Now, Is Manu an All-Star? He'll have to be a coaches selection, but he ought to be

[RobinsontoDuncan]

His game saved the us big time. Without him torching Phoenix for 50 pts we would have been a lost cause after the first period, he played strong all night.

[whottt]

Manu and Parker are both legitimate All Star Candidates.

It just depends on how many guards they put on the All Star team...there's no rule that says there can only be 5 guards, the East had like 6 guards last season...and Manu can also play SF.

So if you assume the automatic bids are Tmac and Kobe, with Nash being a no-brainer...Ray Allen will make it

That leaves Bibby, Manu and Parker, both Manu and Parker have just as much a case of the AS game as Bibby...actually, they both have more of a case IMO.

Both could be All Stars and it wouldn't be a joke or a disgrace if either were.

[Brodels]

I still say no. Kobe, Nash, Allen, and McGrady are all locks. If Kobe can't play, it might open a door.

But even if another Spur makes it, I still think it won't be Manu. Manu had a big game last night, but Parker's been playing better lately and has arguable been the second-best point guard in the conference.

I don't think either will make it, but if another Spur goes, I think it will be Parker.

[whottt]

Even if Kobe can play, there's no rule that says there can only be 4 or 5 guards....last season the East had 6 guards/GF's.

[spursfaninla]

Parker hurt his case by scoring 2. All-star level guys just dont' do that.

Usually because they are the best player on their team, and are forced to "shoot their way out of it"...luckily we didnt' have to endure that.

That said, I hope he gets more serious consideration than I'm predicting, along with Manu.

[T Park]

SFILA

When youve got the flu, its tough to come out and have a 'Good game"

You could tell he wasn't himself last night.

He might be better for Sacramento.

It might not be better till New Orleans a week from today.

[spursfaninla]

I actually didn't get to see this game, I went to see Huckleberry Finn done by a deaf troupe.

Met a lady, too :fro

I was VERY happy to hear about our win, and how Manu had a career game. This is a sign that manu should be a 20 ppg scorer, IMO. His efficiency is great, so what is holding him back?

Parker. He needs touches too. And Duncan, of course. The other guys shouldn't get as many, then, and these three should play like Minny's big 3 last year...

20 each, please....

[waly.mg]

Manu is an All Star in the Big Games and TP in the Small Games

Manu was the Top Scorer vs Miami (29), Seattle (21), Suns (48), Wolves (22) and Sacramento (18), 5 of the Top Teams, plus Denver and GSW

Others Big games scores: Kings: 24, Dallas: 22, Phoenix 13, Houston 13, Seattle 18, Detroit 18, Dallas 11, Lakers 18, Lakers 13 (Garbage)

Big Numbers for Big Games

[ALVAREZ6]

Manu has always been an all-star, I said it all season long.

Last night, he proved that he could start the ASG, screw Kobe.

[ALVAREZ6]

Manu just doesn't get to shoot the ball as many times as he would on a different team because the Spurs are a really deep team.

If Manu was on the Sixers, he would average closer to 20+ points.

[1Parker1]

Manu is an All Star in the Big Games and TP in the Small GamesManu was the Top Scorer vs Miami (29), Seattle (21), Suns (48), Wolves (22) and Sacramento (18), 5 of the Top Teams, plus Denver and GSW

Others Big games scores: Kings: 24, Dallas: 22, Phoenix 13, Houston 13, Seattle 18, Detroit 18, Dallas 11, Lakers 18, Lakers 13 (Garbage)

Big Numbers for Big Games

That's not true. I love how everyone is so hard on Tony all of a sudden. Tony has played ALL STAR level at big games also. Games 1 and 2 vs LA last year, our first game against the Suns this year, against Wolves he scored 21, etc. BOTH Tony and Manu deserve to be All Star's in my opinion. People like Kobe and McGrady get voted in simply because they are franchise players and are the center of their team, they must take at least 20 shots a game, hence their higher stats. Manu was unbelievable last night and Tony has been unbelievable for the past 10-15 Spurs games. It's not accurate to say that Mnau shows up for the big games and Tony for the small games.

[Ghost Writer]

Parker is nowhere close to being an All-Star. He's still a skinny SG with ball-handling skills. His playmaking has improved some, but he's still up and down.

Manu is an All-Star.

Walton said that there's only about 3 players int he NBA right now that he'd trade Manu for.

Mike Breen said that Manu should make the All-Star team.

Manu consistently brings it night after night and is capable of special performances like last night.

Udirich is reprising Claxton's "bail out little Tony" role.

[SequSpur]

Udirich is reprising Claxton's "bail out little Tony" role.


Definitely agree with this quote. I was concerned that the Spurs were going into another season with no backup pg. After last year's revolving door at that position, I had no hope, especially after signing an unknown kid from Rasho's back door. Who woulda thought?

Beno proved last night that he won't back down in tough situations and dude showed tremondous poise.

Now, one game doesn't make an allstar, but Manu definitely made a serious bid to get in. Parker was evidently sick, he really looked dazed to me. But over the long haul of wins, Parker has been much more consistent and allstar proven than Ginobili has.

Ginobili played in control last night, looked like the Gold Bar Shittin Dude that he is. Maybe this is the game that puts him into stardom. If he comes out next game and drops 10 and 4 turnovers and 2 quarters of Pop lashing.... he can go to Cancun for the allstar weekend.

[whottt]

What horseshit, Parker has been carrying this team for the last month and after 1 bad game you guys trash him like he never shows up to play.


Parker scored 2 points? That's fine, but on the season he is still averaging nearly 16 PPG and 6 asssists and shooting near 50%.

You guys are fucking stupid if you don't think other players have bad games....no one hits their averages every game.

[Kori Ellis]

I agree with Whottt. Tony have been averaging 20/7 over the past couple weeks and carrying the Spurs when no one else was showing up. He had a rough first half last night. And then when Beno was running the offense so well and the ball was going to Manu so much, there was no place for Tony. Having that kind of depth is a blessing.

I think Tony was much closer to being an All-Star than Manu was (up until last night) because Tony is becoming one of the top point guards in the league and there are so many good shooting guards. But now because of Manu's game of a lifetime, he'll garner some more coaches votes. In the end, probably neither one of them make it if Nash and Kobe are both healthy and going.

[adidas11]

I think Tony has a better shot than Manu, and I doubt both players will make the All star team.

I understand your thinking Whott, about how it would be possible for both guards to make the team. Placing Manu as a "small forward". But the only difference in your using the Eastern Conference reference, is that in the West, there are lots of forwards and power forwards that statistically deserve to make the team as well.

After the 5 All star starters, the remaining positions are chosen as 2 guards, 2 forwards, and 1 center. The remaining two positions can be any position. That gets you your twelve positions.

So let's look at it from the guard perspective. After Kobe and McGrady are chosen as the starters, Nash and Ray Allen are locks for the first two guard positions.

That leaves the other two "open" positions as a possibility for Manu and Parker.

Tim Duncan and KG are your starting forwards...

That leaves the two mandatory forward positions. Nowitzki and Stoudamire can be punched into those (unless Stoudamire is chosen as a *center*)

Who else do we have that plays forward in the West? Webber, Carmelo, Brand, Rashard Lewis, and others come to mind.

And one great game does NOT an All Star make. If that were the case, then Damon Stoudamire would be a lock for the All Star team as well...

I think Manu is FAR on the outside, looking in...

[S4Spur21]

Tony and Manu should go why:

They are great team members
They arent about ME ME ME ME
They help other team members get better
They play Defense.

thats why both should go..

[adidas11]

Tony and Manu should go why:

They are great team members
They arent about ME ME ME ME
They help other team members get better
They play Defense.

thats why both should go..

Uhh...S4Spur21, those are precisely the reasons why a player doesn't make the All Star team.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

yeah addidas is right, players who play team ball dont go to the all-star game, Tim is an exception but the offense is still molded around him.

[whottt]

adidas...12 guys make the AS team...

So this season...

How about 6 guards, G/F's...4 forwards and 2 Centers...

My All Star Roster is this...

G/GF's:
Kobe
Tmac
Nash
Allen
Manu
Parker

F's
Duncan
Garnett
Nowitzki
Amare

C's
Yao
Miller


Works for me...especially since Amare is actually playing Center this season, Miller is actually more of a forward, and Duncan is both.



If you think Marion, Peja or Webber deserve to go, then kick Miller off and take one of them instead, we'd still have guards and forwards to burn.


The only guy that has any semblance of an argument to be ahead of Parker and Manu is Marion...I don't think Bibby has as much of a case as either of them...and Peja is actually having kind of a crappy season compared to previous years.

Essentially the argument comes down to if the Kings, Spurs or Suns are more deserving to have multiple players going...one of those teams will have more than 1 player...

IMO the Spurs have the best case for mutiple players being chosen...

[RobinsontoDuncan]

yeah but i think both peja and marion deserve serious consideration

[RobinsontoDuncan]

Dont forget, Marion played out of his mind yesterday too.

[whottt]

The thing is...the team needs to have two legitimate PG's...Neither Kobe or TMac are a legitimate PG...Nash is one...so then you have to choose between Bibby and Parker for the back up slot...Parker is having a better season, his team is having a better season..and on top of that Bibby looks like the ass end of a dog and will drive viewers away just out of sheer ugliness.


So then we have to figure out how Manu gets on the team...well a lot of people want to see Manu in the AS game...a lot of people who know a lot about the NBA...

