Housing bail out...

[Sportcamper]

The proposed Barney Frank housing bail out would greatly help people in Southern CA who are real estate speculators, investors & just plain LA folks who overpaid for their house in the 1st place…According to analysts, the bail out will not do much for responsible people in places like Salt Lake Utah, San Antonio Texas or Seattle Washington…

The proposed Democratic housing bail out would give people in So Cal, government paid built in home equity & discounted loans…At the expense of YOU the taxpayers of course…

Is this a good idea? Shouldn’t the government help out when people are irresponsible? What do you all think?

[clambake]

of course they shouldn't, but this leads all the way back to the front steps of "The Good Ol' Boys Club".

[Sportcamper]

I just wonder if people from wealthy & more affluent neighborhoods are not “More Deserving” of Free Government Money…

[xrayzebra]

of course they shouldn't, but this leads all the way back to the front steps of "The Good Ol' Boys Club".

And who are these "good ol' boy club members". Congress?
They are the ones who pushed the lenders to find a way
for the these poor folks could afford housing (?) like they
were living on the streets. And like Sport said, Congress
in all their wisdom always leaves holes in every bill that
the smart set can make a buck. Now who is bailing out
who?

[Homeland Security]

I just wonder if people from wealthy & more affluent neighborhoods are not “More Deserving” of Free Government Money…
What do you mean "wonder?" That's a plank in the 2008 GOP platform.

[Wild Cobra]

Nobody in the housing market should be bailed out. I heard some interesting numbers before this started. At any time anout 1.5% of the properties were in some stage of forclosure. Since this started it is still less than 2%, but close. That suggests the rates of forclosure actions increased by only 25% to 33%. With it still under 2%, that is hardly a crisis.

Congress is just trying to by votes again, and with our tax dollars!

[PixelPusher]

All of the homeowners in danger of foreclosure should join together to form a massive, publicly traded corporation...then they go from "irresponsible plebes" to "too-big-to-fail pillar of capitalism".

[spurster]

I don't think we need to bail anybody out. There are a few things that would make things better without costing us anything. One is to cap interest rates and penalties on these loans. Another is to allow bankruptcy courts flexibility to change the terms of the loans. Finally, the Justice Department needs to prosecute fraudulent lenders and start putting them in jail. Currently, the lenders are hoping their debtors will be cash cows, and the debtors are hoping Congress will come up with the cash. With a little motivation, I think they can come to reasonable terms without our help.

[clambake]

Congress is just trying to by votes again, and with our tax dollars!

i'm glad that bush is against this:rolleyes

[xrayzebra]

You know what I love. Congress could really help everyone out with
one simple law that wont cost one cent of the taxpayers money. They
could allow Oil Companies to drill for oil and build new refineries.

But that would piss off their left wing buddies in the environmental
business. Wouldn't it?

Just think how many low income people this would help. How it
would help the truckers who are transporting our goods. And
better yet, we could tell some of those folks in ME we don't need
all their oil.

Just a little something to think about.

[clambake]

You know what I love. Congress could really help everyone out with
one simple law that wont cost one cent of the taxpayers money. They
could allow Oil Companies to drill for oil and build new refineries.

But that would piss off their left wing buddies in the environmental
business. Wouldn't it?

Just think how many low income people this would help. How it
would help the truckers who are transporting our goods. And
better yet, we could tell some of those folks in ME we don't need
all their oil.

Just a little something to think about.


yeah, right, the oil companies would sell to the US for cheap instead of selling it to other countries for top dollar. could you dumb down any farther mr. fossil?

[xrayzebra]

yeah, right, the oil companies would sell to the US for cheap instead of selling it to other countries for top dollar. could you dumb down any farther mr. fossil?

You know clam if you had a brain you would take it out
and play with it. Dumb is what dumb is and you fit the
bill in every way.

[clambake]

You know clam if you had a brain you would take it out
and play with it. Dumb is what dumb is and you fit the
bill in every way.

nice retreat, old fart. can you not sense your stupidity regarding drilling and adding refineries? they've been making record profits on our tail, mate. you think that would change?

