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Gino
05-01-2008, 07:24 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/080501


A requiem for the S.S.O.L. Era in Phoenix

By Bill Simmons
Page 2
(Archive | Contact)

Updated: May 1, 2008, 5:29 PM ET
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I made my friend Chris Connelly appear on this week's "B.S. Report" to discuss "critically acclaimed sports teams," following up on a discussion we had right after Game 2 of the Suns-Spurs series, when things were looking bleak for Phoenix and the end of Mike D'Antoni's reign seemed imminent.



B.S. REPORT
Bill talks to Chris Connelly about Hollywood encounters, the course of pop culture and how he became the go-to guy for sad pieces on ESPN.

• The B.S. Report "Well, that's OK that they didn't win the title," Connelly cheerfully said at the time. "At least they were critically acclaimed!"


From there, Connelly unleashed his theory of "critically acclaimed" sports teams (check the podcast for the full details) and how these Suns teams would be cheerfully remembered some day like we remember Coryell's Chargers and the Fab Five. In other words, it didn't really matter that they never won a championship, just like it didn't matter that "Pulp Fiction" didn't win an Oscar, "The Wire" never won an Emmy and "Arrested Development" bombed in the ratings. We would always remember them fondly and feel like they were more successful than they actually were.



And I was sitting there thinking, "Why didn't I think of that?"



You couldn't come up with a better two-word eulogy for the Seven Seconds or Less Era (or S.S.O.L. Era in Phoenix: Critically acclaimed.



Maybe the Suns didn't win a championship, but we'll remember them 100 times more fondly than the brutally efficient and hopelessly bland Spurs, who taught everyone over the years that the regular season doesn't matter, transformed the NBA Playoffs into a flopathon, revived the vile and fan-unfriendly Hack-A-Shaq strategy and did everything short of sending Bruce Bowen out on the court with a chain saw and a taser. If the Spurs were the Team of the Decade, no wonder ratings dwindled until the league's big comeback this season. The real shame is that all the mugging, acting, eye-rolling, flopping, rule-bending and hysterical shrugging obscured what should have been remembered as a throwback sports team, a shrewdly assembled roster of well-coached guys who played beautifully together, didn't care about credit and revolved around the best power forward who ever played. Instead, we'll remember them as the team that turned the NBA Playoffs into the World Cup. Congratulations, fellas.


(Important note: I don't hate the Spurs nearly that much; I'm trying to work up a proper level amount of hatred for them for the inevitable Celtics-Spurs Finals that's going to happen unless Doc Rivers screws it up ... which is exceedingly possible. The Spurs are a difficult team to dislike but you can do it if you try hard enough. I've made some huge strides in the past week. Just indulge me. Thanks.)





Meanwhile, the Suns were like the John Belushi of basketball teams -- thrilling, creative, inventive and loved by all, but ultimately, they couldn't sustain what they were doing for more than a couple of years, and by the time it came to a screeching halt, we were already wishing that things could return to the way they were three years before. Like Belushi, the Suns were critically acclaimed. Like Belushi (drugs), the Suns had an Achilles' heel (Robert Sarver). Like Belushi, the Suns tried to change their style near the end and it didn't work out. Like Belushi, we will remember the Suns fondly, and every time we see one of their old classic moments popping up on TV, we'll probably watch.


Nearly everyone regards the Shaq trade as the moment when PHOENIX (capital letters to represent the fact the Suns stood out) turned into Phoenix (lower-case letters, representing the fact that they were now just like any other team), but that's not necessarily true. Already straddling the fence between "run-and-gun Phoenix" and "more-conventional-than-you-think Phoenix," last summer's Grant Hill signing pushed them over the fence and made them hopelessly normal, even if we didn't want to admit it. Great guy, great athlete, phenomenally intelligent player, steal of a signing for the price ... and you could yell "Pull!" every time Hill launches a 3. For a team that revolved around high screens with Nash and Stoudemire, perfectly executed fast breaks and high-percentage 3s, Hill subtly changed what the Suns were. You didn't have to worry about defending him or Marion 25 feet from the basket -- two of the five Suns on the court, by the way -- making it impossible for them to spread the floor on those Nash/Stoudemire high screens.



So what were they? On paper, Hill made up for his long-range shooting faults with defense, leadership and all-around skills ... but did they want to get better defensively? What's the difference between being a D-minus defensively or a D-Plus? Does it really matter? Two years ago, Jack McCallum called his season-in-the-life Suns book "Seven Seconds or Less" because that was their mentality -- they didn't care about getting defensive stops, only about forcing a high-speed tempo and taking high-percentage shots as quickly as possible (especially 3s). One of the great basketball chess matches happened in Round 1 of the '06 Playoffs, when the Lakers were determined not to get caught up with Phoenix's breakneck pace, only the Suns kept dangling their high-speed game like a carrot -- "come on, run with us, it will be fun, come on" -- and the Lakers kept fighting them off and slowly things down. Ultimately, they couldn't hold the Suns off. That was the PHOENIX we knew and loved, but that "Seven Seconds or Less" mentality had faded into Bolivian well before the Shaq trade.



Anyway, some of this territory has been covered in this space before (most recently in the "15 What Ifs?" column from March), but I couldn't resist the chance to steal Connelly's theory and give the Suns we knew and loved a proper Viking funeral. They deserve critical acclaim. They deserve their own "Seven Seconds or Less" DVD with one of those planted Hollywood blurbs on the top like ...



"A nonstop thrill ride, I was jumping out of my seat!"
--Earl Dittman, Wireless Magazine



They also deserve to be raked through the coals for screwing up what could have been a once-in-a-generation team. The D'Antoni-Nash alliance should have lasted for as long as Nash's back held up -- maybe six years, maybe eight, maybe even 10 -- and instead, D'Antoni seems like a mortal lock to either resign or get canned this summer. (In fact, I thought it was happening this week, which was the main reason I wrote the column. Whoops.) Just don't blame the Shaq trade for cutting D'Antoni's reign short. If you're playing the blame game, look at the front office/ownership mistakes from 2004 to 2007. Had the Suns made two different choices (just two!) and not been so concerned about the luxury tax, they could have given us 6-to-8 years of wildly entertaining basketball and maybe even a dynasty. Collectively, the mistakes made by the Suns were staggering. Check out the last four years of Phoenix teams, season by season, and how they screwed up what should have been a historically good run.



