List: Businesses or industries that can't sustain operation with 7 dollar gas.

[BacktoBasics]

Alright we hear the bitching day in and day out with no end but ultimately who can and can't sustain 7 dollar gas prices? What businesses, industries or hobbies will fail to stay afloat when we peak? We've managed to survive 4 dollar gas without too much change. Most recreational industries which were said to be hit the hardest have only slowed moderately. Luxury items are maintaining even if at a higher margin. I've come into contact with quite a few truckers that have sold out because they feel anything over 5 dollars a gallon is counter productive, I still haven't seen real shipping fallout beyond premature panic. Shipping charges in the RV world are only up a few hundred dollars from 2 years ago. Can small businesses hold off the fire sale?

So give me a list of who can't make it. Who has to close their doors because its too damn much?

[RandomGuy]

It depends on pricing power.

It also depends on whose margins are thinnest, and who is most exposed to rising energy prices.

One obvious answer is trucking will take a hit.

Say you make something for $8 bucks.
You sell to a customer who has two options for your product. One costs $10 and is made right next door to him. The other is your product, that costs $8 plus $1 for shipping.
That customer, all other things equal, will choose your product as long as your cost is below the local option.
Triple the shipping costs, and that customer will now have to choose between your product at $8 plus $3 shipping for $11 total, and the local option of $10.

This means fewer non-local sales for you, and less demand from you for shipping.

Rail is waaay more fuel efficient than trucking, so rail will take up a good chunk of slack from trucking.

[RandomGuy]

Retail will be hit pretty hard as well.

Given limited budgets, and rising fuel prices, a consumer must choose between getting to work, and buying that optional item.

Goods have gotten cheaper than they were 20 years ago, and this has led to an explosion of retail square footage per consumer.

Given that retail employs a LOT of people, this could have a nasty spiraling effect, if stores start closing.

On the other hand, manufacturing will make something of a comeback.

Given that shipping something halfway around the world is more and more expensive, local manufacturers will be more and more cost competitive. Goods will be made closer to where they are ultimately consumed.

[Extra Stout]

Independent trucking is already toast. Several airlines have already closed shop and most of the others are cutting back sharply.

The alternative to trucking is rail. The trade-off is flexibility. The just-in-time business model will die a quick death and we'll go back to the old inventory model.

Here the U.S. actually has a huge advantage over Europe because our rail system is geared heavily towards cargo whereas theirs is geared towards passenger travel. However, you will start to see investment in more double rail lines to improve the flexibility of those networks to allow more passenger travel.

Mobility by air will decrease but not disappear. Cheap travel to medium-sized cities far away will decline or disappear.

Luxury retail will survive because the wealthy are not constrained on disposable income. The mass consumer market will slow as we're already seeing. The freewheeling days of consumerism are coming to a close.

The IEA has admitted that we are already at or past Peak Oil.

Invest in solar. Now. Grid price equity is only a few years away. The technogeeks have found a way to make solar cells without silicon.

[DarkReign]

Invest in solar. Now. Grid price equity is only a few years away. The technogeeks have found a way to make solar cells without silicon.

Please expand.

[PixelPusher]

Please expand.

Nano Solar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanosolar)

[RandomGuy]

Please expand.

Carbon Polymer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_cell#Polymer_processing) offers another intriguing possibility.

There is some research into this because it is VERY cheap on a per meter basis, even though the electricity generating potential is lower than silicon.

Whether electricity producing organic sheets are ultimately commercially feasible remains to be seen, but they are still in the very beginnings of research into this. As the price of electricity climbs, so will the amount of $$$ thrown into research of organic photovoltaics.

[RandomGuy]

Nano Solar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanosolar)

For what it is worth:

Nano Solar cells require copper, a metal whose price has skyrocketed recently.

Silicon prices have been bottlenecked not because silicon is hard to find/mine, but because it is hard/energy intensive to get into a pure form.

Given increased demand I am fairly sure it is easier to ramp up silicon production than copper production.

Either way, solar is a great place to park long-term cash.

[RandomGuy]

Remember further that "solar" includes both thermal generation (focusing sunlight on a water filled tank to generate steam and drive a conventional turbine), and photovoltaic (direct production of electricity from sheets of silicon).

There will be great strides in energy efficiency in the coming decades. Notice this is not "I think there will be", but rather "There will be". Simple economics of more expensive energy will make such efficiencies as certain as the profit motive. I am as certain of this as I am of anything.

Example:

Steel mill must melt iron to make steel. Where does the excess heat go: Usually into the atmosphere.

Why not stick a boiler to make steam and electricity to capture even more of the energy from the fuels burned to melt that steel?

Same thing goes for companies that make bricks and have 2000 degree ovens to fire them.

