CP3's assist numbers fudged?

[2centsworth]

according to this blog yes
http://20secondtimeout.blogspot.com/

CP3 should of only had 9 assists instead of 14.

A Breakdown of Chris Paul's 14 Game Seven Assists

1: Stojakovic jumper, 9:22 1st q--Correct; Stojakovic caught the pass and went straight into his shooting motion.
2: Chandler dunk, 7:01 1st q--Correct; Chandler caught the pass and dunked it.
3: West jumper, 6:21 1st q--Incorrect; West caught the ball with his back to the basket at the 6:26 mark. Paul moved from the left wing to the top of the key as West turned and faced up Fabricio Oberto. West then dribbled, did a spin move and shot a tough fadeaway jumper. There is no conceivable way that this can correctly be scored as an assist. An assist is only supposed to be awarded if the pass significantly contributed to the score and if the player who received the pass made an immediate reaction to shoot. West executed multiple moves and fakes before he scored.
4: West jumper, 4:33 1st q--Incorrect; this one is so bad it is ridiculous: West received the ball from Paul at the right free throw line extended at the 4:40 mark. West pump faked Oberto off of his feet, took four dribbles, made a spin move into the paint, came to a jump stop, did an up and under move and then shot a jump hook. Seven seconds, four dribbles and multiple fakes happened between Paul's pass and West's shot! If Paul deserves an assist, then I think that West's point guard at Xavier should get one, too--he had about as much to do with West making this shot as Paul did.
5: Chandler dunk, 7:09 2nd q--Correct; Chandler caught the pass and dunked it.
6: Stojakovic three pointer, 5:22 2nd q--Correct; Stojakovic caught the pass and went straight into his shooting motion.
7: Peterson three pointer, 4:43 2nd q--Correct; Peterson caught the pass and went straight into his shooting motion.
8: Stojakovic jumper, 3:31 2nd q--Incorrect; Stojakovic caught the pass, pump faked, used an escape dribble and then shot. If the shooter does more than half of the work the passer is not supposed to receive credit and this basket would never have been scored without the fake and the dribble move.
9: Peterson driving layup, :24 2nd q--Incorrect; Peterson received the ball at the three point line at the :27 mark. If he had shot it at that point then Paul would deserve an assist, but Peterson took two dribbles, drove past Tony Parker, eluded Tim Duncan and made a layup. That is a one on one (or one on two) move, not an assisted field goal.
10: West dunk, :07 3rd q--Correct; West caught the pass and dunked it.
11: Chandler dunk, 10:15 4th q--Correct; Chandler caught the pass and dunked it.
12: Pargo driving layup, 8:34 4th q--Incorrect; Pargo caught the pass at the three point line at the 8:38 mark, faked a shot, drove past Tony Parker and shot a tough runner. If assists are going to be awarded on this play and on play number nine above then every single time someone passes the ball and the recipient eventually scores an assist should be awarded. Obviously, that is not within the letter or the spirit of what an assist is supposed to be, namely a pass that creates a scoring opportunity that otherwise would not have existed. If Pargo had caught the ball and shot, then Paul would deserve an assist but once Pargo created a shot then the pass lost any claim of being worthy of being designated as an assist.
13: Chandler dunk, 7:59 4th q--Correct; Chandler caught the pass and dunked it.
14: Pargo three pointer, 1:35 4th q--Correct; Paul back tapped an offensive rebound to Pargo, who caught the pass and shot it. Paul was rightly credited with both an offensive rebound and an assist on this play.

[brettn]

lol, nice post. for some reason, this "granting" of assisits to Paul doesn't suprise me. Hmmm, I wonder what it could be... he's not a media darling or anything is he?


4: West jumper, 4:33 1st q--Incorrect; this one is so bad it is ridiculous: West received the ball from Paul at the right free throw line extended at the 4:40 mark. West pump faked Oberto off of his feet, took four dribbles, made a spin move into the paint, came to a jump stop, did an up and under move and then shot a jump hook. Seven seconds, four dribbles and multiple fakes happened between Paul's pass and West's shot! If Paul deserves an assist, then I think that West's point guard at Xavier should get one, too--he had about as much to do with West making this shot as Paul did.
fuckin' great.

[Behrooz24]

http://photos1.blogger.com/img/203/6416/640/2005_0615DavidPic00722.jpg
:lol Dude looks funny.


