Kareem on Horrys Historic night...

[xtremesteven33]

http://my.nba.com/forum.jspa?forumID=570005125


Robert Horry: Big shots, Hall of Fame chances and Breaking My Playoff Record of Games Played

Robert has been around because he understands how the game evolves over the 48 minutes. He knows how to do the right thing at the right time. He always seems to be at the right place at the right time to help his team win. He has had many standout shots in his career, but the one that stands out for me came against the Kings in Game 4 of the 2002 Western Conference Finals because of how fortunate he was on that play. Vlade Divac could have controlled that rebound but he just took it and threw it out of the paint and it went right to Robert Horry. If he tries to control that rebound and smothers it, Robert Horry doesn’t get that chance. So I attribute that one to Vlade Divac not understanding what he needed to do. Some of the other ones like when he was with Houston show that when the game comes to him he does good things with his opportunities. He seems to thrive on rare opportunities. Every time he gets it he does something great with it. He’s got to be a fan favorite for it.

As far as the Hall of Fame goes, you have to look at the whole career. His career in the playoffs has been remarkable. You look at the regular season, you might come to a different conclusion, but you can’t take away his success.

Robert is on the verge of passing my mark for the most games played in the playoffs. But we’re talking about two different eras. When I first started playing, if you won the world championship you only played in three rounds of playoffs. So it was an opportunity for him and he’s made the best of it.

[xtremesteven33]

i get a feeling were gonna see a "Robert Horry Moment" tonight.....

[timvp]

:cry

[JamStone]

Seriously. How necessary was his disclaimer that he only played in three rounds?

Dude, you played until you were 60.

Typical spoiled athlete these days. What ever happened to a handshake and pat on the back? Whatever happened to an "atta boy!"

[Bartleby]

Attributing Horry's shot against the Kings to Vlade's mistake was a back-handed compliment as well.

[urunobili]

classless comments from Kareem specially downplaying Horry's chances of making the HOF because of his regular season numbers... lame

[whottt]

Nice of Kareem to leave out that whole Magic Johnson 5 NBA championships 8 NBA Finals thing...


Come to think of it...nice of him to leave out that whole Oscar Robertson Championship thing as well...


Seriosuly, I normally have a tremendous amount of respect for Kareem and usually rank him as one of the top 3 players in history...but this entire commentary reflects badly of him.



Robert Horry got to play with Hakeem, Shaq and Duncan...


Kareem got to play with Oscar and Magic....



More than likely Kareem's just feeling insecure due to the fact that he played on a couple of teams that missed the playoffs(the only teams he was inarguably the best player on)...while Horry never has.

[alamo50]

classless comments from Kareem specially downplaying Horry's chances of making the HOF because of his regular season numbers... lame

You ever known a Faker with class (except Worthy and Green)?

[BlackSwordsMan]

He's jealous of Duncan's skyhook.

[whottt]

Horry = 7
Kareem = 6

Aint just the playoff games Kareem.

[ChumpDumper]

Regardless, the Spurs should have hired this guy as an assistant when he was begging for work.

[whottt]

I guess we can expect similar comments from Jordan concerning Horry...


Geez, if these guys want to know what that seventh ring feels like they should just ask Rob...niceness is always a better policy than bitterness.

[whottt]

Regardless, the Spurs should have hired this guy as an assistant when he was begging for work.


He's still begging for work. FWIW, I agree, but he still comes off as ungracious in this article...as if Horry is some kind of threat to him or something.

[JamStone]

Horry > Jordan > Magic > Duncan

[slowchild25]

I guess we can expect similar comments from Jordan concerning Horry...


Geez, if these guys want to know what that seventh ring feels like they should just ask Rob...niceness is always a better policy than bitterness.


You don't think Horry would trade careers with those two guys in a heartbeat?

[timvp]

Regardless, the Spurs should have hired this guy as an assistant when he was begging for work.From what I've heard, Kareem has as much dedication to coaching as Jackie Butler has to playing basketball.

[whottt]

You don't think Horry would trade careers with those two guys in a heartbeat?


Hmmm...I've seen Horry make contradicting statements on this..


Do you have some kind of insider knowledge? Or merely suggesting I give your unfounded opinion more weight than it deserves?

Please, do clarify...

[xtremesteven33]

From what I've heard, Kareem has as much dedication to coaching as Jackie Butler has to playing basketball.



hey hey...leave jackie butler out of this

[whottt]

From what I've heard, Kareem has as much dedication to coaching as Jackie Butler has to playing basketball.


Eh...Kareem's a pretty damn good coach from what little evidence exists.


Kareem never seems to be dedicated about anything, and it's been a criticism of him for his entire career..."seems" being they key phrase..

He seems to be disinterested and aloof, and always has...I think that's a case of perception more than actual reality.

[slowchild25]

Hmmm...I've seen Horry make contradicting statements on this..


Do you have some kind of insider knowledge? Or merely suggesting I give your unfounded opinion more weight than it deserves?

Please, do clarify...

I've only seen the one comment where he said he would trade rings to have a hall-of-fame/legendary type career and that most players would do the same. You where implying/joking that MJ and Kareem are jealous or bitter because Horry has more rings and I really don't think that is the case.

[whottt]

I've only seen the one comment where he said he would trade rings to have a hall-of-fame/legendary type career and that most players would do the same.

You don't think Horry has had a legendary HOF career?


I disagree...I think he's definitely had a legendary career. Definitely...

It's inarguable that he's had a legenday career...his name synonymous with winning championships and clutch shooting...as much as any superstar I can think of.


It it a HOF career?


Sure...

Hall of Fame

He's definitely famous...







You where implying/joking that MJ and Kareem are jealous or bitter because Horry has more rings and I really don't think that is the case.

#1. I was joking.
#2. I really wasn't joking.
#3. Kareem definitely comes off as bitter....it's pretty apparent that he actually feels the need to clarify that he was a Superstar and Horry was just a role player. He also says Horry shouldn't be in the HOF and seems to base his opinion on Horry's lack of statistical production...as if it was called the Hall of Stats, and not the Hall of Fame.


All I know? Is if regular season is going to start trumping post season...then some motherfuckers in these David Robinson arguments are going to be owing me some apologies...they know who they are.

[xtremesteven33]

i do think he deserves to be in the hall of fame for his contributions to teams and his clutchness in the games. hes right up there as far as his legend of being clutch with the likes of Jordan, Miller, and Magic.

[flipcritic]

Jesus Christ guys. It's Kareem Abdul Jabbar for Christ sake. He's not saying anything remotely bad about Horry and you guys are blasting him for being classless. This is beyond homerism.

[JamStone]

All I know? Is if regular season is going to start trumping post season...then some motherfuckers in these David Robinson arguments are going to be owing me some apologies...they know who they are.

Just to clarify...

So since the post season is more important than the regular season, you admit that you're wrong with those David Robinson arguments?

[baseline bum]

You ever known a Faker with class (except Worthy and Green)?

You're forgetting Magic. Having met the guy, it's easy to see why he's had so much success off the court since retiring.

[whottt]

Just to clarify...

So since the post season is more important than the regular season, you admit that you're wrong with those David Robinson arguments?

Not at all...


I just feel the post season is a better method of judging role players and the regular season is a better method of judging superstars.

Role players make the difference in the number of championships Superstars win...

[Budkin]

Kareem can't take it. Sorry Kareem.

[whottt]

Jesus Christ guys. It's Kareem Abdul Jabbar for Christ sake. He's not saying anything remotely bad about Horry and you guys are blasting him for being classless. This is beyond homerism.


False...he takes a big crap on Horry's clutchness...in fact he takes a big crap on what is arguably the greatest clutch shot in Laker history...he also takes a crap on Horry's career.


In case you weren't a fan back in 02...

When Horry hit that shot Vlade called it luck, and Horry definitely had a problem with that comment...if you can read, you will see that Kareem does the exact same thing...

I assure you, no one in the Lakers was calling it luck at the time he made it.


Kareem fails to realize that whether or not Horry was in the right place...he still hit the fucking shot, that's the point.


See...I disagree with Kareem here...I don't think have a dozen or so memorable and clutch shots is a product of luck...


I think getting drafted by or traded to, teams that then were able to aquire Oscar Robertson and Magic Johnson is...

[E20]

False...he takes a big crap on Horry's clutchness...in fact he takes a big crap on what is arguably the greatest clutch shot in Laker history...he also takes a crap on Horry's career.