[smeagol]

Beno proved last night that he won't back down in tough situations and dude showed tremondous poise.
Lets see . . . what word best describes the above quote . . . "backpedaling" maybe . . .

Or maybe I can use a phrase: "I'm a moron for criticizing Beno from day one, without even having seen him play, simply because he is an unknown from Slovenia, not a proven NBA back-up PG".

Sequ: The good thing is that it takes a big man to admit his mistakes. You've admited one of your huge mistakes, the question is are you a big man? :smokin

[RobinsontoDuncan]

WTF are you talking about smeagol, Sequ didn't admit to a damn thing, he didn't go out and say, "well, i guess i was wrong for saying we ought to trade Beno, or saying he was soft, or cheap euro-trash that cant play, or that pop is a cheap bastard for not getting a prooven backup PG."

[whottt]

After looking at it some more...

Since the coahces will select the back up slots...you know, Miller really isn't doing anything special...

Ditch him...let Duncan or Amare play some C...and take Marion.

That gives you guys the 3 Suns that you want...IMO if the Suns deserve to have 3 players, the Spurs damn sure do as well.

That gives you:
G:
Kobe
TMac
Nash
Allen
Manu
Parker

F
Duncan
Garnett
Marion
_irk
Amare

C
Yao
(backed up by Duncan Amare KG etc)...

It would work. And I think it makes sense.

This team has a lot of tweeners...

TMac, Kobe and Manu are all G/F's...

Duncan, Dirk, Garnett and even Amare are all F/C's...

I think my roster would work and I think it would be fair.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

I can see your logic, but i don't think Yao deserves to be a starter for the all-star game.

[whottt]

I can see your logic, but i don't think Yao deserves to be a starter for the all-star game.

I don't either...

But he is having a better season than Miller and he did get voted in by the fans.

Amare should be the starting C for the West...it's fucked up that he isn't even on the ballot at that position.

I don't really think Tmac is having that great of a season either...

[Leo_ARG]

Manu is 3rd in the NBA in Shots made/Shots attemped ratio.Only behind Amare and Shaq.

Just imagine if they let him do his thing more, if you give him more freedom.
His efficiency is what makes him an all star.Plus, he does it all on the court.No way Parker can steal, block and assist as Manu does night in and night out.

[smeagol]

WTF are you talking about smeagol, Sequ didn't admit to a damn thing, he didn't go out and say, "well, i guess i was wrong for saying we ought to trade Beno, or saying he was soft, or cheap euro-trash that cant play, or that pop is a cheap bastard for not getting a prooven backup PG."
Its probably as close as Sequ will get to admitting something.

[exstatic]

And one great game does NOT an All Star make. If that were the case, then Damon Stoudamire would be a lock for the All Star team as well...


One great game, on national TV, set as the battle of the West elite, might just do it.

[PM5K]

One game don't get you into the All Star Game....

[SPARKY]

Honestly I'd rather he not be. He's banged up and he didn't exactly get much of a rest this past summer. The less Spur involvement on All-Star Weekend, the better. Ditto for Pop. He likes to use that time to prep for the remainder of the season and perhaps relax a little himself, if that is possible.

[MannyIsGod]

Well, the reason I thought Manu wasn't going to make it into the All Star game was because so much of his game comes outside of scoring. Yes, he's a great scorer, but he simply changes the game.

I think there's a chance he makes it. But don't expect Pop to campaign for any of his guys to be in it. You know he'd much rather have everyone off for a few days, and I honestlydon't think many of the spurs would mind that.

[whottt]

I think Parker and Manu both want to make the All Star Team. I know for fact Parker wants to be on the AS team, he has come right out and admitted it.

Gotta realize, Parker and Manu would be the first players ever from their respective countries to make the AS team, Bob Cousy excepted.

That kind of thing matters to both Manu and Parker IMO. They are very aware of the fact that they are NBA pioneers for their countries, and I think they both want to give their countrymen something to be proud about. I think it's very important to them, and to their countrymen.

I also think it would be good for the All Star Game, it would generate a lot more interest than usual in this game, a game that has been declining in ratings and interest for a number of years.....

Manu, in particular, is a world wide star. Manu is probably the most recognizable international player in the World.

Anyone that has watched an NBA chamionship run, an Olympic Gold Medal Game, or a Euroleague championship game, has seen Manu doing his thing.


Everyone saw what he did last night, Euro hoop fans know his game well, everyone was entertained by what he did in the Olympics. And I think a lot of people around the world want to see him in a game where he can just cut loose and showboat to his hearts content. I know I want to see Manu unleashed...Forget stats, Manu is a fun mofo to watch.

And I think Pop also knows that they want to make the AS game, out of National pride if nothing else. Pop was campaigning for Manu to make the AS game earlier in the season.


Manu and Parker in the AS game = Good for the game, good for generating international interest in the game, and good for the Spurs.

And they both legitimately deserve to be on the team IMO.

[TMTTRIO]

^I agree whott. Manu also said on his site that he'd love to be in it. I don't know if he can make it in but after that dunk he did last night it would be awesome to see him in the game be let loose and be allowed to do some of his amazing plays.

[SequSpur]

Damn, Adidas broke it down. With names and the like.

Crap, it doesn't look good for Parker or Manu.

Simma Down Smeagol.

[Brodels]

Parker is nowhere close to being an All-Star. He's still a skinny SG with ball-handling skills. His playmaking has improved some, but he's still up and down.

Manu is an All-Star.

Walton said that there's only about 3 players int he NBA right now that he'd trade Manu for.

Mike Breen said that Manu should make the All-Star team.

Manu consistently brings it night after night and is capable of special performances like last night.

Udirich is reprising Claxton's "bail out little Tony" role.

Do you watch games? There is no way that Manu is far superior to Parker. They are both pretty similar, but if you've watched the Spurs for the past few weeks, you would have to conclude that Parker has been more of an asset than Manu.

Name three point guards in the western conference you would rather have than Parker. It's arguable that he's become the second best at his position in his conference. You could argue otherwise too, but he's put up pretty good numbers and has clearly been the leader of the team over the past few weeks.

Manu had a special performance last night and can certainly do some great things, but I could think of three swing players alone I would trade for him. If the deal is right, you take it.

And as far as inconsistency goes, Parker has been much more consistent lately. If anything, Manu is the up and down player.

I'm glad that the Spurs have both of them, but if I was forced to identify the better player, I think it would be hard to not go with Parker. He's second on the team in points, leads the team in assists, and he's been scoring more consistently than Manu.

Watch some games.

[Nikos]

Parker has been better as of late, but I wouldn't say over the course of the entire season he has been more consistent. He was flat out bad the first few weeks of the season, not mediocre, but bad.

Manu has not really had a horrible stretch yet, not a stretch like Parkers. And Manu's start to this season was comparable to Parkers hot stretch (just over a span of a few less games).

All in all I say they have equal value to the team, and if there is anyone who needs keep it up its Parker. Parker is SUPPOSED to be the second option, but he is no more efficient than Manu at scoring. In fact Manu has been more efficient with his scoring, whereas Parker has taken better care of the ball and has found a solid balance of scoring and passing as of late.

However, TP still needs to address the FT shooting. If he continues to miss three pointers, not get to the line, and shoot poor from the line, then you may see inconsistency in his scoring somewhere down the line.

I hope I am wrong. If Parker can maintain his hot play, then that would be great. But I would say they both are equal in terms of value to the team right now. I don't think either has been specifically inconsistent, both are actually doing better than last season.

I still think Parker needs to keep this up for the entire season to be the clear cut second best player on the team. I think he is supposed to be, but unless he keeps this up I think the backcourt is even in terms of importance to this team.

I don't really see how either has been inconsistent this season. If you want to say your not pleased with their games, then its one thing. But inconsistent is not really all that much of a problem so far this season. Unless of course you have much higher expectations?

[1Parker1]

Who cares?

WE HAVE THE BEST RECORD IN THE NBA!!!
GO SPURS!:)

[chungoman]

He's second on the team in points
Not anymore.

Ginobili 15.7
Parker 15.5

[Matrix]

I think manu should go over tp, just because he was a gold medal winner, and he seems like the most consistent player. I also think Marion should go over Amare, as you can tell by my handle, I think the Matrix always goes under the radar due to Amare being the future...But i would definately take Manu you can't pass up the gold medal winner player to play in the all star...

[RobinsontoDuncan]

Isn't Marion a better rebounder than Amare? Witht hat being said i too feel that TP is at his best when he is snubbed so i think not making the all-star team would be very benefical to us as he would be motivated to play at a much higher level of play then if he went to the all-star game. Basically TP with a chip on his shoulder is better than TP without one.

[ALVAREZ6]

Sequ: The good thing is that it takes a big man to admit his mistakes. You've admited one of your huge mistakes, the question is are you a big man? :smokin

:lol :lol :lmao :lmao

[ALVAREZ6]

Who cares?

WE HAVE THE BEST RECORD IN THE NBA!!!
GO SPURS!:)
Agreed.

Even if Manu doesn't go to the All-Star game as a player,

Spurs are going to win another NBA title.

Manu Finals MVP this season.

[2centsworth]

Either Manu or Tony is going to make it. Now that's a lock. 3 reasons:

Spurs are getting way too much respect around the league.

Manu has show cased his talents in the biggest settings including Athens.

Tony is going to kick the shit out of Bibby tonight.


