Chokers

[Findog]

Higher seed goes up 2-0 behind two dominating performances, then loses a Game 7 at home. Yet you won't hear this because of the deep-throating fellatio by the media towards Chris Paul. He didn't dominate or put his stamp on the game last night. If the Mavericks are "chokers," then the Hornets surely are as well.

[sribb43]

The one thing about the mavs is in the Dirk era, they are 3-0 in game 7's at home....those are games you are supposed to win

[stretch]

Paul and West both played soft and resorted to nothing but fadeaways and were not very agressive. Pargo had the most balls on that team.

But I'll give them both a pass this time, because they are still young and it was their first playoff appearances, and for the most part, they both had an exceptional playoff run and laid a good foundation for future runs. It's not easy to beat such an experience San Antonio team, much less in a game 7. Only Dallas has been able to pull that off. In fact, the only two teams that have beaten San Antonio in their championship run, has been LA and Dallas (I can't really count that Phoenix crap cuz Timmy was hurt)

[mystargtr34]

Shaq Dirk and Malone are the only three guys who have eliminated Duncan since he came to the league... not too bad i say.

I think everybody knows Dirk gets a ridiculously unfair rap compared to other guys.

[Anti.Hero]

To the Hornets credit, I don't think David West played in the 4th.

[stretch]

Do the Hornets credit, I don't think David West played in the 4th.

actually he did. it just seemed that way cuz he didnt really do anything.

[Findog]

Paul and West both played soft and resorted to nothing but fadeaways and were not very agressive. Pargo had the most balls on that team.

But I'll give them both a pass this time, because they are still young and it was their first playoff appearances, and for the most part, they both had an exceptional playoff run and laid a good foundation for future runs. It's not easy to beat such an experience San Antonio team, much less in a game 7. Only Dallas has been able to pull that off. In fact, the only two teams that have beaten San Antonio in their championship run, has been LA and Dallas (I can't really count that Phoenix crap cuz Timmy was hurt)

Utah beat the Spurs in Duncan's first year.

And this isn't meant to be a anti-Hornets post because they are surely a top-five team, they gave the Spurs everything but the kitchen sink, and they have a terrific foundation for the future. But if the Mavericks "choked" against Miami, then the Hornets surely did as well to San Antonio.

I guess my point is that the choking term is thrown around way, way too much. I don't remember who said it, but after Boston barely squeaked past Cleveland, somebody said "Boston has been exposed. They will surely choke against Detroit or the West champ." Considering the teams left are all better than Boston, how is that exactly a "choke?"

[Anti.Hero]

actually he did. it just seemed that way cuz he didnt really do anything.

sarcasm man :depressed

unless you just double sarcasm tricked me

[nkdlunch]

picture of David West in the 4th quarter of game 7:

http://www.1stopfordogs.com/images/dogs2005/rottweiler-puppy-picture1a.jpg

[sribb43]

picture of David West in the 4th quarter of game 7:

http://www.1stopfordogs.com/images/dogs2005/rottweiler-puppy-picture1a.jpg

:lmao

[Findog]

The most satisfying thing of the playoffs is watching West's balls shrink in the 4th quarter. Ooh, you're a big, bad man because you love-tapped Dirk's face.

[ElNono]

Higher seed goes up 2-0 behind two dominating performances, then loses a Game 7 at home. Yet you won't hear this because of the deep-throating fellatio by the media towards Chris Paul. He didn't dominate or put his stamp on the game last night. If the Mavericks are "chokers," then the Hornets surely are as well.

I don't know about the entire Hornets team, but David West certainly did his best Casper impersonation in Game 7.

[sribb43]

Nice to see Peja still enjoys choking in big games....3-11 fg 1-5 3fg

[Findog]

Nice to see Peja still enjoys choking in big games....3-11 fg 1-5 3fg

And a vintage airball 3 attempt when he was wide open. He did that in Game 7 of the Kings-Lakers classic series.

[sribb43]

And a vintage airball 3 attempt when he was wide open. He did that in Game 7 of the Kings-Lakers classic series.

what was up with that 30ft 3 he shot in the last 2 minutes with they were down 6

[monosylab1k]

Amazing how there's still some fucktard Kings fans out there who insist that Peja Chokeovic is better than Dirk.

