Whether you like his politics or not...Dude is a stud

[101A]

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080508/D90H5S3O0.html


WASHINGTON (AP) - From his five years in a North Vietnamese prison camp to his tenure as the Navy's liaison to the Senate, John McCain's Navy record boils down to a series of unadorned paragraphs that bestow upon him some of the nation's top military honors.
The Navy recently released McCain's military record - most of it citations for medals during his Navy career - after a Freedom of Information Act request by The Associated Press.
McCain was awarded a Silver Star Medal for resisting "extreme mental and physical cruelties" inflicted upon him by his captors from late October to early December 1967, the early months of his captivity, according to the citation. The North Vietnamese, according to the Navy, ignored international agreements and tortured McCain "in an attempt to obtain military information and false confessions for propaganda purposes."
McCain, now the Republican Party's likely presidential nominee, was taken prisoner in October 1967 after he was shot down while on a mission over Hanoi. He wasn't freed until March 1973, after the United States signed peace agreements with the North Vietnamese. His captors tortured him and held him in solitary confinement. Still, he declined an offer of early release until those who had been at the prison longer than him were let go.
That decision earned McCain a Navy Commendation Medal. Although McCain was "crippled from serious and ill-treated injuries," he steadfastly refused offers of freedom from those holding him prisoner. "His selfless action served as an example to others and his forthright refusal, by giving emphasis to the insidious nature of such releases, may have prevented a possibly chaotic deterioration in prisoner discipline," the citation says.
McCain attended the U.S. Naval Academy from 1954 to 1958, and was commissioned as an ensign in June of that year. He retired in April 1981 with the rank of captain. In that time he received 17 awards and decorations. Besides the Silver Star Medal, McCain also received the Legion of Merit with a combat "V" and one gold star, a Distinguished Flying Cross and a Bronze Star Medal with a combat "V" and two gold stars.
Several citations mention his achievements either as a prisoner or as a lieutenant commander flying bombing runs off the deck of the USS Oriskany. Some are signed by then-Secretary of the Navy John Warner, who would become a colleague of McCain's in the Senate.
The citations refer to his "accurate ordnance delivery" and his "aggressive and skillful airmanship." He earned his Bronze Star the day before he was shot down, for participating in a mission over an airfield in Phuc Yen, 11 miles north of Hanoi.
The citation for his Distinguished Flying Cross sums up McCain's misfortune the following day:
"Although his aircraft was severely damaged, he continued his bomb delivery pass and released his bombs on the target. When the aircraft would not recover from the dive, Commander McCain was forced to eject over the target."
Years later, as his Navy career approached its end, McCain received the Legion of Merit Medal. By then, his missions were in the halls of Congress as a liaison to the Senate from the Navy's Office of Legislative Affairs.
He was praised for providing Navy leaders "with sage advice and sound judgment for enacting critical legislation during a period of severe fiscal constraint."
The following year, he ran for Congress from Arizona, and won.

[JoeChalupa]

McCain is an American Hero.

[RandomGuy]

How many other candidates can show footage of themselves literally crawling through fire? It doesn't get more macho than that.

(McCain was sitting in his fighter on the deck of an aircraft carrier during a rather nasty accident and fire that was caught by the deck camera)

Sorry couldn't find the footage on youtube, but it is out there somewhere. I saw it during his run for the 2000 GOP nomination.

[RandomGuy]

About 10:50 (local time) on the 29th, while preparations for a second strike were being made near 19°9′5″N, 107°23′5″E,[3] an unguided 5-inch Mk-32 "Zuni" rocket, one of four contained in a LAU-10 underwing rocket pod mounted on a F-4 Phantom II, was accidentally fired due to an electrical power surge during the switch from external power to internal power.

The rocket flew across the flight deck, striking a wing-mounted external fuel tank on an A-4 Skyhawk, either Aircraft No. 405 piloted by LCDR Fred D. White[1] or No. 416 piloted by future Arizona Senator, LCDR John McCain,[4] which was waiting to launch.[3] ...
With his aircraft surrounded by flames, McCain escaped by climbing out of the cockpit, walking down the nose and jumping off the refueling probe.

Below is a 5 minute clip of the incident with narration from either a documentary or a news report:
chuiyXQKw3I

I watched it all the way through, and McCain isn't shown. The video appears to be some kind of analysis of the firefighting on deck after the initial explosion.

[clambake]

How many other candidates can show footage of themselves literally crawling through fire? It doesn't get more macho than that.

(McCain was sitting in his fighter on the deck of an aircraft carrier during a rather nasty accident and fire that was caught by the deck camera)

Sorry couldn't find the footage on youtube, but it is out there somewhere. I saw it during his run for the 2000 GOP nomination.

yeah, the guy is always finding himself in the wrong place. he tends to attract disaster.

[Yonivore]

yeah, the guy is always finding himself in the wrong place. he tends to attract disaster.
Or, he acts in the face of danger.

[Don Quixote]

This is probably McCain's greatest strength. He's definitely not a wuss.

[clambake]

yeah, i'd run from a fire too.

[RandomGuy]

yeah, i'd run from a fire too.

heh, but would you have the stones to sit in the middle of a flying gas tank strapped to thousands of pounds of explosives hurled off a moving runway hundreds of feet too short that is surrounded by sharks in the middle of the ocean?

A bit more risk than *I* would be willing to take.

[101A]

heh, but would you have the stones to sit in the middle of a flying gas tank strapped to thousands of pounds of explosives hurled off a moving runway hundreds of feet too short that is surrounded by sharks in the middle of the ocean?

A bit more risk than *I* would be willing to take.

H.W. did that, as well.

Watched the American Experience special on him; also a very impressive man.

[GaryJohnston]

McCain>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Rambo

[clambake]

i like mccain, as a person and a patriot, but we don't need a guy that requires an education on a speech that he's in the middle of. his thoughts need constant correction. is there a pocket protector big enough for him to carry around little joe? if not, then lets get someone that won't accidentally step into traffic.

[RandomGuy]

H.W. did that, as well.

Watched the American Experience special on him; also a very impressive man.

Oh yeah, I respect the Elder Bush immensely. A genuinely decent guy, despite the "I don't recalls" during the Iran-Contra coverup.

WW2 carriers were immensely more dangerous than modern carriers, especially with the crappy carrier planes that we started the war with. You gotta have some respect for the guys in those tin cans.

... and don't get me started on the abomination that was the Sherman tank. If you ever want to get really pissed off, read about how shitty THAT thing was. :ihit It was mechinically reliable, but that was about it.