BTW, if Manu was allowed to take 27 shots a game like Kobe don't you think Manu would average a measely 27pts and shoot 40%.

Manu takes 14 shots/game, but shoots 48%.

[Rick Von Braun]

Manu takes 14 shots/game, but shoots 48%.Manu takes 10 shots/game. Now, that's amazing efficiency!

I would be happy if he would take 12-13 shots/game. At 14 shots/game he would be a 20 pts scorer.

[ALVAREZ6]

Manu takes 10 shots/game. Now, that's amazing efficiency!

I would be happy if he would take 12-13 shots/game. At 14 shots/game he would be a 20 pts scorer.
Or 20 shots, 30 points per game.

[sa_butta]

Is it true that the team with the best record has coach in ASG?
If so why not Gino or parker.
I think both have proven themselves in different situations.

[ALVAREZ6]

Is it true that the team with the best record has coach in ASG?
If so why not Gino or parker.
I think both have proven themselves in different situations.
What about Gino and Parker?

They HAVE proven themselves, but it all comes down to who the rest of America votes for.

Parker and Gino aren't as popular as other players in the NBA mainly because they don't have bandwagon fans.

A good % of the people voting are people who don't know very much about the NBA, and they just vote for what they see on highlight films, or their local team.

San Antonio isn't a very big city population-wise compared to New York, Chicago, LA, Philly, Phoenix, other big cities, etc.

People vote for the jerseys they see in stores, not many Gino or Parker jerseys unless you go to a very good jersey store where I got my Gino jersey.

[Rick Von Braun]

Or 20 shots, 30 points per game.Nope, you cannot extrapolate that far... there is too much noise.

In basketball terms, at 20 shots/game there would be many changes:

the Spurs offense would be different
other teams would key on Manu, making him less effective (albeit he would probably drastically increase his assists, since he is a great passer)
he would have to play 38+ minutes/game, which is not clear he could sustain in 82 games.
You could extrapolate an increase of 30-40% with some level of accuracy, but a 100% increase is too difficult to predict.

It is not required anyway. If the Spurs can get 57+ points from Duncan, TP and Manu on average (assuming the rest of the team remains roughly the same in terms of contributions, defense, etc.), they would be virtually unbeatable.

I am not kidding... I have done some statistical projections and they could probably challenge the Bulls 72 wins record.

[Brodels]

BTW, if Manu was allowed to take 27 shots a game like Kobe don't you think Manu would average a measely 27pts and shoot 40%.

Manu takes 14 shots/game, but shoots 48%.

Manu is doing great and his efficiency is impressive, but you have to consider his situation when comparing him to Kobe.

It's not as simple as thinking that Manu could score as many points if he shot the ball as many times as Kobe.

Manu almost never gets doubleteamed. Opposing defenses are simply less concerned with him than they are with Duncan. It's arguable that Manu is actually the third topic of discussion when other teams are developing defensive game plans.

I'm not a big Kobe fan, but it's a fact that he does what he does with opposing defensed keyed on stopping him. When other teams play the Lakers, the first concern is how to stop Kobe. And the defensive game plan is centered on that.

Kobe, for all of his problems, is a very talented franchise player. That's why he gets 27 shots per game. Manu is a very good support player. He's never going to be any better than a support player as long as he plays on a decent team. That's not a knock on Manu, it's simply a realization that you can't really expect Manu to perform like Kobe if he got more shots.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

Care to extrapolate on those statistical projections Rick?

[2centsworth]

Manu takes 10 shots/game. Now, that's amazing efficiency


i think you're right. Manu is at 10 shots a game.

[IceColdBrewski]

Manu deserves to be in the All Star game but the folks around here are too enamored with riding Parker's jock to realize that. At least Manu would give a good effort and make us look good. God only knows what might happen if you put Parker in there.

[1Parker1]

God only knows what might happen if you put Parker in there.

Yea, he may actually put up the 20 pts and 6 assists, he's been averaging over the last 10 or so games. Hell, he may even score the winning basket, like he did against the Clippers, just two nights ago.
:rolleyes

[IceColdBrewski]

Yea, he may actually put up the 20 pts and 6 assists, he's been averaging over the last 10 or so games. Hell, he may even score the winning basket, like he did against the Clippers, just two nights ago.
:rolleyes

Or he just might disappear like he does in big playoff games.

Sorry. But Manu is the second best player on this team. He goes balls-out on every play and never quits or gets down on himself. I'd rather have him representing us than Parker.

[ducks]

tp has proved he is the second best player so far this season
manu has not

[IceColdBrewski]

tp has proved he is the second best player so far this season
manu has not

The day Parker scores more than 47 points is the day I'll believe that. From where I'm sitting, Manu finally had the chance to prove himself with a flu-ridden Parker on the bench.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

tp has proved he is the second best player so far this season
manu has not


I beg to differ, I believe Friday was proof of what Manu can do if he's given enough freedom to perform. TP has had too many ups and downs this season considering he has been Popovich's second offensive option. Now, I'm not saying TP is worst than Manu, however, it does seem to me that Manu puts more ethusiasm and heart into his play than TP does. Just my humble opinion

[IceColdBrewski]

I beg to differ, I believe Friday was proof of what Manu can do if he's given enough freedom to perform. TP has had too many ups and downs this season....

This season??? How bout his whole career thus far.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

This season??? How bout his whole career thus far.


I didn't want to over do it! lol

[Dartherus]

tp has proved he is the second best player so far this season
manu has not
Care toe xplain how TP has proven it? Manu stats are better (check at NBA.com, Manu now has better even stats in PPG (15.7 for Manu and 15.5 for Tony), the Tony's major strenght), Manu this season and the past season, had better Efficiency ranking stats (more complete stats than just scoring), had better "+/- stats" (the stats counting the point Spurs scored and the received during the minutes the player is in action).

FYI, Manu has had the second best stats in Efficiency Ranking and '+/- points' in these 2 latest seasons, behind Duncan and AHEAD Parker, for instance, in the last season , Shaq and Kobe leade those stats for the Lakers, does this mean something to you?

I would also ask you...scoring option implies always beeing a better player or a more important one? would you consider Dennis Rodman in the jordan's Bulls beeing less important to other Bulls' role players just because he was scoring less than those role players?

[IceColdBrewski]

Care toe xplain how TP has proven it? Manu stats are better (check at NBA.com, Manu now has better even stats in PPG (15.7 for Manu and 15.5 for Tony), the Tony's major strenght), Manu this season and the past season, had better Efficiency ranking stats (more complete stats than just scoring), had better "+/- stats" (the stats counting the point Spurs scored and the received during the minutes the player is in action).

FYI, Manu has had the second best stats in Efficiency Ranking and '+/- points' in these 2 latest seasons, behind Duncan and AHEAD Parker, for instance, in the last season , Shaq and Kobe leade those stats for the Lakers, does this mean something to you?

I would also ask you...scoring option implies always beeing a better player or a more important one? would you consider Dennis Rodman in the jordan's Bulls beeing less important to other Bulls' role players just because he was scoring less than those role players?

You're waisting your time. Most people on this forum choose to ride Parker's jock for some strange reason. Those of us with half a brain already know that Manu is the man.

[ducks]

I beg to differ, I believe Friday was proof of what Manu can do if he's given enough freedom to perform. TP has had too many ups and downs this season considering he has been Popovich's second offensive option. Now, I'm not saying TP is worst than Manu, however, it does seem to me that Manu puts more ethusiasm and heart into his play than TP does. Just my humble opinion


tp has been more constient then manu this season

tp could go for 47 points
one outing does nothing

tp was SICK When they played the suns
first time the spurs played suns tp won the game for them NOT MANU

[ducks]

you know ice as much as you hate tp so called disappear acts

mcnabbs has had a quarterback rating of 59 in the big game in the playoffs
today he played better
but having one good game in 4 tries wow

tp has done better then that

[ducks]

This season??? How bout his whole career thus far.


jason kidd said tp did more then what he could do at his age

I guess he knows less then you :lol

[ducks]

The day Parker scores more than 47 points is the day I'll believe that. From where I'm sitting, Manu finally had the chance to prove himself with a flu-ridden Parker on the bench.

if he scored 47 points you would say he is a big selfish hog he is a point guard he is suppose to pass and set up his teamates

he can not win with you no matter what he does
you will think he sucks
:rolleyes

[ALVAREZ6]

you know ice as much as you hate tp so called disappear acts

mcnabbs has had a quarterback rating of 59 in the big game in the playoffs
today he played better
but having one good game in 4 tries wow

tp has done better then that
All you can mention is crap that bashes on Mcnabb, don't get jealous because the Cowboys didn't even make the play-offs in how many tries????????

[Brodels]

The day Parker scores more than 47 points is the day I'll believe that. From where I'm sitting, Manu finally had the chance to prove himself with a flu-ridden Parker on the bench.

Of course, we all know that a player's ability to score more than 47 points in one game is the best indicator of how good they are.

I mean, it's clear that Richard Jefferson > Tim Duncan. After all, Jefferson does average more points.