[sribb43]

Amazing how there's still some fucktard Kings fans out there who insist that Peja Chokeovich is better than Dirk.

i remember when those 2 where compared to each other:lmao

[ElNono]

Amazing how there's still some fucktard Kings fans out there who insist that Peja Chokeovich is better than Dirk.

IMHO, in the choking department, they're both par for the course.

[Red Hawk #21]

This thread is spot on, I don't know why their is so much Mavs and Dirk hate.

[DazedAndConfused]

I think the most hilarious part of last night's game was watching Pargo act like he was Kobe in the 4th.

CP3 and West were afraid of the ball.

[CubanMustGo]

This thread is spot on, I don't know why their is so much Mavs and Dirk hate.

1. Mark Cuban, for all the good he has done (see, even I can admit it), rubs a lot of people the way wrong way. He has gotten much better in the last year or two but a reputation, once established, is hard to overcome (e.g. Spurs 'floppers,' 'dirty,' 'boring,' etc.)
2. The infamous "parade route" story after Mavs were up 2-0.
3. Dirk can be inconsistent in the clutch. So can Duncan (see last series), but Duncan has the rings and so gets a pass. Dirk was a warrior this year but again there's that perception thing.
4. Two consecutive first-round exits.

What gets me is how the media just loves a choker like LeBronnie and always cuts him slack. OK, he had 40-odd in game 7, but what about the rest of the series where he was shooting 30% ?

[sribb43]

1. Mark Cuban, for all the good he has done (see, even I can admit it), rubs a lot of people the way wrong way. He has gotten much better in the last year or two but a reputation, once established, is hard to overcome (e.g. Spurs 'floppers,' 'dirty,' 'boring,' etc.)
2. The infamous "parade route" story after Mavs were up 2-0.
3. Dirk can be inconsistent in the clutch. So can Duncan (see last series), but Duncan has the rings and so gets a pass. Dirk was a warrior this year but again there's that perception thing.
4. Two consecutive first-round exits.

What gets me is how the media just loves a choker like LeBronnie and always cuts him slack. OK, he had 40-odd in game 7, but what about the rest of the series where he was shooting 30% ?

dont get me started on KG...

[Findog]

dont get me started on KG...

INTENSITY!

CHEST POUND!

[Findog]

1. Mark Cuban, for all the good he has done (see, even I can admit it), rubs a lot of people the way wrong way. He has gotten much better in the last year or two but a reputation, once established, is hard to overcome (e.g. Spurs 'floppers,' 'dirty,' 'boring,' etc.)
2. The infamous "parade route" story after Mavs were up 2-0.
3. Dirk can be inconsistent in the clutch. So can Duncan (see last series), but Duncan has the rings and so gets a pass. Dirk was a warrior this year but again there's that perception thing.
4. Two consecutive first-round exits.

What gets me is how the media just loves a choker like LeBronnie and always cuts him slack. OK, he had 40-odd in game 7, but what about the rest of the series where he was shooting 30% ?

The Mavs had nothing to do with the parade route story. That was all Laura Miller's doing. And if the Heat needed that imagined slight to play better...

[JamStone]

Higher seed goes up 2-0 behind two dominating performances, then loses a Game 7 at home. Yet you won't hear this because of the deep-throating fellatio by the media towards Chris Paul. He didn't dominate or put his stamp on the game last night. If the Mavericks are "chokers," then the Hornets surely are as well.

It could also be the fact that the Hornets weren't really the favorites even though they were the higher seed and had HCA. The Hornets and the Spurs did have identical regular season records (56-26) and the Spurs are the defending champs. Even with HCA and going up 2-0, the Hornets weren't just given the series by any analyst.

The Hornets did choke to a certain extent, especially David West. Paul gripped a bit, missed some huge free throws, didn't play as aggressively as he had played. Overall, you don't hear as much criticism because most people didn't think they would have been in that position in the first place, even at the start of the playoffs after their great regular season.