But, I digress. :lol

[RandomGuy]

i like mccain, as a person and a patriot, but we don't need a guy that requires an education on a speech that he's in the middle of. his thoughts need constant correction. is there a pocket protector big enough for him to carry around little joe? if not, then lets get someone that won't accidentally step into traffic.


This is a bit unfair, but a valid criticism. McCain should have known better than to repeatedly confuse Al Qaeda with shia dominated Iran.

This bit will be used to beat him about the head in the general, and don't think I won't resurrect my thread on it after the Dems wrap up the nomination.

[clambake]

you think it's that ONE speech? seriously, we don't need a guy that "isn't all there" in the drivers seat.

[RandomGuy]

you think it's that ONE speech? seriously, we don't need a guy that "isn't all there" in the drivers seat.

That particular bit was something he repeated previously a few times.

It is just that particular clip had someone happened to be standing there who knew a bit better than he did (Liebermann).

If you are referring to his age, that is a genuine concern to me, although by far not a deciding/major factor.

His age and past medical problems will end up making his choice for VP a helluva lot more important than it would be otherwise.

[Ocotillo]

Eh, wait until the former POWs for Truth get ahold of him this fall.

[clambake]

Eh, wait until the former POWs for Truth get ahold of him this fall.

songbird?

[RandomGuy]

Eh, wait until the former POWs for Truth get ahold of him this fall.

(wrinkles face in disgust)

Man, politics is not a nice place to be. Can't say that group sits well with me.

[George Gervin's Afro]

I have heard that on the Huffington Post and Daily kos that there are people already saying he was never actually tortured. not only was he not tortured he is actually committed treason while in the custody of the viet cong... And those people are obama's base? Obama is going to get slaughtered in November..

[Yonivore]

Eh, wait until the former POWs for Truth get ahold of him this fall.
Boy, I hope they try.

[Wild Cobra]

This is probably McCain's greatest strength. He's definitely not a wuss.

I agree. Among the candidates, he is the olny one who has what it takes to be president. I just cannot tolerate his stance on some very important items. Otherwise, I have complete admiration for him. He is too liberal for me to want him as president.

[Nbadan]

McCain was a terrible pilot, which is why he got shot down in Vietnam...rumor is he wrecked or nearly wrecked three planes just in flight school.....not only that, sources say that he collaborated with the Vietnamese while in prison camp...

[Wild Cobra]

McCain was a terrible pilot, which is why he got shot down in Vietnam...rumor is he wrecked or nearly wrecked three planes just in flight school.....not only that, sources say that he collaborated with the Vietnamese while in prison camp...

Yep, only Propagana Dan believes rumors.

[clambake]

WMD's was a rumor. anybody buy that shit?

[Nbadan]

Insane in the membrane...


iBbjFMklgYE

[George Gervin's Afro]

McCain was a terrible pilot, which is why he got shot down in Vietnam...rumor is he wrecked or nearly wrecked three planes just in flight school.....not only that, sources say that he collaborated with the Vietnamese while in prison camp...

:rolleyes

[Yonivore]

McCain was a terrible pilot, which is why he got shot down in Vietnam...rumor is he wrecked or nearly wrecked three planes just in flight school.....not only that, sources say that he collaborated with the Vietnamese while in prison camp...
God, please let there be more Nbadan's during the General Election...and, Lord, let them attach themselves to Obama.

[Yonivore]

Insane in the membrane...


iBbjFMklgYE
Yes! More of this please...More! More! More!

[clambake]

sorry yoni, i doubt obama would tolerate bush tactics.

i thought you wanted hillary?

[RobinsontoDuncan]

i think dan was being sarcastic

[Yonivore]

sorry yoni, i doubt obama would tolerate bush tactics.
We'll see what he's capable of.


i thought you wanted hillary?
I just want the nominee bloody and bruised.

With all his troubles and the campaign from Hell dragging on, it's almost irrelevant who the Democrats put up.

[clambake]

I just want the nominee bloody and bruised.

With all his troubles and the campaign from Hell dragging on, it's almost irrelevant who the Democrats put up.

this is a valid point.

soon enough, mccain will be constantly in the news. you think he'll be able to remember what day it is?

[Yonivore]

this is a valid point.

soon enough, mccain will be constantly in the news. you think he'll be able to remember what day it is?
Yep.

[Wild Cobra]

Originally Posted by clambake

this is a valid point.

soon enough, mccain will be constantly in the news. you think he'll be able to remember what day it is?
Yep.

I agree to. At least he doesn't have lies he cannot keep strait like the democrats.

[boutons_]

Great fluff piece.

It didn't mention that his fellow captors called him SongBird :lol

http://www.pensitoreview.com/2008/02/17/in-1992-pows-accused-mccain-of-collaborating-with-vietnamese/

Sounds like he wasn't a hero to, or even popular with, to his fellow prisoners. The truth is impossible to know, esp when the military is involved.

Becoming imprisoned and tortured is NOT a choice, NOT a willed, courageous decision, no matter how admirable the prisoner conducts himself. Had Songbird gone Rambo on the VN and busted his and his buddies' asses out, wow, a Real Hero. An Audie Murphy kind of hero.

For me, a hero faces danger and a difficult decision and makes a courageous decision to risks his well-being to escape or nullify the danger for himself and/or others.

Many people are imprisoned against their will, often suffer degrading treatment from usually sadistic guards and other prisonser, aka torture, and then released (and usually not compensated) because they were found innocent. Are these falsely imprisoned, abuse people heros?

I don't see the difference between the two. One is serving legally as a US citizen, the other is serving in the military. Both are imprisoned and released, but only the military guy is a "hero". imo, that's an insult to the civilian, and it's a very soft, non-discriminating, wide definition of "hero", so wide as to make it meaningless.

Sorry, McFlopPanderKeating, you're not a hero to Boutons. :lol

And you won't be President, either. :lol

Ron Paul has politcal guts. McFlopPanderKeating is a 2-bit political whore totally identified with and supportive of all the disasters of dubya's failed presidency. Iraq will defeat McFlopPanderKeating.

[clambake]

I agree to. At least he doesn't have lies he cannot keep strait like the democrats.

actually, he can't keep anything straight, be it a lie or the truth.

best case scenario is that he doesn't have to speak about anything at all. he should claim laryngitis.

[ballhog]

McCain was a terrible pilot, which is why he got shot down in Vietnam...rumor is he wrecked or nearly wrecked three planes just in flight school.....not only that, sources say that he collaborated with the Vietnamese while in prison camp...

With that logic, Obama must be an awesome pilot.

[RandomGuy]

I agree to. At least he doesn't have lies he cannot keep strait like the democrats.

straight, as in a direction,

not

strait as in a narrow channel of water

I wasn't gonna say anything, but this is one of your more common mistakes.