Answer:
State protection of local utility monopolies.

Large manufacturers will end up competing with utilities by using the excess heat used in their processes to generate electricity.

There is a LOT of room for the US to become more energy efficient. I think the next couple of decades will see some pretty amazing things on this front.

[RandomGuy]

'Recycling' Energy Seen Saving Companies Money
by David Schaper


Morning Edition, May 22, 2008 · A Chicago-based entrepreneur says many industrial power users can save money, get more electricity, and reduce greenhouse gas emissions by using the energy they already consume more efficiently. It's called recycling energy — capturing waste heat and turning it into power.

Click here to get to web page where you can listen to the full story. (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=90714692)

[Extra Stout]

'Recycling' Energy Seen Saving Companies Money
by David Schaper



Click here to get to web page where you can listen to the full story. (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=90714692)
Yes, and I'm sure that entrepreneur is selling a consulting program to tell management about basic efficiency principles that plant/facility engineers already designed into the process 25 years ago.

[RandomGuy]

Yes, and I'm sure that entrepreneur is selling a consulting program to tell management about basic efficiency principles that plant/facility engineers already designed into the process 25 years ago.

Nope.

This guys is talking about doing the electricity generation from various industrial processes that generate a lot of waste heat, like the steel mill or the brick firing oven.

Think of it as "energy recycling".

Large office buildings generate large amounts of heat. Using a series of heat pumps it is possible to capture that heat, concentrate it, and use it to generate electricity.

The concept is similar to how hybrid cars work.

You spend energy, usually from gasoline, to get a car moving. When you hit the brakes, the brakes in a hybrid recapture a chunk of that original energy. Once that chunk is recaptured, it can be used to get the car moving again. You can't recapture 100% of the energy, but you can recapture enough to make a significant difference.

A large building uses electricity to run copiers, lights, computers, etc. This heat must be dissapated somehow. Your airconditioning units are essentially heat pumps that suck heat out of the building and discharge it into the atmosphere in the condensing units outside.

If you replace that condensing unit with a generator, you can recapture some heat/energy.

This is especially true in hot climates like texas, where you are attempting to get the building interior to a lower temperature than outside ambient air.

[xrayzebra]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2008/05/22/ccoil122.xml

Read the story. Link above.

Oil's perfect storm may blow over

By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard
Last Updated: 9:44am BST 23/05/2008

Have your say Read comments

The perfect storm that has swept oil prices to $132 a barrel may subside over the coming months as rising crude supply from unexpected corners of the world finally comes on stream, just as the global economic downturn begins to bite.

The forces behind the meteoric price rise this spring are slowly receding. Nigeria has boosted output by 200,000 barrels a day (BPD) this month, making up most of the shortfall caused by rebel attacks on pipelines in April.
Why oil could soon come barrelling down
Keep the motors running: increased oil production from countries such as Brazil, Sudan and Azerbaijan is helping satisfy rising global demand for the fossil fuel

The Geneva consultancy PetroLogistics says Iraq has added 300,000 bpd to a total of 2.57m as security is beefed up in the northern Kirkuk region.

"There is a strong rebound in supply," said the group's president Conrad Gerber.

Saudi Arabia is adding 300,000 bpd to the market in response to a personal plea from President George Bush, and to placate angry Democrats on Capitol Hill - even though Riyadh insists that there are abundant supplies for sale.

Non-OPEC oil production growth

Like the rest of Opec, the Saudis blame "speculators" for running amok, pushing paper contracts into the stratosphere.

The ever-diminishing reserves of oil in the earth's crust will doubtless drive crude prices to much higher levels over time - provided no new technology such as nuclear fusion abruptly changes the picture - but that will not stop cyclical ups and downs along the way.

The world's finely balanced market for crude has been creeping into surplus for several weeks. Opec's monthly report says that demand this quarter will average 85.75m bpd. Supply was 86.8m bpd in April. The fresh output from Nigeria, Iraq and Saudi Arabia may push it significantly further into surplus.

The signs are already surfacing in global inventories. Opec says that stocks held by the OECD club of rich countries are above their five-year average, with "comfortable" cover for 53 days' use. US stocks have edged up for the last four months, though they fell last week.
advertisement
# Oil surge may trigger truly open skies
# Read more Ambrose Evans-Pritchard

While it is widely reported that output from the non-Opec trio of Norway, Britain, and Mexico has relentlessly fallen, it is less well known that a clutch of other countries are gradually filling the breach.

The US Energy Information Agency says non-Opec supply will edge up by 600,000 bpd over coming months as Brazil, Azerbaijan and the Sudan raise production. By next year, the US itself will be producing enough extra oil to shave its import needs.