[Findog]

It could also be the fact that the Hornets weren't really the favorites even though they were the higher seed and had HCA. The Hornets and the Spurs did have identical regular season records (56-26) and the Spurs are the defending champs. Even with HCA and going up 2-0, the Hornets weren't just given the series by any analyst.

The Hornets did choke to a certain extent, especially David West. Paul gripped a bit, missed some huge free throws, didn't play as aggressively as he had played. Overall, you don't hear as much criticism because most people didn't think they would have been in that position in the first place, even at the start of the playoffs after their great regular season.

Hey, just to go back to my original point, to draw parallels, the Mavs were not overwhelming consensus favorites to beat the Heat despite having HCA and a better regular season record. The Heat definitely had more veteran experience than Dallas, and just like the Hornets, the Mavericks went up 2-0 after two great performances at home. Being down 0-2 is a strategically perilous position to be in.

[stretch]

Utah beat the Spurs in Duncan's first year.


That was before he started winning titles though. I write off pretty much every players first playoff appearance. Gotta cut them all a little slack.

[stretch]

sarcasm man :depressed

unless you just double sarcasm tricked me

yup. :lol

[monosylab1k]

And if the Heat needed that imagined slight to play better...

then what? If they took a definite slap in the face from the mayor of Dallas and used that to fuel them to play harder, then well, it worked. They're champs and the Mavericks aren't.

not to mention the fact that the Mavs players probably had that parade route memorized and were working on celebration speeches, judging by the way they played in the 4th quarter of game 3 and then game 4.

[sribb43]

Hey, just to go back to my original point, to draw parallels, the Mavs were not overwhelming consensus favorites to beat the Heat despite having HCA and a better regular season record. The Heat definitely had more veteran experience than Dallas, and just like the Hornets, the Mavericks went up 2-0 after two great performances at home. Being down 0-2 is a strategically perilous position to be in.

the 2-3-2 finals format didnt help either....the NHL still does 2-2-1-1-1 in the finals, so should the NBA

[stretch]

OK, he had 40-odd in game 7, but what about the rest of the series where he was shooting 30% ?

He did what true superstars did. If your shot isn't falling, get to the line and find ways to make plays, whether for yourself, or for others. And when he needed to, he made all kinds of big plays at huge times in that series. keep in mind its hard to do that consistently though when you are always getting triple teamed and your teammates are airballing wide open shots. see Jordan (GOAT and most clutch player ever) in his early series' against the Bad Boys Pistons, when he faced the exact same problems and defensive fronts as Lebron.

[Findog]

then what? If they took a definite slap in the face from the mayor of Dallas and used that to fuel them to play harder, then well, it worked. They're champs and the Mavericks aren't.

not to mention the fact that the Mavs players probably had that parade route memorized and were working on celebration speeches, judging by the way they played in the 4th quarter of game 3 and then game 4.

My point is that the parade route thing had no effect on the Heat whatsoever. There's no team out there that said "Wait, the city of Dallas is planning a parade? Well, now we're motivated to win a championship." It's just something to talk shit about and rub noses in after the fact. The Hornets didn't need any more motivation upon learning the Mavericks wanted them instead of the Lakers, it's just an opportunity for post-mortem trashtalking, as in "Oh, so you wanted to play us, how did that work out for you?"

[monosylab1k]

My point is that the parade route thing had no effect on the Heat whatsoever. There's no team out there that said "Wait, the city of Dallas is planning a parade? Well, now we're motivated to win a championship." It's just something to talk shit about and rub noses in after the fact. The Hornets didn't need any more motivation upon learning the Mavericks wanted them instead of the Lakers, it's just an opportunity for post-mortem trashtalking, as in "Oh, so you wanted to play us, how did that work out for you?"

If bulletin board material didn't work, the term "bulletin board material" wouldn't exist. Not saying it's the only motivating factor, or that it works all the time, but obviously feeling disrespected and working harder to shove it back in their face has worked enough in the past that every coach will try using bulletin board material whenever they can.

[JamStone]

Hey, just to go back to my original point, to draw parallels, the Mavs were not overwhelming consensus favorites to beat the Heat despite having HCA and a better regular season record. The Heat definitely had more veteran experience than Dallas, and just like the Hornets, the Mavericks went up 2-0 after two great performances at home. Being down 0-2 is a strategically perilous position to be in.