[ducks]

who cares about the losser cowboys?

wow mcnabb did not disappear and had a better quarterback rating then 59 in a big game unlike the last three years



as much as you get on tp for his disappearing acts I would think you would more to your so called great quarterback. and he is the number man for eagles tp is number 2
or you say 3
being number three spurs should not count on number 3 guy just number one and number 2

parker cleary is the second most important player on the spurs
he is the point guard that makes the engine go

[ALVAREZ6]

who cares about the losser cowboys?

wow mcnabb did not disappear and had a better quarterback rating then 59 in a big game unlike the last three years



as much as you get on tp for his disappearing acts

How many times are you gonna mention this, seriously, no matter what, you still are the same big retard.

And.....ONCE AGAIN, I never said anything about parker, i am a TP fan.

[ducks]

Manu is an All Star in the Big Games and TP in the Small Games

Manu was the Top Scorer vs Miami (29), Seattle (21), Suns (48), Wolves (22) and Sacramento (18), 5 of the Top Teams, plus Denver and GSW

Others Big games scores: Kings: 24, Dallas: 22, Phoenix 13, Houston 13, Seattle 18, Detroit 18, Dallas 11, Lakers 18, Lakers 13 (Garbage)

Big Numbers for Big Games

tp job is not always to score he is to setup his teamates
manu is to score

[ducks]

How many times are you gonna mention this, seriously, no matter what, you still are the same big retard.

And.....ONCE AGAIN, I never said anything about parker, i am a TP fan.


I was talking to ice :smokin

[MaNuMaNiAc]

tp has been more constient then manu this season

tp could go for 47 points
one outing does nothing

tp was SICK When they played the suns
first time the spurs played them tp won the game for them


First of all, I'm curious about how you might think that flu-like symptoms justifies the game TP had against the Suns, and second I seem to recall Manu having a bruiced left quadricep and nearly spraining his ankle during the second quarter. So please don't come to me with lame excuses about how sick TP was. PLUS I really don't see how you can say that TP has been more consistant this season, taking into account that dry-spell he went through at the beginning. Furthermore, I don't get where you are coming from when you say that TP could go for 47. He's been Popovich's second offensive choice since last season, and has never come close to 40, let alone 48. I'd stick to the facts if I were you.

[ducks]

tp has been benched in 4 quarter when he had 25-29 points because spurs were killing the other team
he could have went for 40 -47 that game
pop was saving him for the playoffs
there have been several 4 quarters that tp has not had to play because spurs were ahead by several points
and NOT BECAUSE OF BAD PLAY ON TP's fault

I would stick to your facts

[ducks]

First of all, I'm curious about how you might think that flu-like symptoms justifies the game TP had against the Suns, and second I seem to recall Manu having a bruiced left quadricep and nearly spraining his ankle during the second quarter. So please don't come to me with lame excuses about how sick TP was. PLUS I really don't see how you can say that TP has been more consistant this season, taking into account that dry-spell he went through at the beginning. Furthermore, I don't get where you are coming from when you say that TP could go for 47. He's been Popovich's second offensive choice since last season, and has never come close to 40, let alone 48. I'd stick to the facts if I were you.


if he is pop's second option he must be the better player atleast according to pop :smokin

[ducks]

First of all, I'm curious about how you might think that flu-like symptoms justifies the game TP had against the Suns, and second I seem to recall Manu having a bruiced left quadricep and nearly spraining his ankle during the second quarter. So please don't come to me with lame excuses about how sick TP was. PLUS I really don't see how you can say that TP has been more consistant this season, taking into account that dry-spell he went through at the beginning. Furthermore, I don't get where you are coming from when you say that TP could go for 47. He's been Popovich's second offensive choice since last season, and has never come close to 40, let alone 48. I'd stick to the facts if I were you.

duncan has not been able to produce as much in 4 because of flu symtons

manu is the one that said tp was sick not tp

having the flu makes you more tired
when your leg hurts you still have energy to run up and down the court
having the flu is worse for performance issues then having a hurt leg as long as you are in the game playing

[MaNuMaNiAc]

tp has been benched in 4 quarter when he had 25-29 points because spurs were killing the other team
he could have went for 40 -47 that game
pop was saving him for the playoffs
there have been several 4 quarters that tp has not had to play because spurs were ahead by several points
and NOT BECAUSE OF BAD PLAY ON TP's fault

I would stick to your facts


HOW ON EARTH DOES THAT CONSTITUTE AS FACTS!!????? you name no dates, no opponents, and most importantly still choose to ASSUME ('cause that is all you're doing) that TP WOULD HAVE scored 47 (which is still 1 short of Manu's score) Now, I'm not saying that TP can't score as much, I'm just saying that there isn't much evidence for that assumption. So if I were you, I wounldn't be so dismissive of Manu's performance Friday night seeing as though the only Spur guard to score more has his jersey hanging in the rafters at the SBC Center: George Gervin.

[ALVAREZ6]

Yeah Ducks, your assumption is pretty bs.

It could have happened, but Manu was just fuckin on fire, no one was able to stop him.

He was 16-22 , 11-12 FT's.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

The A-S game isn't about stats, it's about who's the fans/coaches/league observers want to see.

Right now Manu doesn't have a claim to play based on the former, but he's probably in the top 5 of the latter, if you take everyone into account.

Whott's already touched on it, and I think a lot of league observers have commented as much: Manu is one of those guys who would be a hell of a lot of fun to watch in a playground ball game (which is what the A-S game is).

I don't have my hopes up on him making it, but God I hope he does. I bet he's got some crazy ass shit in his back pocket that he knows Pop would bench him for, but that in the A-S game would be a spectacle in and of itself.

Manu for All-Star.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

duncan has not been able to produce as much in 4 because of flu symtons

manu is the one that said tp was sick not tp

having the flu makes you more tired
when your leg hurts you still have energy to run up and down the court
having the flu is worse for performance issues then having a hurt leg as long as you are in the game playing

I understand that flu symptoms does affect the performance of a player, but you can't possibly argue that Tony's performance was entirely the cause of flu symptoms. I mean look a these stats!!

FGM-A = 1-9
3GM-A = 0-2
Rebounds = 1

and I'm not going to even argue with you about that last statement, if you honestly believe that flu symptoms are worse for performance than a leg injury, good ridance!

[ducks]

man you forgot to mention his 5 assist

how convient of you

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Just to be fair to TP he did have 5 assist a 2 steals, so it wasn't a complete f_ck-up. Having said that, and all of the above, I wan't you to know, I AM in fact a TP fan. I'm no trying to discredit him, just think we should take more into consideration that Manu is on fire right now.

[ducks]

I see you just added his assist sorry

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Read again duck!

[ducks]

I SAID YOU JUST ADDED THAT AFTER was typing my responce

tp carried the spurs the last 10 games
and now manu has one hell of a outing and he know is much more consitent then tp
give me a break

[MaNuMaNiAc]

I SAID YOU JUST ADDED THAT AFTER was typing my responce

tp carried the spurs the last 10 games
and now manu has one hell of a outing and he know is much more consitent then tp
give me a break

I'm sorry, but I thought we were talking about the whole season, not just the last 10 games. My mistake, lol. Because if we were talking about the whole season, which ofcourse we're not, you'd have to include the first 10 games, and that wouldn't leave much of an argument for ya would it now?

[ducks]

tp was trying to hard to earn his contract
once he relaxed he was fine

pop got that fixed

[RobinsontoDuncan]

Manumania, Although Ducks rarely uses grammar understandable to his readers he has been around for a lot longer than you and he has made so points you seem to ignore.

If you want to say that Manu> Parker you had better have more to justify it then that he scored 48 points. If you really consider it, if parker's career high was 35 pts but he added 10 + assists on the night Manu had his (which I know he didn't) then isn't Parker as good if not better. Shooting guards score, PG's set it up, Tony has progressed a great deal as a playmaker, and he can penetrate like no other guard i know.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Manumania, Although Ducks rarely uses grammar understandable to his readers he has been around for a lot longer than you and he has made so points you seem to ignore.

If you want to say that Manu> Parker you had better have more to justify it then that he scored 48 points. If you really consider it, if parker's career high was 35 pts but he added 10 + assists on the night Manu had his (which I know he didn't) then isn't Parker as good if not better. Shooting guards score, PG's set it up, Tony has progressed a great deal as a playmaker, and he can penetrate like no other guard i know.


First of all, if you had read a little further up you would know I never said Manu is better than TP, I merely object to Duck's dismissive attitude towards Manu's big night. I don't think it was a small thing, just like I wouldnt presume to argue that Manu is better than Parker for it. Plus I happen to believe that consistency incorporates many more things than just points, like attempts made vs not made, points per minutes played, assists, steals, etc. Now I think that Manu really IS more consitant when taking into account all those aspects. Either way, you both have a right to disagree.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

PS. I really don't think that him being part of this forum for a longer period of time has any effect on his ability to argue a point, or my ability to argue back, I really don't see where you're coming from RobinsontoDuncan. Having said that, know that when I respond I never mean to come off upset of angry, and always do so in a respectfull manner.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

If it wasn't for Tony consistantly scoring 20 and dishing out 7 a night, we would have been sunk this month due to poor preformances from Duncan, as Parker goes this team goes and at 32-9 i would say he has been pretty consistant.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Like I said, I'm not talking about the past 10 games, and I'm not saying he is not important. I'm talking about the season so far. I already posted that I believe them both to be of equal value for the team, I'm just saying Ginobili has been more consistant in terms of shots made vs attempted, and good performances overall, emphasis on OVERALL. Now, if anyone feels otherwise I welcome any rebutals that have facts to back them up, 'cause I've made the math, and my results show Ginobili has been more consistant this season.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

You have, well explain how well Ginobilli did at the beginning of the season, his sudden and pronounced drop off, and his sudden re-emegence.