(Note to the Suns fans: You might want to throw down a couple shots of tequila before you keep going. Just trust me.)



2005 SUNS


Relevant Details: 62 wins, 110.4 points per game, 103.3 points allowed, .477 FG%, .393 3FG%, 2,026 3s attempted, lost in Western Finals (San Antonio, six games).



Eight-Man Rotation: Amare Stoudemire, Shawn Marion, Joe Johnson (47.8% 3FG), Nash (43.1% 3FG), Quentin Richardson (38.9% 3FG), Leandro Barbosa (36.7% 3FG), Jimmy Jackson (45.9% 3FG), Steven Hunter.



Comments: That's the perfect S.S.O.L. team -- seven athletes and/or 3-point shooters and a Hall of Fame point guard running the show. This was the most "successful" (for lack of a better word) Suns team, falling to the future champion Spurs in a particularly tight series that could have played out differently if Joe Johnson hadn't fractured his eye socket in the previous round. You'd think they would have keep that nucleus together, right?



Unfortunately ...



Mistake No. 1: Re-read Marc Stein's post-mortem from August, 2005 to properly refresh your memory about the Joe Johnson fiasco. That's right, fiasco. Phoenix's relationship with Johnson deteriorated so badly that he directly asked Sarver not to match Atlanta's $70 million offer -- which he didn't -- leading to the devastating trade of Johnson for Boris Diaw and two future first rounders. (Note: In that aforementioned "What If's" column, I partially excused the Suns because Johnson wanted to leave, forgetting how they drove him away until a few bitter Suns fans refreshed my memory.) They had just come within two wins of the NBA Finals and built an identity; now they were dealing a 24-year-old potential All-Star, the perfect swingman for their system, a deadly shooter who could even play backup point guard for them ... and only getting back a bench player and two future picks? Maybe that deal would have made sense for some teams, but they had just come within two wins of making the Finals! And how could they botch the Johnson thing so badly that he asked to leave? (Note: I asked these same questions three summers ago.) To borrow a modern example, this would be like the 2008 Hornets coming within two games of the NBA Finals while lowballing David West for the entire year, then trading him to Charlotte this summer for Jared Dudley and two No. 1's. Would they ever do that in a million years?



Here's what kills me about the Johnson trade: With Nash, Amare, Marion and Johnson, you're set for the rest of the decade. That's it. That's your core. That's your guarantee for 57-plus wins a year and a specific style that can work. Surround them with role players and veteran buyout guys and you're contending until Nash breaks down, and even then, you can just shift the offense over to Johnson as the main creator. HOW CAN YOU GIVE THAT GUY UP???? So what if he's insulted and doesn't want to come back? He'll get over it! You're paying him $14 million a year and he gets to play with Steve Nash! Arrrrrrrrgh.



2006 SUNS


Relevant Details: 54 wins, 108.4 points per game, 102.8 points allowed, .479 FG%, .399 3FG%, 2,097 3s attempted, lost in Western Finals (Dallas, six games).



Eight-Man Rotation: Nash (43.9% 3FG), Marion, Diaw, Barbosa (44.4% 3FG), Raja Bell (44.2%) 3FG, Tim Thomas (42.9% 3FG), Eddie House (38.9% 3FG), James Jones (38.6% 3FG), Kurt Thomas, Stoudemire (injured).



Comments: Probably my favorite Suns team because of their three-point shooting (40 percent on nearly 2,100 attempts?!?!?!?), the playing-bigger-than-we-are thing (inspiring), and the gritty way they responded after losing Amare for the season. Remember, this wasn't a strong year for the league -- Dallas was good, but not that good, and Miami ended up being the weakest champ of any team this decade. Switch Diaw for Johnson, give them Bell and Thomas, make Amare healthy and you're looking at the 2006 champs.



(Uh-oh, cue up the ominous "Behind the Music" music.)



But that summer, everything changed ...



Mistake No. 1: For financial reasons, they traded the No. 21 pick (Rajon Rondo) to Boston along with Brian Grant's contract (chopping $1.9 million from their 2007 payroll) for the rights to Cleveland's 2007 first round pick. This was a double whammy because they acquired that Rondo pick two years before by giving up the No. 7 pick in the 2004 draft (for luxury tax reasons). So if you're scoring at home, they downgraded from "Luol Deng or Andre Igoudala in 2004" to "Rondo in 2006" to "selling the No. 24 pick in 2007 for cash" (we'll get to that in a second) ... which means that, effectively, they traded a No. 7 pick in a loaded draft for $4.9 million. Phoenix fans, you may now light yourselves on fire.



(What makes that one even more painful: Instead of signing Richardson before the 2004-05 season to a six-year, $42.6 million deal, they could have drafted Deng or Igoudala that summer and paid one of them two-fifths as much as Richardson over that same time frame. One year later, they swapped Richardson and the No. 21 pick in 2005 for Kurt Thomas, who they dumped on Seattle last summer along with two more No. 1's just to get him off their cap. As astounding as this sounds, Bryan Colangelo's decision to sign Richardson instead of drafting Deng or Igoudala -- which was dumb at the time, by the way -- ended up costing them a whopping FOUR FIRST ROUND PICKS! Would you rather have Richardson, or would you rather have the No. 7 pick in 2004, the No. 21 pick in 2005, and your first rounders in 2008 and 2010? Hold on, this gets better. Your 2005 NBA Executive of the Year? That's right, Mr. Bryan Colangelo! I love the NBA.)



Mistake No. 2: They sold the No. 27 pick to Portland (that ended up being Sergio Rodriguez). What's confusing is that they traded/sold those No. 1's for luxury tax reasons, and yet ...



Mistake No. 3: Two weeks later, they signed Marcus Banks to a five-year, $24 million deal to back up Nash. Marcus Banks!?!?!? Can you think of a worse guy for NashBall? He can't shoot 3s, he's a career loser, he's never won in college or the pros, it's unclear whether he'd ever accept a reduced role behind a two-time MVP ... let's get him! Why not just draft Rondo at 21 (or Marcus Williams, or Kyle Lowry, or Jordan Farmar ... ) and develop him as a backup for one-fourth the price of Banks? Why not draft Rodriguez at No. 27 and hope he pans out for one-fifth the money?