OPEC surplus crude oil production

None of this has been enough to curb the buying frenzy this spring. Goldman Sachs has warned that prices could reach $200 in a final spike, and even the bears at Lehman Brothers say there may be enough momentum to keep the boom going until Christmas.

It is unclear whether hedge funds and investors piling into futures contracts have now become the driving force in a speculative bubble. The Bank of England said yesterday that they were not a factor.

Lehman's latest report - Is it a Bubble? - says commodity index funds have exploded from $70bn (£36bn) to $235bn since early 2006. This includes $90bn of fresh money. Energy takes the lion's share. Every $100m flow of investment money into oil lifts crude prices by 1.6pc, it said.

"We see many of the ingredients for a classic asset bubble," said Edward Morse, Lehman's oil expert.

This week has seen a dramatic surge in oil contracts dated as far forward as 2016. Futures have moved higher than the spot price, a rare event known as "contango". This can cut both ways: either as a sign of an impending supply crunch years hence; or that the futures market has become unhinged from reality.

What we know is that the International Monetary Fund has cut its forecast for world growth for 2008 three times since last autumn to 3.7pc, and the United Nations is predicting just 1.8pc - technically, a global recession. The major oil forecasters have halved their estimates for crude demand growth to 1.2m bpd.

The bulls say that the US housing crash and spreading contagion in Britain, Spain and Japan do not matter much for oil in the changed world of rising Asia.

The US added just 7pc of crude demand growth from 2004 to 2007, compared with 34pc for China, 25pc for the Middle East and 17pc for emerging Asia.

Goldman Sachs argues that fuel prices in most of these countries are held down by state controls, insulating demand from the effect of any global downturn.

But this could change. Egypt - the most populous Arab country - has just raised petrol prices by 40pc. Rumours swept China yesterday that Beijing was preparing to lift fuel prices. While the Chinese government is unlikely to risk protests in the lead up to the Olympics, the jitters are a reminder that Asian states will have to take action sooner or later to wean their societies from subsidies.
# Warning over volatile oil prices
# Saudi-US oil axis is key

Almost all emerging nations have to slam on the brakes in coming months to curb inflation before it starts spiralling out of control. Inflation has hit 30pc in Ukraine, 22pc in Vietnam, 8.5pc in China, and double digits across most of the Gulf.

The countries that account for the most of the growth in oil demand over the last two years are almost all nearing the limits of easy economic growth. Read

Keep up with all the latest sector news on our dedicated webpage

Have your say

Information appearing on telegraph.co.uk is the copyright of Telegraph Media Group Limited and must not be reproduced in any medium without licence. For the full copyright statement see Copyright

====================================

Now I am wondering, if they do go down, how Congress is
going to spin this into how they caused the price to drop
with their stupid actions. And there is no need to do any
drilling of developing our own resources.

[boutons_]

European industry and citizens adapted to $5+ gas 10-15+ years ago and now $8 gas. Life is good in Europe, arguably better than in USA for many Europeans. Note that Europeans make up very few of legal or illagal immigrants.

Their govts had the foresight and intelligence and leadership to force down demand for imported oil by taxes to minimize shipping their national wealth overseas.

The USA is pretty much fucked (again) now, burning into thin air many $100Bs on useless, unending wars, and enslaved into shipping many $100Bs to foreign oil suppliers.

The USA adapted to the '67, '73, '79 oil crises, but without the Euro-style tax on gas/diesel holding the prices high, regressed when the price went low.

Now the US is fucked with millions of low-mileage vehicles and houses located too damn far from workplaces, and no effective public transport, esp in the southern latititudes, and millions of houses and cities where Americans consider life w/o a/c not worth living.

The US will adjust to the $100+ oil but it will be very painful and slow.

Badly run, "free market"/unregulated companies like most of the airlines have and will continue to fail. If you think air travel has sucked for passengers since deregulaton, you ain't seen nothing, yet.

I expect NO effective leadership on the imported oil crisis from federal govt, no matter who gets elected. Individuals and companies will adjust, slowly, painfully.

$120/tank gasoline, $4 x 30 gal, is already in California. Will surely spread everywhere. The sooner, the better, so people demand will go down.

[Don Quixote]

A good saying, worthy of all acceptance:

If you don't like where you are ... MOVE!

[Wild Cobra]

Independent trucking is already toast.
Now I'm no expert here, but how I understand it is this is true unless some regulations are put in place. Many, if not most independents generally rely on services to get them work. Theses services are charging the customers fuel surcharges and not passing it on to the truckers, and the customers contracting the shipping don't even know that!

Make the surcharge payable only to the truckers, and the independents can stay competitive.