[Nbadan]

That's true, most of the oil from Alaska goes to Japan, and estimates are that drilling in ANWR would result in a one penny decrease in the price of gas in 2012

[Wild Cobra]

yeah, right, the oil companies would sell to the US for cheap instead of selling it to other countries for top dollar. could you dumb down any farther mr. fossil?

You're right Clam, they will sell it for top dollar. However, more supply in the market means the pice comes down. Economics 101.

[Wild Cobra]

That's true, most of the oil from Alaska goes to Japan, and estimates are that drilling in ANWR would result in a one penny decrease in the price of gas in 2012
LOL... I don't believe that. Especially since you rarely have reliable sources.

Yes, it will likely go to the closest buyers. So F'n what? Oil is a world commodity.

I think you are mixing up data with our strategic reserves. Best I heard was it would lower the price by something like 3 cents for a week or two if we released it. Then our emergency oil would be gone!

[clambake]

it's not in the oil companies interest to lower the price of oil.

what are you people thinking?

[Nbadan]

No, you must know better that the dept. of Energy....


Even with instant approval for drilling, it will take 10 years before the oil from ANWR will be brought to market, and another 10 years after that to get to 1 million barrels pumped per day.

"The Department of Energy says that drilling in ANWR will do little in the near term and very little in the long term, reducing gas prices by only one penny," Cantwell said.

Faux News (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,174487,00.html)

[Wild Cobra]

it's not in the oil companies interest to lower the price of oil.

what are you people thinking?

Really? Maybe I should try to verify this now. I heard a figure that recounted different oil comany aspects, and our USA oil companies comprise of only 6% of the world oil production. They can hardly hurt themself in profit by increasing production as much as they are capable of. If they double their oil production and the price drops by 25%, they win big!

[xrayzebra]

No, you must know better that the dept. of Energy....



Faux News (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,174487,00.html)

Your point being? Never drill because it will take time to
reach market. Poor decision making on your part and
Bill Clintons when he veto'd a bill to allow just that about
10 years ago. It could be on the market today.

[xrayzebra]

nice retreat, old fart. can you not sense your stupidity regarding drilling and adding refineries? they've been making record profits on our tail, mate. you think that would change?

Yeah, clam, allowing them to provide more of what we
need is absolutely the worst thing we could do. You are
so right. How could I have ever doubted your astute
observation of world market conditions and our need for
a commodity. Let me take this opportunity to offer my
apology for even thinking of questioning you,

[clambake]

Really? Maybe I should try to verify this now. I heard a figure that recounted different oil comany aspects, and our USA oil companies comprise of only 6% of the world oil production. They can hardly hurt themself in profit by increasing production as much as they are capable of. If they double their oil production and the price drops by 25%, they win big!

that is an absolute impossibility for them to double their production, so, i don't get where you're going with this.

[Wild Cobra]

No, you must know better that the dept. of Energy....



Faux News (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,174487,00.html)
No, I don't. The article didn't quote the department of energy. It quoted a senator, Maria Cantwell (D-Washington), an enviromnental whacho. I don't trust her words as being accurate. Do you trust politicians that much?

Look at this from her wiki enrty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Cantwell):


Environmental record

Cantwell received the highest rating possible from the League of Conservation Voters for her environmental voting record. She is known for supporting alternative energy research and for protecting Washington's forests from logging and the construction of paved roads and has earned endorsement from various prominent environmental advocacy groups.[15] (http://www.lcv.org/newsroom/press-releases/page.jsp?itemID=27813202) and other environmental groups[16] (http://cascade.sierraclub.org/node/545)[17] (http://www.defendersactionfund.org/releases/071706c.html) She has opposed drilling in Alaska's Arctic National Wildlife Refuge on multiple occasions, has voted to reduce oil usage by 40% by 2025, and has opposed legislation to relax or terminate CAFE standards.[18] (http://www.ontheissues.org/Senate/Maria_Cantwell.htm) The Seattle Times has described Cantwell's environmental record as "pristine"[19] (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/opinion/2002250292_sundayjoni24.html) and The Wilderness Society has described Cantwell as an "environmental champion".[20] (http://www.wilderness.org/NewsRoom/Release/20070319.cfm)

I hear about her antics from time to time on radio programs here in the Northwest.

