you can't funnel the ball to him as easily the way the Suns space the floor and the shooters they can surround him with. He works best with an uptempo team in transition, and Phoenix has better personnel for that than Dallas, assuming they kept Marion. And their defense would undoubtedly be better. Maybe not enough to win a title, but I definitely think Kidd would be better for Phoenix than Nash. What's left of his defensive abilities overcomes Nash's outside shooting. Never would happen because of Nash's status in Phoenix.

[LakeShow]

WTF?! Kidd can't shoot a lick. He'd kill the Suns. Despite the one win vs. New Orleans, he still has yet to win a playoff series vs. a Western Opponant.

Kidd on Phoenix has been done before and despite several 5-win squads and a few instances of homecourt advantage, Kidd was 0-fer when leading the Suns in the playoffs.

He may do better with Dallas, but there's almost zero chance the Suns are better with Kidd than with Nash. The offense would be halved and the defense wouldn't be near good enough to pick up the slack.

I disagree. They could still be a fast breaking team with Kidd and his defense would be just as valuable as Nash's ppg. Kidd's still capable of a triple double. He would lower the points they allow a game considerably with his defense, rebounding, steals and assists.

[peskypesky]

It's so funny, the Suns should've traded Nash for Kidd and the Mavs are the ones that should've gone after Shaq. Of course, if the former had happened, the Phoenix fanbase would've rioted.

I agree. I thought Shaq would've fit in MUCH better on Dallas. They idea of him fitting in with the Suns was laughable to begin with, and laughable still.

[Bob Lanier]

He doesn't need to shoot when he's surrounded by Phoenix's players.
Yes, he does. Or tell me, how's he doing with the superior offensive and shooting talent in Dallas?

[ludda]

I can see if it were another less-beloved star player, there would be MUCH MUCH more criticism, but it's Steve Nash, the guy everyone loves remember???

[JMarkJohns]

The Suns are predicated upon the pic-n-roll. Every open shot they get in the halfcourt is from the collapsing defense on Amare in the post, or the rotational defense trying to pick up the ball as its passed along the perimeter after the PnR has been run.

Kidd can't run it. I just don't see the Suns being anywhere near as efficient on offense with Kidd.

As what happened ten years ago is relevant. It shows that despite talent, Kidd's shooting stalls the halfcourt offense. You can't win a playoff series vs. Western Conference teams as a transition mainly offense. You need balance and I just don't think Kidd would bring enough of it to Phoenix for them to be better.

Suns needed to do a lot of things, going as far back as the offseason they signed Nash. But trading Nash for Kidd isn't one of them, in my opinion.

[LakeShow]

It's hard to put much blame on Nash when Amare doesn't play a lick of defense either and Shaq can't make free throws. Nash's defense is one problem. If Shaq makes his free throws so that he can stay on the floor longer and if Amare actually puts effort helping protect the paint, it's still a series.

It's not that hard at all! Shaq has made some free throws, Amare has gotten some rebounds and blocks. Nash has brought absolutely nothing on D. I saw not a single steal yesterday.

[JMarkJohns]

It's not that hard at all! Shaq has made some free throws, Amare has gotten some rebounds and blocks. Nash has brought absolutely nothing on D. I saw not a single steal yesterday.

What about flops?

Me thinks you overstate the prowess of Shaq making FTs and Amare controlling the paint.

[LakeShow]

What about flops?

Me thinks you overstate the prowess of Shaq making FTs and Amare controlling the paint.

We have a stat for flops? J/k

I'm not saying that Shaq and Amare contributed in those areas enough to win but tony parker's line should be attributed to Nash, directly or in-directly. That is his man!

[JMarkJohns]

That's not true. If a Phoenix big man could step up and control the paint, whether ir be blocks directly, or altered shots indirectly, and do such without fouling, then Nash wouldn't be taken to the rim near as much.

If the Suns had Marcus Camby, Nash "defense" would appear much better.