(You're lucky I'm not a Suns fan -- I would have written 15 consecutive columns complaining about this paragraph alone. For the life of me, I will never figure out the appeal of Marcus Banks for $24 million. All they had to do was hit one freaking Celtics message board from the '05-'06 season and check one of the 35 "MARCUS BANKS SUCKS" threads. My God.)



Mistake No. 4: Giving Diaw a $45 million, five-year extension before waiting to see if he could co-exist with Amare. Just senseless. He would have been a restricted free agent in the summer of '07 -- why not wait a year and make him play for the contract? (In the biggest non-surprise of the '07 season, Diaw showed up for camp woefully out of shape, proving yet again that you can't trust the French.) Also, would you rather pay $14 million a year to Diaw and Banks or just give that money right to Joe Johnson, the quintessential swingman for the S.S.O.L. Era? I'm telling you, this was a Greek tragedy.



2007 SUNS


Relevant Details: 61 wins, 110.2 points per game, 102.9 points allowed, .494 FG%, .399 3FG%, 1,967 3s attempted, lost in Western Semis (San Antonio, six games).



Nine-Man Rotation: Nash (45.5% 3FG), Marion, Stoudemire, Diaw, Barbosa (43.4% 3FG), Raja Bell (41.3%) 3FG, James Jones (37.8% 3FG), K. Thomas, Banks.



Comments: Let the record show that the S.S.O.L. Era peaked in January -- I even commemorated the moment with 3,500 words of critical acclaim -- before losing steam down the stretch and eventually falling to the Spurs for three reasons: The Suns couldn't defend Duncan (no surprise); Nash and Marion had worn down from extended seasons in '05, '06 and '07 (279 games for Nash, 290 games for Marion); and they caught a bad break with the Stoudemire/Diaw suspensions for Game 5. We could argue this one to the death, but I will always believe the Spurs were better; they led five of the six games by 10-plus points in the fourth quarter and executed down the stretch whenever they wanted.



More importantly, this was the season when the Suns entered "no man's land" stylistically -- they couldn't get stops against a really good team, but they couldn't sustain a breakneck pace for eight months anymore because Nash and Marion were getting older and they didn't have a decent backup point guard (or any young legs, for that matter). Even their one chance to acquire an elite rookie backfired: Heading into the 2007 lottery, they owned the rights to Atlanta's pick but it was top-three protected ... and Atlanta ended up drawing the No. 3 pick. Had they gotten No. 4 or No. 5, potentially, they could have packaged that pick with Marion and Thomas for Kevin Garnett or drafted a blue-chipper as bait for Pau Gasol during the season. Nope. Instead, it was a Spaulding Smails draft: they got nothing and liked it.



But hey, even with the window closing for the S.S.O.L. Era, there was still time for two more crucial mistakes.



Mistake No. 1: Selling the No. 24 pick (Rudy Fernandez) for $3 million to Portland. Of everything Sarver inflicted on the Phoenix fans since 2004, this may have been the biggest slap in the face. You can't play the luxury tax card with Fernandez because he wasn't planning on joining the NBA until 2008 or 2009 at the earliest, so actually, it would have been savvy if the Suns drafted him and stashed him in Europe for a year or two. Instead, Sarver basically announced to his fans, "Screw you, I'd rather have the three million, I'm taking the cash." Let the record show that, by all accounts, Fernandez would be a top-5 pick in this year's draft after lighting it up in Spain. Can you quantify the damage there? I say no.



Mistake No. 2: By dealing Thomas to Seattle along with two first round picks (2008 and 2010), they saved about $8 million (plus another $8 million in luxury tax expenses) ... which would have been fine if Seattle didn't eventually ship him to San Antonio, where he helped beat them in the '08 Playoffs and played crunch-time in all five games. Even if it was a defensible trade financially, that's what happens when you cut off your nose to spite your face.



2008 SUNS


Relevant Details: 55 wins, 110.1 points per game, 105.0 points allowed, .500 FG%, .393 3FG%, 1,764 3s attempted, lost in first round (San Antonio, five games).



Eight-Man Rotation: Nash (47.0% 3FG), Marion/Shaq, Stoudemire, Diaw, Barbosa (38.9% 3FG), Raja Bell (40.1%) 3FG, Grant Hill, Gordon Giricek's corpse.



Comments: Notice the lack of 3-point shooters? Throw in Marion's declining skills and generally sucky attitude and you could stick a fork in the Seven Seconds or Less Era. That's why I defended the spirit behind the Shaq trade; they weren't winning the title with what they had, so why not roll the dice and hope Shaq could revive his career? It turned out to be a pretty good bet: Shaq played better than anyone expected, and you can't fault Phoenix for losing a could-have-gone-either-way series to one of the best three teams in the NBA in Round 1.



Why did they fall short? Because they squandered three winnable games down the stretch, all because of execution mistakes that teams tend to make when the players aren't totally comfortable with one another yet. What stood out about the Spurs in Round 1 was their infallibility in big moments -- they knew what to do and where to go, and then they did it. You don't get there by accident; you get there by picking a nucleus and building around it. Back in 2005, the Spurs had the right nucleus (Duncan, Ginobili and Parker) and so did the Suns (Nash, Stoudemire, Marion and Johnson), but only one of those teams kept it intact. And that's why the Spurs won two titles (and counting), and that's why the Suns won the title of "critically acclaimed" and that's it.



One more thing: I don't know Robert Sarver. Never met the guy, never heard anything bad about him, couldn't vouch for his financial situation. For all I know, he's the greatest guy ever. But for the life of me, I can't imagine why someone would want to own an NBA team if he cared more about breaking even than winning a championship. What's the point? Why not sell to someone who cares more about a title? Like so many other NBA fans, I have a pipe dream of stumbling into enough wealth to own an NBA team some day. It will never happen, but really, it's my ultimate pipe dream other than my daughter turning into a world-class tennis player and me turning into one of those deranged Tennis Dads who shows up for every match flashing hand signals and intimidating the judges. Anyway, if I were fortunate enough to own an NBA team, I would never, ever, EVER favor my pockets over a chance at a title. I just wouldn't. It's like going to Vegas for a guy's weekend and refusing to lose more than $100. Why even go then? Just stay home.