As for the costs... The added costs top the products are minimal. I've seen the math but cannot repeat it. That the weigh or item count shipped, and add the difference if fuel cost for the distance, and it really isn't as great as people assume. Doubling fuel costs do not double the shipping cost. That is just one factor besides insurances, truckers salary, etc.

[PixelPusher]

another solar innovation


IBM solar cell trick brings future of green tech into focus (http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080522-ibm-solar-cell-trick-brings-future-of-green-tech-into-focus.html)

By John Timmer | Published: May 22, 2008 - 06:45PM CT

Last week, IBM announced a new approach to lowering the cost of solar power. Though it's a long way from commercialization, the technique is worth taking a close look at because it exploits some of the technology that IBM has developed for cooling CPUs in order to improve solar cell efficiency. IBM's research in this area also fits within the context of wider industry "green technology" efforts, efforts that are already having a real impact in the datacenter.
Squeezing more power out of a solar cell

Photovoltaic technology, which converts light directly into electric current, has been around in one form or another for decades. So far, it has been limited to niche markets for a single reason: photovoltaic cells are expensive because they are generally made via the same high-quality silicon manufacturing processes that produce computer chips. Solar cell makers have tried to overcome this limitation in a variety of way; some look to alternate materials, while others try to boost the efficiency of energy conversion so that a single chip produces more power.

The new work from IBM is a rather interesting variation on this latter option. Instead of boosting the efficiency of the photovoltaic cell itself, the technique, called concentrator photovoltaics, simply focuses more sunlight onto the chip. With more incoming energy, any photovoltaic, regardless of its efficiency, will produce more power. This technology is already in use commercially, but it's limited by the fact that concentrating too much light will raise the temperature of photovoltaic devices to the point where the equipment starts getting damaged.

The new IBM construct focuses approximately 230 watts/cm2 onto a photovoltaic cell, which is the equivalent of 2300 times the intensity of unfiltered sunlight. That's enough to raise standard equipment to 1600°C and precipitate a meltdown. But the team involved in this research crafted their solar cell using technology intended to help cool processors, thereby allowing it to efficiently transport heat away from the photovoltaic cell and keeping it at a perfectly functional 85°C.

IBM uses a liquid metal cooling system based on gallium and indium for efficiently transferring heat away from the photovoltaics an to a standard metal heat sink. The result is a system that can operate at a light intensity that's roughly five times higher than any concentrator photovoltaic system currently in use. The system is a long way from escaping the lab, but it may get a boost if similar cooling systems become mainstream through their use in processors.
The greening of the data center

This is hardly the first time that IBM has demonstrated an interest in solar technology; last October, the company announced it had found a way to allow the use of scrap silicon wafers in the manufacturing of photovoltaic devices. Solar is hardly the only "green tech" area that they're looking at, either, as the press release for the new concentrator technology proudly proclaimed IBM's interest in, "energy efficient technology and services, carbon management, advanced water management, intelligent utility networks and intelligent transportation systems."

This emphasis on sustainable development is becoming widespread within the high-tech community. Google has gone solar at its own facilities while also investing in solar thermal power companies that are aiming for the general grid. A consortium of manufacturers is also working towards producing a climate-saving PC. In short, green is the new color of high-tech.

It's easy to dismiss these green trends as attempts to capitalize on to a feel-good wave of environmentalism for marketing purposes, and there probably is an element of that in some of these efforts. But they can just as easily be explained as a response to a new economic reality, one in which energy costs continue to rise and become a major contributor to the total cost of ownership of IT equipment.

That reality makes green technology appealing for both IT users and manufacturers in two ways. First, energy-efficient equipment becomes a necessity, as it allows users to continue to add computing capacity and manufacturers to both sell the new capacity and to replace the old tech with more efficient products. Second, renewable power sources become more appealing for everyone involved as economies of scale drive down their costs relative to fossil fuels. Given this equation, it's no surprise that so many companies are now jumping on the green bandwagon.

[boutons_]

"If you don't like where you are ... MOVE"

the old "love or leave it" bullshit.

the old "if you aren't with us, you're a terrorist"

DQ, you're one stupid, naive fuck

Europe was smarter, starting a long time ago, made sure there was no mirage of "cheap oil".

The USA was stupid, childish, gutless, leaderless, maintaining the mirage of cheap oil to go forever.

Guess who's fucked and going to suffer the most now? Unlike you to me, I say you are welcome to stay and "love" it.

Do you have any facts to counter with, or just dubya-style mindless slogans, and Repug slime?Just anything coherent would do.go ahead, make my day, punk

[BacktoBasics]

"If you don't like where you are ... MOVE"

the old "love or leave it" bullshit.

the old "if you aren't with us, you're a terrorist"

DQ, you're one stupid, naive fuck

Europe was smarter, starting a long time ago, made sure there was no mirage of "cheap oil".