[RandomGuy]

I have heard that on the Huffington Post and Daily kos that there are people already saying he was never actually tortured. not only was he not tortured he is actually committed treason while in the custody of the viet cong... And those people are obama's base? Obama is going to get slaughtered in November..

Link?

Huffington might not be a McCain fan, but they aren't stupid.

Daily Kos I take with a grain of salt, but thinking that the nutty left is anyones "base" is a bit like saying that the Westburo Baptist church is the base of the right.

Nuttitude is everywhere, and the internets just give them a place to bukkake everybody with stupid, if I may put it less than politely.

[ClingingMars]

Eh, wait until the former POWs for Truth get ahold of him this fall.

liberals will pay anyone to say anything.

- Mars

[Don Quixote]

Well ... we'll see how nutty Obama's base will be come August at the Convention.

Maybe they'll prove me wrong ...

[RandomGuy]

liberals will pay anyone to say anything.

- Mars
This might have more sting if one didn't know about the Swiftboat people.

That nasty smear had Rove's greasy fingerprints all over it.

[RandomGuy]

Well ... we'll see how nutty Obama's base will be come August at the Convention.

Maybe they'll prove me wrong ...

I have not met any Obama people who are wierdly obsessive about the guy.

For the most part they have been pretty intelligent, and educated, especially the people who worked for his campaign that I got to meet during the caucus process.

I can't speak for 100% of the population that votes for him, but I just don't see much basis for the "most people who support him think he is a messiah" bit.

I know that this is election year spin for the most part, but that doesn't make it any less unfair or inaccurate.

Sadly it just makes it par for the course in US politics. :depressed

[Don Quixote]

Yeah, let's not talk about doubtful things. Kerry's after-war record spoke all we need to know about him. I, anyway, didn't need the Swifties to tell me about Kerry's smear on the soldiers and sailors in Vietnam after he had come back. Shoot, the guy went in front of Congress and told them a bunch of hooey!

So, even if the Swifties were liars, it didn't make any difference to me. Let's line up what we know about Kerry (for instance) with what we know about McCain, and compare, and leave the veterans' groups out of it. Seems fair.

[RandomGuy]

Yeah, let's not talk about doubtful things. Kerry's after-war record spoke all we need to know about him. I, anyway, didn't need the Swifties to tell me about Kerry's smear on the soldiers and sailors in Vietnam after he had come back. Shoot, the guy went in front of Congress and told them a bunch of hooey!

So, even if the Swifties were liars, it didn't make any difference to me. Let's line up what we know about Kerry (for instance) with what we know about McCain, and compare, and leave the veterans' groups out of it. Seems fair.

Meh, I read the whole transcript of Kerry's testimony.

If one puts what he said in the context of the whole, his remarks were that US foreign policy and military strategy was probably illegal in many aspects, and that warzones have a dehumanizing affect on people in them.

Neither of which really is a "smear" on our servicemembers, just uncomfortable truths that many don't want to admit.

[Yonivore]

straight, as in a direction,

not

strait as in a narrow channel of water

I wasn't gonna say anything, but this is one of your more common mistakes.
Who knew you were keeping track?

[Yonivore]

This might have more sting if one didn't know about the Swiftboat people.

That nasty smear had Rove's greasy fingerprints all over it.
Really? How? Just because the Left thinks Rove was omniscient and evil doesn't mean he's either or that he manipulated the Swiftboat Veterans.

On the other hand, he would have be a poor political advisor to the President had he not exploited the advantage they gave him.

Look, nobody forced Kerry to conduct himself in Vietnam the way he did and then come back and lie about his exploits -- on top of demonizing his comrades before the U.S. Congress. Nobody told him to throw someone elses medals over the White House fence.

I'm surprised the Left isn't blaming Rove for the current Democrat Primary debacle.

[Don Quixote]

I have not met any Obama people who are wierdly obsessive about the guy.


I happen know a few here at ST to speak of him as the Second Coming. Their estrogen levels spike whenever one even dares to question him.

But you, as a reasonable and intelligent black Asian female, probably hang around reasonable people yourself. So it's no surprise that you've not met too many Obamaniacs. And I suspect that, proportionally speaking, the Obama cultists are few in number compared to the reasonable ones.

I actually stick to the "issues" when discussing his candidacy: his foreign and domestic agenda, his associations, and what he wants to do economically. I admit that I am a bit put off by his grand airy visions of a new post-partisan, post-racial era of politics,under the gasseous moniker of "change," when he has proven (thanks Hillary! :toast) to be anything but. And, as for his grand, government-driven ideas of peace and prosperity for all -- no thanks, not interested.

[ClingingMars]

Meh, I read the whole transcript of Kerry's testimony.

If one puts what he said in the context of the whole, his remarks were that US foreign policy was probably illegal, and that warzones have a dehumanizing affect on people in them.

Neither of which really is a "smear" on our servicemembers, just uncomfortable truths that many don't want to admit.

TFwP1bfYIMc

- Mars

[Don Quixote]

There's really no reason for me to rely upon McCain's war record to make my decision for Pres. What I now know about Obama is enough. So, no offense, RandomDude, you're a great guy, but .... what are you thinking? Are you crazy??

[Yonivore]

I happen know a few here at ST to speak of him as the Second Coming. Their estrogen levels spike whenever one even dares to question him.

But you, as a reasonable and intelligent black Asian female, probably hang around reasonable people yourself. So it's no surprise that you've not met too many Obamaniacs. And I suspect that, proportionally speaking, the Obama cultists are few in number compared to the reasonable ones.

I actually stick to the "issues" when discussing his candidacy: his foreign and domestic agenda, his associations, and what he wants to do economically. I admit that I am a bit put off by his grand airy visions of a new post-partisan, post-racial era of politics,under the gasseous moniker of "change," when he has proven (thanks Hillary! :toast) to be anything but. And, as for his grand, government-driven ideas of peace and prosperity for all -- no thanks, not interested.
Well put, DQ.

[RandomGuy]

Yeah, let's not talk about doubtful things. Kerry's after-war record spoke all we need to know about him. I, anyway, didn't need the Swifties to tell me about Kerry's smear on the soldiers and sailors in Vietnam after he had come back. Shoot, the guy went in front of Congress and told them a bunch of hooey!

So, even if the Swifties were liars, it didn't make any difference to me. Let's line up what we know about Kerry (for instance) with what we know about McCain, and compare, and leave the veterans' groups out of it. Seems fair.


Around the swiftboat bit, I got into it with a Marine who was bashing Kerry for some of his tactics when he was in command of his boat during a firefight.