For instance, Celtics owner Wyc Grousbeck once vowed never to pay the luxury tax like Sarver. When a potential Garnett deal started to take shape this summer, and the Celtics realized that their payroll could climb into the mid 70s (that's millions) once they filled out the roster with free agents and buyout guys, instead of just blindly saying, "Nope, sorry, we can't do this," the Celtics spent an inordinate amount of time figuring out exactly how they'd make that money back through ticket sales, merchandise revenue, corporate sponsorships, 2009 ticket hikes, playoff money, extra courtside seats and everything else. They left no stone unturned. Eventually, the decision was made that the Garnett trade was worth the risk -- they owed it to the fans, and if they couldn't figure out how to capitalize financially on a rejuvenated Celtics franchise in a sports-crazed city that absolutely loved basketball once upon a time, then they had failed as an organization. They made the trade. And if you watch any of the home Celtics playoff games, you'll see Grousbeck sitting underneath the basket next to the visitor's bench. He's the happiest guy in the building.




That could have been Sarver. Could the Suns have done more? Did they leave every stone unturned? Did they maximize the financial potential of those teams? Did they fail as an organization to capitalize on a potential dynasty? Looking at those moves from 2004 to 2007, you'd have to call the Seven Seconds of Less Era one of the memorably squandered opportunities in recent sports history. The thing is, "Pulp Fiction" and "The Wire" didn't need trophies to validate them -- critical acclaim and eternal affection from fans was enough. When you're critically acclaimed in sports, that means you failed in the end ... and those Suns teams did fail. As much as we hate to admit it.



(And now that we have that settled, let's spend the summer figuring out a way to get D'Antoni to Toronto. Jose Calderon, Chris Bosh and all those 3-point bombers dropping 114 points a night with the crazed Raptor Truthers cheering them on? Count me in! Maybe there's life for the S.S.O.L. Era yet.)



Bill Simmons is a columnist for Page 2 and ESPN The Magazine. For every Simmons column, as well as podcasts, videos, favorite links and more, check out the revamped Sports Guy's World.

FromWayDowntown
05-01-2008, 07:25 PM
Overreacting to a guy who admitted he was just talking smack forum. (realizing the OP is likely sympathetic to Simmons' view)

JMarkJohns
05-01-2008, 07:27 PM
I'm surprised this thread didn't appear sooner...

Is da_suns_fan__ Chris Connelly?

Like every Simmons' article, it's an entertaining read, but he has picks coming from places and drafts and going to places and whatnot that is not factual.

BlackSwordsMan
05-01-2008, 07:29 PM
why post this filth?

BlackSwordsMan
05-01-2008, 07:29 PM
nvm just read you're a celtics fan

Gino
05-01-2008, 07:32 PM
I'm surprised this thread didn't appear sooner...

Is da_suns_fan__ Chris Connelly?

Like every Simmons' article, it's an entertaining read, but he has picks coming from places and drafts and going to places and whatnot that is not factual.

I dont' get it.

rwb
05-01-2008, 07:33 PM
Well, it is called the B.S. Report...

some_user86
05-01-2008, 07:36 PM
Oh, c'mon... he essentially acknowledged that it was a joke.

Some of you all overreact.

JMarkJohns
05-01-2008, 07:38 PM
I dont' get it.

Have you ever read da_suns_fans' posts? Not one was without the celebration of style over substance. The fact that Connelly ranks SSOL Suns so high on his critically acclaimed list just made me laugh.

I mean, serisouly, was any team that failed to win a Title more celebrated than the Fab Five? It doesn't matter that record books don't acknowledge their existence. The Fab Five had as much of an impact on sports as anyone, any team every did. From black sox, to baggy shorts, to just overall celebration of the brash, in-your-face form of basketball... I was thoroughly captivated by them as a 12/13 year old. Damned if I didn't go hoop it up in C-Webb shoes and black NIKE socks.

1usamotorsports.com
05-01-2008, 07:38 PM
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l166/usamotorsports/colinpowellread.jpg

djohn14
05-01-2008, 07:39 PM
Hey look...this game is about taking advantage of players weeknesses...we did that.

JMarkJohns
05-01-2008, 07:40 PM
I actually feel his "I'm just joking" was a fake. I'm sure he doesn't want to wade through all the "You Suck, Spurs Rock" emails. I honestly think what he said initially was how he felt. Otherwise, just make your point without the unnecessarily over-the-top opinions.

FromWayDowntown
05-01-2008, 07:42 PM
The responses that are coming to Simmons from that riff will undoubtedly rival those that inspired him to drop this nugget a couple of years ago:


The funny part was all the angry e-mails from the San Antonio area -- is San Antonio a third world country or something and nobody told me? I haven't seen that many misspellings and crazed threats in the history of my column ... if there was a way to send e-mails in capital letters and crayons, that would have been the typical response from a Spurs fan. Do they have school systems there or is it simply home schooling and that's it?

Gino
05-01-2008, 07:43 PM
Have you ever read da_suns_fans' posts? Not one was without the celebration of style over substance. The fact that Connelly ranks SSOL Suns so high on his critically acclaimed list just made me laugh.

I mean, serisouly, was any team that failed to win a Title more celebrated than the Fab Five? It doesn't matter that record books don't acknowledge their existence. The Fab Five had as much of an impact on sports as anyone, any team every did. From black sox, to baggy shorts, to just overall celebration of the brash, in-your-face form of basketball... I was thoroughly captivated by them as a 12/13 year old. Damned if I didn't go hoop it up in C-Webb shoes and black NIKE socks.

I didn't understand where the Chris Connely reference came from but then I saw he was mentioned in the early part of the article.

Don't blame me too much! This guy writes and writes and writes.....:lol

SouthernFried
05-01-2008, 07:45 PM
I feel the same way about Dallas. That team was on the verge of winning it all. I feared them more than anyone else. Talent everywhere on the court. I never liked most of their players, but, man...they were tough.

I think both of these situations reflect more on the owners of those organizations than either the players or the coaches.

Holt doesn't get, or demand, enough of the credit.

Which says it all, methinks.

Gino
05-01-2008, 07:45 PM
Hey look...this game is about taking advantage of players weeknesses...we did that.