I modified the text to imbed the links for each note number rather than taking you to a wiki note.

[Wild Cobra]

that is an absolute impossibility for them to double their production, so, i don't get where you're going with this.

Wait a minute. US oil companies only have 6% of the world oil on tap and the USA sit on humongoius reserves that they are not allowed to touch. I'd say it is very easy to double their oil production if they were allowed to. If we were a bigger player in the world market, the price would come down!

[clambake]

they can't double their production, period.

anyway, Bush has shielded the biggest US banks from the mortgage meltdown, so, congress has their president along for the ride.

[Wild Cobra]

they can't double their production, period.

OK, Lord Clambake has spoken.

The God's will not allow the USA to double production.

[xrayzebra]

Crude oil production by years:

1940's 1,503,176 1,404,182 1,385,479 1,505,613 1,677,904 1,713,655 1,733,424 1,856,987 2,020,185 1,841,940
1950's 1,973,574 2,247,711 2,289,836 2,357,082 2,314,988 2,484,428 2,617,283 2,616,901 2,448,987 2,574,590
1960's 2,574,933 2,621,758 2,676,189 2,752,723 2,786,822 2,848,514 3,027,763 3,215,742 3,329,042 3,371,751
1970's 3,517,450 3,453,914 3,455,368 3,360,903 3,202,585 3,056,779 2,976,180 3,009,265 3,178,216 3,121,310
1980's 3,146,365 3,128,624 3,156,715 3,170,999 3,249,696 3,274,553 3,168,252 3,047,378 2,979,123 2,778,773
1990's 2,684,687 2,707,039 2,624,632 2,499,033 2,431,476 2,394,268 2,366,017 2,354,831 2,281,919 2,146,732
2000's 2,130,707 2,117,511 2,097,124 2,073,453 1,983,302 1,890,106 1,862,259 1,862,441


The numbers represent each year of a particular 10 year period.

Exports of US Oil.


EIA Home
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Energy Glossary
Note: These data are available in spreadsheet format by clicking the ''Download Series History'' link on the previous page (with drop-down menu bar at top).
View History: Monthly Annual
U.S. Crude Oil and Petroleum Products Exports (Thousand Barrels)
Year Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec
1981 17,294 15,936 18,169 17,093 18,448 12,611 17,713 19,961 15,578 22,876 21,023 20,322
1982 25,693 22,507 27,343 23,565 24,908 21,093 22,972 26,586 23,717 28,890 23,582 26,657
1983 30,174 24,230 24,824 24,272 26,297 23,221 17,711 20,558 20,531 17,853 20,379 19,803
1984 17,832 16,874 26,044 19,651 23,756 25,924 16,626 22,691 19,915 18,582 25,626 30,557
1985 24,544 23,993 21,499 22,905 21,867 20,762 20,932 23,212 24,180 21,397 31,093 28,684
1986 26,620 24,529 22,684 25,500 22,432 19,246 21,245 26,903 21,428 25,747 24,622 25,415
1987 21,791 27,358 22,316 26,115 20,640 20,078 21,085 20,586 23,865 20,016 22,105 32,777
1988 27,436 25,053 25,865 20,279 25,229 28,135 25,604 25,219 20,178 22,703 21,508 31,256
1989 23,579 24,494 26,663 24,296 24,536 29,246 24,183 29,962 19,664 24,514 29,239 33,083
1990 21,988 23,016 27,284 22,821 21,382 24,097 21,563 26,340 25,405 29,408 32,557 36,810
1991 37,169 40,345 29,254 22,122 35,633 27,644 29,841 25,958 23,540 28,451 27,769 37,616
1992 35,458 24,696 28,274 28,116 27,431 28,712 28,810 24,467 25,428 27,975 29,864 38,353
1993 35,177 28,924 30,062 32,016 33,540 26,986 31,024 25,709 27,057 27,320 29,403 38,758
1994 28,736 24,690 29,020 26,044 28,811 26,024 27,196 28,297 26,739 30,901 29,994 37,443
1995 30,308 29,726 29,382 29,936 27,162 27,575 27,730 25,446 24,154 29,819 30,062 35,177
1996 33,171 30,387 26,870 29,280 27,617 26,863 29,287 27,790 33,115 32,396 30,723 31,399
1997 32,176 28,462 28,915 28,111 27,171 28,646 31,376 33,303 29,903 33,059 28,019 37,117
1998 35,121 28,082 29,374 31,433 32,630 29,610 30,944 24,187 25,875 26,367 23,457 27,677
1999 27,764 21,163 23,694 35,873 28,358 27,213 28,457 27,951 26,668 29,263 28,493 38,121
2000 31,185 25,218 35,917 33,929 26,547 27,746 27,902 33,271 31,764 40,054 33,238 33,940
2001 29,569 28,125 29,075 28,258 33,128 29,266 27,248 32,493 24,752 29,338 28,788 34,380
2002 26,681 32,888 26,440 26,687 28,218 26,390 26,007 35,275 30,463 29,817 30,781 39,430
2003 37,571 29,873 32,590 31,580 34,005 31,953 30,249 29,357 28,789 30,078 27,975 30,688
2004 23,202 30,320 31,749 34,602 32,608 32,087 33,468 33,816 28,834 33,409 29,749 39,790
2005 28,417 35,173 40,553 39,886 42,769 44,312 39,036 40,160 25,305 26,478 28,818 34,282
2006 32,837 35,721 36,256 41,954 41,845 40,025 43,000 38,902 46,626 46,701 40,594 36,099
2007 45,832 38,440 39,065 39,395 42,765 39,614 46,613 45,874 40,715 40,971 48,778 42,487
2008 50,323 60,100