The one thing I can say about Nash's defense is that it's bad, but not for a lack of effort. Nash is incapable, not unwilling. I s'pose you can say similar about Shaq's FT shooting, and maybe his shotblocking since he's now so old, but Amare only half-heartedly tries for rebounds and good defense.

[LakeShow]

That's not true. If a Phoenix big man could step up and control the paint, whether ir be blocks directly, or altered shots indirectly, and do such without fouling, then Nash wouldn't be taken to the rim near as much.

If the Suns had Marcus Camby, Nash "defense" would appear much better.

The one thing I can say about Nash's defense is that it's bad, but not for a lack of effort. Nash is incapable, not unwilling. I s'pose you can say similar about Shaq's FT shooting, and maybe his shotblocking since he's now so old, but Amare only half-heartedly tries for rebounds and good defense.

Because he is incapable of playing defense, it puts more pressure on the others at that end.

That one highlight they show on Espn of Amare was pathetic.

[mavsfan1000]

Kidd has been equally embarrassing defensively. A true point guard that can defend is the key to success. Kidd guards Paul the first 2 games and gets lit up. Than he defends Pargo in game 3 and gets lit up. Fuck you Kidd.

[JMarkJohns]

Because he is incapable of playing defense, it puts more pressure on the others at that end.

That one highlight they show on Espn of Amare was pathetic.

Agreed... neither is doing the other any favors on defense. But Nash's strength is what he brings to the offense. Maybe right now it's not looking good enough to the point where it more than makes up for his defense, but fact is the Suns have had several offseasons to being in help to shore up the lane and discourage slashers from consistently taking Nash off the dribble and they haven't.

The reason I won't fault Nash is he's given everything he has. Even if it wasn't ever enough, that's all we as fans can ask. Management has failed him repeatedly to both get that shotblocker to control the paint and a capable backup to give him rest. Management and other teammates have failed Nash and the Suns more than Nash has failed them.

[JamStone]

It's not that hard at all! Shaq has made some free throws, Amare has gotten some rebounds and blocks. Nash has brought absolutely nothing on D. I saw not a single steal yesterday.

You don't understand the hack-a-Shaq completely. It's not just about Shaq missing free throws. It's about forcing D'Antoni's hand to take Shaq out of the game. That forces D'Antoni to play a smaller line-up with less interior resistance defensively. It puts greater pressure on Amare and the perimeter defenders. When Shaq has been out on the floor, he may not be great in pick-and-roll defense, but he plays Duncan one-on-one, is an interior presence, and helps defensive team rebounding overall. To think it's just about Shaq making a few of his free throws is naive. Him missing enough to force D'Antoni to take him out for stretches changes the game plan for the Suns at both ends of the floor.

And, rebounding and getting a few blocks is not the only responsibilities on defense for a big man. Amare doesn't contest dribble drives in the paint very well. He isn't strong defending the post. And, he doesn't close on perimeter switches. Getting rebounds and a block here or there does not mean Amare is playing defense. To think it is is ridiculous.

Nash is not a good defender. Everyone knows that. That's what Shaq was supposed to help with. That's what switching up playing zone is supposed to help with. That's what his teammates and coaches are supposed to help with. And, newsflash, Tony Parker was killing anyone who was guarding him, Diaw, Hill, Barbosa, anyone who switched on him, all of them.

[LakeShow]

You don't understand the hack-a-Shaq completely. It's not just about Shaq missing free throws. It's about forcing D'Antoni's hand to take Shaq out of the game. That forces D'Antoni to play a smaller line-up with less interior resistance defensively. It puts greater pressure on Amare and the perimeter defenders. When Shaq has been out on the floor, he may not be great in pick-and-roll defense, but he plays Duncan one-on-one, is an interior presence, and helps defensive team rebounding overall. To think it's just about Shaq making a few of his free throws is naive. Him missing enough to force D'Antoni to take him out for stretches changes the game plan for the Suns at both ends of the floor.

And, rebounding and getting a few blocks is not the only responsibilities on defense for a big man. Amare doesn't contest dribble drives in the paint very well. He isn't strong defending the post. And, he doesn't close on perimeter switches. Getting rebounds and a block here or there does not mean Amare is playing defense. To think it is is ridiculous.