True, but Im thinking its a possibility the league changes the rules after what the Spurs did last round. I think they took it way too far.

Kudos to Popovic, though. His job is to win the game and thats exactly what he did.

FromWayDowntown
05-01-2008, 07:46 PM
True, but Im thinking its a possibility the league changes the rules after what the Spurs did last round. I think they took it way too far.

Kudos to Popovic, though. His job is to win the game and thats exactly what he did.

The league always seems to change the rules when the Spurs have prominent successes.

timvp had a great rant about this about a week ago.

Phil Hellmuth
05-01-2008, 07:50 PM
he is just mad, spurs are going to beat the celtics in finals.

some_user86
05-01-2008, 08:04 PM
Simmons has gone off the edge, not that he ever was really on it.

He's blaming management for the non-success of this team? Sure, they probably fucked up, but the core blame lies with the coach. Never has a team done so little with so much. They were oozing talent, so much so that they could afford to make critical personnel mistakes and still be the most naturally talented team in the league. Instead of utilizing that talent, they had an incompetent coach who piddled away the team's best years. Put any half-way decent coach in charge of the 2005-2007 teams and you likely have a championship in at least one of them.

Aggie Hoopsfan
05-01-2008, 08:16 PM
I actually feel his "I'm just joking" was a fake. I'm sure he doesn't want to wade through all the "You Suck, Spurs Rock" emails. I honestly think what he said initially was how he felt. Otherwise, just make your point without the unnecessarily over-the-top opinions.

Actually if you have read him for a while now, you'd realize as a Boston fan he constantly has joked/mock complained about the whole Duncan draft situation.

He's had some good things to say about the Spurs in the past, but he also likes to poke fun at them (and all the good teams). He's serious about trying to work up enough hate should the Celtics face the Spurs, he has admired the Spurs from afar for many years now.

Findog
05-01-2008, 08:17 PM
Actually if you have read him for a while now, you'd realize as a Boston fan he constantly has joked/mock complained about the whole Duncan draft situation.

He's had some good things to say about the Spurs in the past, but he also likes to poke fun at them (and all the good teams). He's serious about trying to work up enough hate should the Celtics face the Spurs, he has admired the Spurs from afar for many years now.

Wow, a reasonable and even-handed take from AggieHoopsFan.

Who are you, and how did you hack into AHF's account?

Aggie Hoopsfan
05-01-2008, 08:29 PM
Simmons has gone off the edge, not that he ever was really on it.

He's blaming management for the non-success of this team? Sure, they probably fucked up, but the core blame lies with the coach. Never has a team done so little with so much. They were oozing talent, so much so that they could afford to make critical personnel mistakes and still be the most naturally talented team in the league. Instead of utilizing that talent, they had an incompetent coach who piddled away the team's best years. Put any half-way decent coach in charge of the 2005-2007 teams and you likely have a championship in at least one of them.

Well, the players may have choked, and D'Antoni certainly is rather limited as a coach, but the personnel decisions the Suns have made over the last four years have been pretty idiotic and he does have a point.

CosmicCowboy
05-01-2008, 08:34 PM
:lmao

You guys just don't get Simmons. He really likes the Spurs but he is trying to prepare himself to hate them when they beat his beloved and newly rejuvinated Celtics in the finals.

SPARKY
05-01-2008, 08:43 PM
Any true Celtics fan hates the Spurs for taking away the career of Timothy Duncan to which the Celtics were entitled after the Celtics tanked to draft him.

Outside of those 5 drunk Micks, the rest of the Boston fanbase doesn't get it.

DarrinS
05-01-2008, 08:53 PM
How those Celtics doing with their 8 seed?

WildcardManu
05-01-2008, 09:02 PM
Seems like he keeps putting the blame on the cheap owner.

milkyway21
05-01-2008, 09:33 PM
Mistake No. 1: For financial reasons, they traded the No. 21 pick (Rajon Rondo) to Boston.
...........then Rudy Fernandez .. ....ewwww:cry

:lol

GSH
05-01-2008, 10:14 PM
Maybe the Suns didn't win a championship, but we'll remember them 100 times more fondly than the brutally efficient and hopelessly bland Spurs, who taught everyone over the years that the regular season doesn't matter...

We'll remember them more fondly every time we look in the rafters of the AT&T Center. The rest is Bill Simmons' public masturbation.

reddog 99
05-01-2008, 10:18 PM
Simmons is just a well spoken ENEMY.

Great breakdown on the stats, a current or prospective players potential, and the Suns back office moves and missed opportunities.

It's funny that through all that dribble and dissecting he never mentions that sometimes a TEAM wins without being the best at a particular measurable stat.

Over the course of a series, be it 4 or 7 games, the strongest will and talent emerges.

A combination of talent and heart will overcome pure talent anyday.

Talent being comparable it is the heart that will drive the CHAMPION.

Just my opinion though.

:flag: School them Nawlin's Hornets.... (it is ok to smack them again right...)

pauls931
05-01-2008, 10:26 PM
Well, the players may have choked, and D'Antoni certainly is rather limited as a coach, but the personnel decisions the Suns have made over the last four years have been pretty idiotic and he does have a point.

I agree, the Joe Johnson fiasco hurt. To this day they've yet to find a half decent backup for nash. I dread the last few and first few minutes of each quarter when I have to watch nash resting his back and markus banks, or barbosa now dribble around and the whole team look confused. The of course the other teams make runs during this period of time hence the spurs and just about anyone else being able to close out quarters better than phoenix.

Of course the offense didn't completely click with Joe, but it was sure a hell of lot better than Banks or Barbosa.

itzsoweezee
05-01-2008, 10:44 PM
LOL @ the Celtics making the finals. Keep dreaming asshole.

oboymeetsogirl
05-01-2008, 10:54 PM
Sheesh, just another sore loser. Hey, the Spurs have lost playoff rounds -- more than they have won. But do you ever hear them griping about the teams that beat them, and talking about how they were actually so much better than those teams?

Absolutely not. Each time the Spurs failed to reach the finals, they exited gracefully, giving all the credit to the other team, and then talked about what they need to do next year to get better. That's the mark of a true champion.