Updated on 4/24/2008
Source: U.S. Energy Information Administration
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Exports by country can be found on this link:

http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/pet_move_expc_a_EP00_EEX_mbbl_m.htm

Want to see something unusual. Export's to Saudi Arabia. Yeah
we send them oil.

[clambake]

thanks for showing us what happens when the USA sells it's oil.

how much today? hundred and twenty what? for a barrel?

[clambake]

oh yeah, back on topic.

is anyone mad about bush bailing out the banks on this mortgage crisis?

[Wild Cobra]

oh yeah, back on topic.

is anyone mad about bush bailing out the banks on this mortgage crisis?
Absolutely, if he really is. I hadn't paid much attention to the exact proposals, but in generaly, it's a bad thig.

The government should not be picking winners and losers in a free market.

We can add this to a couple other things we conservatives hate about presidenyt Bush...

[Agloco]

You're right Clam, they will sell it for top dollar. However, more supply in the market means the pice comes down. Economics 101.


If the was more supply, then yes.

You're forgetting about the emerging markets of China and India. No amount of US production will come close to offsetting their demand in 5-10 years.

Oil prices are going to continue to go through the roof. The US plan is to control the largest remaining reserves (Iraq) then pull the ultimate coup.....

Switching to a non-oil based economy here at home and leaving the rest of the world to flounder in $250 dollar per barrel oil. We are seeing the beginnings of this switch now with test vehicles (E85, etc...)

[Agloco]

oh yeah, back on topic.

is anyone mad about bush bailing out the banks on this mortgage crisis?

Yes. People shouldn't be rewarded for not reading the fine print. Most folks have become so cavalier about major purchases, as if they are our god given right as Americans.

Perspective is a bitch sometimes. US citizens are getting a face full of it now. Play time is over: It's time to pay the piper.

[Wild Cobra]

If the was more supply, then yes.

Any increase in supply will help. How much it helps depends on the supply vs. demand.



You're forgetting about the emerging markets of China and India. No amount of US production will come close to offsetting their demand in 5-10 years.

You must be new at this political forum. I am one of the few how have repeatedly pointed out that Asia's growth is a big factor, probably the biggest in the world oil prices. Is their demand still growing 18% annual? I haven't checked for a while.



Oil prices are going to continue to go through the roof. The US plan is to control the largest remaining reserves (Iraq) then pull the ultimate coup.....