In case you weren't a fan back in 02...

When Horry hit that shot Vlade called it luck, and Horry definitely had a problem with that comment...if you can read, you will see that Kareem does the exact same thing...

I assure you, no one in the Lakers was calling it luck at the time he made it.


Kareem fails to realize that whether or not Horry was in the right place...he still hit the fucking shot, that's the point.


See...I disagree with Kareem here...I don't think have a dozen or so memorable and clutch shots is a product of luck...


I think getting drafted by or traded to, teams that then were able to aquire Oscar Robertson and Magic Johnson is...

w/o an arguement the greatest clutch shot in Laker history is West's 60 ft heave or Kareem's 20 ft sky hook. Doesn't matter which you can take your pick.

[Mr. Body]

Kareem is a legend, but is also known to be a bit self-serving. I'll give him a pass; he's earned it many times over.

[pawe]

Jesus Christ guys. It's Kareem Abdul Jabbar for Christ sake. He's not saying anything remotely bad about Horry and you guys are blasting him for being classless. This is beyond homerism.

How many times do you have to defile the name of your maker just to get your point across?

[baseline bum]

w/o an arguement the greatest clutch shot in Laker history is West's 60 ft heave or Kareem's 20 ft sky hook. Doesn't matter which you can take your pick.

Kareem's famous skyhook game-winner was when he was on Milwaukee, dumbass.

b_wTf33xbjQ

[whottt]

w/o an arguement

Well...that little point is about to get premanently flushed...in this very post.


Because here is your argument...



the greatest clutch shot in Laker history is West's 60 ft heave or Kareem's 20 ft sky hook. Doesn't matter which you can take your pick.


Without a doubt, fewer people remember and watched those shots, who they were against, and the details behind them...then Horry's.


In fact...I'm 100% certain you didn't watch either of those shots at the time....whereas I feel pretty confident you probably did see Horry's shot...

I imagine on this very forum there might be at the most 10-15 people who saw the shots you mentioned...while possibly thousands saw Horry's.


Additionally...the bringing up of Jerry West in any sort of clutch discussion only proves to me that the LA media has the power to induce mass stupidity...

Calling a guy who lost like 30 fucking NBA finals, "Mr. Clutch" is like calling Yasser Arafat "Mr. Israel".

[hater]

silly homer Spur fans. Kareem is right, back in his days you played a lot less playoff games even if you went all the way.

[Kermit]

Without a doubt, fewer people remember and watched those shots, who they were against, and the details behind them...then Horry's.




Or because they happened 30 years ago.

[xtremesteven33]

kareems just mad cause hes muslim

[T Park]

Regardless, the Spurs should have hired this guy as an assistant when he was begging for work.

Man how good would Tiago get after learning from this guy huh?

[baseline bum]

Man how good would Tiago get after learning from this guy huh?

I thought Kareem was Josh Howard's coach?

[whottt]

silly homer Spur fans. Kareem is right, back in his days you played a lot less playoff games even if you went all the way.


Silly hater...Robert Horry has more championships than Kareem...so Kareem, like yourself, has kicked own ass.


Going all the way is not the domain of Kareem in this argument...it's the domain of Robert Horry in this argument.


Kareem also neglects to mention that he played 21 seasons whereas Horry now on his 15th or 16th...give Horry 21 seasons and he'll shatter Kareem's mark worse than his argument(and yours) have been shatterred in this thread...


For you see....Kareem, and your, argument woulde make sense if Kareem had more titles than Horry...however since he doesn't..........the point is moot.


Oh I suppose you could bring up the fact that Kareem lost several finals appearances while Horry really hasn't...but I really don't think your argument would be the stronger for it.


Conclusion...I suggest you stick to hating and stop attempting logic....it's too much for you.

[T Park]

I thought Kareem was Josh Howard's coach?

Well played sir, well played.

[whottt]

Or because they happened 30 years ago.


I see...and would you care to define greatness for me?


Thanks, in advance.

[GINNNNNNNNNNNNOBILI]

I'd be more impressed if Horry was going to break Wilt's record tonight... And i'm not talking about 100 points either

[MoSpur]

Those comments by Kareem are lame. Horry just doesn't get lucky.

[whottt]

When I first started playing, if you won the world championship you only played in three rounds of playoffs.


I'd be willing to bet that Horry's teams:

A. Made the playoffs more than Kareem's.
B. Made it out of the first round more than Kareem's.
C. Won more titles than Kareem's.


Conclusion:

Kareem's argument is shit...since he's doing it in 5 fewer seasons than Kareem did.

Honestly...I always considered Kareem to be one of the most intelligent players to ever step foot on the court...this argument has me completely reconsidering that opinion.

[Slomo]

...


See...I disagree with Kareem here...I don't think have a dozen or so memorable and clutch shots is a product of luck...


...

:tu

[SpurOutofTownFan]

Seriously. How necessary was his disclaimer that he only played in three rounds?

Dude, you played until you were 60.

Typical spoiled athlete these days. What ever happened to a handshake and pat on the back? Whatever happened to an "atta boy!"

I agree. His comment was pathetic.

[slowchild25]

False...he takes a big crap on Horry's clutchness...in fact he takes a big crap on what is arguably the greatest clutch shot in Laker history...he also takes a crap on Horry's career.

From Kareems blog "He seems to thrive on rare opportunities. Every time he gets it he does something great with it." That's not taking a big crap on Horry's clutchness or the shot, no where does he say Horry was lucky to make the shot if anything he only says that if Vlade does his job Horry never gets that opportunity.



I think getting drafted by or traded to, teams that then were able to aquire Oscar Robertson and Magic Johnson is...

So you crap on Kareem for having good teamates when Horry has probably never been better than the 4th option on every team he's been a part of? You bring up Oscar Robertson and Magic but Horry's had the benefit of playing with some of the best big men in NBA history Hakeem, Shaq and Duncan. Has he hit some big shots? Hell yea. But has he ever carried his team to an NBA championship? Robert Horry belongs in the same corner as the John Paxson and Steve Kerr's of the world.

[urunobili]

silly homer Spur fans. Kareem is right, back in his days you played a lot less playoff games even if you went all the way.

what you say makes Kareem look like a partial choker since winning it all would require less games and series... as whottt said... Horry is yet to lose a first round series and a finals appareance

[Sasha]

i get a feeling were gonna see a "Robert Horry Moment" tonight.....

From your lips to God's ears...

[alamo50]

You're forgetting Magic. Having met the guy, it's easy to see why he's had so much success off the court since retiring.

Nope, didn't forget about him at all.
I met him too and me too think he's a nice guy, but he didn't get HIV infected because he was filling all those hotelrooms with his class.

[Sasha]

kareems just mad cause hes muslim


OK, I don't get that.

[Bartleby]

no where does he say Horry was lucky to make the shot if anything he only says that if Vlade does his job Horry never gets that opportunity.

That's why I said it was a back-handed compliment. Why even mention Vlade's mistake if not to remind readers that Horry was simply lucky? Yes, Kareem, if Vlade hadn't screwed up Horry wouldn't have been in a position to make the big shot. Point being . . . ?

I see Kareem casting that particular achievement as a sort of Forest Gump moment. Obviously the remark is not a big deal and, to be fair, he is more generous in the comments that followed, but it seems sort of lame.

[whottt]

From Kareems blog "He seems to thrive on rare opportunities. Every time he gets it he does something great with it." That's not taking a big crap on Horry's clutchness or the shot, [quote]]no where does he say Horry was lucky to make the shot

From the OP:


the one that stands out for me came against the Kings in Game 4 of the 2002 Western Conference Finals because of how fortunate he was on that play.


From the American Heritage dictionary:



for·tu·nate (fôrch-nt)
adj.
2. Having unexpected good fortune; lucky. See Synonyms at happy.
n.



From the Collins Essential English Dictionary:

fortunate
Adjective

1. having good luck
2. occurring by good luck
fortunately adv




Now either you can admit you were lying, or you can admit you were ignorant of the definition of fortunate...but either way, a retraction on your part is on order.


And by the way...unless you are going to pay me for edcuating you...I am not going to argue with someone who is arguing because they don't know what an oft used word means...that's not my problem, that's your problem. I've got better things to do with my life than succeed where your teachers failed...













if anything he only says that if Vlade does his job Horry never gets that opportunity.