What is wrong with these Suns' fans?

pauls931
05-01-2008, 11:00 PM
Sheesh, just another sore loser. Hey, the Spurs have lost playoff rounds -- more than they have won. But do you ever hear them griping about the teams that beat them, and talking about how they were actually so much better than those teams?

Absolutely not. Each time the Spurs failed to reach the finals, they exited gracefully, giving all the credit to the other team, and then talked about what they need to do next year to get better. That's the mark of a true champion.

What is wrong with these Suns' fans?

You think Suns fans are bad? Wait until you likely end up meeting the lakers, those fans will storm your board big time.

reddog 99
05-01-2008, 11:08 PM
You think Suns fans are bad? Wait until you likely end up meeting the lakers, those fans will storm your board big time.

Been there done that.

We survived.

Where do you think we got our cojona's.

:flag:

Radiosparks
05-01-2008, 11:21 PM
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l166/usamotorsports/colinpowellread.jpg

:lmao:lmao

Budkin
05-01-2008, 11:58 PM
Please God let us beat the Celtics in the Finals!!! :drool:

spurs_fan_in_exile
05-02-2008, 12:30 AM
He's got his panties in a wad because after wetting his pants over the Return of the Blockbuster Trade the Suns and Mavs made disapointing first round exits.

I hate Sarver as much as the next guy, but to rake him over the coals by comparing the Suns lux tax moves to the Celtics getting Garnett? Come one. That's a stretch of epic proportions.

He neglects this little fact when it comes to the Suns failures: THEY WERE A HORRIFIC DEFENSIVE TEAM. You can go back in time, make all the magical moves in Simmons fantasy, and they'd still lose because they couldn't get stops when it mattered because they'd have zero defensive identity. You can shit on Sarver and Colangelo all you want, but the game comes down to the guys on the hardwood. Many were the people who could consider them "the most talented" team year in and year out. Whose fault is it that they were never "the best?"

phxspurfan
05-02-2008, 12:36 AM
Spurs in 6 over the Celtics.

JMarkJohns
05-02-2008, 12:39 AM
Well, the players may have choked, and D'Antoni certainly is rather limited as a coach, but the personnel decisions the Suns have made over the last four years have been pretty idiotic and he does have a point.

First, Simmons makes a few errors in his analysis of the Suns draft pick situation, such as where the picks came from, when they were traded, and so forth...

I wrote this a few days back for another site. I posted it here yesterday...

This is far more telling and accurate an account of the draft fiascos...


Since 2004...

Suns trade Tom Gugliotta and two future Knicks 1st-rounders to Utah for Keon Clark's expiring contract. *

Suns trade Jahaidi White, 3 million and Cavalier 1st-rounder to Charlotte for nothing.*

Suns trade their own #7 overall pick to Chicago for 2008 2nd-rounder and an unprotected 2005 1st-rounder.

Suns trade Quentin Richardson and 2008 Bulls 1st-rounder to New York for Kurt Thomas.

Suns trade Joe Johnson to Atlanta for Boris Diaw, 2006 Lakers 1st-rounder and a protected Hawks 1st-rounder.

Suns trade Brian Grant and 2006 Lakers 1st-rounder to Boston for 3 million and a 2007 Cavaleirs 1st-rounder.

Suns trade their own 2006 1st-rounder to Portland for 3 million dollars.

Suns trade James Jones and Cavaliers 1st-rounder to Portland for 3 million dollars.

Suns trade Kurt Thomas and two unprotected future Suns 1st-rounders to Seattle for nothing.

NOTE: *under Jerry Colangelo's regime...

It's absurd. Granted, had they used some of the original picks, they wouldn't have traded so many as there wouldn't have been the aquired picks to sell in later drafts, but Gugliotta's contract was also expiring that same offseason, but Utah was under the CAP and it saved Colangelo close to 15 million to make the trade. Imagine had Colangelo bit the bullet and paid the money for the Suns betterment? Two New York 1st-rounders since 2004? The White move was necessary to clear CAP space to make a run at Kobe, then sign Nash, make a run at Ginobili, then sign Richardson.

In recap: their own 1st (#7 overall) and the Knicks 1st (#16 overall) in 2004, the Lakers 1st (21st overall) and their own 1st (27th overall) in 2006, their own 1st in 2007 (29th overall), Atlanta's 1st (15th overall) and their own 1st (24th overall) in 2008, their own 1st in 2009 and New York's 1st (unprotected) and their own 1st in 2010.

Players available with each selection?

#7 overall in 2004: Lual Deng, Andre Iguodala, Andris Biedrins, Al Jefferson
#16 overall in 2004: Josh Smith, JR Smith, Jameer Nelson, Delonte West, Kevin Martin, Anderson Varejao

#21 overall in 2006: Rajon Rondo, Marcus Williams, Kyle Lowry, Jordan Farmar
#27 overall in 2006: Sergio Rodriguez, Solomon Jones, Craig Smith, Daniel Gibson, Paul Millsap

#29 overall in 2007: Alando Tucker, Carl Landry, Gabe Pruitt, Marcus Williams, Glen Davis, Ramon Sessions

#15 overall in 2008:
Their own 1st in 2008:

Their own 1st in 2009:

Unprotected Knicks 1st 2010:
Theor own 1st in 2010:

Mind boggling...

Granted, so long as D'Antoni remained coach, chances were always great these young players were never developed, played or placed in situations where they could succeed and improve without hurting the Suns regular season win totals, but still...

nomanches
05-02-2008, 12:53 AM
hmm just sounded like innocent ribbing to me... no need to overreact or feel disrepected considering spurs have won 4 championships and have been the most dominant franchise in sports for the past 10 years...spurs fans are spoiled at this point

Dingle Barry
05-02-2008, 12:59 AM
Wait just a got damn minute here.

So he compares something that was popular and critically acclaimed but which ultimately sucked (Suns) to something critically and generally unappreciated yet of a high quality (Arrested Development)?

He actually has it backwards there.