Nash is not a good defender. Everyone knows that. That's what Shaq was supposed to help with. That's what switching up playing zone is supposed to help with. That's what his teammates and coaches are supposed to help with. And, newsflash, Tony Parker was killing anyone who was guarding him, Diaw, Hill, Barbosa, anyone who switched on him, all of them.

Please, i am not talking about the hack a shaq. My reference to that was that they have made some contributions, maybe not enough, but they have made some. Nash has made none!

[JMarkJohns]

Please, i am not talking about the hack a shaq. My reference to that was that they have made some contributions, maybe not enough, but they have made some. Nash has made none!

You overstate to the point where any validity a point has is ignored.

Nash is terrible, but he puts effort into it, is willing to stand in and take much more contact than his body should handle and never gives up on rotations.

He's not good, but I can't fault his effort.

[JamStone]

So if Nash had gotten a couple of steals, you're saying you wouldn't say anything?

Please. Nash is not a good defender. He does make an effort. He's just not very good, especially containing quicker players. What's Amare's excuse? Amare is one of the most physically gifted athletes in the league. And, he's one of the worse defenders. Just because he gets a couple blocks, he earns a reprieve? Because Shaq only missed 8 free throws, he's good?

Nash deserves some blame. No more than anyone else on the team who all have been underachieving.

[LakeShow]

So if Nash had gotten a couple of steals, you're saying you wouldn't say anything?

Please. Nash is not a good defender. He does make an effort. He's just not very good, especially containing quicker players. What's Amare's excuse? Amare is one of the most physically gifted athletes in the league. And, he's one of the worse defenders. Just because he gets a couple blocks, he earns a reprieve? Because Shaq only missed 8 free throws, he's good?

Nash deserves some blame. No more than anyone else on the team who all have been underachieving.

Bingo, except Nash has not been getting any of the blame. You would expect to get better than a line of 7 points, 9 assists, 0 steals, 2 rebounds from your 2 time MVP. He's been basically playing rover on defense and you can't even get 1 steal? For the whole series? Some say it's not because of effort, ok cool, its not but it is because of ability. Either way, its not getting done!

[JamStone]

Getting a steal doesn't mean he's playing defense. Nash knows if he goes for steals against Parker, he'll get burnt and compromises the defense and offers a great chance to get his bigs in even more foul trouble. Getting a steal or two would not change the fact that he's not a good defender. It's silly to blast a guy for not getting any steals. That's been your argument. "He can't even get one steal?" That's such a crap argument.


And, who cares who's getting blame? You want to blast on Nash on a sports messageboard, fine. Why do you even care about a player getting enough blame?

[LakeShow]

Getting a steal doesn't mean he's playing defense. Nash knows if he goes for steals against Parker, he'll get burnt and compromises the defense and offers a great chance to get his bigs in even more foul trouble. Getting a steal or two would not change the fact that he's not a good defender. It's silly to blast a guy for not getting any steals. That's been your argument. "He can't even get one steal?" That's such a crap argument.


And, who cares who's getting blame? You want to blast on Nash on a sports messageboard, fine. Why do you even care about a player getting enough blame?

Uh, Nash doesn't guard Parker enough to get burnt. Steals is the defensive specialty of a PG, that is what they do! Along with he just flat out sucks in keeping guards in front of him or any phase of playing defense! What do YOU think a PG's responsibility should be on defense, Einstein? Flops? You want to praise a player from doing absolutely nothing on defense, that's your business, I choose not to and that's MY business! Nash should be accountable just like Shaq and Amare!!!!!

[Findog]

Kidd has been equally embarrassing defensively. A true point guard that can defend is the key to success. Kidd guards Paul the first 2 games and gets lit up. Than he defends Pargo in game 3 and gets lit up. Fuck you Kidd.

God you are so fucking stupid. Nobody can guard Paul, Kidd included. Second, the Mavs were choosing to let Pargo try and beat them instead of Paul.