If anything he says it was luck...and he says is quite stupidly.


Because Vlade didn't do his job Horry made that shot?

Do you realize the mountainous level of stupidity behind that statement?


Do you realize that statement could be applied to nearly every shot in history? If someone had been doing their job, that should would not have been made.

That's an incredibly stupid statement...on his part, and yours.








So you crap on Kareem for having good teamates when Horry has probably never been better than the 4th option on every team he's been a part of? You bring up Oscar Robertson and Magic but Horry's had the benefit of playing with some of the best big men in NBA history Hakeem, Shaq and Duncan. Has he hit some big shots? Hell yea.

OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!


I can't believe you just pulled the shitty teamates card in favor of Kareem Adbul Fucking Jabbar...my god.

What's your next great? About the poor impoverished(let me know if you need this definition) USA?



Seriously...I realize watching basketball in May is a new experience for you...and your enthusiasm is cute even...but nontheless, as you become more knowledgable about the game, the statement you just made will become more and more embarrasing to you.














But has he ever carried his team to an NBA championship?

Did I claim he did?




Robert Horry belongs in the same corner as the John Paxson and Steve Kerr's of the world.


More abject stupidity on your part...

[ShoogarBear]

<p>
</p>
<p>More than likely Kareem's just feeling insecure due to the fact that he played on a couple of teams that missed the playoffs(the only teams he was inarguably the best player on).</p>
<p>whattt? Are you seriously trying to say that when Kareem was the best player on the team, he always missed the playoffs?</p>

[ManuTim_best of Fwiendz]

:lol

I think there is a little bit of Homerism in this thread. It's frickin' Kareem, who cares! it's up for interpretation. You guys jump at the opportunity to perceive slights. Although I agree Kareem, may not be the most "excited" about Horry surpassing him, he's human, I think maybe Kareem could be faulted for not writing a swimmingly, gushing piece about Horry, while still intending to give some awkward props.


Robert has been around because he understands how the game evolves over the 48 minutes. He knows how to do the right thing at the right time. He always seems to be at the right place at the right time to help his team win.


If he tries to control that rebound and smothers it, Robert Horry doesn’t get that chance. So I attribute that one to Vlade Divac not understanding what he needed to do.

I read that as Kareem not shitting on his career moment, since he picked that one as his favorite right? but pointing out the difference between the High IQ, alert players like Horry, v. Divac's blunder -anti-clutchness.

Also, don't know if you can read this as a slight, since it's pretty much what it is.

As far as the Hall of Fame goes, you have to look at the whole career. His career in the playoffs has been remarkable. You look at the regular season, you might come to a different conclusion, but you can’t take away his success.

His regular season stats suck, and that's what most people look at in hall of fame/career consideration. It's awkwardly phrased, but if you reversed it, it's pretty much what most Horry fans saying. His regular season doesn't speak justice on what Horry's success as an NBA player has been.

Anyway the last line was pretty much an unnecessary throwaway :lol

but Kareem is arguably one of the top 2 center/big men of all-time, why should he be insecure? And probably the best college player ever.
Maybe he's a little "threatened" by Horry overtaking him, but I don't think it's as much as some are implying. Longevity is pretty much something to be proud of since it's attributed to intelligence (and of course luck from avoiding career ending injuries)

Anyway, I usually like Kareem's writing/commentary, since he' seems like a sharp dude, but he's not known for being the most personable guy. So I give him a pass. At least he wrote some kind of 'nod' about it. He could have not wrote anything at all.

[Slydragon]

lol at everyone fighting over this, Robert is going to pass him so good for him, and if person A agrees with what Kareem said why does person B feel the need to change there mind. Let it be, did Kareem's words harm you or Robert physically? No. so lets move on

I got my eye on a championship, not a playoff streak.

[whottt]

Where Kareem makes an ass of himself and all who support him...

Is when he implies that his setting of that record is more important than Horry because he somehow cashed in more of chances in fewer opportunities...


Robert Horry is the guy who maxed his opportunities...so if that's the difference Kareem is stating in his favor...he's actually arguing that Horry's setting of that record is more relevant than his own...he's just too stupid to realize it.

Horry is the definition of got the max out of his opportunities.



His teams have won more championships than Karreem's.

His teams have made the playoffs at a 100% rate.

His teams have advanced at a 100% rate.

He's played fewer seasons.


End of argument...Kareem loses, and so do all who support him.

[whottt]

<p></p>
<p>whattt? Are you seriously trying to say that when Kareem was the best player on the team, he always missed the playoffs?</p>


I'm saying definitely missed the playoffs as the best player on his team...

Something that may or may not be true of Oscar...but definitely isn't true of Magic Johnson.


I'm also saying that I don't necessarily think he was the best player on any of his championship teams.


Magic certainly did better with the Lakers without Kareem than Kareem did with them without Magic.

[boutons_]

Kareem basically disrespecting Robert at the moment of Robert breaking Kareem's record. Fuck you, Kareem.

"how fortunate he was on that play"

Robert didn't demand the ball, and he made the shot.

"passing my mark for the most games played in the playoffs. But ..." but but but.

Yes, they are facts, but quoting them, by Kareem, at this point, is churlish and unfair.

Kareem made his record his era (career of 20 years).

Robert made his record in his era (career of 14 years, so far)
(while surpassing all other players in Robert's era).

Shame on you, Kareem. You try, but can't take anything away from Robert.

[slowchild25]

Now either you can admit you were lying, or you can admit you were ignorant of the definition of fortunate...but either way, a retraction on your part is on order.

No a retraction is not in order because if you read it he says he is forunate to have the OPPORTUNITY TO SHOOT THE BALL. It was Kareems clumsy way of trying to say Horry is always in the right place at the right time and capitalizes on those opportunities not "Robert Horry is fucking Lucky". Maybe instead of posting the definitions of words you can brush up on your reading comprehension.






I can't believe you just pulled the shitty teamates card in favor of Kareem Adbul Fucking Jabbar...my god.

What's your next great? About the poor impoverished(let me know if you need this definition) USA?

No I didn't pull out the shitty teamates card in favor of Kareem I was pointing out that you have been saying that Kareem got to where he was because of his teamates but for some reason choose to ignore the fact that Horry played with 3 of the top BIG MEN IN HIS FUCKING ERA!!! Again it's all about reading comprehension here.

[whottt]

lol at everyone fighting over this, Robert is going to pass him so good for him, and if person A agrees with what Kareem said why does person B feel the need to change there mind. Let it be, did Kareem's words harm you or Robert physically? No. so lets move on

I got my eye on a championship, not a playoff streak.



Then I suggest you take your ass to a thread discussing eyes on championships and not playoff streaks...and let people intested in discussing playoffs streaks discuss them in threads about playoff streaks.

Thanks...don't let the doorknob hitya on the way out.

You lead..we will follow...trust me...we'll be right behind you. No need to look back.

[1Parker1]

Seriously. How necessary was his disclaimer that he only played in three rounds?

Dude, you played until you were 60.

Typical spoiled athlete these days. What ever happened to a handshake and pat on the back? Whatever happened to an "atta boy!"

:lol

[SRJ]

It it a HOF career?


Sure...

Hall of Fame

He's definitely famous...

First of all, the idea behind the HOF is that the Hall would bestow fame upon those inducted, not that famous players would be inducted. Or does Penny Hardaway belong in the Hall?

Second of all, let's stop this whole "Horry's teams" phrasing right now. In Houston, they were Hakeem's teams. In LA, they were Shaq's teams. In SA, they are Duncan's teams.

Horry is a unique player who has benefitted from, and contributed to, a lot of great teams. That's worth a footnote and nothing more. I'm glad he's played here, but there are scores of players throughout history with more value. If you've got a championship caliber team, his value increases - which means Horry has had the good sense to follow around some of the all-time greats. It helps them and it helps him.

[whottt]

No a retraction is not in order because if you read it he says he is forunate to have the OPPORTUNITY TO SHOOT THE BALL. It was Kareems clumsy way of trying to say Horry is always in the right place at the right time and capitalizes on those opportunities not "Robert Horry is fucking Lucky". Maybe instead of posting the definitions of words you can brush up on your reading comprehension.

No douche...it was Kareem's way of saying that was a lucky shot...you are the one with the faulty reading comprehension.