[Brodels]

First of all, I'm curious about how you might think that flu-like symptoms justifies the game TP had against the Suns, and second I seem to recall Manu having a bruiced left quadricep and nearly spraining his ankle during the second quarter. So please don't come to me with lame excuses about how sick TP was. PLUS I really don't see how you can say that TP has been more consistant this season, taking into account that dry-spell he went through at the beginning. Furthermore, I don't get where you are coming from when you say that TP could go for 47. He's been Popovich's second offensive choice since last season, and has never come close to 40, let alone 48. I'd stick to the facts if I were you.

To be fair, let's look at what the flu can really do. If you don't think that sickness can make a player sluggish and influence his play, you haven't been paying attention recently.

Look at Duncan. He was sick and didn't recover for a while. Not so coincidentally, he had one of the worst stretches of his career while he was sick. If Parker continues to play poorly against the Suns or other top teams, then there is cause for concern. But Manu has had some pretty terrible games this season, too, and everyone deserves a mulligan once in a while if they are sick.

And if you're still thinking that Manu is better just because he scored 48 points in one game, I suggest you watch more basketball. While it's arguable that Manu is the better player, his ability to score 48 in one game doesn't really tell us much. Jamal Crawford can score 50 in a game, but that doesn't make him Jordan.

Don't forget, Spurs management considered Parker to be the better player last summer. If they hadn't, they wouldn't have chalked up more money for him. It's true that a good point guard is in more demand than a good swing player, but the Spurs were willing to spend more money for Parker.

It's possible that Manu has played better than his contract so far, but I'll argue that he's simply gotten an opportunity to do more. He's a good player with the capacity to be brilliant at times, but he isn't able to perform at a franchise-level player every night. Parker isn't either, for that matter. Let's not overrate either.

Both are valuable to the team in many ways and both will need to play well in the playoffs if the Spurs are to win another championship. The Spurs are in good shape when fans are arguing about Manu and Parker making the all-star team. Things are good. Both players need to be more consistent before I'll consider them to be all-stars. Both have the talent, but they still need to mature a little bit.

The best is still ahead of us.

[Kori Ellis]

I don't think Tony will have a good game tonight. The flu has been hanging on to the Spurs players for a while, and if he just got it recently then he's not going to be over it this quickly. Duncan and Devin reportedly had it for 2-3 weeks. But the Parker bashers will continue to bash him if he doesn't play well, even if he's out there with a 102 fever.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

Amen, and considering we still haven't brought over Luis Scola, we dont know what could possibly be instore for us, perhaps another draft day steal.

Did you guys buy Bill Walton's assesment that Manu was the biggest draft day steal ever?

[MaNuMaNiAc]

You have, well explain how well Ginobilli did at the beginning of the season, his sudden and pronounced drop off, and his sudden re-emegence.

What's there to explain?? He started HOT, cooled down to about 13 points per game (except maybe during those big games where he outscored everyone on the team) and then he increased his point average to what it is now. I wouldn't start a discussion on PPG if I were you, Parker is averaging 3.7 more minutes on the floor than Manu this season, and still has a lower PPG average than Ginobili (granted its a small diference, but still lower). Either way, I specifically mentioned that in my point of view, consistance involves other aspects other than points, and like I said, if you don't have facts don't bother arguing. The ball is on your court.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

MJ played pretty well a few times when he was sick, maybe parker will also

[RobinsontoDuncan]

What's there to explain?? He started HOT, cooled down to about 13 points per game (except maybe during those big games where he outscored everyone on the team) and then he increased his point average to what it is now. I wouldn't start a discussion on PPG if I were you, Parker is averaging 3.7 more minutes on the floor than Manu this season, and still has a lower PPG average than Ginobili (granted its a small diference, but still lower). Either way, I specifically mentioned that in my point of view, consistance involves other aspects other than points, and like I said, if you don't have facts don't bother arguing. The ball is on your court.


ok so going hot then cooling off very considerably isn't inconsisitant?
BTW Parker started off slowly, then he gradually increased his PPG to what it is now, I might be wrong but i'm pretty sure before the Phoenix game, Parker's was higher (actually im positive)

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Averaging 3.7 more minutes per game warrants a very much larger diference than the meager .2 point differential TP had over Manu before the Suns game. Either way its higher now

[GoldToe]

I think he is but I'm biased.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

Considering Tony's primary function is to Pass (he has way more assists per game) i would dis-agree

[smeagol]

I don't think Tony will have a good game tonight. The flu has been hanging on to the Spurs players for a while, and if he just got it recently then he's not going to be over it this quickly. Duncan and Devin reportedly had it for 2-3 weeks. But the Parker bashers will continue to bash him if he doesn't play well, even if he's out there with a 102 fever.
The Spur players need to stop hugging and kissing so much.

The flu is contagious!

[smeagol]

MaNuMaNiA, I agree with most of what you are saying, but then again, I'm biased, I'm from Argentina.

Welcome to the forum!

[MaNuMaNiAc]

People!!! I AM NOT BASHING ON TP!!! This whole thing started with my objecting to Ducks comments about how Manu's performance doesn't mean much. I just meant to say that in my opinion it proved that Manu "can kick it right up there with the rest of them" as they say. I DO NOT THINK PARKER IS A WORSE PLAYER, I DO NOT THINK HIS PERFORMANCE ON FRIDAY WAS AN INDICATION OF HOW HE PLAYS, AND I CERTAINLY AM NOT BASHING HIM. So please cool down your jets and lets get back on topic!

[MaNuMaNiAc]

MaNuMaNiA, I agree with most of what you are saying, but then again, I'm biased, I'm from Argentina.

Welcome to the forum!

Thanks for the welcome

[RobinsontoDuncan]

I'm sorry i can tell you're new, we're not bashing you, we are just bored and therfore kicking a dead horse until it's gone, that's the way it is here, Unless sequ is talking we're all pretty much just having a friendly discussion

[MaNuMaNiAc]

I'm sorry i can tell you're new, we're not bashing you, we are just bored and therfore kicking a dead horse until it's gone, that's the way it is here, Unless sequ is talking we're all pretty much just having a friendly discussion


Don't worry, didn't think you were bashing me, just thought I should clarify that I'm not a TP hater or anything of the sort. Still, I've got to say, I like the intensity of the discussions, shows how much heart and passion for this game we Spurs fans have. I rather have a forum such as this than a graveyard-shift like one.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

( uh that would be "we" spurs fans have) and exactly glad you see it that way, but Parker is still the more efficent player beacuse of his assists

[MaNuMaNiAc]

( uh that would be "we" spurs fans have) and exactly glad you see it that way, but Parker is still the more efficent player beacuse of his assists

HAHAHAH! I see the horse isn't dead enough! Very well, everyone has the right to his or her opinion. We'll leave it at that.


( uh that would be "we" spurs fans have)

My appologies for the mistake, it will be corrected immediately! lol

[RobinsontoDuncan]

great job, ducks would be so un-proud

[ducks]

look spurs have not played for a few days

the eagles game was not that exciting after the 3 quarter
and spurs did not play tell this evening

I just think tp is better then manu at this point this year
not talking about last year

[ducks]

MaNuMaNiA
I posted in a differnet thread that someone started manu is not god
I posted in there he was last night

he had a great outing
tp has had great outings also this season

[ducks]

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9334&page=2

[RobinsontoDuncan]

Manu was shit against the kings going for ten one game after 48, talk about inconsitancy MANUMANIA!

[smeagol]

Manu was shit against the kings going for ten one game after 48, talk about inconsitancy MANUMANIA!
He only took 8 shots with 50% accuracy.

Moreover, no need for him to go off. The Kings sucked donkey's ass.

He had a nice circus shot, though.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Manu was shit against the kings going for ten one game after 48, talk about inconsitancy MANUMANIA!


I thought we settled this man, but obviously you seem obsesed with this shit! I'm not going to start again on something I've already explained to you. If you think he is inconsistant then good for you, obviously you haven't looked carefully at the stats and considered the same angles that I have. Plus, I wouldn't say he was shit, he just came of a 48 point game fool, I think even fucking Shaq would be tired, don't you?! You precious Tony Parker does shit for one game, and then fairly decent on the next, I wouldn't call that consistant either.... You know what, I can't even believe I argueing with you about this same shit. Think what you will! AND NEXT TIME YOU TRY AND ARGUE SOMETHING WITH ME BRING MORE THAN JUST DUMB COMMENTS LIKE THOSE!

[Kori Ellis]

I can't believe Spurs fans keep fighting over which Spurs are better. They are both Spurs. Root for BOTH of them. Enjoy BOTH of them. Treasure BOTH of them. They are BOTH valuable to the success of this Spurs team.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

I can't believe Spurs fans keep fighting over which Spurs are better. They are both Spurs. Root for BOTH of them. Enjoy BOTH of them. Treasure BOTH of them. They are BOTH valuable to the success of this Spurs team.

That's what I've been saying, I like both of them, but these dumb pricks keep thinking I'm trashing on TP just because I believe Manu is at the same level. If I sounded like I don't enjoy how TP plays, then I apologize. I think he is definately one of the best point guards in the league.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

This thread was started to support Manu, but even though i think he is a better all-star candidate due to his games against Phoenix I think Parker is more effective.