Very interesting though, I'm gonna rewatch all those later

[bdictjames]

I was wondering how the hell did Paul manage to have 14 assists on that game, either he made it too easy or some passes counted as assists but it actually didn't.

[2centsworth]

I was wondering how the hell did Paul manage to have 14 assists on that game, either he made it too easy or some passes counted as assists but it actually didn't.

I was very surprised to see that many assist. No way in hell he had that much of an impact.

[Das Texan]

wow, thats hilarious.

[JamStone]

Definitely looks suspicious. I've always gone by the two dribble-two seconds rule. If the player that gets the ball takes more than two dribbles or longer than two seconds to score, it should not be an assist.

I wouldn't be surprised to find out scorekeepers did much of the same thing for John Stockton and Jason Kidd and Magic and Isiah. Why not? Assists can be viewed arbitrarily. There does take some discretion in scoring a pass an assist. Shit like that happens all the time. Say a fielder has a string of error-less games going, a home scorekeeper might score what should be a two base error as a double for the hitter. I've seen that before. Or a runningback that has a string of games without fumbling the ball and then on a botched fumble that's clearly the runningback's fault, the scorekeeper charges the fumble to the quarterback.

But, it definitely looks curious.

[BRHornet45]

sons whats next? he clubs baby seals?

[Cry Havoc]

according to this blog yes
http://20secondtimeout.blogspot.com/

CP3 should of only had 9 assists instead of 14.

A Breakdown of Chris Paul's 14 Game Seven Assists

1: Stojakovic jumper, 9:22 1st q--Correct; Stojakovic caught the pass and went straight into his shooting motion.
2: Chandler dunk, 7:01 1st q--Correct; Chandler caught the pass and dunked it.
3: West jumper, 6:21 1st q--Incorrect; West caught the ball with his back to the basket at the 6:26 mark. Paul moved from the left wing to the top of the key as West turned and faced up Fabricio Oberto. West then dribbled, did a spin move and shot a tough fadeaway jumper. There is no conceivable way that this can correctly be scored as an assist. An assist is only supposed to be awarded if the pass significantly contributed to the score and if the player who received the pass made an immediate reaction to shoot. West executed multiple moves and fakes before he scored.
4: West jumper, 4:33 1st q--Incorrect; this one is so bad it is ridiculous: West received the ball from Paul at the right free throw line extended at the 4:40 mark. West pump faked Oberto off of his feet, took four dribbles, made a spin move into the paint, came to a jump stop, did an up and under move and then shot a jump hook. Seven seconds, four dribbles and multiple fakes happened between Paul's pass and West's shot! If Paul deserves an assist, then I think that West's point guard at Xavier should get one, too--he had about as much to do with West making this shot as Paul did.
5: Chandler dunk, 7:09 2nd q--Correct; Chandler caught the pass and dunked it.
6: Stojakovic three pointer, 5:22 2nd q--Correct; Stojakovic caught the pass and went straight into his shooting motion.
7: Peterson three pointer, 4:43 2nd q--Correct; Peterson caught the pass and went straight into his shooting motion.
8: Stojakovic jumper, 3:31 2nd q--Incorrect; Stojakovic caught the pass, pump faked, used an escape dribble and then shot. If the shooter does more than half of the work the passer is not supposed to receive credit and this basket would never have been scored without the fake and the dribble move.
9: Peterson driving layup, :24 2nd q--Incorrect; Peterson received the ball at the three point line at the :27 mark. If he had shot it at that point then Paul would deserve an assist, but Peterson took two dribbles, drove past Tony Parker, eluded Tim Duncan and made a layup. That is a one on one (or one on two) move, not an assisted field goal.
10: West dunk, :07 3rd q--Correct; West caught the pass and dunked it.
11: Chandler dunk, 10:15 4th q--Correct; Chandler caught the pass and dunked it.
12: Pargo driving layup, 8:34 4th q--Incorrect; Pargo caught the pass at the three point line at the 8:38 mark, faked a shot, drove past Tony Parker and shot a tough runner. If assists are going to be awarded on this play and on play number nine above then every single time someone passes the ball and the recipient eventually scores an assist should be awarded. Obviously, that is not within the letter or the spirit of what an assist is supposed to be, namely a pass that creates a scoring opportunity that otherwise would not have existed. If Pargo had caught the ball and shot, then Paul would deserve an assist but once Pargo created a shot then the pass lost any claim of being worthy of being designated as an assist.
13: Chandler dunk, 7:59 4th q--Correct; Chandler caught the pass and dunked it.
14: Pargo three pointer, 1:35 4th q--Correct; Paul back tapped an offensive rebound to Pargo, who caught the pass and shot it. Paul was rightly credited with both an offensive rebound and an assist on this play.