No I didn't pull out the shitty teamates card in favor of Kareem I was pointing out that you have been saying that Kareem got to where he was because of his teamates but for some reason choose to ignore the fact that Horry played with 3 of the top BIG MEN IN HIS FUCKING ERA!!! Again it's all about reading comprehension here.


No...it's about the fact that you don't what fucking fortunate means or are too stupid to understand that he was attributing that shot to Vlade's error and not Horry's clutchness.

He was doing it...you're wrong...I'm right.

One more time:


because of how fortunate he was on that play

It would be just as accurate if he said this:



because of how lucky he was on that play


You know why he said fortunate instead of lucky? Because he knew the stupid people wouldn't get it...and there are more of them.


He called it a lucky shot...he attributed it to an error on the part of Divac. Missing the forest for the trees...how Horry got the ball is not important, lots of guys have gotten the ball in similar situations...few knock the shot down as well as Horry...that's the fucking point. And that's why he's Robert Horry...and you're not.

[slowchild25]

First of all, the idea behind the HOF is that the Hall would bestow fame upon those inducted, not that famous players would be inducted. Or does Penny Hardaway belong in the Hall?

Second of all, let's stop this whole "Horry's teams" phrasing right now. In Houston, they were Hakeem's teams. In LA, they were Shaq's teams. In SA, they are Duncan's teams.

Horry is a unique player who has benefitted from, and contributed to, a lot of great teams. That's worth a footnote and nothing more. I'm glad he's played here, but there are scores of players throughout history with more value. If you've got a championship caliber team, his value increases - which means Horry has had the good sense to follow around some of the all-time greats. It helps them and it helps him.

What he said.

[slowchild25]

He called it a lucky shot...he attributed it to an error on the part of Divac. Missing the forest for the trees...how Horry got the ball is not important, lots of guys have gotten the ball in similar situations...few knock the shot down as well as Horry...

He called the events leading up to the shot luck/fortunate not Horry knocking down the shot. He wasn't trying to diminish what Horry did. Like I said earlier, he was trying to point out that Horry has been in the right place at the right time in his career and has maximized those chances when he gets them. We are pretty much saying the same thing in that regard! I AGREE WITH YOU on that point. I'm just saying that doesn't necessarily make Horry HOF worthy or the fact that Horry has more rings some how makes him more important than the likes of Kareem and MJ.

[Slydragon]

Then I suggest you take your ass to a thread discussing eyes on championships and not playoff streaks...and let people intested in discussing playoffs streaks discuss them in threads about playoff streaks.

Thanks...don't let the doorknob hitya on the way out.

You lead..we will follow...trust me...we'll be right behind you. No need to look back.

you are just super piss that not everyone shares what you think. Is it hard to believe that no matter what you say, the supports are not gonna change there mind because you made some points on the subject.

[slayermin]

When I think of Robert Horry, I remember him hitting big shots.

But also I remember him in '05 stealing that ball against the Nuggets in game three, then hitting the three to pretty much seal the win.

Then he does the exact same thing to them again in '07.

Of course, against Detroit, he hits the game winner in game five of the '05 Finals. But it's all the other things he did in the 4th Qtr and overtime which is blazed in my memory.

I will always remember game two of the '07 Finals when he had five block shots.

And that great block he had against Shaq in the 1st Round of the playoffs.

He isn't a one dimensional player like Steve Kerr or John Paxon. He has altered games, careers, and championships, not only with his big shots, but also his knack for doing the little things his team needs at the right time. Something I think even TD has learned from him.

[whottt]

First of all, the idea behind the HOF is that the Hall would bestow fame upon those inducted,

Absolutely
100%
wrong.

That is not the stated purpose of the HOF...you may wish it was...but it simply isn't. And frankly...the lack of an intellectual spark in your argument has become a huge source of annoyance to me...


From the website of the HOF, their mission statement:

To honor and celebrate basketball's greatest moments and people


See...what you want, is the HO of met statistical benchmarks.

The HO boredshitless

The HO no one gives a shit because people don't go to games to see PPG averages.

And furthermore:



Guidelines For Nomination and Election Into the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame
ELIGIBILITY
Candidates must meet the following requirements in order to be eligible for Enshrinement into the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame (hereafter BHOF):

Player: A player must be fully retired for five years before being eligible for Enshrinement. He/she may then be considered for Enshrinement in the sixth year of retirement. Should a player come out of retirement for a short period of time, as defined by the BHOF, his/her case and eligibility for Enshrinement shall be reviewed on an individual basis.

Coach: A coach must be either fully retired for five years or, if still an active coach, have coached as either a fulltime assistant or head coach on the high school and/or college and/or professional level for a minimum of 25 years. That person will then be considered for Enshrinement in the sixth year of retirement or 26th year of active coaching.

Referee: A referee must be fully retired for five years or, if still an active referee, have been an active referee for a minimum of 25 years. That person will then be considered for Enshrinement in the sixth year of retirement or 26th year of refereeing.

Contributor: A person is eligible for Enshrinement as a contributor at any time for significant contributions to the game of basketball. What constitutes a "significant contribution" shall be determined by the BHOF, its Screening Committee(s) or Honors Committee(s).

NOMINATION PROCESS
A Nomination Packet consists of a completed nomination form procured from the BHOF, and news clippings, magazine articles or other informative, factual data about the candidate. This material shall be submitted to the president and CEO of the BHOF by October 31. All nominees with completed nomination materials are presented to the appropriate Screening Committee for review.

This material shall be submitted to the President and CEO of the BHOF during the period beginning October 1 and ending Dec 2. All nominees with completed nomination materials are presented to the appropriate Screening Committee for review.

SCREENING COMMITTEES
There are four Screening Committees: 1. North American; 2. Women; 3. Veterans (an individual whose career ended 35 years before his/her current consideration); and 4. International. These Committees will review and recommend individuals to be reviewed for Enshrinement by the Honors Committee. The North American Committee consists of nine members. The Women's, International, and Veteran's Screening Committees are each composed of seven members. To advance to the Honors Committee, an individual requires a minimum number of affirmative votes from the applicable Screening Committee (North American: at least 7 of 9; all others at least 5 of 7). If an individual does not receive a single affirmative vote for three consecutive years (0-27 or 0-21) that person's candidacy is suspended for five years after which time he/she may again start the process of being reviewed by a Screening Committee. There is no limitation on the number of years a person can be considered for Enshrinement by a Screening Committee unless that person does not receive a single vote for three consecutive years. Screening Committees may put forth a maximum number of finalists to the Honors Committee as follows: North American 10; all others 2.

RESPONSIBILITY OF THE BOARD OF TRUSTEES
After the vote of the Screening Committees, those candidates who are recommended to be put forth to the Honors Committee will first be reviewed by the BHOF Board of Trustees. At this time, should it be determined by the Board of Trustees that an individual has damaged the integrity of the game of basketball, he or she shall be deemed not worthy of Enshrinement and removed from consideration.

HONORS COMMITTEE
The purpose of the Honors Committee is to review carefully a candidate's basketball record before casting a vote in favor of Enshrining the person into the BHOF. There are 24 people on each of the four Honors Committees. They include Hall of Famers, basketball executives, media members and other contributors to the game. A core group of 12 people sit on all four committees. Twelve specialists are then added to the International Committee while 12 others are added to the Women's Committee. Twelve other specialists review both the Veterans Committee and the North American Committee. These specialists have an intimate understanding of the specific category of play considered by their committee. A person needs a minimum of 18 votes from an Honors Committee to be Enshrined into the BHOF.

If the Honors Committee has not elected a candidate for five consecutive years, the person's candidacy will be suspended for five years and will not be considered during this time. Following this five-year period, the candidate will be eligible to be reconsidered by the appropriate Screening Committee.

For additional information about the election process or to receive a nomination form, please contact the Basketball Hall of Fame at (413) 781-6500 or make a formal nomination form request via fax at 413-781-1939.


Do you see any sort of statistical requirements for eligibility? For induction? Any sort of trophy quota?


What do you see...players and moments...and while you may have a shred of an argument on whether or not Horry is a memorable player(and he is), you aint got a fucking leg to stand on when it comes to Horry and the "moments" criteria...for you see, Horry may have no peer when it comes to moments.


Because that's what he does is moments...and that's what people go to the games for...that's what they remember.


No one sits in front of a hoop as a kid and dreams of averaging 20ppg and 10rpg...they dream of hitting the shot...and that's what Horry does you see.