[TMTTRIO]

Parker may be a little bit better scoring wise, but Manu is probably one of the most exciting and efficient players around the league and can make things happen at the most important times of the game and usually is clutch. I even remember hearing Magic Johnson last year call him one of the most exciting international players around. He's really starting to build a fan club with all the commentators. They're both very important to our success and I'm glad we have both of them.

[waly.mg]

Not anymore.

Ginobili 15.7
Parker 15.5

Probably now Manu is the Second Scorer, but doesn´t matter

Manu will never be the Second Scorer if Tony take more shots and play more minutes

Now by 48 Minutes Manu scores 25,5 and Tony 22,3
By Game Tony Shoot 554 times and Manu 423
Tony have a Better %: 49,1% to 48%, but that´s because Manu shot more threes: 145 for Manu and Tony 88

Really, Tony Shoot 49,1%, 53,2% from 2 and 27,3% from behind
Manu Shoot 48%, 52,9% from 2 and 38,6% from behind
From 2 there aren´t any difference, but for 3 there are a big one

The Ket stat is Tony Shoots 466 from 2 and Manu shoots only 278
Obviously Tont must to take better %

[waly.mg]

Manu was shit against the kings going for ten one game after 48, talk about inconsitancy MANUMANIA!

Inconsistency is 25 points one game with 50 % FG, and 2 points; 1 of 9 in the next and the Coach needs to sit him in the Doghouse in one big game

Probably the only Stat what you can see is Points

[Dartherus]

To ducks and Manyu bashers...why no one of these guys who diminish manu answer this when stating that Parker is 'better' or more 'efficient'? BTW, Basketball IQ (where Manu is faaar better than Tony, wasn't considered in the original answer).... current Efficiency stats? 17.17 for Manu, 15.7 for Tony...


tp has proved he is the second best player so far this season
manu has not
Care to explain how TP has proven it? Manu stats are better (check at NBA.com, Manu now has better even stats in PPG (15.7 for Manu and 15.5 for Tony), the Tony's major strenght), Manu this season and the past season, had better Efficiency ranking stats (more complete stats than just scoring), had better "+/- stats" (the stats counting the point Spurs scored and the received during the minutes the player is in action).

FYI, Manu has had the second best stats in Efficiency Ranking and '+/- points' in these 2 latest seasons, behind Duncan and AHEAD Parker, for instance, in the last season , Shaq and Kobe leade those stats for the Lakers, does this mean something to you?

I would also ask you...scoring option implies always beeing a better player or a more important one? would you consider Dennis Rodman in the jordan's Bulls beeing less important to other Bulls' role players just because he was scoring less than those role players?

[Athenea]

MANUMANIA: WELCOME TO THE FORUM :elephant :elephant :elephant
U couldn't express my thoughts better than u already did.
Do I think TP is waaay better than last season?? YES
Do I think he should improve in the clutch department (and I mean crunch time + big games)? Yes
Is TP a better all-around player than last season? U bet!

PS: So TP playing awfully w/the flu is heroic????? What about Manu w/both injured thighs and a sprained ankle??? Worth Man of the Year award??

[MaNuMaNiAc]

MANUMANIA: WELCOME TO THE FORUM :elephant :elephant :elephant
U couldn't express my thoughts better than u already did.
Do I think TP is waaay better than last season?? YES
Do I think he should improve in the clutch department (and I mean crunch time + big games)? Yes
Is TP a better all-around player than last season? U bet!

PS: So TP playing awfully w/the flu is heroic????? What about Manu w/both injured thighs and a sprained ankle??? Worth Man of the Year award??

Thanks for the Welcome, and EXACTLY WHAT I'M SAYING! LOL

[Ginofan]

Just to stir the pot a little more... :)

Player Pairs (http://www.82games.com/ppairs0405.htm)

[Ghost Writer]

You people still think Parker brings it every night?

I must be watching the worng games or looking at incorrect box scores.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

Well Ghost, next time you have the flu go to work and be just as effective, ok?

[Ghost Writer]

Look up the new corporate term: presenteeism.

It's when people show up sick and actually drain the workplace of more productivity than if they just stayed the hell at home.

Does Tony have the flu everytime he has a sub-par game?

[RobinsontoDuncan]

Maybe, but considering there isn't a player anywhere that doesn't suffer those, certainly not PGs or 22 year old PG's at that, I am not concerned over his every sub-par game.

Hey Ghost, are you aware that earlier in the season, Bruce Bowen outscored Kobe Bryant? Does that qualify as a sub-par game to you? Then would it make sense to expect perfection from Tony? While you're at it, think about the month Tim was having before the Pheonix game.

[SequSpur]

Tony Parker

Has scored in double figures 37 times.

Has had 15 games of 5 rebounds or more.

Has had 31 games of 5 assists or more.

Has shot 50% on FG's in 25 games.

Has scored 20 points or more in 14 games.

Has scored in single digits 9 times.

Manu Ginobili

Has scored in double figures 33 times.

Has had 18 games of 5 rebounds or more.

Has had 13 games of 5 assists or more.

Has shot 50% or better in 20 games.

Has scored 20 points or more in 10 games.

Has scored in single digits 7 times.

Parker wins.

[Nikos]

Tony Parker

Has scored in double figures 37 times.

Has had 15 games of 5 rebounds or more.

Has had 31 games of 5 assists or more.

Has shot 50% on FG's in 25 games.

Has scored 20 points or more in 14 games.

Has scored in single digits 9 times.

Manu Ginobili

Has scored in double figures 33 times.

Has had 18 games of 5 rebounds or more.

Has had 13 games of 5 assists or more.

Has shot 50% or better in 20 games.

Has scored 20 points or more in 10 games.

Has scored in single digits 7 times.

Parker wins.

Considering Manu is way more efficient at scoring, that statement is false. Manu makes more FTs at a better %, and hits more 3pters, and takes less shots in general.

Im not arguing who the better player is cause I think they have the same value, but to say Parker has been scoring more efficiently and even way more consistently, is flat out false.

[smeagol]

Considering Manu is way more efficient at scoring, that statement is false. Manu makes more FTs at a better %, and hits more 3pters, and takes less shots in general.

Im not arguing who the better player is cause I think they have the same value, but to say Parker has been scoring more efficiently and even way more consistently, is flat out false.
Logic does not work with Mr. Sequ

[ducks]

Look up the new corporate term: presenteeism.

It's when people show up sick and actually drain the workplace of more productivity than if they just stayed the hell at home.

Does Tony have the flu everytime he has a sub-par game?

no but does tim duncan
stephen jackson?

[whottt]

Segu plaigerized MI21's post...

[Rick Von Braun]

Segu plaigerized MI21's post...Sequ has hit rock bottom... he cannot even come up with his own sheyittt and he has to plagiarize material from some other poster without acknowledgment http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gif

[Rick Von Braun]

Spree has a better chance of making the team
:lmao

[RobinsontoDuncan]

I want people to realize that Tony is one of the reasons Manu is so efficent, does Kobe play with a PG as good as Tony?

[MaNuMaNiAc]

You can want all you want, but that don't mean its going to happen! Manu is quite effective on his own. Not to say that he isn't better with Tony.

[SequSpur]

Segu plaigerized MI21's post...

WTF? Who is that?

[Nikos]

I don't think Tony is the primary reason for Manu being efficient. Duncan makes both of them a little more efficient in their roles. Actually Tim is the presense that makes everyone able to play their roles AND win games.

Who knows what Parker and Manu would do alone, maybe on other teams their GLORY STATS would be better AKA Pts + Reb +Ast +Steals. But I wouldn't say either player is more or less efficient because of each other. Its the team system, and that starts with Duncan.

[Dartherus]

Tony Parker

Has scored in double figures 37 times.

Has had 15 games of 5 rebounds or more.

Has had 31 games of 5 assists or more.

Has shot 50% on FG's in 25 games.

Has scored 20 points or more in 14 games.

Has scored in single digits 9 times.

Manu Ginobili

Has scored in double figures 33 times.

Has had 18 games of 5 rebounds or more.

Has had 13 games of 5 assists or more.

Has shot 50% or better in 20 games.

Has scored 20 points or more in 10 games.

Has scored in single digits 7 times.

Parker wins.

Sequ and the others, wich is more objective, your post or the efficiency ranking? what about '+/- stats'
do you know that 2 season in a row Manu is AHEAD Parker and Behind Duncan in those stats

Again, why no one of the guys who claim that Tony is better than Manu answer this following post in a RATIONAL WAY? care to use arguments and baksetball knowledge instead of just looking the scoring?

CHALLENGE: ANSWER THIS WITH ARGUMENTS

To ducks and Manyu bashers...why no one of these guys who diminish manu answer this when stating that Parker is 'better' or more 'efficient'? BTW, Basketball IQ (where Manu is faaar better than Tony, wasn't considered in the original answer).... current Efficiency stats? 17.17 for Manu, 15.7 for Tony...


Care to explain how TP has proven to be better than manu? Manu stats are better (check at NBA.com, Manu this season and the past season, had better Efficiency ranking stats (more complete stats than just scoring), had better "+/- stats" (the stats counting the point Spurs scored and the received during the minutes the player is in action).

FYI, Manu has had the second best stats in Efficiency Ranking and '+/- points' in these 2 latest seasons, behind Duncan and AHEAD Parker, for instance, in the last season , Shaq and Kobe leade those stats for the Lakers, does this mean something to you?