Props for the find and MAJOR props for the research. Paul was a shadow yesterday except for a brief stint in the 2nd quarter. 14 assists is ridiculous.

[ChumpDumper]

It's not a knock on Paul. Your statkeepers either don't know their job or they are inflating Paul's assist numbers.

And they club baby seals.

[Whisky Dog]

Steve Nash's greatness has been exposed

[101A]

Anybody check Paul's assist numbers home vs. away? This is two games in this series (both in NO) that the number was inflated.

[PM5K]

I posted this over there:

I checked all of these are you are totally correct.

The play by play on ESPN shows all of those as assists, while replaying those posessions again clearly shows none of those passes to be assists, none of them are even reasonably close to being assists.

So the real question is, how often does this happen?

[CP3-MVP]

it happends all the time in the league.

spurs fans really have something against the kid, huh?

[ChumpDumper]

I have something against baby seal clubbing statkeepers who don't know what an assist is.

[slowchild25]

Chris Paul regular season assists splits:

Home 11.9
Away 11.2

[Spurminator]

Aren't the scorekeepers neutral in the Playoffs?

[mVp]

This confirms that Paul's ass is overrated.

[Darcus]

I wonder if the Spurs really swept but they kept the scores wrong too

[K-State Spur]

sons whats next? he clubs baby seals?

well, illegitimate bastard child that i barely choose to acknowledge, it's right there in plain print - disprove it.

[slowchild25]

Chris Paul playoff assists splits:

Home 13.57
Away 8.00

hmmmm...

[CP3-MVP]

I hear CP3 is responsible for crucifying Jesus, too.

Oh and he is involved in a dog fighting ring with Michael Vick.

[Spuradicator]

I thought 14 seemed excessive for how much of a ghost he was

[koriwhat]

CP3 looking sharp for the cameras.
http://yaprouworld.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/fresh-prince-carlton-banks-400a111306.jpg

CP3 reenacting his run off the court.
http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r281/brazelino/f51cd6e2.gif

[PM5K]

it happends all the time in the league.

spurs fans really have something against the kid, huh?

Don't get me wrong, I love the kid, I even have his shoes, but I don't like such obvious stat fudging for anybody...

[timvp]

Eh, his stats aren't as fudged as John Stockton's assist numbers used to be. Stockton would get assists for everything. It got so bad at one point that the NBA actually stepped in and told the Jazz to get new statkeepers.

On the other hand, San Antonio has stingy assist statkeepers. Back when Pop was GM and Bob Hill was coach, Pop was quoted in the newspaper as saying the statkeepers need to be more generous with assists because the only reason AJ doesn't average double-figures in assists was because of the home statkeepers.

[PerforatedNeckline]

this looks bad when broken down assist by assist like this, but a differential in assists at home versus on the road is probably to be expected considering that paul's teammates are going to shoot better at home.

[Borosai]

The Hornets' stat keepers are using HAX!

[rAm]

omg HAX

[mathbzh]

It is interesting, I remember an ESPN suject on how great this generation of PG is with 4 players over 10 apg.

I wonder if all the assists stats are like this or only those of the top players.

That said Paul is still a great young PG whatever is real assist numbers are.

[mathbzh]

It also remind me that in the FIBA games it is much harder to receive credit for an assist.
Averaging over 5 apg already very good.

[kobe_mvp_24]

cp3 is overrated and is a choker, i cant believe he cudnt beat those old spurs

[smeagol]

On the other hand, San Antonio has stingy assist statkeepers. Back when Pop was GM and Bob Hill was coach, Pop was quoted in the newspaper as saying the statkeepers need to be more generous with assists because the only reason AJ doesn't average double-figures in assists was because of the home statkeepers.

Mucho AJ love!

[ShoogarBear]

Eh, his stats aren't as fudged as John Stockton's assist numbers used to be. Stockton would get assists for everything. It got so bad at one point that the NBA actually stepped in and told the Jazz to get new statkeepers.

:tu At its peak, Stockton averaged like 2 APG more at home than on the road, which is ridiculous.

One game Stockton had 3 more assists than the Jazz had FGM. The Utah scorekeeper said it was because he was practicing polygamassists.