[Bob Lanier]

Steals is the defensive specialty of a PG, that is what they do!
No, it's not, you moron.

[mavsfan1000]

God you are so fucking stupid. Nobody can guard Paul, Kidd included. Second, the Mavs were choosing to let Pargo try and beat them instead of Paul.
Yes and they chose it by letting Kidd guard Pargo. Kidd doesn't have the quickness to guard either player. Terry defended Paul pretty well surprisingly but he does have a little more speed than Kidd. Lue should get a shot as well to guard Paul.

[endrity]

Getting a steal doesn't mean he's playing defense. Nash knows if he goes for steals against Parker, he'll get burnt and compromises the defense and offers a great chance to get his bigs in even more foul trouble. Getting a steal or two would not change the fact that he's not a good defender. It's silly to blast a guy for not getting any steals. That's been your argument. "He can't even get one steal?" That's such a crap argument.


And, who cares who's getting blame? You want to blast on Nash on a sports messageboard, fine. Why do you even care about a player getting enough blame?


JamStone, not that I disagree with anything you've said. I think his point is that players of similiar stature on their team like Dirk and Kobe would get absolutely roasted for the type of game the Suns played last night. God, Dirk can play twice as good and he will still be a choker, or a 'softie' for the media. Tim Legler just said that he is the Mavs problem, eventhough he is having an amazing series.

This speaks to a double standard. The media has a certain agenda, and they go forward with it. They create stereotypes which are easily instilled in people's mind. This whole conversation proves it. They have made Nash burden-less when it comes to the Suns' failures. Yet last year, the Mavs lost a regular season game to the Suns when Dirk missed a shot in the end, and they all were up in arms saying that Dirk should not win an MVP and such.
If Nash is no more to blame for the Suns' struggle than the rest of the team, how come Kobe was never defended for having to play with Smush Parker, or Dirk defended for the way Stack and Jet failed to make the Warriors pay for tripple teaming him? If "it's a team game" argument is used for Nash, then it should for everyone else.

[Findog]

Yes and they chose it by letting Kidd guard Pargo. Kidd doesn't have the quickness to guard either player. Terry defended Paul pretty well surprisingly but he does have a little more speed than Kidd. Lue should get a shot as well to guard Paul.


And they suckered New Orleans into running their offense through him. Do you have any comprehension at all to what it means to lose the battle and win the war?

[endrity]

Yes, he does. Or tell me, how's he doing with the superior offensive and shooting talent in Dallas?

Dallas has superior shooting talent???? Where oh where outside of Dirk, and the decreasingly hot night from Terry is this talent. Any true Mavs fan will tell you that a shooting guard is the key hole of the roster.

[LakeShow]

No, it's not, you moron.

I guess thats why in the last 8 years that a pg has led the league in steals 6 of them and a point guard finished in the top 3 in the years that a point guard didn't win it. I'm sure if I did deeper it will just expand the numbers of PG's that led the league in steals. Retarded Bitch!

[resistanze]

Another thing, I hear this drag about Shaq, Amare, Barbosa not coming thru. When Nash is brought up, it's his team mates didn't come through for him??? WTF, Nash is the suppose to be the so called 2 time MVP, shouldn't the credit or blame fall on his shoulders as much as it would for any other star in the league? Kobe, Bron, CP3, Dirk, Tracy. Those players would take all of their teams blame for failure.

This is what puzzles me. The justification for his MVPs was predicated on the fact that he 'makes his teammates better'. Basically, the team's success was placed squarely Nash's shoulders. Now that the team isn't coming through, Nash's teammates are suddenly responsible for themselves?

I obviously don't blame Nash for his team's ineptitude, but he didn't deserve all the praise in the first place.

[Bob Lanier]

Dallas has superior shooting talent???? Where oh where outside of Dirk, and the decreasingly hot night from Terry is this talent. Any true Mavs fan will tell you that a shooting guard is the key hole of the roster.Nowitzki, Terry, Howard, and Bass are at least as good as Stoudemire, Bell, and Barbosa. Hill, Diaw, and O'Neal certainly aren't any threat as spot-up shooters. At the most pessimistic appraisal of Dallas, I think they're no worse than at par with Phoenix's shooting talent.