The USA was stupid, childish, gutless, leaderless, maintaining the mirage of cheap oil to go forever.

Guess who's fucked and going to suffer the most now? Unlike you to me, I say you are welcome to stay and "love" it.

Do you have any facts to counter with, or just dubya-style mindless slogans, and Repug slime?Just anything coherent would do.go ahead, make my day, punk1 out of about 12,439 posts you make I completely disagree with you and for the most part I think you're a full blown moron but I agree with this statement above.

[boutons_]

B2B, go fuck blind-squirrel self.

[BacktoBasics]

B2B, go fuck blind-squirrel self.That didn't make a whole lot of sense. I said I agreed with you....jeez.

[boutons_]

understandable, dumbfucks don't got no sense.

The metaphor (look it up).

Like a blind squirrel finding a nut, you agree with one of my posts, dumbfuck.

[boutons_]

Solar-voltaic has the huge disadvantage of supplying energy only during sunlight hours, no large-scale, efficient storage system being available for electrical energy. That's why electrical plants are over-built well beyond average demand, to meet capacity in peak hours.

Same for wind-, tide- and any electrical energy.

Solar-thermal has the huge advantage of being able to store the thermal energy in reservoirs for release in non-sunlight hours.

These "natural" energy sources aren't mutually exclusive, but complementary. We'll need them all.

We DON'T need or want Dirty Coal, there being no such thing as Clean Coal outside of BigCoal's marketing lies.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

B2B, go fuck blind-squirrel self.

He said he agreed with you on that post, you dumbass. :lol

Fucking spoiled brat...

[Don Quixote]

Well, if you'll permit some blind naive Bush-bot (I guess that's what you think I am) to give you some friendly advice ...

Leave! Go to Europe, or wherever you think the world is better. You'll be much happier, away from the slimy Repugs and evangelicals. Go to Europe and enjoy the mass transit and $6 bread! And you'll find lots of people who I guess will agree with you about how America is screwed up and all.

Go! Go, young man! You'll be happy for once.

[Don Quixote]

[I]Just anything coherent would do.go ahead, make my day, punk

Wow. Boutons asking someone for a coherent argument. Let that one sink in for a minute. :lol

That's like Michael Jackson calling you crazy.

This is why I love Boutons. He's probably my favorite liberal on this board, as a matter of fact. I find the raging, semi-intelligible ball of feminine anger endearing. I hope, however, for the good of whatever neighborhood or mental hospital in which he resides, that they don't let him around other people. That is, if in "real life" he's anything like he is on the internet.

[boutons_]

"Leave! Go to Europe,"

What's the matter, dumbfuck DQ?
Can't take take the heat from my anti-dubya, anti-Repug blow-torch?

aggie, you've surpassed yourself in reading incomprehension, it's probably your knee jerking into your face.

Let me draw you a (verbal) picture, or more appropriately a cartoon, you child:

I was referring to the the 12K nuts of boutons wisdom the blind asshole didn't agree with, not the one he did agree with.

[Don Quixote]

There's no point in arguing with you. I actually value your, um, insights. You're the guy who actually types out what I suspect most liberals think, but don't want to say. It gives me a good gauge of how they're, um, thinking.

And, if you're really this torked off all the time, at dubya (whom you're obsessed with), at America, at gubmint, at all things conservative, then leave! It'll be good for you. You'll be happier, less angry, less likely to drop dead of a heart attack after getting mad at something inconsequential.

Leave, I say, young man! Leave and go to the place where they have it all figured out -- Europe! It's much, much better there. You'll be happy.

At this point, all there is left to say is, are you for real? Are you really like this? Or is it just an act?

[BacktoBasics]

boutons needs some of that European government funded prozac. I love how the answer to everyone and everything with this guy is an arguement about stupidity rather than an arguement about the initial point. Excellent work and nice deferment slimy salesman Boutons.

[Don Quixote]

My theory is that the character known as "boutons" is actually the alter ego of a smart conservative. This righty just imagines the biggest, most angry, hate-filled, uninformed but absolutely certain about his opinions, douche-bag version of a liberal and ... voila ... Boutons!

He can't be for real. Can he?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Well, if you'll permit some blind naive Bush-bot (I guess that's what you think I am) to give you some friendly advice ...

Leave! Go to Europe, or wherever you think the world is better. You'll be much happier, away from the slimy Repugs and evangelicals. Go to Europe and enjoy the mass transit and $6 bread! And you'll find lots of people who I guess will agree with you about how America is screwed up and all.

Go! Go, young man! You'll be happy for once.