I think the Mavs were the favorites, maybe not overwhelming favorites, but still solid favorites. And, to me, the Hornets weren't the favorites at all.

Shaq was viewed as older and starting to decline and the rest of that Heat team that were veterans were also viewed as over-the-hill, like GP and Alonzo.

And, again, the Hornets and Spurs both won 56 games in the regular season. In 2006, the Mavericks won 60 and the Heat won 52. The Mavs were definitely viewed as the better team.

What also adds to the "choke" perception of the 2006 Mavs is the fact that they had game 3. They were up pretty big in the second half of game 3 in Miami and then that's when the series turned around. They didn't win another game.

The Hornets didn't lose four straight games to the Spurs. They won game 5 at home and in a convincing manner. The Mavs folded after losing game 3 and never recovered.

[SpursIndonesia]

Teams choke, Spurs did in 2004, thankfully that doesn't happen again and again though.

[Findog]

I think the Mavs were the favorites, maybe not overwhelming favorites, but still solid favorites. And, to me, the Hornets weren't the favorites at all.

Plenty of people picked the Hornets. The Spurs were not overwhelming consensus faves. The Heat weren't either, but both the Mavs and Hornets blew 2-0 leads and lacked poise the rest of the series.



Shaq was viewed as older and starting to decline and the rest of that Heat team that were veterans were also viewed as over-the-hill, like GP and Alonzo.

Alonzo was terrific in that series, and GP played well too.



And, again, the Hornets and Spurs both won 56 games in the regular season. In 2006, the Mavericks won 60 and the Heat won 52. The Mavs were definitely viewed as the better team.

I think it's been well-established by now that regular season W-L records are not as meaningful or give us as much insight as previously thought. Boston had by far the best W-L record of all teams remaining, and IMO they're the worst team left.



The Hornets didn't lose four straight games to the Spurs. They won game 5 at home and in a convincing manner. The Mavs folded after losing game 3 and never recovered.

No, but they did lose four out of five. My real point in starting this thread is that I think the "choke" term is thrown around way too casually. It's almost pretty much become synonymous with "lose." However, if we can agree that "choking" is to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, then the Mavs and Hornets both did that by blowing a 2-0 lead when they were in the drivers' seat.

[JamStone]

Plenty of people picked the Hornets. The Spurs were not overwhelming consensus faves. The Heat weren't either, but both the Mavs and Hornets blew 2-0 leads and lacked poise the rest of the series.

Some people may have though the Hornets had a chance. A lot of people started to think it was possible after they won the first two games. Most people didn't think the Hornets were going to beat the Spurs when the series began, and definitely not when the playoffs started. A lot of people thought the Hornets weren't going to make it past Dallas in the first round.



Alonzo was terrific in that series, and GP played well too.

Alonzo average 11 minutes a game in the 2006 Finals.

Gary Payton shot 37% from the field, 14% from the three point line in the 2006 Finals. Antoine Walker averaged more assists than GP in that series.



I think it's been well-established by now that regular season W-L records are not as meaningful or give us as much insight as previously thought. Boston had by far the best W-L record of all teams remaining, and IMO they're the worst team left.

That has been most established because of the 2006-07 Dallas Mavericks.

The Mavericks were still viewed as the better team in 2005-06, and in the 2006 NBA Finals.



No, but they did lose four out of five. My real point in starting this thread is that I think the "choke" term is thrown around way too casually. It's almost pretty much become synonymous with "lose." However, if we can agree that "choking" is to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, then the Mavs and Hornets both did that by blowing a 2-0 lead when they were in the drivers' seat.

Losing four in a row and losing two then having the poise to win game 5 and then losing game 6 and then losing game 7 that comes down to the final minute against the defending champs are two different things.

The Hornets showed poise in game 5. They showed poise in getting back in game 7 in the fourth quarter. The Mavericks didn't show poise, and they were more experienced than this year's Hornets team.