Kerry's boat came under RPG fire/ambush from the riverbank, and he turned his boat into the ambush, charged in and broke it up. The marine at first said this was a stupid thing to do.

Now, being an analytical sort, I looked at this tactically. The boat is about 5 times longer than it was wide. Meaning that if you turn towards the people who are firing at you, you are instantly a 5 times smaller target, AND you can bring to bear the big ass front turret machine guns.

This tactical improvisation was figured out after a few years of experience in Vietnam and Kerry had read about it, even though it wasn't official doctrine at the time.

He used some common sense over doing it "by the book" and, unsurprisingly it worked.

The marine was saying "it was against doctrine", he was undisciplined, etc, etc.

After he said this a couple of times, I asked him what he was trained to do tactically in case of his unit being ambushed.

US military training for infantry is that you don't sit in the freaking kill zone waiting to get your ass shot. You charge the ambushers as fast as possible to break up the ambush and get out of the prepared kill zone. At least that was what I was taught by the US army. I made the assumption, that later turned out to be correct, that the marine infantry doctrine was identical.

After I asked him that question he had nothing else to say.

Shit like this has made me convinced that my policy of lmost never second guessing anyone, McCain, Kerry, or whoever, who was under fire for what they did under fire.

People should be given great leeway for decisions made in the heat of combat.

[Don Quixote]

Oh I agree. I never went after Kerry for what he did during his short time in Vietnam.

I, and most of my veterans friends, objected to his post-Vietnam behavior, smearing the conduct of the troops, throwing his medals over the wall, etc.

[Yonivore]

Around the swiftboat bit, I got into it with a Marine who was bashing Kerry for some of his tactics when he was in command of his boat during a firefight.

Kerry's boat came under RPG fire/ambush from the riverbank, and he turned his boat into the ambush, charged in and broke it up. The marine at first said this was a stupid thing to do.

Now, being an analytical sort, I looked at this tactically. The boat is about 5 times longer than it was wide. Meaning that if you turn towards the people who are firing at you, you are instantly a 5 times smaller target, AND you can bring to bear the big ass front turret machine guns.

This tactical improvisation was figured out after a few years of experience in Vietnam and Kerry had read about it, even though it wasn't official doctrine at the time.

He used some common sense over doing it "by the book" and, unsurprisingly it worked.

The marine was saying "it was against doctrine", he was undisciplined, etc, etc.

After he said this a couple of times, I asked him what he was trained to do tactically in case of his unit being ambushed.

US military training for infantry is that you don't sit in the freaking kill zone waiting to get your ass shot. You charge the ambushers as fast as possible to break up the ambush and get out of the prepared kill zone. At least that was what I was taught by the US army. I made the assumption, that later turned out to be correct, that the marine infantry doctrine was identical.

After I asked him that question he had nothing else to say.

Shit like this has made me convinced that my policy of lmost never second guessing anyone, McCain, Kerry, or whoever, who was under fire for what they did under fire.

People should be given great leeway for decisions made in the heat of combat.
I question the veracity of that story and it's more about how he racked up his three Purple Hearts (two of which were over injuries that most men would ignore in the first place) and bugged out after being there only a few months.

Kerry is an opportunist. He asked for Swiftboat duty because he thought it was safe -- oops. After than, he spent his time trying to find a way to get the hell out. Can't blame him but, that doesn't make him any kind of hero.

[clambake]

we've since learned that deferment is safe.

[PlayoffEx-static]

I'm in the Chris Rock school on this: why should we entrust the future to McCain when he won't even be here?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

i like mccain, as a person and a patriot, but we don't need a guy that requires an education on a speech that he's in the middle of. his thoughts need constant correction. is there a pocket protector big enough for him to carry around little joe? if not, then lets get someone that won't accidentally step into traffic.

So you want to vote for a guy who works religiously on his soundbites, plays on his strength as an orator, but has no practical experience and has announced policy plans that would further bankrupt this country?

[Don Quixote]

Wow ... there's an argument we've never heard before.

The Republicans ... they're stupid. Eisenhower? Stupid. Reagan? Stupid, and senile. Bush I, stupid. Gingrich, stupid and evil. Bush II, really stupid and homicidal. McCain, stupid and loses his bearings. And the ones who vote for them are stupid, and cling to guns and religion.

The Democrats, though, are the smartest people since King Solomon. Stevenson was brilliant. JFK and RFK were child prodigies. McGovern, a great man. Mondale, very smart and stood up to Reagan. Dukakis, too smart to get elected. Bill Clinton, a genius. Al Gore, saved the environment, created the internet. Hillary, possibly the smartest women to ever walk the earth. And St. Barack ... wow ... just wow.

[ChumpDumper]

Eisenhower was very underrated as president. Reagan was getting senile in his second term and even tried to use it to cover his own ass in Iran-Contra. Bush I? Solid if unspectacular, very intelligent nonetheless. Gingrich? Outsmarted himself, better at getting power than actually wielding or holding it. Bush II? Horrible, horrible judgment. Just the worst.

For the Democrats these days -- Obama is the only one over whom you are obsessing, so I'll stick with him. There is no doubting his intelligence, but he is really green and probably not ready for the presidency all things considered. Given all that -- what does that say about the current Republican candidate and the latest Republican administration that has given an African-American dilettante a fighting chance at winning it all?

[Ignignokt]

Eisenhower was very underrated as president. Reagan was getting senile in his second term and even tried to use it to cover his own ass in Iran-Contra. Bush I? Solid if unspectacular, very intelligent nonetheless. Gingrich? Outsmarted himself, better at getting power than actually wielding or holding it. Bush II? Horrible, horrible judgment. Just the worst.

For the Democrats these days -- Obama is the only one over whom you are obsessing, so I'll stick with him. There is no doubting his intelligence, but he is really green and probably not ready for the presidency all things considered. Given all that -- what does that say about the current Republican candidate and the latest Republican administration that has given an African-American dilettante a fighting chance at winning it all?

The current Repub candidate's stigma comes from the latter and not from his own capabilities. Obama has had favorable news coverage minus Rev Wright saga, so it's not hard to comprehend why he's seen as a strong opponent.

That said, people base his smarts on written speeches, when obama improvises like bush does, you see the same results. Now as to his administration capablities, he has none that we know.

I would like to see obama actually get tough debate questions, and have a debate.

Obama seemed to chicken for hillary. i'll pass.

[ChumpDumper]

Ah, the old "Blame the Media" fallback.

Sorry, the press loves McCain as much if not more than Obama. In fact if you are going to try to play that card, you have to admit that that was McCain's biggest advantage over his Republican competitors and the reason he is the candidate. I don't think it's that big an influence, but if you do that's your business.