[resistanze]

One game Stockton had 3 more assists than the Jazz had FGM. The Utah scorekeeper said it was because he was practicing polygamassists.
God damn. :lol

[GSH]

First of all, the whole stat-keeping process is screwed. It's subjective, inconsistent, and has been inflated over the years. In 1962, only 1 player averaged more than 8 assists per game, even though the teams averaged 118 points per game. Back then, assists were credited on about 50% of all field goals scored. Now it's over 60%.

And what's an assist? According to the NBA’s statisticians' manual, an assist is credited to the player tossing "the last pass leading directly to a field goal if, and only if, the player scoring the goal responds by demonstrating immediate reaction toward the basket." An assist can be credited if a receiving player takes a dribble, so long as he makes an immediate reaction toward the basket. If a player dribbles twice, it shouldn't result in an assist. But if a player in-bounds the ball to a teammate at mid-court, who goes uncontested for a layup, the scorer will sometimes award an assist.

The league is well aware of the value of superstars for increasing revenues. Paul's numbers have benefitted from that. But that's not the only thing affecting the numbers. There is a whole new wave of statisticians working NBA games. They are all trying to prove that they can be worth phenomenal salaries for revealing hidden secrets in the numbers. Statistics are always a great way to spin a lie. But when you have someone with an agenda collecting the stats, based on a very subjective set of circumstances, you're going to have some "amazing" results. And the statisticians are going to be able to tell people what they want to hear.

BTW - the best way to prevent a player from getting an assist is to make sure the player receiving the ball doesn't score. Pop didn't get caught up in the CP3 hype, and stuck to team defense.

[Cry Havoc]

:tu At its peak, Stockton averaged like 2 APG more at home than on the road, which is ridiculous.

One game Stockton had 3 more assists than the Jazz had FGM. The Utah scorekeeper said it was because he was practicing polygamassists.

Nah, he gets assists for patting the ass of the player shooting FTs. They need encouragement to do that in Utah.

[mrspurs]

now this is a thread that brings light to the sport of basketball, not just a thread for cheerleaders.....go spurs go

[Jon1798]

Assists are VERY subjective, and are not recorded anything like they used to be. Now, a player can catch the ball and dribble before scoring, and the passer still get an assist. Also, if CP3 were double teamed, and he passed out of it to a guy then in a better situation to score, he can be given an assist. Any time you are passing to a guy down on the block, I would say there is a very good chance to get an assist since that guy is in a good scoring position. It's kindof dumb, but it's what this league has turned to, this happened well before CP3.

[PM5K]

Assists aren't that subjective, on most of these plays the person receiving the assist took two or more dribbles, and moved sometimes as much as ten feet, I don't consider that an assist and can't see how anyone could.

[Jon1798]

Assists aren't that subjective, on most of these plays the person receiving the assist took two or more dribbles, and moved sometimes as much as ten feet, I don't consider that an assist and can't see how anyone could.

Well look, I have no idea about these particular plays, they could easily be BS.

But it doesn't matter how many steps you take or dribbles etc. That's what makes it so subjective. You could go all the way down court and score, and the passer still get an assist if the pass lead to an open run at the basket.

One example could be if the Spurs had two guys come out on CP3. If he was double teamed, and he passed out which lead to a score, that too can be called an assist. As long as the pass lead to some sort of advantage or good scoring opportunity. That can mean SO many things. It can also allow for people to give assists that may not be true assists.

This did not used to be like that. I don't believe they used to allow any dribbles after the pass. I think that negated an assist way back when.

[PM5K]

It may be subjective to some extent, when looking at the actual definition of an assist a couple of these plays could be considered an assist.

I guess I've had a different definition of "assist" for the past fifteen years or so.

"The last pass to a teammate that leads directly to a field goal; the scorer must move immediately toward the basket for the passer to be credited with an assist; only one assist can be credited per field goal"

Here is a crappy video for your enjoyment:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XO9yI6YqAis

[PM5K]

Thoughts?

[NRHector]

I hear CP3 is responsible for crucifying Jesus, too.

Oh and he is involved in a dog fighting ring with Michael Vick.and he looked like a nice guy:depressed

[PM5K]

and he looked like a nice guy:depressed

Any guy that looks like Carlton looks nice...

[Lakers_55]

maybe the stat keepers had proposition bets on how many assists CP3 would have?

[brettn]

Well look, I have no idea about these particular plays, they could easily be BS.

But it doesn't matter how many steps you take or dribbles etc. That's what makes it so subjective. You could go all the way down court and score, and the passer still get an assist if the pass lead to an open run at the basket.