I would also ask you...scoring option implies always beeing a better player or a more important one? would you consider Dennis Rodman in the jordan's Bulls beeing less important to other Bulls' role players just because he was scoring less than those role players?

[Obvious]

I want people to realize that Tony is one of the reasons Manu is so efficent, does Kobe play with a PG as good as Tony?
Are you kidding? Manu probably is the fourth option for TP (first himself, second TD, third anybody free and fourth Manu if it is totally necessary). Efficiency depend many times how many easy balls you receive. That’s why Manu made highest score with Beno by far.

[waly.mg]

Yeah

In the Suns games Manu played so well because Tony run the Ofense.

Good Joke

[Slo spurs fan]

Are you drunk?^^^^

[Rick Von Braun]

Are you drunk?^^^^
Slo, I think Waly was being sarcastic.

[Frenchise player]

Sequ and the others, wich is more objective, your post or the efficiency ranking? what about '+/- stats'
do you know that 2 season in a row Manu is AHEAD Parker and Behind Duncan in those stats

Again, why no one of the guys who claim that Tony is better than Manu answer this following post in a RATIONAL WAY? care to use arguments and baksetball knowledge instead of just looking the scoring?

CHALLENGE: ANSWER THIS WITH ARGUMENTS

To ducks and Manyu bashers...why no one of these guys who diminish manu answer this when stating that Parker is 'better' or more 'efficient'? BTW, Basketball IQ (where Manu is faaar better than Tony, wasn't considered in the original answer).... current Efficiency stats? 17.17 for Manu, 15.7 for Tony...


Care to explain how TP has proven to be better than manu? Manu stats are better (check at NBA.com, Manu this season and the past season, had better Efficiency ranking stats (more complete stats than just scoring), had better "+/- stats" (the stats counting the point Spurs scored and the received during the minutes the player is in action).

FYI, Manu has had the second best stats in Efficiency Ranking and '+/- points' in these 2 latest seasons, behind Duncan and AHEAD Parker, for instance, in the last season , Shaq and Kobe leade those stats for the Lakers, does this mean something to you?

I would also ask you...scoring option implies always beeing a better player or a more important one? would you consider Dennis Rodman in the jordan's Bulls beeing less important to other Bulls' role players just because he was scoring less than those role players?
I think you have to look at how Pop manage his roster during a game.
You will see that Manu is playing almost all of his time with Duncan.
TP doesn't play with Duncan in the end of first and third quarter, in that time he has to find a way to run the offense without Duncan, that's why also he has better stats than Manu.
I think that it's hard to say that any of the two is better for the Spurs, they are both great players who will be I am sure the best backourt in the League for the next seasons.
To all the people that thinks Tp don't want to pass to Manu: you have to consider that Tp plays most of his game obeing the orders of coach pop, he used for two seasons to give the ball to Duncan in every play, I am sure that within few months, they will learn to play better together because the good players understand each other very well.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

Without TP this team wouldn't be a title contender, he runs the offense well and provides more quickness at the 1 than any guard in the league, creating many of the spurs points with his penetration which breaks down the defense and causes easy baskets.

Manu throws down sick dunks, makes flashy plays, and has a more "all-star" image

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Without TP this team wouldn't be a title contender, he runs the offense well and provides more quickness at the 1 than any guard in the league, creating many of the spurs points with his penetration which breaks down the defense and causes easy baskets.

Manu throws down sick dunks, makes flashy plays, and has a more "all-star" image

We'll just agree to disagree! how about that?

[Manu20]

Manu and Parker are both equally as important to the team. And if neither of them make the All-Star team this year they are both a lock for next year's all star team.

[Brodels]

Sequ and the others, wich is more objective, your post or the efficiency ranking? what about '+/- stats'
do you know that 2 season in a row Manu is AHEAD Parker and Behind Duncan in those stats

Again, why no one of the guys who claim that Tony is better than Manu answer this following post in a RATIONAL WAY? care to use arguments and baksetball knowledge instead of just looking the scoring?

CHALLENGE: ANSWER THIS WITH ARGUMENTS

To ducks and Manyu bashers...why no one of these guys who diminish manu answer this when stating that Parker is 'better' or more 'efficient'? BTW, Basketball IQ (where Manu is faaar better than Tony, wasn't considered in the original answer).... current Efficiency stats? 17.17 for Manu, 15.7 for Tony...


Care to explain how TP has proven to be better than manu? Manu stats are better (check at NBA.com, Manu this season and the past season, had better Efficiency ranking stats (more complete stats than just scoring), had better "+/- stats" (the stats counting the point Spurs scored and the received during the minutes the player is in action).

FYI, Manu has had the second best stats in Efficiency Ranking and '+/- points' in these 2 latest seasons, behind Duncan and AHEAD Parker, for instance, in the last season , Shaq and Kobe leade those stats for the Lakers, does this mean something to you?

I would also ask you...scoring option implies always beeing a better player or a more important one? would you consider Dennis Rodman in the jordan's Bulls beeing less important to other Bulls' role players just because he was scoring less than those role players?

If you don't think that scoring is a good indicator of a player's quality, you can't possibly believe in efficiency ratings. Efficiency ratings are fun to talk about but they don't necessarily reveal that one player is better than another.

Your use of efficiency ratings is laughable since you challenge other posters on their use of scoring as an indicator of a player's effectiveness.

Either stats work for you or they don't. You can't skirt the middle and use stats when they work in your favor and ignore them when they don't. In a way, those you are bantering with have more coherent arguments because they are consistent.


(where Manu is faaar better than Tony, wasn't considered in the original answer)

That statement is just as subjective as anything else anyone is saying in this thread. If you're going to challenge others for not bringing and argument, then humor me: prove to me that Manu is 'far' better than Parker regarding basketball IQ. And please define 'far.'

The fact is, if you believe in efficiency ratings as a tell-all, you believe that Shawn Marion is better than Shaq and Kobe, Dirk Nowitski is better than Duncan, Brad Miller is better than Steve Nash, and Kurt Thomas is better than Manu. While efficiency ratings can be useful, I'll take Sequ's observations over a bunch of statistics that you use only selectively.

Personally, I'm not sure that Parker is better than Manu. But I do think he's more important to the team. I think he's more important because he'd be more difficult to replace, he has less nights where he contributes very little than Manu does, and he can play more minutes without completely wearing himself out. After watching both for most of the season, I'm convinced that Manu is about as good as he's going to get and that Tony can still improve. Tony is younger and has more upside.

Is Tony a better player? I wouldn't say that. But if forced to choose, I would take him over Manu. And not because some efficiency rating that also 'proved' Marion is better than Kobe would tell me to. Watching games has taught me so much more.

[Rick Von Braun]

...
I'll take Sequ's observations over...I've lost all respect for your takes then :lol

[MI21]

Considering Manu is way more efficient at scoring, that statement is false. Manu makes more FTs at a better %, and hits more 3pters, and takes less shots in general.

Im not arguing who the better player is cause I think they have the same value, but to say Parker has been scoring more efficiently and even way more consistently, is flat out false.

Sequ has copied a post of mine that was talking about how Manu and Parker aren't really that inconsistent. It wasn't meant as a pure comparison between the two, but to show the doubters that they are pretty consistent. In no way was it meant to be a competition between the two.

Btw Sequ, if you are going to copy and paste someone elses posts, give them credit and dont add extra things like "Parker wins" at the end.


Sequ has hit rock bottom... he cannot even come up with his own sheyittt and he has to plagiarize material from some other poster without acknowledgment

Not to mention using the post in the wrong fucking context. Not meant for comparison between the two and there consistency versus each other, there is to many variables for those stats to be exact if used to compare players.

[Nikos]

Just for the record, I think the EFF rating on NBA.com is awful in comparison with other methods of determining a players efficiency.

Plus it does not take into account PACE of games, or what the opponents do against you. Its just a simple accumulation of stats minus turnovers. Does not tell the whole story or even a decent one at that.

[SequSpur]

Mi21?

WTF are you talking about?


Sequ has copied a post of mine that was talking about how Manu and Parker aren't really that inconsistent. It wasn't meant as a pure comparison between the two, but to show the doubters that they are pretty consistent. In no way was it meant to be a competition between the two.

Btw Sequ, if you are going to copy and paste someone elses posts, give them credit and dont add extra things like "Parker wins" at the end.

Don't be a wuss. Your breakdown specifically shows that Parker is above Manu Ginobili. As far as inconsistent goes. Parker is the definition. Watch a game and put down your calculator their chief.

Next time you don't want your hard work copied, then file for a copyright so no one won't infringe on it.

Next time you want to discuss something, drop me a pm or meet me at the HEB on Military and Zarzamora.

Keep up the great work MI21. You made my argument easier.

Parker > Manu.

[manustarting2gd]

Who gives a fuck! They are on the same team for the billionth time!

[SequSpur]

Exactly bro.......

But Parker should get the nod before Manu.

[Brodels]

I've lost all respect for your takes then :lol

Perhaps I did go a little too far with that one :lol

[Obvious]

I’m new here and I have some questions and some comments for you.
Do you really think there is not any competition between TP and Manu to be the second offensive option?
Do you think there is not any kind of jealous from TP to Manu?
Did you see the TP forced smile each time Manu scored against the Suns? I saw that at least six times, the guys from ESPN showed that many times because it was a very particular attitude.
Did you see at least one time Tony cheering Manu for a score or something?
Obviously I'm Manu fan, but I'm wrong?
Thank you for your answers.
Cheers,

[Dartherus]

To Tony lovers and Manu bashers?