That aside, there's no way Kidd can run any decent half-court offense of the kind Phoenix relies upon, as JMarkJohns correctly notes. A player like Kidd (or Brevin Knight or Carlos Arroyo for that matter) can rack up assists and steals in a broken field, but against a playoff-caliber defense their inability to score only leads to broken plays. You need some balance in order to run a pick-and-roll; that Steve Nash is the best shooter ever to play the game is as important to his success with the Suns as his creativity as a ballhandler.

[LakeShow]

No, it's not, you moron.

I went back seven more years just for the hell of it, 5 of them were point guards, Here take a look for yourself

http://databasebasketball.com/leaders/playerseasonsearch.htm

[Bob Lanier]

I guess thats why in the last 8 years that a pg has led the league in steals 6 of them and a point guard finished in the top 3 in the years that a point guard didn't win it. I'm sure if I did deeper it will just expand the numbers of PG's that led the league in steals. Retarded Bitch!
That's because it's easy for a guard to cheat for steals, idiot, not because it helps their team defense for them to do so.

The players to lead the NBA in steals over the last decade are Chris Paul, Shawn Marion, Allen Iverson, Jason Kidd, Doug Christie, Eddie Jones, Kendall Gill, Brevin Knight, and Mookie Blaylock, less than half of whom are good defenders. Steals are simply not an indicator of a team's defensive quality or the quality of individual defenders on a team.

Or are you sorry the Lakers gave up on Smush Parker?

[LakeShow]

This is what puzzles me. The justification for his MVPs was predicated on the fact that he 'makes his teammates better'. Basically, the team's success was placed squarely Nash's shoulders. Now that the team isn't coming through, Nash's teammates are suddenly responsible for themselves?

I obviously don't blame Nash for his team's ineptitude, but he didn't deserve all the praise in the first place.

Great point!

That's where the problems lie, he got ALL of the credit for their success!

[LakeShow]

That's because it's easy for a guard to cheat for steals, idiot, not because it helps their team defense for them to do so.

The players to lead the NBA in steals over the last decade are Chris Paul, Shawn Marion, Allen Iverson, Jason Kidd, Doug Christie, Eddie Jones, Kendall Gill, Brevin Knight, and Mookie Blaylock, less than half of whom are good defenders. Steals are simply not an indicator of a team's defensive quality or the quality of individual defenders on a team.

Or are you sorry the Lakers gave up on Smush Parker?

Wtf airhead, Because it's easier wouldn't that make it their specialty, dipshit! It doesn't matter if their a good man for man defender, obviously Nash is not, what matters is that they contributed something on the defensive end. Nash contributes NOTHING!

[endrity]

Yes and they chose it by letting Kidd guard Pargo. Kidd doesn't have the quickness to guard either player. Terry defended Paul pretty well surprisingly but he does have a little more speed than Kidd. Lue should get a shot as well to guard Paul.

Actually it's not like Kidd defended Pargo that much so I don't think you watched the game to be honest.

[Bob Lanier]

Wtf airhead, Because it's easier wouldn't that make it their specialty, dipshit!
No, because, as you would put it, steals usually contribute NOTHING! to a team's defense.

Gambling for steals makes your team worse on the defensive end, not better.

[LakeShow]

No, because, as you would put it, steals usually contribute NOTHING! to a team's defense.

Gambling for steals makes your team worse on the defensive end, not better.

c'mon man, this is getting silly. Steals contribute nothing? You can only get a steal playing "Defense".

[JamStone]

You're missing the point. Even if a player gets a few steals, many more times a player who is going for steals and doesn't get them puts his team in a poor position defensively. What good is two steals if 10 other times a player goes for steals ends up in an easy bucket for the opposing team?

[SRJ]

LakeShow must think Amare Stoudemire is a great defender since he finished in the top ten in blocks per game.