One example could be if the Spurs had two guys come out on CP3. If he was double teamed, and he passed out which lead to a score, that too can be called an assist. As long as the pass lead to some sort of advantage or good scoring opportunity. That can mean SO many things. It can also allow for people to give assists that may not be true assists.

This did not used to be like that. I don't believe they used to allow any dribbles after the pass. I think that negated an assist way back when.

You're making an assist alot more complicated then it really is. Understandable, Chris Paul's your team's franchise player and you're just trying to defend him. But anyone who watches/has played basketball competetively USUALLY knows when there is and isn't assist. I personally haven't re-watched these plays, but from the description given by the author, those plays are in NO way an assist. Just because granting an assist to a player requires some amount of subjective reasoning is no reason to throw all logic out the window when counting or not counting an assist. That's the problem as I see it anyways.

[PM5K]

You're making an assist alot more complicated then it really is. Understandable, Chris Paul's your team's franchise player and you're just trying to defend him. But anyone who watches/has played basketball competetively USUALLY knows when there is and isn't assist. I personally haven't re-watched these plays, but from the description given by the author, those plays are in NO way an assist. Just because granting an assist to a player requires some amount of subjective reasoning is no reason to throw all logic out the window when counting or not counting an assist. That's the problem as I see it anyways.

I posted a video so see for yourself:

XO9yI6YqAis

[brettn]

Pretty ridiculous. I didn't know passing to your teammate and letting him create his own shot counted as an assist :rolleyes

[ManuTim_best of Fwiendz]

Assists are VERY subjective, and are not recorded anything like they used to be. Now, a player can catch the ball and dribble before scoring, and the passer still get an assist. Also, if CP3 were double teamed, and he passed out of it to a guy then in a better situation to score, he can be given an assist. Any time you are passing to a guy down on the block, I would say there is a very good chance to get an assist since that guy is in a good scoring position. It's kindof dumb, but it's what this league has turned to, this happened well before CP3.

Man...I'm so disillusioned .... :dizzy

[vander]

Man...I'm so disillusioned .... :dizzy

Yeah, exactly what I was thinking

[diego]

yeah kind of a non story, its been happening for days... for that matter, every botched call is a statiscal plus for one player and a minus for another- getting bailed out comes up backwards in the box score.

but now its on youtube and plain to see. thats why its always better to watch the games than go on stats, hollinger be damned!

[Parkerlooms]

who's CP3?

[hsxvvd]

Oh great, so all those assists he lodged against my fantasy team were bullshit too. So your telling me, I should have won my league this year. I lost assists by 3 lousy assists.

I wonder how many Roman Sessions was getting in that last week, or if the Bucks stats were done the same way.

[PM5K]

Man...I'm so disillusioned .... :dizzy

I don't get it?

[gino>yourlife]

:tu At its peak, Stockton averaged like 2 APG more at home than on the road, which is ridiculous.

One game Stockton had 3 more assists than the Jazz had FGM. The Utah scorekeeper said it was because he was practicing polygamassists.

:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol

[Darcus]

This is a pretty interesting subject. I don't think this is really exclusive to Chris Paul, but I have a question, though, for the conspiracy theorist types: How exactly does this botch positively affect the Hornets franchise?

It's not going to increase the attendance or TV ratings of the team in question, if the stats are faked and don't translate properly to the real desired outcome of more game wins. So I don't think money is a real motivation. And inflating assist stats really wouldn't do anything other than make other teams overestimate our team, which is not a desirable effect at all. And having better stats than reality is going to be confusing at the end of the season when you're trying to figure out who should be cut or not. I guess they could inflate his stats to make him more valuable if they planned on trading him, but I don't see the Hornets franchise letting go of CP3 anytime soon.

So for those who seem to think the Hornets franchise is behind this, what's the reason for doing it?

[ShoogarBear]

Does it have much of a primary effect on the game? Probably not. But if you believe the refs operate on a star system, you could argue padding the stats pushes CP3 into the higher stratosphere of NBA stars. If Bennett Salvatore believes he's averaging 13 assists a game instead of the 10 he should be getting, maybe subconsciously he's less likely to call a travel or a pushoff with the off arm.

Otherwise, it is kind of annoying to keep hearing about how Stockton has 5000 more assists than Magic, but know if you discounted the bogus ones, that difference would be much smaller.

[CP3-MVP]

the playoff stat keepers are neutral. so its not an "inside job"