Anybody else think it is goaltending

[honestfool84]

Every time Paul throws up an alley-oop pass to Chandler, and Chandler grabs the ball ABOVE the cylinder and slams it down?


Shouldn't that be goaltending EVERY TIME?

[m33p0]

if they called it strict, yeah it is. but if they did call it that way, you'd end a game with only 5 players on each side. it's "understood" that it was a pass and not a shot.

[MannyIsGod]

Every time Paul throws up an alley-oop pass to Chandler, and Chandler grabs the ball ABOVE the cylinder and slams it down?


Shouldn't that be goaltending EVERY TIME?

No.

[honestfool84]

if they called it strict, yeah it is. but if they did call it that way, you'd end a game with only 5 players on each side. it's "understood" that it was a pass and not a shot.



that doesn't change the fact that it is goal tending.

[MannyIsGod]

Its not. He has to catch it right above the cylinder and he's not.

[honestfool84]

but he does catch it right above the cylinder more often than not.

[JamStone]

No.

http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_11.html?nav=ArticleList


Section I-A Player Shall Not:
a. Touch the ball or the basket ring when the ball is using the basket ring as its lower base.
EXCEPTION: If a player near his own basket has his hand legally in contact with the ball, it is not a violation if his contact with the ball continues after the ball enters the cylinder, or if, in such action, he touches the basket.

Alley-oop is a shot attempt. Just like a regular dunk. Chandler has his hands on the ball for a dunk attempt, which means his hands are legally in contact with the ball when his hands come in contact with a ball that may be over the rim.

[MannyIsGod]

This is just a silly thread.

[ManuTim_best of Fwiendz]

:lol

Giving grief about a legitimate play for grief's sake.
Paul and Chandler are just really good at communicating.

[Obstructed_View]

Nah. That's a clear play. Everybody knows it's a pass. It's also a really exciting play, so making judgment calls about it would fuck the game up.

[honestfool84]

This is just a silly thread.


nah.
its not silly cause i didn't know the answer.


it could be considered silly now.
but then again, hindsight is always 20-20.

[ShoogarBear]

It's actually an interesting question. Basically, ithere has to be a judgment call by the official whether a shot or a pass is being attempted.


No.

http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_11.html?nav=ArticleList

Alley-oop is a shot attempt. Just like a regular dunk. Chandler has his hands on the ball for a dunk attempt, which means his hands are legally in contact with the ball when his hands come in contact with a ball that may be over the rim.

Disagree. On a regular dunk, the player attempting the shot starts out with his hands on the ball outside the cylinder. The rule you cited allows him to put his hands through the net with the ball and/or to touch the rim during the dunk.

On a lob pass, the shot doesn't start until the receiving player touches the ball. The rule you cited says nothing about what happens if when the first time he touches the ball it's already over the cylinder.

[ShoogarBear]

Its not. He has to catch it right above the cylinder and he's not.

You're saying he doesn't catch it above the cylinder. But if he (or anybody) does catch it above the cylinder, is it goaltending?

[ManuTim_best of Fwiendz]

nah.
its not silly cause i didn't know the answer.


it could be considered silly now.
but then again, hindsight is always 20-20.

No sweat.
Usually, it's easy to read the intended pass/lob, though.

but I can understand on some plays where it could look suspect.
I really hate how CP3 is so good at it.

[honestfool84]

You're saying he doesn't catch it above the cylinder. But if he (or anybody) does catch it above the cylinder, is it goaltending?



thank you.

that's my point - he DOES catch it above the cylinder many times.

[JamStone]

It's actually an interesting question. Basically, ithere has to be a judgment call by the official whether a shot or a pass is being attempted.



Disagree. On a regular dunk, the player attempting the shot starts out with his hands on the ball outside the cylinder. The rule you cited allows him to put his hands through the net with the ball and/or to touch the rim during the dunk.

On a lob pass, the shot doesn't start until the receiving player touches the ball. The rule you cited says nothing about what happens if when the first time he touches the ball it's already over the cylinder.

The rule doesn't say it has to start in the player's hands outside the cylinder either, only that his hand be legally in contact with the ball.

Of course it's discretionary whether it was intended as a pass or shot. Most rules need to be interpreted and can have multiple interpretations. And, many rules, like this one, is vague enough for that interpretation and some discretion.

But, it's pretty much 99% of the time, an alley-oop is not a goal tend even if the ball is over the cylinder before his hands touch the ball.

[MannyIsGod]

If he catches it RIGHT above the cylinder it is goal tending. Chandler doesn't do this. The ball would have to be exactly over the basket in order for this to be the case. Thats a really really really narrow space.

[Obstructed_View]

I saw a couple of times in the Phoenix series where Shaq seemed to misinterpret a shot as a lob pass and push it through, and I might consider that goaltending. When Chris Paul throws it up when the big trails him it's so clearly a pass that I wouldn't penalize Chandler for touching it above the cylinder, even if Paul threw it where it was coming down toward the rim, which it usually isn't anyway.

[ShoogarBear]

The rule doesn't say it has to start in the player's hands outside the cylinder either, only that his hand be legally in contact with the ball.