[ClingingMars]

Ah, the old "Blame the Media" fallback.

Sorry, the press loves McCain as much if not more than Obama. In fact if you are going to try to play that card, you have to admit that that was McCain's biggest advantage over his Republican competitors and the reason he is the candidate. I don't think it's that big an influence, but if you do that's your business.

the drive-bys love McCain because he is a moderate. but they still favor whoever's coming out of the Democratic primary.

- Mars

[Don Quixote]

Mars ... you are quoting the trolls again. Haven't we gone over this?

But, since it's out there ... there is no way that the MSM, despite their basic respect for McCain, doesn't campaign actively for the D-nominee this fall. None. They turned on Hillary when the Chosen One emerged, and they will abandon their cordial treatment of McCain when the general election rolls around. Count on it.

[ChumpDumper]

So you have a built-in excuse for the fall.

I can always count on that.

[Yonivore]

There is no doubting his [Obama's] intelligence,...
I'm sorry, anyone who is a chain-smoker this day and age; I doubt their intelligence.

That right there is a non-partisan statement. If you smoke, you are a fucking idiot.

[ChumpDumper]

I'm sorry, anyone who is a chain-smoker this day and age; I doubt their intelligence.

That right there is a non-partisan statement. If you smoke, you are a fucking idiot.You'd find a way to accept it if he was Republican, just like a good partisan would.

[Yonivore]

You'd find a way to accept it if he was Republican, just like a good partisan would.
No, you'd be wrong.

[Wild Cobra]

Ah, the old "Blame the Media" fallback.

Sorry, the press loves McCain as much if not more than Obama. In fact if you are going to try to play that card, you have to admit that that was McCain's biggest advantage over his Republican competitors and the reason he is the candidate. I don't think it's that big an influence, but if you do that's your business.

Remember you said that when the media becomes accomplices in McCain bashing... It will happen once the primary process is over. Mark my words!

[ChumpDumper]

No, you'd be wrong.So Yoni declares the Republican House Minority leader is a fucking idiot.

[ChumpDumper]

Remember you said that when the media becomes accomplices in McCain bashing... It will happen once the primary process is over. Mark my words!There will be negative stories about both candidates.

Mark my words.

[Yonivore]

So Yoni declares the Republican House Minority leader is a fucking idiot.
If he's a chain-smoker, yep. As much of one as Obama.

[ChumpDumper]

If he's a chain-smoker, yep. As much of one as Obama.How about folks who get addicted to OxyContin?

Alcohol?

[Yonivore]

How about folks who get addicted to OxyContin?

Alcohol?
And, don't kick it? Yep and yep, idiots. Somebody like that running for President?

[ChumpDumper]

So only when a person is actively addicted, he is an idiot?

[Yonivore]

So only when a person is actively addicted, he is an idiot?
Yeah, it's pretty smart to quit addictions...don't you think?

[ChumpDumper]

That wasn't the question.

[boutons_]

"McCain's war record"

:lol :lol :lol

[Yonivore]

That wasn't the question.
Well, addictions aren't the only thing that makes a person an idiot. Hell, addiction may just be a symptom of deeper idiocy. What's your point?

I stand by my statement. If Obama, or anyone else, is still buying cigarettes, sticking them in their mouths, lighting them, and sucking on them; they.are.an.idiot.

[ChumpDumper]

Well, addictions aren't the only thing that makes a person an idiot. Hell, addiction may just be a symptom of deeper idiocy. What's your point?You think Boehner has deeper idiocy. Ok.

[Yonivore]

You think Boehner has deeper idiocy. Ok.
What do you want? If the guy is a smoker, he's an idiot. That's a stupid behavior.

[ChumpDumper]

What do you want? If the guy is a smoker, he's an idiot. That's a stupid behavior.This is the extent of your nonplagiarist posting.

Stick to thievery.

[Yonivore]

This is the extent of your nonplagiarist posting.

Stick to thievery.
I intend to, it's some of the more intelligent content posted here.

[Don Quixote]

Either way, back on topic, McCain's opponents will have a devil of a time arguing against his war record. The guy gave 5½ good years of his life trying to beat the bad guys. And despite his often questionable judgment on some domestic affairs, he is without question the most loyal, and most dedicated to national security, out of the three contenders.

We don't have to worry about his best friends. Or his pastor. Or who he'd "negotiate" with. Or who he's pardoned. Or what he was doing in the 60's. When the Clintons, and Obama's friends, were doing drugs and trying to bring down our culture, McCain was a little busy at the time.

It's just not a case his opponents can make. He's clearly a man of integrity and character.

[ChumpDumper]

I intend to, it's some of the more intelligent content posted here.Yes, you enjoy passing yourself off as something you aren't. You're a liar and a fraud.

[ChumpDumper]

Either way, back on topic, McCain's opponents will have a devil of a time arguing against his war record. The guy gave 5½ good years of his life trying to beat the bad guys. And despite his often questionable judgment on some domestic affairs, he is without question the most loyal, and most dedicated to national security, out of the three contenders.

We don't have to worry about his best friends. Or his pastor. Or who he'd "negotiate" with. Or who he's pardoned. Or what he was doing in the 60's. When the Clintons, and Obama's friends, were doing drugs and trying to bring down our culture, McCain was a little busy at the time.

It's just not a case his opponents can make. He's clearly a man of integrity and character.Yes, it's quite an indictment on the Republicans and their years of rule that he could actually lose this election.

You guys fucked up that badly.

[Yonivore]

Yes, you enjoy passing yourself off as something you aren't. You're a liar and a fraud.
I've never lied about it. You should really get past that and, oh, I don't know, try and respond to some of the points being made. That's why I post them.

But, hey, do what you like.

[ChumpDumper]

I've never lied about it.Posting without quoting or attributing is lying.
You should really get past thatGo fuck yourself, liar.
and, oh, I don't know, try and respond to some of the points being made. That's why I post them.

But, hey, do what you like.You like lying. I like pointing out your lies. If you don't like it, stop lying.

[Don Quixote]

Yoni, your troll appears angry. What do you do when he gets this way?

[ChumpDumper]

Yoni, your troll appears angry. What do you do when he gets this way?I'm having fun. Being exposed as a liar drives Yoni nuts. All this douchebag ever needed to do was post links to articles. He prefers lying and passing them off as his own.

[Yonivore]

Posting without quoting or attributing is lying.
Okay, but I've never denied it when asked.


Go fuck yourself, liar.
No thanks.


You like lying. I like pointing out your lies. If you don't like it, stop lying.
Uh, I don't care. Man, you shoot high, don't'cha?