Not to mention when countries over there start falling to Muslim majorities and he's forced to either convert to Islam or get his head chopped off. I'm sure boutons will be begging to come back to America then.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

"Leave! Go to Europe,"

What's the matter, dumbfuck DQ?
Can't take take the heat from my anti-dubya, anti-Repug blow-torch?

aggie, you've surpassed yourself in reading incomprehension, it's probably your knee jerking into your face.

Let me draw you a (verbal) picture, or more appropriately a cartoon, you child:

I was referring to the the 12K nuts of boutons wisdom the blind asshole didn't agree with, not the one he did agree with.

What's the big deal? He was right on both accounts.

[Don Quixote]

Not to mention when countries over there start falling to Muslim majorities and he's forced to either convert to Islam or get his head chopped off. I'm sure boutons will be begging to come back to America then.

It's only a matter of time before parts of western Europe fall to Islam. I can give a variety of reasons for this, but much of it revolves around the lack of a coherent central ethic, a viable system of belief that gives value to a man -- none that matches Islam anyway. In other words, Europe will fall because Islam is more powerful than Christianity there.

They might force boutons to convert, but generally Islamic countries allow subject people to practice their own religion. The subjugated people generally convert eventually because of social or economic pressure.

Yeah ... I'm sure he'll think Europe sucks too. Everything sucks. Nothing's good.

[Extra Stout]

They might force boutons to convert, but generally Islamic countries allow subject people to practice their own religion. The subjugated people generally convert eventually because of social or economic pressure.
Jews and Christians are allowed to practice, with restrictions. Others must convert or be executed.

[xrayzebra]

Well, well. Looks like the folks in the United Kingdom have a plan for all of it's citizens. I know Obama and the rest of the Liberal dimm-o-craps cant be far behind in wanting us to have our little ration cards.


Every adult in Britain should be forced to carry 'carbon ration cards', say MPs

By David Derbyshire
Last updated at 1:08 AM on 27th May 2008




Every adult should be forced to use a 'carbon ration card' when they pay for petrol, airline tickets or household energy, MPs say.

The influential Environmental Audit Committee says a personal carbon trading scheme is the best and fairest way of cutting Britain's CO2 emissions without penalising the poor.

Under the scheme, everyone would be given an annual carbon allowance to use when buying oil, gas, electricity and flights.
Petrol

Filling up: Motorists would need a carbon card at the pumps


Anyone who exceeds their entitlement would have to buy top-up credits from individuals who haven't used up their allowance. The amount paid would be driven by market forces and the deal done through a specialist company.

MPs, led by Tory Tim Yeo, say the scheme could be more effective at cutting greenhouse gas emissions than green taxes.

But critics say the idea is costly, bureaucratic, intrusive and unworkable.

The Government says it supports the scheme in principle, but warns it is 'ahead of its time'.

The idea of personal carbon trading is increasingly being promoted by environmentalists. In theory it could be used to cover all purchases - from petrol to food.

For the scheme to work, the Government would need to give out 45million carbon cards - each one linked to a personal carbon account. Every year, the account would be credited with a notional amount of CO2 in kilograms.

Every time someone makes a purchase of petrol, energy or airline tickets, they would use up credits. A return flight from London to Rome would, for instance, use up 900kg of CO2 credits, while 10 litres of petrol would use up 23kg.
Enlarge Tim Yeo

MP Tim Yeo MP, says the scheme could be more effective at cutting Britain's greenhouse gas emissions

Mr Yeo, chairman of the committee said personal carbon trading rewarded those with a low carbon footprint with cash.

'We found that personal carbon trading has real potential to engage the population in the fight against climate change and to achieve significant emissions reductions in a progressive way,' he said.

'The idea is a radical one. As such it inevitably faces some significant challenges in its development. It is important to meet these challenges.

'What we are asking the Government to do is to seize the reins on this, leading the debate and coordinating research.'

The Government is committed to cutting CO2 emissions to 20 per cent below 1990 levels by 2010.

The Climate Change Bill going through Parliament aims to cut emissions by 60 per cent by 2050. The Government has said it backs the idea in principle, but it is currently too expensive and bureaucratic.

Environment Minister Hilary Benn said: 'It's got potential but, in essence, it's ahead of its time. There are a lot of practical problems to overcome.'

A Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs report into the scheme found it would cost between £700million and £2billion to set up and up to another £2billion a year to run.

Tory environment spokesman Peter Ainsworth added: 'Although it does have potential we should proceed with care. We don't want to alienate people and we want everyone to be on board.'

But critics say the idea is deeply flawed. The scheme would penalise those living in the countryside who were dependent on their cars, as well as the elderly or housebound who need to heat their homes in the day.

Large families would suffer, as would those working at nights when little public transport is available.

It would need to take into account the size of families, and their ages. There is huge potential for fraud.