The two series played out differently. The Mavericks were up 2-0 and had a big lead in game 3 on the road in the second half. That's when they choked on it. The Hornets were never really in a position to beat the Spurs in San Antonio. And, they lost in game 7 in the final minute after being down to the better tested, more experienced team.

If you want to label both as "chokes," that's fine. But, they aren't the two series are not similar beyond the fact that they both started out 2-0.

[SpursDynasty]

Utah beat the Spurs in Duncan's first year.

And this isn't meant to be a anti-Hornets post because they are surely a top-five team, they gave the Spurs everything but the kitchen sink, and they have a terrific foundation for the future. But if the Mavericks "choked" against Miami, then the Hornets surely did as well to San Antonio.

I guess my point is that the choking term is thrown around way, way too much. I don't remember who said it, but after Boston barely squeaked past Cleveland, somebody said "Boston has been exposed. They will surely choke against Detroit or the West champ." Considering the teams left are all better than Boston, how is that exactly a "choke?"

The Hornets didn't choke...they weren't the favorites in the series. They went up 2-0 but that's only on some bullshit shots and calls at home..the Spurs took 4 of the next 5...they were expected to win the series.

[RonMexico]

Paul and West both played soft and resorted to nothing but fadeaways and were not very agressive. Pargo had the most balls on that team.

But I'll give them both a pass this time, because they are still young and it was their first playoff appearances, and for the most part, they both had an exceptional playoff run and laid a good foundation for future runs. It's not easy to beat such an experience San Antonio team, much less in a game 7. Only Dallas has been able to pull that off. In fact, the only two teams that have beaten San Antonio in their championship run, has been LA and Dallas (I can't really count that Phoenix crap cuz Timmy was hurt)

Jason Kidd was hurt for that series too... it was all about Kevin Johnson.

[pad300]

The two series played out differently. The Mavericks were up 2-0 and had a big lead in game 3 on the road in the second half. That's when they choked on it. The Hornets were never really in a position to beat the Spurs in San Antonio. And, they lost in game 7 in the final minute after being down to the better tested, more experienced team.

If you want to label both as "chokes," that's fine. But, they aren't the two series are not similar beyond the fact that they both started out 2-0.

In support of Jamstone, my personal takes on the 2 series went like this. Whne the series started,I thought that the Mavs of 06 could have spotted Miami a 2 game lead, and still won that series... Whereas, I only started worrying about NO, when they had a 2 game lead after 2 blowouts. Even then, I thought the Spurs could come back... In other words, I thought that both the Mavs and the Spurs had significant advantages in their series. The Hornets put up one hell of a fight, albeit aided by the Spurs not really playing up to their own standards. Whereas the Mavs played down to, and fell to, an inferior opponent...

[stretch]

Jason Kidd was hurt for that series too... it was all about Kevin Johnson.

TD > Jason Kidd

[stretch]

Alonzo average 11 minutes a game in the 2006 Finals.

Gary Payton shot 37% from the field, 14% from the three point line in the 2006 Finals. Antoine Walker averaged more assists than GP in that series.

You obviously did not watch the series then.

Alonzo was much more effective and important for the Heat than you realize, and in many people's opinions (including mine) was the second most important player in that series. his energy, shot blocking, and physical play was huge. And Payton hit some big shots in that series as well.

[jack sommerset]

Mavericks are chokers. Big difference between the two. Finals-Miami . Dallas up 2-0. Wade has 5 fouls and the heat are losing by 10 with 10 to go in game. Wade scores,scores and scores. Wade never fouls out. Mavericks lose 3 more in a row. Choke begins.

Mavericks win 67 games, lose in 1st round. Choke in full circle.

Mavs lose first round this year. Choke over, They suck.


Hornets are young, played hard, were injuried by Spews but continue to try. Not a choke job.

Makes me laugh. Hornets losing to Spews, its a small upset.

[JamStone]

You obviously did not watch the series then.

Alonzo was much more effective and important for the Heat than you realize, and in many people's opinions (including mine) was the second most important player in that series. his energy, shot blocking, and physical play was huge. And Payton hit some big shots in that series as well.