[Yonivore]

Yoni, your troll appears angry. What do you do when he gets this way?

Bat him around like a ball of yarn, fart, and go to bed.

[Don Quixote]

Wow ... someone needs his pills!

[ChumpDumper]

Uh, I don't care.Sure you don't. That's why you're still posting about it.

[Yonivore]

Sure you don't. That's why you're still posting about it.

Well, you are still being a ball of yarn. Want me to leave it alone? I can do that too.

You're never happy, I put you on ignore and you whine, I respond and you whine, I admit to everything of which you accuse me (if true) and you're not happy. You can't be pleased...I feel for your family.

[Yonivore]

Wow ... someone needs his pills!
He usually devolves like this when he's lost the argument or lost track of what the argument is.

It's sometimes amusing but, usually, it just get's tiresome and sophomoric.

Obama isn't being Reaganesque...he's being Carteresque. Chumpy has a hard time differentiating. Voters, I trust, won't have the same problem.

[ChumpDumper]

Well, you are still being a ball of yarn. Want me to leave it alone? I can do that too.

You're never happy, I put you on ignore and you whine, I respond and you whine, I admit to everything of which you accuse me (if true) and you're not happy. You can't be pleased...I feel for your family.I simply called you a pussy for ignoring me. Don Quixote is a pussy for putting people on ignore too. It's a bitch move, plain and simple.

I enjoy calling you a pussy and a liar because that's what you are. I feel sorry for your family if you are this kind of a pussy and a liar to them. If you don't care, you sure have a funny way of showing it.

[Yonivore]

I simply called you a pussy for ignoring me. Don Quixote is a pussy for putting people on ignore too. It's a bitch move, plain and simple.

I enjoy calling you a pussy and a liar because that's what you are. I feel sorry for your family if you are this kind of a pussy and a liar to them. If you don't care, you sure have a funny way of showing it.

I see. Well, glad you got that off your chest. Hope you feel better.

[ChumpDumper]

Obama isn't being Reaganesque...he's being Carteresque. Chumpy has a hard time differentiating. Voters, I trust, won't have the same problem.Reagan sold missiles to Iranians.

[Yonivore]

Reagan sold missiles to Iranians.
So, Obama is going to sell missiles to Iran?

[ChumpDumper]

So, Obama is going to sell missiles to Iran?Were you for that sale back then? Are you still?

[Yonivore]

Is he?

Hey, you're the one saying he's acting like Reagan.

[ChumpDumper]

Were you for that sale back then? Are you still?

[Yonivore]

Were you for that sale?

I wasn't briefed and my input wasn't sought...at the time, I had no opinion since I was unaware.

[ChumpDumper]

I wasn't briefed and my input wasn't sought...at the time, I had no opinion since I was unaware.Do you have an opinion now?

Are you briefed regularly on foreign relations?

Has your input ever been sought by a US president?

[Don Quixote]

Well, this thread went downhill. All it takes, I guess, is one person with a chip on his shoulder and a computer to ruin a perfectly good thread.

Yoni, Do they let your troll around other people?

I'm more than happy to continue discussing politics and whatever. But I only do it with adults. If I block people, it's not because of their misguided or ill-informed opinions. It's because they break the implicit agreement to be civil necessary when discussing things of this kind.

I am under no obligation to communicate with anyone that I choose not to. If someone is rude or juvenile, I'll happily block him and move on, and be completely within my rights. Why should I communicate with losers? There are plenty of great people at ST.

[Don Quixote]

Obama = Reagan? That's a laugher!

[Yonivore]

Do you have an opinion now?
Nope. Particular if you want me to based it on your version of events.


Are you briefed regularly on foreign relations?
No, why would I be? Do you regularly discuss 20 year old issues as if everyone is sufficently apprised of the facts to make a snap opinion?


Has your input ever been sought by a US president?
Not as President, no.

[ChumpDumper]

Well, this thread went downhill. All it takes, I guess, is one person with a chip on his shoulder and a computer to ruin a perfectly good thread.

Yoni, Do they let your troll around other people?

I'm more than happy to continue discussing politics and whatever. But I only do it with adults. If I block people, it's not because of their misguided or ill-informed opinions. It's because they break the implicit agreement to be civil necessary when discussing things of this kind.

I am under no obligation to communicate with anyone that I choose not to. If someone is rude or juvenile, I'll happily block him and move on, and be completely within my rights. Why should I communicate with losers? There are plenty of great people at ST.Quit whining. Just don't read my posts if you can't take it.

[Yonivore]

Well, this thread went downhill. All it takes, I guess, is one person with a chip on his shoulder and a computer to ruin a perfectly good thread.
That's Chump's speciality.


Yoni, Do they let your troll around other people?
Hell if I know.


I'm more than happy to continue discussing politics and whatever. But I only do it with adults. If I block people, it's not because of their misguided or ill-informed opinions. It's because they break the implicit agreement to be civil necessary when discussing things of this kind.

I am under no obligation to communicate with anyone that I choose not to. If someone is rude or juvenile, I'll happily block him and move on, and be completely within my rights. Why should I communicate with losers? There are plenty of great people at ST.
Yeah, I do the same except when I'm in the mood.

[Yonivore]

Quit whining. Just don't read my posts if you can't take it.
Tell me, Chump; what's the difference in ignoring your posts and putting you on ignore?

[ChumpDumper]

Nope.Of course. You don't have an opinion of your own on anything.


No, why would I be? Do you regularly discuss 20 year old issues as if everyone is sufficently apprised of the facts to make a snap opinion?I'm sure you can Google someone else's opinion and pass it off as your own.



Not as President, no.Which President asked for your input on foreign relations when he wasn't president?

[ChumpDumper]

Tell me, Chump; what's the difference in ignoring your posts and putting you on ignore?DQ has proven they are not the same thing.

[Yonivore]

Of course. You don't have an opinion of your own on anything.
That's not true.


I'm sure you can Google someone else's opinion and pass it off as your own.
Particularly if I agreed with it.


Which President asked for your input on foreign relations when he wasn't president?
Your question didn't mention foreign relations.

[Don Quixote]

At least Chump is a funny troll, sometimes. He hangs around to catch the criticism and make himself look crazier/more stupid than the previous post. So I hold him in somewhat higher esteem than some of the others. When they get personal or unable to answer the questions (or resort to "you're just generally full of crap"), then I block them.

Croutons and BasketballDan, on the other hand, take their dump on this board, and are long gone before any criticism gets here. They're no fun, except after the fact.

[Yonivore]

DQ has proven they are not the same thing.