Matthew Elliott of the Taxpayers' Alliance said the cards would be hugely unpopular. 'The Government has shown itself incapable of managing any huge, complex IT system.' he said.
HOW THE SCHEME WOULD WORK

Every adult in the UK would be given an annual carbon dioxide allowance in kgs and a special carbon card.

The scheme would cover road fuel, flights and energy bills.

Every time someone paid for road fuel, flights or energy, their carbon account would be docked.

A litre of petrol would use up 2.3kg in carbon, while every 1.3 miles of airline flight would use another 1kg.

When paying for petrol, the card would need to swiped at the till. It would be a legal offence to buy petrol without using a card.

When paying online, or by direct debit, the carbon account would be debited directly.

Anyone who doesn't use up their credits in a year can sell them to someone who wants more credits. Trading would be done through specialist companies.

[Spurminator]

Back to the original topic... How about Orlando, FL?

[xrayzebra]

Back to the original topic... How about Orlando, FL?

How bout Orlando, FL?

[RandomGuy]

Well, if you'll permit some blind naive Bush-bot (I guess that's what you think I am) to give you some friendly advice ...

Leave! Go to Europe, or wherever you think the world is better. You'll be much happier, away from the slimy Repugs and evangelicals. Go to Europe and enjoy the mass transit and $6 bread! And you'll find lots of people who I guess will agree with you about how America is screwed up and all.

Go! Go, young man! You'll be happy for once.

Well, Europe has a few things going for it if you are of working age.

If current exchange rates stabilize for the long term, a distinct possibility, that means that in the last few years, relative to the US, salaries have doubled.

Since Europe has already made gas prices artificially high, their economies are already at the point where they can absorb oil price hikes a helluva lot better than we can.

If gas is at $10/gallon and then goes up by a dollar/gallon, that price spike doesn't have as much impact as gas at $3/gallon going to $4.

Since oil is also priced in dollars, and at the same time that oil is going up for us, the dollar has been declining against the Euro, oil has actually not gotten nearly as expensive for Europeans as it has for us.

Given that European cities have a well-developed mass transit system, and it is possible to live there quite comfortably without a car 99% of the time, oil prices don't have near the effect on standards of living as they do in the US.

If the dollar stays low or falls further, and oil starts to get more expensive, there may come a point where you will see highly-skilled Americans pack it up and start looking for jobs in Europe, where most countries have negative birth rates, and would be rather happy with highly skilled American immigrants.

In the "expensive oil game", bad ol' socialist-green Europe will find itself a couple of steps ahead of the US, much to many US conservatives' chagrin.

[Wild Cobra]

I heard on the radio yesterday that some study (forget who/study name) claims we will see oil at $70 to $85 per bbl by sometime next year. This is suppose to be due to more oil coming on-line. Now I am skeptical of this myself as demand continue to rise and the dollar is still dropping, but maybe it will happen? I think we will see gas around $5.00 per gallon next year myself.

[Don Quixote]

Okay, perhaps you are right. I would say, though, that the answer to the problem would be to develop our domestic oil industry (open up ANWAR, cont. shelf) and add to our supply, and let the sheiks and unfriendly nations sell to other nations instead. Why let other countries control what is a vital aspect of our economy?

I wasn't really focusing on oil though -- man-child's complaints about America run much deeper than just our oil and monetary policy. He hates America so much? Then he can leave! He'll be much happier somewhere else, and live a longer healthier life not carrying around all the anger.

[RandomGuy]

Jews and Christians are allowed to practice, with restrictions. Others must convert or be executed.

How does that explain the Zaroastrian minority in Iran?

They are neither muslim, jewish, or christian.

[Don Quixote]

Yes, Islam in Iran also allows Zoroastrians to practice, since they are monotheistic. That religion also predates Islam. But minority religions don't have what we'd call religious freedom --they typically have to pay a tax, generally cannot vote or hold public office, and are barred from certain occupations. To Islam, though, this is religious freedom -- we're letting them practice their religion, aren't we??

[RandomGuy]

Yes, Islam in Iran also allows Zoroastrians to practice, since they are monotheistic. That religion also predates Islam. But minority religions don't have what we'd call religious freedom --they typically have to pay a tax, generally cannot vote or hold public office, and are barred from certain occupations. To Islam, though, this is religious freedom -- we're letting them practice their religion, aren't we??

Right on all counts. I actually met an Iranian Zoroastrian in one of my classes. She was a pretty interesting person to talk to.

About Islam and religious freedom, I don't know if that is a function specific to Islam, or just a function of overall religious fundamentalism. If the first amendment were removed and US Christian fundamentalists had power in a manner similar to Iran, you can bet that many of the same restrictions on non-christian sects and even some christian ones would be enacted.