Manu have better Effciency stats AND better '+/- stats' (2 former regular seasons and playoff), that's a FACT easy to verify, not a subjective statement. Now some questions....

why everyone tries to discard Efficiency stats and rely on just scoring for stating that tony is better?

Why no one talk about the better '+/- stats'?

why try to discard Efficiency ranking based on comparisons between players from DIFFERENT teams?

why don't you check NBA teams and see wich players have the highest efficency? wouldn't the best players would have the best efficiency, when comparing players of the SAME TEAM? Does it happen the same with scoring? (Ben Wallace and Dennis Rodman?)

Why don't you ask some friends of yours with real basketball knowledge and ask them if it isn't noticeable that Manu has greater Basketball IQ than Tony? would you tell the answers gotten here?

Why Tony didn't show leadership and Manu did ? (wheter in Euroleague, on his NT or when Tim was injured?)

I'll b waiting for these answers.

[LilMissSPURfect]

:elephant :elephant :elephant :elephant :elephant :elephant

I love Parker in Leading the SPURS! BUT BUT BUT

I would Love to see MANU running/leading the ALLSTAR team! (as a Point Guard)!!!!!!


OOOOOOOOOOOOOhhhhhh MAAAAAAAMMMMA!

[Phenomanul]

I’m new here and I have some questions and some comments for you.
Do you really think there is not any competition between TP and Manu to be the second offensive option?
Do you think there is not any kind of jealous from TP to Manu?
Did you see the TP forced smile each time Manu scored against the Suns? I saw that at least six times, the guys from ESPN showed that many times because it was a very particular attitude.
Did you see at least one time Tony cheering Manu for a score or something?
Obviously I'm Manu fan, but I'm wrong?
Thank you for your answers.
Cheers,

Tony was the first one to jump off the bench when Manu dunked in overtime.... don't read too much into it.....

[waly.mg]

More than 150,000 peolpe thin that Manu is Better than Tony

There are 426,406 people in the All Star Ballot who think that Manu is one of the 2 better guards of the NBA and 274,521 who think that tony is one of the 2 best ones and consider that many put a PG and a SG, and while Tont only has of Rival to Nash, Manu has to Kobe, T-Mac and Ray Allen

[waly.mg]

Tony was the first one to jump off the bench when Manu dunked in overtime.... don't read too much into it.....

Probably yes, but the Only Happy Face of Tony in The 4th and The Overtime
must have been that, but In all that time had Poker Face

[Phenomanul]

Probably yes, but the Only Happy Face of Tony in The 4th and The Overtime
must have been that, but In all that time had Poker Face


Remember Manu said that Tony had "flu-like" symptoms... You wouldn't look all that excited if you were benched because you couldn't perform while sick.

[ALVAREZ6]

Parker > Manu.
So why is Parker>Manu?


Because he isn't a hot dog?

If you think Manu is a hot dog/balla from And 1, then wtf do you think AI is?

Manu has proven that he is a good leader, and is just more exciting.period.

Manu led his team in Olympics.
He also stepped up during Duncan's injury last year.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

I think you people are going too far with this whole Tony/Manu rivalry. Those of you who claim TP doesn't celebrate when Manu scores, haven't been watching very closely, I've seen him high five, jump up, laugh and do all sorts of things after a Manu-esque performance. IMO they both respect each other, and they are both extremely good basketball players which brings with itself an inherent sort of friendly competition. Having said that, I also believe that TP is more of the kind of guy that likes to show off, and Manu isn't as much. I know, I know, you wouldn't think so after seeing some of the plays he does, but I would dare say that's just the way he plays, fancy only when he has to.

[Kori Ellis]

Remember Manu said that Tony had "flu-like" symptoms... You wouldn't look all that excited if you were benched because you couldn't perform while sick.

Right. Tony was sick that day. He didn't do much cheering at all. There's nothing but love and respect between Tony and Manu. People have been trying to say that they don't like each other for the past couple years. It's ridiculous. They are teammates with a common goal -- a championship. And it will take great games by both of them to get there.

[Obvious]

Tony was the first one to jump off the bench when Manu dunked in overtime.... don't read too much into it.....
Thank you Hegamboa for your answer but please see again the video and put focus on my comment about Tony face in the whole game. If he not jumped after that incredible Manu's dunk would be too much.
That's really not important but show something, which is natural because in some way they are competing, that is almost obvious.
Anyway, Tony is one of the best spg on the NBA with an incredible future but probably because his youth show by now some of this attitude.
Cheers,

[pepito51]

POINTS??
so bowen should be traded... Tp handles all the game of spurs... manu is a creative player who brings so nice moves and has proven he can be a "killer" for scoring when it counts...
how can you compare them... they dont even play at the same position. But one thing is sure.... both will improve. Parker has been able to shut down some great PG like nash, arenas... i would not have done it some seaons ago for sure.
Manu has scored 48.... don't think he would have been able to do it last season, he has stepped up.... i used to watch him in Europe.... he was even better than today cause he had more responsabilities... during olympic tournament, he impressed everybody...

but please dont value a player on how many points he can score during ONE night... yesterday, scalabrine scored something like 30..... so you would suddenly place him on the all star list.... please...

[pepito51]

Why Tony didn't show leadership and Manu did ? (wheter in Euroleague, on his NT or when Tim was injured?)

I'll b waiting for these answers.

NO leadership for the french team... how can write this??
Tp has been playing really well during the last matchs.... some other players just sucked like wahad or moiso, but tp scored when he had too and even took the last shot ( even if at this time he failed badly!!)

who is shooting on the court each night.. tp or manu, i bet it's more tp who has to control all the attack...

i think everybody forget something... TP is the point guard of.... of who???.... of popovich....!!!!! that means that 90% of the systems are effective and 50% are targeted to Tmi duncan who decide then to score or to pass....
every points that tp scores.. he creates his own shoot or layup.. what about he had more systems for him.... sure he could score more
but is it what spurs need.. no, and tp is a great pg because he accepts and likes this discipline and organisation... he's unselfish like manu, bruce.. even rasho used to score more in minesota... but who care's.....
is basketball a statistic game or a collective game??

[pepito51]

who is shooting on the court each night.. tp or manu, i bet it's more tp who has to control all the attack...



i meant "shouting" r talking on the court :angel

[rascal]

No way is Manu an all star this year.

It's all about the numbers and Manu doesn't have high enough totals.

Jason Richardson, A Miller and Bibby all would go before he would. Even Bobby Simmons has better numbers than Manu.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

No way is Manu an all star this year.

It's all about the numbers and Manu doesn't have high enough totals.

Jason Richardson, A Miller and Bibby all would go before he would. Even Bobby Simmons has better numbers than Manu.
If its all about the numbers why is Yao Ming a starter then?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

If it's all about the numbers Yao Ming wouldn't even be on the damn ballot. Lame argument.

It's not about the numbers, it's about who the fans/coaches want to see put on a show in a glorified street ball game.

I don't care who else is on it, just give me 20 minutes of Manu in a game like that and you'll have your All-Star game MVP.

[rascal]

Ming is getting voted in by the huge votes from over seas.

Its about the numbers when reserves are chosen. No way Manu goes and Richardson who is having a great breakout year scoring 20+ doesn't.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Ok lets put it this way, what's more lucrative, calling someone who would have millions of fans worldwide watching, like Manu, or calling someone that is just having a better PPG average because he is in a team that allows it. Seriously, I would bet money on the fact that making money is what the all-star games are all about.

[violentkitten]

looks like rascal needs to see some spurs games before he opens his fool mouth

[carolgino]

of course Manu is an All-star. i voted for him.

in china there's so many people voting for Yao and also for tracy..though we know Yao did not really good this year..i just hope he can improve himself and lead rockets to the play-offs

it seems there's an argument about Manu and Tony..em,in my opinion,they're on the same team and playing together for the same championship..
everyone could choose his star.and every choice is different.
i'm afaid coaches would possibly choose steve nash and ray allen..

anyway,i love Manu :blah :blah

[SequSpur]

Yao Ming is not very good.

[carolgino]

Yao Ming is not very good.it's Yao's third year in nba,and more and more players became to know him and his disavantages.it's a hard time for him.
sorry for my poor english,i don't know how to say more.
i just hope he can do better cos most chinese people are proud of him

[Slo spurs fan]

Carolgino, are you from China?

[carolgino]

Carolgino, are you from China?yes,i come from southeast of China.
nice to meet you here.
i love this game ^_^

[Slo spurs fan]

Send timvp PM and ask him for Chinese flag!

[carolgino]

ok.i didn't know that.
thank you.

[carolgino]

who know if there're other chinese here?many or just a few?

[waly.mg]

Thank you Hegamboa for your answer but please see again the video and put focus on my comment about Tony face in the whole game. If he not jumped after that incredible Manu's dunk would be too much.
That's really not important but show something, which is natural because in some way they are competing, that is almost obvious.
Anyway, Tony is one of the best spg on the NBA with an incredible future but probably because his youth show by now some of this attitude.
Cheers,

Tha same Poker face Tony had when Steve Kerr hit four 3 versus Dallas

http://www.athleticreporter.com/images/stories/1246_4360.jpg

[Kamnik_SLO]

i bet my little finger manu will be there...