Aye, but there's the rub. "Legally in contact with the ball". Once the ball has been placed in the cylinder by somebody else, it's illegal to come in and touch it if there's no difference between a shot and a pass. If you're saying there is a difference, then by definition that's a judgment call.

[JamStone]

Aye, but there's the rub. "Legally in contact with the ball". Once the ball has been placed in the cylinder by somebody else, it's illegal to come in and touch it if there's no difference between a shot and a pass. If you're saying there is a difference, then by definition that's a judgment call.

I already said there is some discretion and judgment used.

Here's more:


c. For goaltending to occur, the ball, in the judgment of the official, must have a chance to score.

[timvp]

The rule doesn't say it has to start in the player's hands outside the cylinder either, only that his hand be legally in contact with the ball.

Of course it's discretionary whether it was intended as a pass or shot. Most rules need to be interpreted and can have multiple interpretations. And, many rules, like this one, is vague enough for that interpretation and some discretion.

But, it's pretty much 99% of the time, an alley-oop is not a goal tend even if the ball is over the cylinder before his hands touch the ball.No, Manny is right. It doesn't matter if it's a pass or a shot. It'd be goaltending if Chandler catches the ball when it's above the cylinder. If it's outside the cylinder, it's fair game.

I haven't seen any Chandler alleyoops that have been too close to goaltending.

[honestfool84]

No, Manny is right. It doesn't matter if it's a pass or a shot. It'd be goaltending if Chandler catches the ball when it's above the cylinder. If it's outside the cylinder, it's fair game.

I haven't seen any Chandler alleyoops that have been too close to goaltending.



yeah, i know manny is right on that call; but i have seen quite a few of those this series, and i think one or two, or three with nash/amare.







on a personal note, timvp, are you married to kori?

[MannyIsGod]

There were a couple close ones in the Suns series but even when they're goaltending its going to have to be very egregious to even have a shot at the call.

[JamStone]

No, Manny is right. It doesn't matter if it's a pass or a shot. It'd be goaltending if Chandler catches the ball when it's above the cylinder. If it's outside the cylinder, it's fair game.

I haven't seen any Chandler alleyoops that have been too close to goaltending.


Example of why that's not the case: If the pass is right over the cylinder when caught and was thrown like a bullet and still on the ascent. Plus, as I just posted, when a possible goal tend occurs, the ball had to have a chance to score. When the ball is not on its descent and doesn't have a chance to score, it's not a goal tend even if Chandler catches the ball over the cylinder.

[Obstructed_View]

There were a couple close ones in the Suns series but even when they're goaltending its going to have to be very egregious to even have a shot at the call.

Bottom line: Shaq didn't get called for any in the last series, so Chandler should NEVER be called for one in this series.

[ShoogarBear]

Bottom line: Shaq didn't get called for any in the last series, so Chandler should NEVER be called for one in this series.

Well, you mean other than the three-point goaltend . . .

[timvp]

Example of why that's not the case: If the pass is right over the cylinder when caught and was thrown like a bullet and still on the ascent. Plus, as I just posted, when a possible goal tend occurs, the ball had to have a chance to score. When the ball is not on its descent and doesn't have a chance to score, it's not a goal tend even if Chandler catches the ball over the cylinder.Damn, that'd take some hardcore geometry. I guess if someone was sitting on the ground and threw the ball up at a 45 degree angle and someone jumped up to about 12 feet and dunked it, that'd be legit.

[MannyIsGod]

Damn, that'd take some hardcore geometry. I guess if someone was sitting on the ground and threw the ball up at a 45 degree angle and someone jumped up to about 12 feet and dunked it, that'd be legit.

:lmao

[JamStone]

There are two points in that post. Don't forget the ball has to have a "chance to score" for it to be a goal tend.


c. For goaltending to occur, the ball, in the judgment of the official, must have a chance to score.

http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_11.html?nav=ArticleList

[ShoogarBear]

I've never seen "chance to score" applied to anything except shots that haven't reached the cylinder. Once it's in the cylinder, how is anyone going to say it doesn't have a chance?

[JamStone]

The ball traveling over the rim on a pass would generally not have a chance to score.

[MI21]

My understanding is that if a ball is in the imaginary cylinder generated by the hoop itself, it can not be touched, whether it be a pass, tip in, alley oop, tip dunk or rebound, without it being offensive interference / offensive goaltending.

[YoMamaIsCallin]

No.

http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_11.html?nav=ArticleList


This rule has nothing to do with the question. This rule allows a player who's dunking the ball to make contact with the rim as part of the dunking action. The question is, does Chandler commit offensive goaltending on the alley-oop play?

The answer is, if the ball is inside or partially inside the imaginary cylinder created by extending the rim upwards, no player can touch it. If the alley-oop pass is actually within the cylinder to the basket, the catch and dunk should be waved off.

I've seen it called, but it's pretty rare. Normally the alley-oop pass is to the side of the rim, and the player goes up and gets it while moving and slams it. It's pretty obvious if the ball is above the basket because the player catches it and throws it straight down.

I think the refs give the players the benefit of the doubt on this one, as they do on offensive rebound/putbacks.