[LakeShow]

You're missing the point. Even if a player gets a few steals, many more times a player who is going for steals and doesn't get them puts his team in a poor position defensively. What good is two steals if 10 other times a player goes for steals ends up in an easy bucket for the opposing team?

What about if that steal is the only attempt at a steal? Like Havlicek (http://www.nba.com/history/players/havlicek_summary.html) stole the Ball! Or Bird makes the steal and passes to DJ. A timely steal can be just as important as any defensive play.

Only thing I'm saying is if you're playing rover a lot of the game and that is what Nash basically does because he can not defend anyone one on one, You're playing the ball where ever it goes, I don't that getting one steal is asking too much.

[LakeShow]

LakeShow must think Amare Stoudemire is a great defender since he finished in the top ten in blocks per game.

you see, this is exactly what I'm talking about. I make a thread on Nash and what he has not done defensively and you immediately want to move to Amare. I know Amare sucks on D, I made reference to it in one of my posts that the highlight that they showed on him not attempting to make a play on a shot right in his face was pathetic. This is not about Amare, this is about Nash being accountable just as much as the others.

[BiZNicK]

I expected more production out of Nash in game 3.

Though he was guarded by Bowen....

owned.

[JamStone]

What about if that steal is the only attempt at a steal? Like Havlicek (http://www.nba.com/history/players/havlicek_summary.html) stole the Ball! Or Bird makes the steal and passes to DJ. A timely steal can be just as important as any defensive play.

Only thing I'm saying is if you're playing rover a lot of the game and that is what Nash basically does because he can not defend anyone one on one, You're playing the ball where ever it goes, I don't that getting one steal is asking too much.

First off, I'm not the one who said steals contribute nothing for a defense.

Steals can make an impact. But, going for steals generally doesn't help team defense. The chances of Nash going for only one steal and actually getting it is minimal. Your criticism is unrealistic.

And, you're exaggerating what Nash does on defense. Nash actually tries at defense. He does not play rover. He is not Bob Sanders or Troy Polamalu. He does defend one on one. He's just not good at it. For him to just go for steals puts the Suns at an even greater disadvantage defensively when they are already well below average.

You're trying to make a point that makes little sense.

Even when Nash gets steals in games, it doesn't mean he's playing good defense. You're argument is crap.

JR Smith had 1 steal against the Lakers today. He must have played some defense.

[LakeShow]

First off, I'm not the one who said steals contribute nothing for a defense.

Steals can make an impact. But, going for steals generally doesn't help team defense. The chances of Nash going for only one steal and actually getting it is minimal. Your criticism is unrealistic.

And, you're exaggerating what Nash does on defense. Nash actually tries at defense. He does not play rover. He is not Bob Sanders or Troy Polamalu. He does defend one on one. He's just not good at it. For him to just go for steals puts the Suns at an even greater disadvantage defensively when they are already well below average.

You're trying to make a point that makes little sense.

Even when Nash gets steals in games, it doesn't mean he's playing good defense. You're argument is crap.

JR Smith had 1 steal against the Lakers today. He must have played some defense.

Jamstone, my argument is that NASH does NOTHING on Defense. Absolutely NOTHING! Show me where he has and i'll concede, other wise there is no argument!

[JamStone]

Not what I'm arguing. I'm arguing your contention that he should at least get one steal in a game. Nash getting one or two steals would not have made an impact in the first three games. Your argument has been that he should at least get one steal. That wouldn't have changed the outcome of any of those games.

[LakeShow]

Not what I'm arguing. I'm arguing your contention that he should at least get one steal in a game. Nash getting one or two steals would not have made an impact in the first three games. Your argument has been that he should at least get one steal. That wouldn't have changed the outcome of any of those games.

One steal would have shown ONE defensive play! So thats why I stated that Nash does absolutely NOTHING on defense.

[endrity]

JamStone, not that I disagree with anything you've said. I think his point is that players of similiar stature on their team like Dirk and Kobe would get absolutely roasted for the type of game the Suns played last night. God, Dirk can play twice as good and he will still be a choker, or a 'softie' for the media. Tim Legler just said that he is the Mavs problem, eventhough he is having an amazing series.