They dream of winning championships...and that too, is what Horry does you see.


In fact...even the HOFers dream of winning championships...like Robert Horry does.
















not that famous players would be inducted. Or does Penny Hardaway belong in the Hall?


Who is Penny Hardaway? You have an odd definition of fame...tell me one memorable thing he is famous for on the basketball court.



However I assure you...fame matters, it's the #1 aid to getting into the Hall.







Second of all, let's stop this whole "Horry's teams" phrasing right now. In Houston, they were Hakeem's teams. In LA, they were Shaq's teams. In SA, they are Duncan's teams.

Horry's teams.
Horry's teams.
Horry's teams.
Horry's teams.
Horry's teams.


If he played for them...they were his team...perhaps you should figure out the English Language before attempting HOF arguments? Just a thought.


As for me...I don't claim being economic with words to be any sort of great importance to me...however, I reserve the right to do so at times, at my leisure, not yours, and this is one of those times.





Horry is a unique player who has benefitted from, and contributed to, a lot of great teams. That's worth a footnote and nothing more.


Absolutely fucking not...the goal of a player, excuse me, the team, the primoridial goal, is to win a championship...not meet statistical benchmarks.

And it's a team game...every player that has ever won a championship had help doing it.


That is the most assinin backasswards argument I have ever read.





I'm glad he's played here, but there are scores of players throughout history with more value.

More? Like who?

Is this the part where you name some guys that didn't win championships?

Can you say for certain that any of Horry's teams would have won a championship in those years without him? No you can't...




And I've seen Horry bail many a superstar's puckering ass out of the fire in the defining moments of championship runs...


Who do you think is hated more in Sacremento, Shaq and Kobe, or Horry?









If you've got a championship caliber team, his value increases

And that's true of every player in history...




- which means Horry has had the good sense to follow around some of the all-time greats. It helps them and it helps him.


You show me the year one guy won a championship, and I will concede you have a non-stupid argument...but that guy doesn't exist, and neither does any sort of validity to your argument.


You need a different Hall...one where you can make up the rules to suit you...and stop trying to do it to the actual Hall.

[whottt]

What he said.

What a surprise...a person who makes up the rules of the English Language to suit him is a fan of a guy who makes HOF rules to suit him...


Big
Fucking
Suprise

[whottt]

you are just super piss that not everyone shares what you think. Is it hard to believe that no matter what you say, the supports are not gonna change there mind because you made some points on the subject.



No...I am pissed because this is a thread about Kareem's comments on Horry and playoff streaks and you are in it bitching about people discussing the topic in it, and asking them to stop...


You are a pretentious ass...go police another thread please.

[slowchild25]

What a surprise...a person who makes up the rules of the English Language to suit him is a fan of a guy who makes HOF rules to suit him...


Big
Fucking
Suprise

Ok your right a guy that was never even the 4th best player on any NBA team he's ever played on should be in the HOF. :flag:

[whottt]

He called the events leading up to the shot luck/fortunate not Horry knocking down the shot.

He's still calling it a lucky shot.




He wasn't trying to diminish what Horry did.

Yes he is you idiot...he is saying it happened because Vlade fucked up...that's exactly what he is saying. He is saying it would not have
happened in Vlade hadn't fucked up. IOW, he's calling it a lucky shot.

And why's stupid, is because most great shots are the result of someone fucking up...in some way.





Like I said earlier, he was trying to point out that Horry has been in the right place at the right time in his career and has maximized those chances when he gets them. We are pretty much saying the same thing in that regard! I AGREE WITH YOU on that point. I'm just saying that doesn't necessarily make Horry HOF worthy or the fact that Horry has more rings some how makes him more important than the likes of Kareem and MJ.


You show me the line on the HOF induction guidelines, their mission statment, anywhere...that dictates that a guy had to be

A. the best plyer on his team.
B. a scorer who scored x points.
C. Won x trophies.
D. Rebound, blocks, blah blah blah.

Or whatever...



You know who scores the most points? The guys who take the most fucking shots...that's all it is. BFD.


Stupidly enough...if scoring is your criteria, in actuality the greatest scorer in NBA history was Artis Gilmore...and he's not even in the Hall.

[whottt]

Ok your right a guy that was never even the 4th best player on any NBA team he's ever played on should be in the HOF. :flag:


I just posted the induction guidelines...you show me where it says a player had to be X ranked player on his team to make the Hall?


It doesn't...



So tell me...you got one shot for a championship...


Who you want taking it?


Robert Horry? or Chris Webber?

or hell, even Kevin Garnett?

[whottt]

Robert Horry is an NBA legend...


IF a guy that has a 7ppg scoring average, no MVP's, All Stars, All NBA Teams, is having his HOF worthiness discussed, and frequently I might add...by fans, and other HOF'ers even...all over the NBA and the media...


Then there's absolutely no doubt he should be in.



There are half dozen fan bases in the NBA whose blood runs fucking ice cold when they see Horry with the ball as the clock is expiring, or that consider him to have ruined their only chance their NBA dream...and when he spots up for that shot, what they feel, is complete and total fear, fear reserved for only the absolute greatest players in this games history...and Robert Horry is every bit their measure...in that primal moment his nature as player is revealed...he is fearless, he is the slayer, and the rest...well they aren't, mostly...and that's also why he belongs in the HOF.


And you don't realize it yet...because he has done it to your team yet...

[slowchild25]

I just posted the induction guidelines...you show me where it says a player had to be X ranked player on his team to make the Hall?


It doesn't, I'm just going off of what most voters have done in the past. Is Dennis Johnson in the HOF? Michael Cooper? Byron Scott? Sean Elliott? All good players who contributed to multiple championship teams but not HOFers. By your reasoning anyone that has contributed to multiple rings should get in.

[SRJ]

To honor and celebrate basketball's greatest moments and people

Horry is not one of those. He is a valuable role player.


The HO no one gives a shit because people don't go to games to see PPG averages.

Yeah, Robert Horry packs arenas and no one gave a shit about Charles Barkley.

I also like how you posted the entire eligibility process as though it relates to your position or Horry's qualifications. That's hilarious. Your quote:


What do you see...players and moments...

is absolutely irrelevant to the HOF guidelines you copied-and-pasted. Oh I guess you may be right in that the HOF inducts players, but that's the sprinkling of correct you've mixed into the huge bowl of wrong you've argued here.

There are no "moments" criteria.

Here, let me use the whottt technique:

There are no "moments" criteria.
There are no "moments" criteria.
There are no "moments" criteria.
There are no "moments" criteria.
There are no "moments" criteria.


No one sits in front of a hoop as a kid and dreams of averaging 20ppg and 10rpg...they dream of hitting the shot...and that's what Horry does you see

Oh...the "aspirations of children" criterion. There's something voters should consider. I guess if Robert Horry owns a pony that'll get him in on the first ballot.


In fact...even the HOFers dream of winning championships...like Robert Horry does.

Lucky for Horry he gets to play with real HOFers to help them out.

Tell you what - let's imagine that you and Mike D'Antoni are the owner/GM/head coach of an NBA franchise - one franchise for each of you. The best player on your franchise will be Robert Horry and the best player on Mike D'Antoni's franchise will be Patrick Ewing. Despite the fact that your franchise has the advantage of whott's brains versus D'Antoni's, despite the fact that your franchise has the advantage of Horry's clutchness versus Ewing's chokiness, your team will win 30 games a year at their best. D'Antoni's team will average 48-50 wins a year and get into the second round of the playoffs a few times.


If he played them...they were his team...perhaps you should figure out the English Language before attempting HOF arguments? Just a thought.

You know, if anyone else climbs into the literal closet, you'd be the first to call them out. Now you're pinning your argument to a literal definition? It's unworthy of you.


Can you say for certain that any of Horry's teams would have won a championship in those years without him?

Yes, I can say that for certain. Or did Tim Duncan not lead his team to championships in 1999 and 2003? Going through whottt's HOFer Robert Horry twice in the process to do it?

[slowchild25]

And you don't realize it yet...because he has done it to your team yet...

Actually no he has done it FOR my team and against my team. I'm going to let you in on a little secret that will probably make you dislike me even more, I'm an NBA whore. Before we got the Hornets I was a Shaq fan, mainly because he went to LSU. I followed the Magic when he was there, I followed the Lakers when he was there and then we (Louisiana) got the Hornets and I started pulling for them. I also watched ALOT of Houston Rockets games when Horry was there being as though I lived 2 hours from Houston at the time and they where always on TV. I've seen what the man can do, I appreciate his game but I just don't feel it belong up there with the "legends" that you talk about.