No, they're not. I've done both. The advantage to putting you on ignore is that it economized space and saves me the trouble of having to scroll past your nonsense.

[ChumpDumper]

That's not true.Sure it is.



Particularly if I agreed with it.Particularly if you could pass it off as your own.



Your question didn't mention foreign relations.If you can't keep what's being discussed, that's your problem.

[ChumpDumper]

No, they're not. I've done both. The advantage to putting you on ignore is that it economized space and saves me the trouble of having to scroll past your nonsense.Then why are you asking? One can do both. DQ isn't.

[Don Quixote]

Um ... I only have to read the nonsense because other posters quote it. I thought I went over this with them ...

Oh well, you do the best you can.

I insulated my house to keep out the noise from cars rolling through with the rap blaring. Sometimes, especially if the cars have the speakers turned out, I still hear some of it through my well-insulated walls. Who do these thugs think they are? But what can I do? Just deal with it, I guess.

[Yonivore]

Then why are you asking? One can do both. DQ isn't.
I wanted to see if you knew the difference. But, again, I had to take you to school.

[Yonivore]

Um ... I only have to read the nonsense because other posters quote it. I thought I went over this with them ...

Oh well, you do the best you can.

I insulated my house to keep out the noise from cars rolling through with the rap blaring. Sometimes, especially if the cars have the speakers turned out, I still catch the drivel. But what can I do? Just deal with it.
Or not. We all have choices.

[ChumpDumper]

Um ... I only have to read the nonsense because other posters quote it. I thought I went over this with them ...You don't HAVE to read it, dumbass.
Oh well, you do the best you can.You just whine.


I insulated my house to keep out the noise from cars rolling through with the rap blaring. Sometimes, especially if the cars have the speakers turned out, I still catch the drivel. But what can I do? Just deal with it.You mean you don't pull up and whine to them? I'm sure they would be understanding.

[Yonivore]

Sure it is.
No, it's not.


Particularly if you could pass it off as your own.
No, particularly if I agreed with it. I could pass off stuff with which I don't agree, so that doesn't really enter into the equation.


If you can't keep what's being discussed, that's your problem.
It was a separate question. You haven't exactly stuck with the topic, either.

Care to return to Obama wanting to sit down with our enemies, with no pre-conditions?

[ChumpDumper]

Care to return to Obama wanting to sit down with our enemies, with no pre-conditions?If it's in our interests, we will -- just like always.

Non issue.

[Don Quixote]

Look, free country, freedom of speech, you have the right to type or say whatever you want. But we're not obligated to listen to or read what you say.

And I don't really care what some strange person on the other end of the internet says or thinks about me. And I suspect that my conservative friend doesn't either. Called me a wuss. So what? Sons Fan call us everything in the book, and what difference does it make? None. Your insults are not even worth the time it takes for the words to make their way from the screen to my eyes.

I'm only interested in discussing things with adults. If you want to stop with the personal stuff and stick to the discussion, then, great, we can work that. But until then, I will ignore you and every other troll here.

[Yonivore]

If it's in our interests, we will -- just like always.

Non issue.
A non-issue for you.

It is never in our interest for the President of the United States to commit to unconditional meetings with our enemies. It's as stupid as smoking.

[ChumpDumper]

Look, free country, freedom of speech, you have the right to type or say whatever you want. But we're not obligated to listen to or read what you say.Then don't.

[ChumpDumper]

A non-issue for you.

It is never in our interest for the President of the United States to commit to unconditional meetings with our enemies.You think presidents are contractually obligated to do everything they say they during a campaign?

You're an idiot.

[Yonivore]

You think presidents are contractually obligated to do everything they say they during a campaign?

You're an idiot.
No, but I do think when they say stupid shit, they should be called on it.

You don't think he needs to explain what he meant by his statement? Fine. Again, I'm trusting the majority of voters really care about what he means by this.

[Don Quixote]

Yoni, Can you imagine Pres. Golden Child in heavy negotiations with Hamas, Hezbollah, and Ahmed-booby-jab, and, just when things get tense, he says,

"I gotta go outside for a second." And he pulls out some Hack! cigarettes.

Or, can you imagine him in the Oval Office after Iran has launched a strike on Israel. And, while contemplating whether or not to nuke Iran, he discovers that he's out of cigarettes?

It would take a BIG man not to push that red button right then and there.

[ChumpDumper]

No, but I do think when they say stupid shit, they should be called on it.

You don't think he needs to explain what he meant by his statement? Fine. Again, I'm trusting the majority of voters really care about what he means by this.You still support the Bush administration after its negotiating with North Korea and paying off Sunni insurgents.

[Don Quixote]

No, but I do think when they say stupid things, they should be called on it.

You don't think he needs to explain what he meant by his statement? Fine. Again, I'm trusting the majority of voters really care about what he means by this.

Yeah, St. Barack has shown a tendency to monkey around with words since he's been campaigning. Like I said before, he's a full-fledged postmodern -- words may not necessary mean what they mean, but more how YOU feel they should mean. Hence the word-parsing over the NAFTA matter and Canada, his non-apology over Wright, etc.

I suspect that, to most Americans, words mean what they mean. And when the Golden Child says he's going to meet with Hugo, I take that to mean, "He's going to meet with Hugo."

[ChumpDumper]

Yoni, Can you imagine Pres. Golden Child in heavy negotiations with Hamas, Hezbollah, and Ahmed-booby-jab, and, just when things get tense, he says,

"I gotta go outside for a second." And he pulls out some Hack! cigarettes.Maybe they smoke too. They could share a hookah and pray to Mecca during the breaks.


Or, can you imagine him in the Oval Office after Iran has launched a strike on Israel. And, while contemplating whether or not to nuke Iran, he discovers that he's out of cigarettes?The tobacco lobby will make sure that never happens.

[Don Quixote]

Or, can you imagine him in the Oval Office after Iran has launched a strike on Israel. And, while contemplating whether or not to nuke Iran, he discovers that he's out of cigarettes?

It would take a BIG man not to push that red button right then and there.



Then again, could we imagine a plausible scenario that would have the Messiah actually in control of nuclear weapons? If he's elected, he's more likely to disarm them and give the plutonium to North Korea than to actually use them on the enemy.

[Yonivore]

You still support the Bush administration after its negotiating with North Korea and paying off Sunni insurgents.
Sure I support this administration, are you an idiot? Where have you been?

I have a problem with the Korean policy and I don't understand everything we've done in Iraq but, again, I'm not privvy to all the information available to the administration and, at the moment, North Korea seems to have halted their nuclear program and we're achieving great gains in Iraq.

[ChumpDumper]

Sure I support this administration, are you an idiot? Where have you been?It was a statement, not a question. You are an idiot.