This speaks to a double standard. The media has a certain agenda, and they go forward with it. They create stereotypes which are easily instilled in people's mind. This whole conversation proves it. They have made Nash burden-less when it comes to the Suns' failures. Yet last year, the Mavs lost a regular season game to the Suns when Dirk missed a shot in the end, and they all were up in arms saying that Dirk should not win an MVP and such.

If Nash is no more to blame for the Suns' struggle than the rest of the team, how come Kobe was never defended for having to play with Smush Parker, or Dirk defended for the way Stack and Jet failed to make the Warriors pay for tripple teaming him? If "it's a team game" argument is used for Nash, then it should for everyone else.

[LakeShow]

It seems when I brought up that Nash didn't have one steal that some thought that I was saying if he did have some he would be considered a defender. That was not what i meant, Nash could have 10 steals and he would still suck on defense. By him not having any steals, I can use the word "nothing", if he had one, saying nothing wouldn't be correct, would it?

It is all about accountability, Shouldn't Nash be taking more of the burden than shaq, amare and others? He's the two time MVP? It's his team. He makes everybody better. He had a very crummy game last night. Shouldn't the MVP make a difference someplace else if his offense sucks? That's true for everybody except Nash, no matter what he does, if they win. Nash led them, if they lose, His team mates didn't come through for him.

[jonnybravo]

It seems when I brought up that Nash didn't have one steal that some thought that I was saying if he did have some he would be considered a defender. That was not what i meant, Nash could have 10 steals and he would still suck on defense. By him not having any steals, I can use the word "nothing", if he had one, saying nothing wouldn't be correct, would it?

It is all about accountability, Shouldn't Nash be taking more of the burden than shaq, amare and others? He's the two time MVP? It's his team. He makes everybody better. He had a very crummy game last night. Shouldn't the MVP make a difference someplace else if his offense sucks? That's true for everybody except Nash, no matter what he does, if they win. Nash led them, if they lose, His team mates didn't come through for him.

Yeah. I agree with your sentiment but by and large your posts were a little unclear in their sentiments.

Carry on :).

[LakeShow]

Yeah. I agree with your sentiment but by and large your posts were a little unclear in their sentiments.

Carry on :).

Maybe so because I was posting to 2 different people at the time. I went from talking about Nash to talking about steals in general.

[jonnybravo]

Maybe so because I was posting to 2 different people at the time. I went from talking about Nash to talking about steals in general.

Word.

[LakeShow]

Word.

My bad but everybody should know that "Steals and Nash do not go together" :lol

[lefty]

I expected more production out of Nash in game 3.

Though he was guarded by Bowen....

owned.

Owned

Powned

Grounded

Bowened :flag:

[JamStone]

One steal would have shown ONE defensive play! So thats why I stated that Nash does absolutely NOTHING on defense.

Drawing an offensive foul is nothing? Getting a defensive board is nothing? Contesting a jumper is nothing?

Look, it's been well established and we all agree Nash is not a good defender. You're being extreme.

[SpurOutofTownFan]

I will for you. I've always said that the reason teams play the helter skelter game of run, run, run with Nash is because of his glaring weakness on Defense. Teams can win a lot of games playing that way in the regular season but in a playoff series, your weakness is exploited and you have to be accountable. Nash can not be accountable! He has been constantly abused by everyone he attempts to defend. He has showed to be not only just an average point guard in the league (his career stats confirm that also) but now that the team has slowed down and have an inside presence. He has shown to be a liability! What he gives on offense, he gives away on defense. It's a wash!

Steve Nash for MVP has been the dumbest argument and award in the history of basketball.

I'm sure when it's all said and done, Shaq will go back to his original statement saying that Nash winning the MVP was a joke in a joke league. I concur!

Thats called "NBA FO" and it's part of the reason the spurs are a "boring" team, boring my f.ing ass

[BiZNicK]

Steve who?