I watched the series. Just didn't memorize every play. Not saying Zo didn't have an impact. But, how big is the impact of a player that plays 11 minutes a game and isn't a scorer? He blocked a few shots, was inside presence. I get it. A role player can be "terrific" and still not be much of a difference.

Payton wasn't a major difference maker in that series either. Weren't Wade's free throws the difference?

[SpursDynasty]

Dallas and New Orleans didn't choke in '06 and '08....Miami and SA were the favorites to win those series.

Dallas got to the Finals on lucky jump shots.
New Orleans got to the 2nd round on flopping and lucky shots.

[TheSanityAnnex]

Amazing how there's still some fucktard Kings fans out there who insist that Peja Chokeovic is better than Dirk.I'd be amazed if you could find one.

[Bruno]

Mavs losing last year or the final two years ago was a choke job.
However, even if a team chokes, it doesn't mean that all his players are chokers.
To me, Dirk isn't a choker at all. It's really unfair to put this label on him.
Chokers are players like Peja or Josh Howard.

[Flo-Rida]

1. Mark Cuban, for all the good he has done (see, even I can admit it), rubs a lot of people the way wrong way. He has gotten much better in the last year or two but a reputation, once established, is hard to overcome (e.g. Spurs 'floppers,' 'dirty,' 'boring,' etc.)
2. The infamous "parade route" story after Mavs were up 2-0.
3. Dirk can be inconsistent in the clutch. So can Duncan (see last series), but Duncan has the rings and so gets a pass. Dirk was a warrior this year but again there's that perception thing.
4. Two consecutive first-round exits.

What gets me is how the media just loves a choker like LeBronnie and always cuts him slack. OK, he had 40-odd in game 7, but what about the rest of the series where he was shooting 30% ?

that my friend was classic

[Red Hawk #21]

that my friend was classic

Fuck that shit, your team cheated to win, the Mavs were the better team, Mourning and Haslem were allowed to beat Dirk up and Dwyane Wade was allowed to go to the freethrow line 97 times. And people still say this series was fair?, Fuck that series, and Fuck the Miami Heat, and Fuck Stern for allowing some rigged shit like that go on. :ihit

[Flo-Rida]

Fuck that shit, your team cheated to win, the Mavs were the better team, Mourning and Haslem were allowed to beat Dirk up and Dwyane Wade was allowed to go to the freethrow line 97 times. And people still say this series was fair?, Fuck that series, and Fuck the Miami Heat, and Fuck Stern for allowing some rigged shit like that go on. :ihit
it is what it is, hate on it thats all you can do. :toast

[stretch]

I watched the series. Just didn't memorize every play. Not saying Zo didn't have an impact. But, how big is the impact of a player that plays 11 minutes a game and isn't a scorer? He blocked a few shots, was inside presence. I get it. A role player can be "terrific" and still not be much of a difference.

Payton wasn't a major difference maker in that series either. Weren't Wade's free throws the difference?

You obviously were not paying much attention, or had a little too much to drink when watching the games. Zo was a major difference in the series. There were a number of times when the Heat looked gassed and lazy, then he came in the game and gave them a massive charge of energy and got them right back into the game. Virtually every time he entered, the Heat would get recharged and go on some type of run, especially in game 6. Those 5 blocks were a major difference in that game, which was the game that won the series. Take those away, and that could be up to 10 more points for the Mavericks, and allow them to regain control of the series for a game 7 at home. His leadership, will, and desire to win obviously had a huge effect on the team. Keep in mind this is a team with a guy who talks like he actually cares about winning, but obvously doesnt give a shit about winning as evidenced by his incredibly lazy work ethic (Shaq), Antoine Walker, Jason Williams... lazy bums.

And Payton hit a HUGE shot in game 5, which was probably the most controversial game of the series. I'd say that would be a bit of a difference maker. If you don't think so, then suit yourself.