I always find it spooky/creepy/scary when you hear people like Pat Robertson et al. talk about the evils of "secularism" in the West, and then read muslim fundamentalists saying, almost word for word, the exact same thing.

Now that we are waaaaay off topic, in true Spurstalk tradition...

[RandomGuy]

In the "expensive oil game", bad ol' socialist-green Europe will find itself a couple of steps ahead of the US, much to many US conservatives' chagrin.

I also wonder what recent exchange rates are doing to the "but the average person in the US is better off than in Europe" gambit.

That whole conservative shpiel was predicated on American incomes being higher than those in Europe. Since exchange rates not only take that away, but actively reverse it, then the "socialist" economic system of Europe will, by the same logic, prove better able to provide decent standards of living than the US.

With exchange rates for the US dollar being what they are, if I went to Europe and got a job, lived cheaply, I could start sending money home to my family here in the US in much the same way that Mexican immigrants do when they come here to earn money.

Wouldn't THAT be ironic?

[RandomGuy]

I say all that, but, as an accountant, I know that the important thing is always the bottom line.

It isn't how much you make, but rather how much you keep. This is what I am sure the knee-jerk conservareaction will be: "them damn Europee-ins will tax you to death, and you won't make nearly as much money as you think you will."

From what I understand about overall tax burdens in Western Europe, when you sum up ALL US taxes, not just Federal, but state and local, the tax burden on income is pretty fairly close to what it is overall in Europe. They are just a lot more upfront about it. The federal governments tax the snot out of you upfront, then distribute the money to the states/provinces and cities, whereas the US federal taxes are paid for here, then you dribbed and drabbed by various levels of state, county, and municipal governments.

I wish I could remember where I read that, but it was probably in one of my economics or finance classes.

Maybe I am wrong about this, but I am fairly sure the levels are pretty similar.

[Don Quixote]

Right on all counts. I actually met an Iranian Zoroastrian in one of my classes. She was a pretty interesting person to talk to.

About Islam and religious freedom, I don't know if that is a function specific to Islam, or just a function of overall religious fundamentalism. If the first amendment were removed and US Christian fundamentalists had power in a manner similar to Iran, you can bet that many of the same restrictions on non-christian sects and even some christian ones would be enacted.

I always find it spooky/creepy/scary when you hear people like Pat Robertson et al. talk about the evils of "secularism" in the West, and then read muslim fundamentalists saying, almost word for word, the exact same thing.



Good observations. Well ... remember that Islam is essentially as much a political system as it is a religion. It is impossible for Islam NOT to control the government and not be compromised. Christianity, on the other hand, while it went through a period where it was tied into the state, it has yet always had some sense of the separation of politics and faith (at least some). And I would argue that a state-run church and compulsory religion actually corrupts the church.

Second, I have found that most Christians in fundamentalist are fine with the separation of church and state. They may sometimes confuse the two institutions, and a few get into Christian dominionism (which argues that it's the church's role to take over the govt), but most of them basically agree with separation. And while if, say, they were to get in power, we might see some minor changes toward re-instituting school prayer and such, they would never attempt to run the country like Islam runs Islamic countries, for they know full well that, again, compelled religion corrupts the church.

[xrayzebra]

I say all that, but, as an accountant, I know that the important thing is always the bottom line.

It isn't how much you make, but rather how much you keep. This is what I am sure the knee-jerk conservareaction will be: "them damn Europee-ins will tax you to death, and you won't make nearly as much money as you think you will."

From what I understand about overall tax burdens in Western Europe, when you sum up ALL US taxes, not just Federal, but state and local, the tax burden on income is pretty fairly close to what it is overall in Europe. They are just a lot more upfront about it. The federal governments tax the snot out of you upfront, then distribute the money to the states/provinces and cities, whereas the US federal taxes are paid for here, then you dribbed and drabbed by various levels of state, county, and municipal governments.

I wish I could remember where I read that, but it was probably in one of my economics or finance classes.

Maybe I am wrong about this, but I am fairly sure the levels are pretty similar.


Cant speak for all of Europe, but the UK has an income
tax and also the VAT. (Value added tax). The VAT is
20 percent at every stage from supplier of raw material,
manufacturing, wholesale and retail. So it can add up.

Many here in the USA want us to do they same with
the VAT.

[Extra Stout]

About Islam and religious freedom, I don't know if that is a function specific to Islam, or just a function of overall religious fundamentalism. If the first amendment were removed and US Christian fundamentalists had power in a manner similar to Iran, you can bet that many of the same restrictions on non-christian sects and even some christian ones would be enacted.
That statement can be validated provisionally. While most Christian fundamentalists would not be interested in a monopoly on power, the ones who would, namely the Dominionists, indeed would severely curtail the religious freedom of others. I probably would be executed by them as a heretic.