[whottt]

Just remember...the stats came after the game, after the moments. They are secondary, not primary...and that's why the argument you pose is backwards. The players, the moments...the game, the championships, they come first...

[whottt]

It doesn't, I'm just going off of what most voters have done in the past. Is Dennis Johnson in the HOF? Michael Cooper? Byron Scott? Sean Elliott? All good players who contributed to multiple championship teams but not HOFers. By your reasoning anyone that has contributed to multiple rings should get in.


And by your reasoning you should get off the computer immediately...


Because 20 years ago, most people didn't use computers. Hell they probably still don't...and since most people don't use computers, no one should use computers.


That is your logic............................................. ...........

If not for someone realizing, computers...they can do shit...you wouldn't be here now...yet someone did...did you tell me them they were stupid and shouldn't use computers because most people don't use computers? If you didn't...why are you doing it now?

[slowchild25]

And by your reasoning you should get off the computer immediately...


Because 20 years ago, most people didn't use computers. Hell they probably still don't...and since most people don't use computers, no one should use computers.


No my logic is as soon as the voters start letting the above mentioned guys in then Horry can walk in right after them.

[baseline bum]

Nope, didn't forget about him at all.
I met him too and me too think he's a nice guy, but he didn't get HIV infected because he was filling all those hotelrooms with his class.

Getting pussy is classless?

[whottt]

No my logic is as soon as the voters start letting the above mentioned guys in then Horry can walk in right after them.



I see...and how many guys with 7 championships aren't in the Hall?


How many guys that have been the all time leader in playoff games played, aren't in the Hall?


The mission statement doesn't say the guys with the best stats...it says players and moments...and there is no comparison, because there's never been another player like Robert Horry in NBA history, he is completely unique...and that's another reason he belongs in the Hall.



Don't smash the computer just because you don't understand what it is and haven't seen one before...who knows, you might end up liking it...once you understand it.

[slowchild25]

Don't smash the computer just because you don't understand what it is and haven't seen one before...who knows, you might end up liking it...once you understand it.

I've already said it before I respect and like Horry's game. I just don't think he belongs in the HOF. Players that dominated the sport for long periods of time are the ones that should go in there.

Is Sam Cassell a better point guard than John Stockton because he won more championship rings and stepped up and hit some big shots in the finals for the Rockets?

[whottt]

Actually no he has done it FOR my team and against my team. I'm going to let you in on a little secret that will probably make you dislike me even more, I'm an NBA whore. Before we got the Hornets I was a Shaq fan, mainly because he went to LSU. I followed the Magic when he was there, I followed the Lakers when he was there and then we (Louisiana) got the Hornets and I started pulling for them. I also watched ALOT of Houston Rockets games when Horry was there being as though I lived 2 hours from Houston at the time and they where always on TV. I've seen what the man can do, I appreciate his game but I just don't feel it belong up there with the "legends" that you talk about.



Pistol Pete shouldn't be in the HOF...

You know why? Because when he was the best player on an NBA team...it sucked ass.

How many times was he even 6th best player on an NBA champion?

Didley squat.


cue double standard in

5
4
3
2
1.........

[slowchild25]

Pistol Pete shouldn't be in the HOF...

You know why? Because when he was the best player on an NBA team...it sucked ass.

How many times was he even 6th best player on an NBA champion?

Didley squat.




Alright you win lets get the Hall of Fame Plaques for Danny Ainge, Gerald Henderson and Kurt Rambis ready.

Seriously lets just move on. You feel that Horry is a hall of famer, I don't. You and I own probably 50% of the posts in this thread and it's pointless, neither of us is going to change our minds.

[whottt]

Horry is not one of those. He is a valuable role player.


And I'd say that's what Karrem was on his last 5 championships...




Yeah, Robert Horry packs arenas and no one gave a shit about Charles Barkley.


Do you have proof Robert Horry isn't a ratings draw?


What I know?

Robert Horry was replaced with Charles Barkley once...it was a bad trade.





I also like how you posted the entire eligibility process as though it relates to your position or Horry's qualifications. That's hilarious. Your quote:



is absolutely irrelevant to the HOF guidelines you copied-and-pasted. Oh I guess you may be right in that the HOF inducts players, but that's the sprinkling of correct you've mixed into the huge bowl of wrong you've argued here.

There are no "moments" criteria.

Here, let me use the whottt technique:

There are no "moments" criteria.
There are no "moments" criteria.
There are no "moments" criteria.
There are no "moments" criteria.
There are no "moments" criteria.


No...the mission statement comes first, which is why I posted it first...and there is a moments criteria...it's that it has to be a moment.





Oh...the "aspirations of children" criterion. There's something voters should consider. I guess if Robert Horry owns a pony that'll get him in on the first ballot.

It's better than a heartless PPG average...



Seriously...I better never see you critical of a shotchucker shooting his team out of a game...becuase people with the mindset you have?

You are the reason shot chuckers chuck...

You are the reason players fight and worry about who gets the most credit...


I'll be keeping an eye out for your double standard...better not say an unkind word about AI...or you will be owned.






Lucky for Horry he gets to play with real HOFers to help them out.

Lucky for HOF'ers he gets to play with them, or they wouldn't have as many championships..


But what do you care...in your world players should be playing for MVP's, credit, and who is getting the most shots...it's what's important to you, it's wh at you care about.






Tell you what - let's imagine that you and Mike D'Antoni are the owner/GM/head coach of an NBA franchise - one franchise for each of you. The best player on your franchise will be Robert Horry and the best player on Mike D'Antoni's franchise will be Patrick Ewing. Despite the fact that your franchise has the advantage of whott's brains versus D'Antoni's, despite the fact that your franchise has the advantage of Horry's clutchness versus Ewing's chokiness, your team will win 30 games a year at their best. D'Antoni's team will average 48-50 wins a year and get into the second round of the playoffs a few times.


And you know what? A team built around Robert Horry will produce at least as many championships as one built around Patrick Ewing...


Fact.

Is mediocrity your point?


I think it is...I think in fact you are saying a mediocre superstar is better than a HOF role player...and you are sickeningly wrong on that.

So it really doesn't matter...what can be proven is that a team on which Robert Horry plays a supporting role can and did win a championship, and one on which Ewing does...didn't.






You know, if anyone else climbs into the literal closet, you'd be the first to call them out. Now you're pinning your argument to a literal definition? It's unworthy of you.



Becuase in this case I was saying Horry's team because of the literal definition...or whatever the hell.





Yes, I can say that for certain. Or did Tim Duncan not lead his team to championships in 1999 and 2003?

I didn't ask you for proof that teams that won championships without Horry could have done so...I asked you for proof teams that did win championships with him could have done so without him...

And that you cannot prove.


Incidentally...Duncan was pretty injured in 05...he didn't carrry that team all year lond.





Going through whottt's HOFer Robert Horry twice in the process to do it?[/QUOTE]


Ironically enough...at least one of those championships swung on an Horry missed shot...


Ironically enough...if the Lakers had kept Horry they probably win the 04 Title...because Horry doesn't get hurt during the Finals...

Ironically enough...Horry has twice been replaced by HOFer team carrying typles...like Karl Malone, and Charles Barkley, and the end result of his replacement has been...they were worst teams for it and didn't win championships.


Team carriers indeed...HOFers indeed....role players...indeed.





May you own a factory without workers...then maybe you'll get it.

[alamo50]

Getting pussy is classless?

No, that's priceless.
Fucking around behind your wife's back, that's classless.

[whottt]

Alright you win lets get the Hall of Fame Plaques for Danny Ainge, Gerald Henderson and Kurt Rambis ready.


Do they have 7 rings?

Are they the all time leader in playoff games?

Did they never miss the post season? The second round?

All time finals leaders in 3 pointers?

Single game finals record for steals?

Do they have a literal assload of clutch championship swining moments?

Uh no...no they don't.




You lack of an inability to discern the differences between Robert Horry and Danny Ainge is not an insight...it's not a positive, it's a negative.


Does Danny Ainge throw a towel in Robert Horry's face?