[sribb43]

it is what it is, hate on it thats all you can do. :toast

:bang

[Flo-Rida]

You obviously were not paying much attention, or had a little too much to drink when watching the games. Zo was a major difference in the series. There were a number of times when the Heat looked gassed and lazy, then he came in the game and gave them a massive charge of energy and got them right back into the game. Virtually every time he entered, the Heat would get recharged and go on some type of run, especially in game 6. Those 5 blocks were a major difference in that game, which was the game that won the series. Take those away, and that could be up to 10 more points for the Mavericks, and allow them to regain control of the series for a game 7 at home. His leadership, will, and desire to win obviously had a huge effect on the team. Keep in mind this is a team with a guy who talks like he actually cares about winning, but obvously doesnt give a shit about winning as evidenced by his incredibly lazy work ethic (Shaq), Antoine Walker, Jason Williams... lazy bums.

And Payton hit a HUGE shot in game 5, which was probably the most controversial game of the series. I'd say that would be a bit of a difference maker. If you don't think so, then suit yourself.

Very true Zo played game 6 like if it was a life and death situation he just altered so many shot that would have came back to bite us in the ass.

As for Gary Payton he was a beast in clutch situations from the biggest shot of the series in game 3 to the big layup in game 5.

[JamStone]

You obviously were not paying much attention, or had a little too much to drink when watching the games. Zo was a major difference in the series. There were a number of times when the Heat looked gassed and lazy, then he came in the game and gave them a massive charge of energy and got them right back into the game. Virtually every time he entered, the Heat would get recharged and go on some type of run, especially in game 6. Those 5 blocks were a major difference in that game, which was the game that won the series. Take those away, and that could be up to 10 more points for the Mavericks, and allow them to regain control of the series for a game 7 at home. His leadership, will, and desire to win obviously had a huge effect on the team. Keep in mind this is a team with a guy who talks like he actually cares about winning, but obvously doesnt give a shit about winning as evidenced by his incredibly lazy work ethic (Shaq), Antoine Walker, Jason Williams... lazy bums.

And Payton hit a HUGE shot in game 5, which was probably the most controversial game of the series. I'd say that would be a bit of a difference maker. If you don't think so, then suit yourself.


Well shit. Guess we can talk about Peja shotting 17 for 28 from the field in games 1 and 2. Or Bonzi's 10 points off the bench in game 1. Or Morris Peterson shooting 4 for 6 from 3 point range in game 5.

Those are just as significant as the "few" plays Zo and GP had in wins.

That's the point. Bit players can have a few good or even great plays, maybe even a good overall game. That doesn't mean they're the difference.

[Findog]

You obviously did not watch the series then.

Alonzo was much more effective and important for the Heat than you realize, and in many people's opinions (including mine) was the second most important player in that series. his energy, shot blocking, and physical play was huge. And Payton hit some big shots in that series as well.

Thank you.

[stretch]

Well shit. Guess we can talk about Peja shotting 17 for 28 from the field in games 1 and 2. Or Bonzi's 10 points off the bench in game 1. Or Morris Peterson shooting 4 for 6 from 3 point range in game 5.

Those are just as significant as the "few" plays Zo and GP had in wins.

That's the point. Bit players can have a few good or even great plays, maybe even a good overall game. That doesn't mean they're the difference.

the difference was these guys stepped up in close games, big-time situations when it mattered most.

the hornets just hit a bunch of shots when the game was already a blowout to begin with. besides, they lost. winning makes a bit of a difference there.

Fail.

[dickface]

I guess Corliss Williamson was never a difference maker.

[JamStone]

Corliss Williamson was not a difference maker on the 2004 Pistons.

[san antonio spurs]

How can one compare the Hornets and the Mavs?
Like many people said, the mavs were up 2-0 and were about to win game 3 then they collapsed and never recovered. They went on losing four STRAIGHT. The following year they got embarrassed in the first round by an 8th seed while having the best record in all NBA. The young Hornets were just playing their first playoffs games together and after being tied 2-2 they regained their composure and routed the defending champs in game 5.
We say the Mavs are chokers because they did so and on many occasions. If they could've choked away the 2006 finals but managed somehow to reach the WCF the following year maybe then they would've shaken the chokers label. Instead, the followed that collapse by 2 consecutive first round exits.
Losing a 2-0 lead has happened to good and mentaly tough teams (2004 spurs, 2007 pistons) but you'll never hear anyone call them chokers.