I would compare the Suns to:

The Macarena
http://www.bbc.co.uk/cambridgeshire/content/images/2006/05/30/macarena_460x192.jpg

Betamax
http://www.hrrc.org/Image/betamax.jpg

Numerous promising pharmaceuticals which attained FDA approval but later proven to be bogus or even dangerous.
http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/9908/04/ephedra.safety/story.ephedra.jpg


The Spurs. meanwhile, are under-appreciated in their own time but future generations will come to see their true worth. As it was with

Army of Darkness
http://daw.dyndns.org/images/movies/posters/army%20of%20darkness.jpg

wijayas
05-02-2008, 01:26 AM
Fuck Bill.... We should just ignore him. He is the biggest Boston fan hiding under the "analyst" cover.

sprrs
05-02-2008, 02:03 AM
I guess the Spurs should lose next time the play the Suns, because being remembered as 100 times less fun as the Suns isn't worth being better.

And being remembered as champs.

Vinny Del Negro
05-02-2008, 02:07 AM
Wait just a got damn minute here.

So he compares something that was popular and critically acclaimed but which ultimately sucked (Suns) to something critically and generally unappreciated yet of a high quality (Arrested Development)?

He actually has it backwards there.

I would compare the Suns to:

The Macarena
http://www.bbc.co.uk/cambridgeshire/content/images/2006/05/30/macarena_460x192.jpg

Betamax
http://www.hrrc.org/Image/betamax.jpg

Numerous promising pharmaceuticals which attained FDA approval but later proven to be bogus or even dangerous.
http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/9908/04/ephedra.safety/story.ephedra.jpg


The Spurs. meanwhile, are under-appreciated in their own time but future generations will come to see their true worth. As it was with

Army of Darkness
http://daw.dyndns.org/images/movies/posters/army%20of%20darkness.jpg

:lobt2:you are high. :lobt2::wakeup

ps, simmons has resented our entire Domination Session ever since the 97 draft. he's been feeling the fisting ever since.


:downspin:

also, this suns nondynasty will be remembered exactly as fondly as stockton/malone. history remembers winners, not jerkoffs who were pretty successful, yet were completely owned by a contemperary.

fuck it, suns in 11

ForeignFan
05-02-2008, 04:00 AM
I agree, the Joe Johnson fiasco hurt. To this day they've yet to find a half decent backup for nash. I dread the last few and first few minutes of each quarter when I have to watch nash resting his back and markus banks, or barbosa now dribble around and the whole team look confused. The of course the other teams make runs during this period of time hence the spurs and just about anyone else being able to close out quarters better than phoenix.

Of course the offense didn't completely click with Joe, but it was sure a hell of lot better than Banks or Barbosa.

I don't agree: Suns were pretty happy to get Diaw, who won MIP after the trade while Johnson sucked in Atlanta. B.S is full of B/S on this topic.
Diaw may not have lived up to expectations (until games 4/5) but that seems to be related to Amare's return and to D'Antoni's not knowing how to use him. Diaw is definitely not a sharp shooter compared to Johnson, but -until maybe this year- Suns did not really need another sharp shooter.

More generally, I cannot believe how a columnist can make such f...ing bad comments on the Spurs team.


hopelessly bland Spurs, who taught everyone over the years that the regular season doesn't matter, transformed the NBA Playoffs into a flopathon, revived the vile and fan-unfriendly Hack-A-Shaq strategy and did everything short of sending Bruce Bowen out on the court with a chain saw and a taser... the mugging, acting, eye-rolling, flopping, rule-bending and hysterical shrugging

What an a..hole

genomefreak13
05-02-2008, 04:21 AM
This dude should not attribute the low rating to the spurs. Not all games are played by San Antonio. SA doesn't dictate the way other teams play (at least when they're not playing against them). The defense oriented game has been played by the likes of CHICAGO bulls of the 90's and there were never complaints about it being source of low ratings.

In the same vein, the suns -as amusing as they are - are not always the source of entertainment and high ratings for the NBA. Amusement and entertainment is subjective and can never be attributed to one single factor. In my case - I dont care about the slow down basketball game that SA plays since the only thing that amuse me is the fact that they win their games.

This dude clearly is just desperate to build up phoenix's soaked reputation. Their loss to the spurs for the second straight year only proves that there way of basketball isn't good for the professionals. If they really want to profess this kind of game - they should also be ready to deal with their playoffs woes.

Happy fishing SUNS !!!!

:flag: :flag: :flag: :lobt2::lobt2::lobt2::lobt2:

Texas_Ranger
05-02-2008, 05:34 AM
What a biatch!

Obstructed_View
05-02-2008, 06:10 AM
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg48/Seraphim_08/GIVEADAMN-LOL.gif

Reggie Miller
05-02-2008, 09:17 AM
He's got his panties in a wad because after wetting his pants over the Return of the Blockbuster Trade the Suns and Mavs made disapointing first round exits.

I hate Sarver as much as the next guy, but to rake him over the coals by comparing the Suns lux tax moves to the Celtics getting Garnett? Come one. That's a stretch of epic proportions.

He neglects this little fact when it comes to the Suns failures: THEY WERE A HORRIFIC DEFENSIVE TEAM. You can go back in time, make all the magical moves in Simmons fantasy, and they'd still lose because they couldn't get stops when it mattered because they'd have zero defensive identity. You can shit on Sarver and Colangelo all you want, but the game comes down to the guys on the hardwood. Many were the people who could consider them "the most talented" team year in and year out. Whose fault is it that they were never "the best?"


I've been struggling with a way to articulate this. Here goes...

We might call them slightly different things, but here are the basic components of basketball "talent":

1. Preparation. (Mental and physical. It doesn't matter who you are; it's pretty hard to play at a high level after slamming cough syrup and Gray Goose all night. This is really broad, and it is meant to cover coaching as well as the players.)

2. Skill. (I am thirty pounds overweight, and I can hit 3s and FTs. In other words, shooting is a skill that has almost nothing to do with athleticism.)

3. Intensity/Psychological Toughness. (I really struggled with what to call this. Players in the NBA are all roughly comparable in terms of skill and athleticism. However, we have all seen "can't miss" prospects crash and burn due to lack of maturity, focus, etc.)

4. Height. (Muggsy Bogues aside, you have to be tall enough to ride.)

5. Athleticism. (The big myth, and the reason why I am bothering to write this.)

We might argue about the exact order of these basic elements of basketball "talent," but that is mine, more or less. (Height should probably be first on everyone's list, but there you go.)