Nay...he does not...Robert Horry throws a towel in Danny Ainge's face...and yes, that's a huge part of the reason he now has 7 rings.






Seriously lets just move on.

I don't want to move on...I want to argue.


You feel that Horry is a hall of famer, I don't.

Yes...and your opinion is a wrong one and mine is not...


It's not a case of two equal yet differing opinions...


It's a case of one person saying it's not stupid to jump in front of a semitruck(this would be you)...


And one person saying it is(this would be me)...






You and I own probably 50% of the posts in this thread and it's pointless,

Um...a forum wouldn't be much of a forum without posts...it's kind of the entire purpose of them...as are these types of discussions.

Game before stats...game before stats, know it, learn it, live it.



neither of us is going to change our minds.


You mind will change...in fact it already has, you just don't know it yet...but you will, the next time you are arguing with a stupid newbie who doesn't get the contributions non-hyped up Superstars make to teams...you'll get some of it then, even if not all. And hopefully...by the time the guy has done it multiple times for your team, you'll get all of it.

[ClingingMars]

It hurt to read that. I always liked Kareem, and while technically you can't really call that an insult...ugh. It just has that feeling.

- Mars

[slowchild25]

Does Danny Ainge throw a towel in Robert Horry's face?


Nay...he does not...Robert Horry throws a towel in Danny Ainge's face...and yes, that's a huge part of the reason he now has 7 rings.



Your right that is a huge part of the reason he now has 7 rings. If he doesn't act like a douche he doesn't get traded to the Lakers and ride Shaq and Kobe's coattails.





Um...a forum wouldn't be much of a forum without posts...it's kind of the entire purpose of them...as are these types of discussions.

True but when it's just the same two people saying the same things over and over it's just pointless and lame.


Game before stats...game before stats, know it, learn it, live it.

You mind will change...in fact it already has, you just don't know it yet...but you will, the next time you are arguing with a stupid newbie who doesn't get the contributions non-hyped up Superstars make to teams...you'll get some of it then, even if not all. And hopefully...by the time the guy has done it multiple times for your team, you'll get all of it.

I've already said it multiple time, I like Horry's game I get his contributions. Does any body game plan to stop Horry?

"If I hit it we win, if I miss y'all are going to blame the stars for losing the game anyway," Horry told the Washington Post's Michael Wilbon. "There's no pressure on me."

Horry's never had the pressure to carry a team and be the man. He just picks his spots and contributes. Role players are important to have on every team but it is not what gets you into the Hall of Fame even if you are a very very good role player.

[GSH]

Regardless, the Spurs should have hired this guy as an assistant when he was begging for work.


We didn't need him. The toilets in the practice facility are already clean enough.

[ecksodia]

Generalizing former lakers as classless..?

Indeed the comments come off as being bitter. I'm not one to speculate, but...

[Pero]

So I attribute that one to Vlade Divac not understanding what he needed to do.

That's funny, I attribute that one to the ref screw up at half-time.

[whottt]

Your right that is a huge part of the reason he now has 7 rings. If he doesn't act like a douche he doesn't get traded to the Lakers and ride Shaq and Kobe's coattails.


That's exactly right....


It's called intelligence...and it's a huge reason why he has 7 rings...on the court, and in the offseason.


And BTW, how many championships did Shaq and Kobe win without Horry...you know, when they replaced him with that Malone guy?






True but when it's just the same two people saying the same things over and over it's just pointless and lame.

I'm not saying the same things over and over again...you are.




I've already said it multiple time, I like Horry's game I get his contributions.

That's not good enough!





Does any body game plan to stop Horry?

At the 3 point line? I guranfuckingtee you they do.





"If I hit it we win, if I miss y'all are going to blame the stars for losing the game anyway," Horry told the Washington Post's Michael Wilbon. "There's no pressure on me."

Horry's never had the pressure to carry a team and be the man.

Bullshit...he's had the pressure to hit shots.


There are guys in the HOF that couldn't carry teams worth a shit....Horry is no different than they are, except for the fact that he scored fewer points and one a hell of a lot more rings.

And he's always had defensive expectations.








He just picks his spots and contributes.

Which is frequently when his Superstars are losing their nerve...



Role players are important to have on every team but it is not what gets you into the Hall of Fame even if you are a very very good role player.

Link?

I want you to show me the line where it says role players can't and don't belong in the hall...


Role player is a fun word anyway...


John Stockton? He was a role player...he passed...he's not in the HOF for his scoring and rebounding.

Michael Jordan? He was a role player...he scored, he's not in the HOF for his rebounding and passing.





What's your next great take...Pitchers shouldn't be in the MLB HOF because they don't hit? All they do is that one thing...pitch...that's role playing.



Stupid argument...

[SRJ]

And I'd say that's what Karrem was on his last 5 championships...

The same Kareem that won the Finals MVP award in 1985?


Do you have proof Robert Horry isn't a ratings draw?

It's hard to prove because he's always playing with players fans want to see.


Robert Horry was replaced with Charles Barkley once...it was a bad trade.

Yep...the Suns sure won lots of rings after that trade.


No...the mission statement comes first, which is why I posted it first...and there is a moments criteria...it's that it has to be a moment.

So everyone who had a moment belongs? Great! You've just put in a slew of players who don't belong, not just Robert Horry. Gerald Henderson, Rex Chapman, Avery Johnson, Steve Kerr, Garfield Heard, come on down! You're in the HOF!

Another note on "the desires of children": Larry Bird said that when he was a kid playing with his cousin, they'd take turns being Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain. Magic Johnson said that down at his playground, everyone wanted to be Earl The Pearl. I wonder why? Could it be because Pearl, Russell, and Chamberlain were real HOFers and kids identify with them, not role players?


Seriously...I better never see you critical of a shotchucker shooting his team out of a game...becuase people with the mindset you have?

You are the reason shot chuckers chuck...

You are the reason players fight and worry about who gets the most credit...


I'll be keeping an eye out for your double standard...better not say an unkind word about AI...or you will be owned.

As usual, whottt makes up stuff people don't say. But about Allen Iverson - do you think Robert Horry could have pushed that 2001 76er team into the NBA Finals? I don't.


But what do you care...in your world players should be playing for MVP's, credit, and who is getting the most shots...it's what's important to you, it's wh at you care about.

What's most important to me, in HOF discussions, is which players have the most to do with winning. Real HOFers tend to produce a lot of statistics because they are relied upon. They don't get FGAs because the feel like it (on the whole - some do chuck excessively, and I don't care for it) - they get FGAs because they give their teams the best chance to score. Robert Horry is the exemplar of what we call a role player - not good enough to carry a team, but he does his job better than anyone else did that particular job.

I would have no problem with Robert Horry being inducted into a "Role Player's Wing" of the HOF.


Ironically enough...Horry has twice been replaced by HOFer team carrying typles...like Karl Malone, and Charles Barkley, and the end result of his replacement has been...they were worst teams for it and didn't win championships.

Hmmmm...

In Phoenix, Barkley made a trip to the NBA Finals in four seasons. Horry didn't last a season there. Phoenix certainly hasn't been back to the Finals since Barkley left.

As for Malone...

2003 LA Lakers 50-32, lost in second round to San Antonio
2004 LA Lakers 56-26, lost in NBA Finals to Detroit

The Lakers had Horry in 2003 and lost to San Antonio. The Lakers had Malone in 2004 and beat San Antonio - who had Robert Horry.

[whottt]

Go ahead...run away, give up...embrace your inner Maravich.

[whottt]

The same Kareem that won the Finals MVP award in 1985?

I don't know...is this the same Finals MVP that Tony Parker and Chauncey Billups have one of and LeBron, Kobe and Garnett have none of?


You tell me.




It's hard to prove because he's always playing with players fans want to see.

That's because A. Those guys want him on their teams and B. He wants to be on those teams.





Yep...the Suns sure won lots of rings after that trade.

They won as many as the Rockets...and less than the Lakers.




So everyone who had a moment belongs? Great! You've just put in a slew of players who don't belong, not just Robert Horry. Gerald Henderson, Rex Chapman, Avery Johnson, Steve Kerr, Garfield Heard, come on down! You're in the HOF!

I see...and how many of those players have as many as Horry does?





Another note on "the desires of children": Larry Bird said that when he was a kid playing with his cousin, they'd take turns being Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain. Magic Johnson said that down at his playground, everyone wanted to be Earl The Pearl. I wonder why? Could it be because Pearl, Russell, and Chamberlain were real HOFers and kids identify with them, not role players?