Yes, prices will continue on the upward trend. Increasing supply will slow the increase. No, we will not take Iraq's oil outside the free market system, or trade agreements.



Switching to a non-oil based economy here at home and leaving the rest of the world to flounder in $250 dollar per barrel oil. We are seeing the beginnings of this switch now with test vehicles (E85, etc...)

At first, I thought you had some insight. E85 is not the answer. Increasing mileage has a small effect on our usage as we use less oil for gasoline and diesel as most people think. Oil is used for plastics, asphalt, and other goods as well. It takes too much acreage and water, then has a very small net power output. Cold fusion is the probable answer if that ever takes shape. Until then, the only viable answer is nuclear power and cracking water to hydrogen fuel, unless the idea in the first posting of this thread pans out:

Bye-Bye Oil Companies... As we know them... (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90771)

Source article:

Researcher: Discovery could end energy crisis


By Jana Cone/reporter (http://www.tiftongazette.com/local/local_story_075215425.html)

[CavsSuperFan]

House OKs controversial housing plan (http://money.cnn.com/2008/05/08/news/economy/frank_omnibus_housing_bill_vote/index.htm?postversion=2008050818)
Lawmakers approve expansion of federally backed loan program for troubled borrowers despite White House opposition.

[Wild Cobra]

House OKs controversial housing plan (http://money.cnn.com/2008/05/08/news/economy/frank_omnibus_housing_bill_vote/index.htm?postversion=2008050818)
Lawmakers approve expansion of federally backed loan program for troubled borrowers despite White House opposition.

Wow...

Congress seems to base these numbers on static projections. The problem is in my eyes, that lenders will turn around and make even less secure loans, since tax dollars will offset their poor judgements!

I see this as an automatic payout to lenders with our tax dollars. I also see this as lenders making more bad loans, not less!

I wonder... How many of the 39 republicans that voted for this bill are RINOs?

[boutons_]

"more supply in the market means the pice comes down"

less demand by the biggest consumer of oil may also bring the price down, but the world price is out the hands of USA, not even in the hands of OPEC. commodities (oil, food, etc) speculators are driving fluctuations in prices, as well as "pure" supply and demand.

The only reliable policy for the US is to drive down US demand by federally taxing transport fuel to $7 or $8, like in Europe. US oil consumers and suppliers will modify their behavior and demands, aka, "the free market" at work.

The oil and food crisis demands govts' interventions because the "free market" has totally failed again, failed to take us in the right directions, failed to put peoples' lives and the enviroment as our highest objectives. It never has, it never will.

[Wild Cobra]

House OKs controversial housing plan (http://money.cnn.com/2008/05/08/news/economy/frank_omnibus_housing_bill_vote/index.htm?postversion=2008050818)
Lawmakers approve expansion of federally backed loan program for troubled borrowers despite White House opposition.

I looked and looked through the Thomas/LOC website for this, and was unable to find it.

I hate CNN. They don't provide any useful information for verification. A bill title, bill name, or link would have helped.

[Wild Cobra]

OK, I finally found it. Here is the vote (http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2008/roll301.xml). It is HR 3221 (http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=110_cong_bills&docid=f:h3221eas.txt.pdf) for anyone interested.

[Sportcamper]

A recent study found the average American walks about 900 miles a year.

Another study found Americans drink, on average, 22 gallons of alcohol a year.

That means, on average, Americans get about 41 miles to the gallon.

Kind of makes you proud to be American.

[JoeChalupa]

A recent study found the average American walks about 900 miles a year.

Another study found Americans drink, on average, 22 gallons of alcohol a year.

That means, on average, Americans get about 41 miles to the gallon.

Kind of makes you proud to be American.

:lmao

[RandomGuy]

You're right Clam, they will sell it for top dollar. However, more supply in the market means the pice comes down. Economics 101.

Actually Economics 101 would say that all other things being held equal, the price would come down.

If demand went up faster than supply increased in the meantime, you would see a price increase, and the effect of the greater supply would be a slightly moderated increase.

The guardian of Hades, Ceteribus Paribus, bites you in the butt when you ignore him...

Honk if you get why that is a pun. ;)