I have a problem with the Korean policy and I don't understand everything we've done in Iraq but, again, I'm not privvy to all the information available to the administration and, at the moment, North Korea seems to have halted their nuclear program and we're achieving great gains in Iraq.You don't understand what is being done in Iraq, but that lack of knowledge has led you to conclude that great gains are being achieved there. :lmao

[Yonivore]

It was a statement, not a question. You are an idiot.

You don't understand what is being done in Iraq, but that lack of knowledge has led you to conclude that great gains are being achieved there. :lmao
So, where is al Qaeda or the insurgents holding ground?

[ChumpDumper]

So, where is al Qaeda or the insurgents holding ground?What does Al Qaeda's ground have to do with anything?

[Yonivore]

What does Al Qaeda's ground have to do with anything?

Well, we paid Sunni insurgents to fight them instead of us...and, it's worked. Money well spent I'd say.

[ChumpDumper]

Well, we paid Sunni insurgents to fight them instead of us...and, it's worked. Money well spent I'd say.Negotiations with enemies well made. We'll see how long it lasts.

[boutons_]

"with no pre-conditions?"

more swift-boat slime.

Obama and Old McFlopPanderKeating want exactly the same pre-conditions, as they agreed to same bill in Congreas, and as Obama articulated recently.

Obama has no pre-conditions? link?
no, its just right-wing lying.

[ChumpDumper]

What do you want? If the guy is a smoker, he's an idiot. That's a stupid behavior.

http://www.pensitoreview.com/images/photo-rush-limbaugh-cigar.jpg

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42390000/jpg/_42390641_pipe_getty416.jpg

http://www.petrifiedtruth.com/archives/Smoking%20Marine-thumb.jpg

http://www.cigaraficionado.com/Cigar/Graphics/Archives/031705tfranks_feat.jpg

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/graphics/2007/07/19/cnimps219.jpg

Yoni declares all these men idiots.

[PixelPusher]

http://www.whitehouse.org/kids/images/ronny-chesterfield-1.jpg

[BonnerDynasty]

http://www.boxofficeprophets.com/tickermaster/loadimage.cfm?image=returnoftheking.jpg

[boutons_]

"Yoni, Can you imagine Pres. Golden Child in heavy negotiations with Hamas, Hezbollah, and Ahmed-booby-jab,"

Yoni, Can you imagine dubya, even with a teleprompter or radio receiver under his coat :lol, in heavy negotiations with Hamas, Hezbollah, and hmed-booby-jab,

un fucking imaginable.

dubya's too fucking stupid, ignorant, illiterate, unpolitical, inarticulate, all wonderful talents that HUSSEIN! doesn't have.

dubya's diplomatic skills? An intuitive genius able to "look into (Putin's) eyes" :lol

[ClingingMars]

http://www.pensitoreview.com/images/photo-rush-limbaugh-cigar.jpg

Yoni declares all these men idiots.

DEWD! HE GOT A PICTURE OF RUSH SMOKING! OMGGGGG!!!11!!1!

RUNN!!!

- Mars

[ChumpDumper]

DEWD! HE GOT A PICTURE OF RUSH SMOKING! OMGGGGG!!!11!!1!

RUNN!!!

- MarsYes, and Yonivore thinks he is an idiot because of it, along with all the others.

Funny how you consider Rush the most noteworthy. Typical.

[RandomGuy]

Obstruction of justice:

Bad when liberals like Clinton do it.

Good when conservatives like Oliver North does it.

When conservatives do it, they are rewarded with seats in the Senate, and asked for their autograph.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/24/OliverNorthBookSigning.jpg/250px-OliverNorthBookSigning.jpg

Because giving money to people fighting communism always works in our interest:


During the 1980s, the Anti-Communist Contra guerrillas in Nicaragua were described as death squads.[32][33][34] The Contras were considered terrorists by the Marxist Sandinista regime, which alleged that their attacks targeted civilians. The Contras, who received money, training, and arms from the Argentine junta and then the American CIA, mounted raids which targeted northern Nicaragua, destroying military bases, bridges, schools, Clinics and airstrips. They also attempted to weaken and disrupt the enemy regime by frequently kidnapping and assassinating Sandinista officials. A CIA training manual instructed the Contras, under the heading "Selective Use of Violence", to "neutralise carefully selected and planned targets such as court judges, police or state security officials, etc."[35]


By "work in our interest" I mean "turns people off to our cause". Just look at who the Nicaraguans ended up electing when they finally had some honest elections. The same communists that the contras killed so many people for.

Watever it takes to fight communism is GREAT. If a few nuns get in the way, that's fine, right?

[RandomGuy]

(shrugs)

I have long argued for sensible, moral foreign policy.

The fact that what the Contras and their cohorts in El Salvador did, actually ended up HELPING the regimes they sought to bring down is seemingly lost in the shuffle.

Terrorism ultimately turns people against it because of the hypocrisy and violence. Eventually even the most sympathetic man on the street realizes that the violent evil fucks that kill with such abaondon care less about the cause they say they promote than about murdering people.

It happened in Northern Ireland, it happened in Spain, it happened in South America, and it happened in Iraq.

This is why we should think long and hard when we support such groups. It has ALWAYS turned around and bit us in the ass.

[RandomGuy]

If the will of the people, as represented by congress and their silly laws gets in the way, it is simply the right thing to do for conservative administrations to just simply ignore the laws and do what they want anyways. Iran Contra for the Reagan administration, and the Bush administration sidestepping of wiretapping courts support the assertion that conservative administrations don't feel bound by the constitution, and that should scare the bejeepers out of anyone.

Conservatives look the other way when it is something they agree with, and this streak of the "end justifying the means" that runs through conservatism is part of what turns me off about the whole thing.

Liberals have their own streak of this at times, but I have yet to see liberals jump up and vote for convicted felons.

[clambake]

regarding N. Ireland, you're a little off. i'm not criticizing you, however, you can't put your faith in words that are written from others.

the acts of violence made the "cause" morph into a different animal. you have to consider the very same people were arming all sides.

[RandomGuy]

regarding N. Ireland, you're a little off. i'm not criticizing you, however, you can't put your faith in words that are written from others.

the acts of violence made the "cause" morph into a different animal. you have to consider the very same people were arming all sides.

It was always my impression after the Omagh bomb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omagh_bombing) that some real impetus was put behind the ultimately sucessful disarmament talks.

That horrific car bombing seemed to me to be the real end to a lot of people's sympathy for such tactics on the part of the IRA.

I have little first hand knowledge however, and would welcome any perspective you might have on the matter.