Is it Horry's fault he was born too late to be idolized by Bird and Magic?




As usual, whottt makes up stuff people don't say. But about Allen Iverson - do you think Robert Horry could have pushed that 2001 76er team into the NBA Finals? I don't.

So why doesn't' AI do it every year?

And I think Robert Horry could have bailed Shaq and Kobe's ass out in that series in one particularly memorable game...in fact I think he did so.




What's most important to me, in HOF discussions, is which players have the most to do with winning. Real HOFers tend to produce a lot of statistics because they are relied upon.

Any one can produce statistics if they are the one with the ball.




They don't get FGAs because the feel like it (on the whole - some do chuck excessively, and I don't care for it) - they get FGAs because they give their teams the best chance to score. Robert Horry is the exemplar of what we call a role player - not good enough to carry a team, but he does his job better than anyone else did that particular job.

In fact...Robert Horry was traded from the Rockets because he wouldn't shoot more...not because he couldn't. Perhaps he knew something they didn't...

I think you fail to see the point...that Charles Barkley was traded for him.





I would have no problem with Robert Horry being inducted into a "Role Player's Wing" of the HOF.

I would...






Hmmmm...

In Phoenix, Barkley made a trip to the NBA Finals in four seasons. Horry didn't last a season there. Phoenix certainly hasn't been back to the Finals since Barkley left.

Horry didn't last a season there becuase he didn't want to be there. Not because they didn't want him there.




As for Malone...

2003 LA Lakers 50-32, lost in second round to San Antonio
2004 LA Lakers 56-26, lost in NBA Finals to Detroit

Yeah...I guess Robert Horry was a lot more important than you realize...since hw was hurt in 2003. Imagine...a role player being that important.

As for 2004...don't blame Horry, he wasn't the guy being doubled off of...


I guess since Tim Duncan was on that team...Karl Malone is better than Tim Duncan...I mean after all, he beat him.




The Lakers had Horry in 2003 and lost to San Antonio. The Lakers had Malone in 2004 and beat San Antonio - who had Robert Horry.

In 2003 Robert Horry was hurt, in 2004 the Spurs had bigger problems than Robert Horry...

I guess Horry wasn't the difference in 04...and neither were Tim Duncan, Manu Ginobili and Tony Parker.

[SRJ]

I don't know...is this the same Finals MVP that Tony Parker and Chauncey Billups have one of and LeBron, Kobe and Garnett have none of?

The answer to that seems pretty obvious to me, but if you want to play dumb when it suits you, have at it. Of course, that's the entire theme of this thread, but hey - I've got time to kill.


I see...and how many of those players have as many as Horry does?

No no no...you can't say that moments are important as though its the be-all end-all, then ask for more of them from certain players. I didn't see a "Five Moment Minimum" in that HOF mission statement.


Is it Horry's fault he was born too late to be idolized by Bird and Magic?

We already have a generation of players who grew up idolizing Shaq. Since Horry was in Shaq's draft class, it seems logical to me that some of them would have idolized Horry too. But then again, that would mean kids grew up wanting to sit on the bench, and most kids don't do that.


So why doesn't' AI do it every year?

Good question. Why doesn't HOF Robert Horry have fifteen rings?


And I think Robert Horry could have bailed Shaq and Kobe's ass out in that series in one particularly memorable game...in fact I think he did so.

Clutch play in a 4-1 series win? I guess Avery Johnson's shot in 99 was clutch.


Any one can produce statistics if they are the one with the ball.

Someone tell Jeff Foster and Sean Marks that they can be All-Stars.


Horry didn't last a season there becuase he didn't want to be there. Not because they didn't want him there.

Boy, that's having a pro's attitude. Who's he, Steve Francis?


Yeah...I guess Robert Horry was a lot more important than you realize...since hw was hurt in 2003. Imagine...a role player being that important.

If Robert Horry was hurt in 2003, who missed that wide open shot in game five? And if that was Robert Horry, how did he miss it? That was HOFer Robert Horry missing his signature shot!


As for 2004...don't blame Horry, he wasn't the guy being doubled off of...

That's the beauty of being a role player - the blame isn't yours when things don't go well. Horry said so in that quote to Mike Wilbon, to which you called bullshit; why would you call bullshit on something HOFer Robert Horry said?

[whottt]

I can't tell a HOF player without HOF stats, and I can't tell one proudly


:tu

[SRJ]

It's an honor to be misquoted by you, whottt.

[01Snake]

Don't cry Murdoch. You're still and always will be legend!

http://www.bgu.ac.il/noar/students/interhug967/gil/tv-movie/airplane/murdock.jpg

[mystargtr34]

Kareem is a douche... he does come across as classless just from reading that little bit.

Makes me laugh.

[clubalien]

Nope, didn't forget about him at all.
I met him too and me too think he's a nice guy, but he didn't get HIV infected because he was filling all those hotelrooms with his class.

hiv from blood transfusion or is he gay?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Pretty lame and weak comments by Kareem, but then again he is a Laker.

[PlayoffEx-static]

Does Kareem acknowledge that he never would have had the record had the Russell Celtics used the same format as his Bucks and Laker teams? Sauce for the goose.

What an ass. This is why he has no job in the league. This is also why Rick Barry has no job in the league. I'm sure neither of them has a clue.

[ShoogarBear]

I'm saying definitely missed the playoffs as the best player on his team...

Something that may or may not be true of Oscar...but definitely isn't true of Magic Johnson.


I'm also saying that I don't necessarily think he was the best player on any of his championship teams.


Magic certainly did better with the Lakers without Kareem than Kareem did with them without Magic.

Well, I don't think there's any question that he was the best player on the 71 Bucks. And anything you can say about Kareem without Magic goes double for Oscar without Kareem.

Having said that, Kareem is an aloof, prickly personality and has always been that way. He is also a complicated, introspective person who insn't given to absolutes or empty platitudes. I doubt he was trying to dis Horry; he's just not the type to give anyone effusive praise.

[pauls931]

In all seriousness, Horry is not half the player Kareem was. They shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence. Horry has been a role player that thrived when he was on a team with a dominant center. Remember when he was in Phoenix? nada... Kareem dominated up to 1984 and then played about 3 or 4 pathetic years after that. You could build a team around kareem, not horry.

Horry has 2 people to thank, Hakeem and Tim... Without them he'd be Eric Piakowski.

edit: Horry can still run?

[PlayoffEx-static]

In all seriousness, Horry is not half the player Kareem was. They shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence. Horry has been a role player that thrived when he was on a team with a dominant center. Remember when he was in Phoenix? nada... Kareem dominated up to 1984 and then played about 3 or 4 pathetic years after that. You could build a team around kareem, not horry.

Horry has 2 people to thank, Hakeem and Tim... Without them he'd be Eric Piakowski.

edit: Horry can still run?

He was wioth Phoenix for half a year, and I don't think I was ever more fond of him than when he threw a towel in Ainge's face. Well, OK, THE SHOT in 2005 was better, but nothing else.

No one is saying that he's a better player than Kareem. He's just one of the MOST clutch playoff performers in NBA history, and probably deserved congratulations from KAJ instead of excuses about numbers of games played. As I stated above, if the Celtics had played the formats that Kareem did, he never would have gotten the record from Russell after 11 championships.

Yes, he was a role player, but I think that up to three of those rings don't happen without Big Shot Rob. He hit at least one HUGE shot for Houston (SA), LA(Sacto) and SA(Detroit) to propel them to series wins in championship years.

[pauls931]

He was wioth Phoenix for half a year, and I don't think I was ever more fond of him than when he threw a towel in Ainge's face. Well, OK, THE SHOT in 2005 was better, but nothing else.

No one is saying that he's a better player than Kareem. He's just one of the MOST clutch playoff performers in NBA history, and probably deserved congratulations from KAJ instead of excuses about numbers of games played. As I stated above, if the Celtics had played the formats that Kareem did, he never would have gotten the record from Russell after 11 championships.

I agree he's clutch, before getting thumped by the Spurs I had to tolerate the Rockets and got to see plenty of his shots. I just see him getting this record as being a result of being on the right teams. Somehow whoever had the most dominant center, horry found his way to that team.

Forgot about him having to thank Shaq too. :) Horry had to be on the team with the best center to function.