The Suns' public image is a product of overvaluing athleticism. IMHO, athleticism is definitely the least important aspect of basketball talent. Obviously, a player has to reach a certain threshold level to even play in the NBA. (Unless your name is Oliver Miller, apparently.) It may look impressive to have a team that can run for 48 minutes and some players who can jump out of the gym, but it doesn't necessarily win basketball games.

I'm not delusional. Athleticism, especially quickness, is important. However, let's look at Tony Parker for a minute. His speed wouldn't matter if he didn't have the skill to finish those circus shots. In contrast, Stoudemire's clear physical advantages are being squandered: He will not take the time to develop his skill set, and he lacks mental toughness/preparation.

Bottom line: The Suns' main problem has been horrific defense. I would also say that they have been completely misevaluated from the beginning. That is, it's not just a case of Joe Sixpack overvaluing their offense, but it's a complete misunderstanding of what basketball "talent" really is.

Reggie Miller
05-02-2008, 09:19 AM
Wait just a got damn minute here.

So he compares something that was popular and critically acclaimed but which ultimately sucked (Suns) to something critically and generally unappreciated yet of a high quality (Arrested Development)?

He actually has it backwards there.

I would compare the Suns to:

The Macarena
http://www.bbc.co.uk/cambridgeshire/content/images/2006/05/30/macarena_460x192.jpg

Betamax
http://www.hrrc.org/Image/betamax.jpg

Numerous promising pharmaceuticals which attained FDA approval but later proven to be bogus or even dangerous.
http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/9908/04/ephedra.safety/story.ephedra.jpg


The Spurs. meanwhile, are under-appreciated in their own time but future generations will come to see their true worth. As it was with

Army of Darkness
http://daw.dyndns.org/images/movies/posters/army%20of%20darkness.jpg


That made my day. Thanks!

RandomGuy
05-02-2008, 09:59 AM
[The Spurs are] brutally efficient.

I agree. Efficiency is something that comes from doing everything with fewer mistakes than everybody else, and that is the Spurs to a T.

Harry Callahan
05-02-2008, 10:17 AM
We appreciate the Spurs and the East Coast West Coast folks trash their many accomplishments. Nothing new.

If these players wore shamrock green and white or blue and gold, they would be legends in the minds of the BS's of the world.

DarrinS
05-02-2008, 10:30 AM
I think Bill Simmons is getting scared. First, his beloved Patriots choke away their "perfect" season. Now, he sees his precious 66-win Celtics go to a game 6 against a number 8 seed that everyone expected would get swept.

He's also bitter that the Spurs got Duncan instead of the Celtics. Remember, the Celtics had the best odds of getting Timmy.

ambchang
05-02-2008, 11:14 AM
I am surprised nobody picked up on it, but he said the Spurs won in 6 in 2005, but actually, the Spurs won in 5, and it wasn't as close a series as he described. There were two really close games, and that was about it.

dbreiden83080
05-02-2008, 11:47 AM
The Suns will barely be remembered. More people will remember Ewings Knicks, Malone's Jazz than the Suns. They are probably on par with Millers Pacers as remembered teams that never won a title. Their footnote in history is they had a HOF PG who could not win a title in the Tim Duncan Era, that's it.

dbreiden83080
05-02-2008, 11:48 AM
I am surprised nobody picked up on it, but he said the Spurs won in 6 in 2005, but actually, the Spurs won in 5, and it wasn't as close a series as he described. There were two really close games, and that was about it.

Spurs choked away game 4 in that one playing shitty down the stretch, that 2005 series should have been a sweep.

Reggie Miller
05-02-2008, 01:05 PM
The Suns will barely be remembered. More people will remember Ewings Knicks, Malone's Jazz than the Suns. They are probably on par with Millers Pacers as remembered teams that never won a title. Their footnote in history is they had a HOF PG who could not win a title in the Tim Duncan Era, that's it.

The Pacers at least made it into the Finals. Otherwise, I agree with you...

Spurminator
05-02-2008, 01:13 PM
I think his premise is fine. People still look back fondly on the 80's Nuggets and Bucks even though they never won anything.

GSH
05-02-2008, 01:24 PM
I think his premise is fine. People still look back fondly on the 80's Nuggets and Bucks even though they never won anything.

That's fine. The difference is you didn't talk about the 80's Pistons as if they ruined the sport because they played differently than the Nuggets and Bucks, and won championships.

Reggie Miller
05-02-2008, 01:41 PM
That's fine. The difference is you didn't talk about the 80's Pistons as if they ruined the sport because they played differently than the Nuggets and Bucks, and won championships.


Game. Set. Match.

Gino
05-02-2008, 02:59 PM
The Pacers at least made it into the Finals. Otherwise, I agree with you...

Eh...Im trying hard to remember the 90s Pacer teams other than Reggie Miller.

Rick Smitts? Was that his name?

The 2000-2002 Kings were much more memorable than any of these teams being mentioned.

It will be even harder to forget these Suns.

Likewise, I don't think anyone who follows basketball will forget Duncan, Ginobili, Parker, Horry and Bowen. Although as Bill pointed out, we won't remember them fondly :P

Gino
05-02-2008, 03:01 PM
I think his premise is fine. People still look back fondly on the 80's Nuggets and Bucks even though they never won anything.

I disagree. The 80s nuggets were a joke. They never seriously contended for a championship.

Spurminator
05-02-2008, 03:02 PM
That's fine. The difference is you didn't talk about the 80's Pistons as if they ruined the sport because they played differently than the Nuggets and Bucks, and won championships.

And in 20 years they won't say that about the Spurs.

You don't think plenty of people, particularly in Boston and LA, hated the Bad Boys' brand of basketball when they were winning?

Reggie Miller
05-02-2008, 04:00 PM
Eh...Im trying hard to remember the 90s Pacer teams other than Reggie Miller.

Rick Smitts? Was that his name?

The 2000-2002 Kings were much more memorable than any of these teams being mentioned.

It will be even harder to forget these Suns.

Likewise, I don't think anyone who follows basketball will forget Duncan, Ginobili, Parker, Horry and Bowen. Although as Bill pointed out, we won't remember them fondly :P


You haven't been a Celtics fan for very long. Check out the head-to-head records between the Pacers and Celtics 1992-2002. You think you would know the name of your own daddies...