Really...Ginobili is a Liability

[Deuces88]

Ginobili is basically a scorer and a turnover machine. If he's not producing offensively, that just leaves turnover machine. What the hell is he good for? This is like Boston's Big Three turning into the Big Two Plus Ray Allen. Same here. The Big Two Plus Ginobili.

Seriously, I am more inclined to put Bowen in the Big Three. Bowen is reliable on defense and he can make the open 3. Ginobili, on the other hand, isn't a presence on defense, so we have to depend on his offense. He's a poor ball handler so he turns the ball over every other possession. Now, he can slash, but if he's not producing, he's a total liability. The worse part is, he keeps shooting and shooting poor shots even when he's off. Then the few times he does pass, he passes to f*cking Jacque Vaughn?

Duncan and Parker should leave the court in protest because no one else is making an effort for the team. Horry continues to shoot and shoot and continues to toss up the ugliest bricks I've ever seen.

I don't get Popovich. What you do in game 1 for quarter 1-3 was working. It was the last quarter you messed up (thank you, Manu), so why change? What is this giving Horry and Vaughn so many minutes when they suck SO BAD!

Keys to Victory:
-Duncan is there. Run offense THROUGH him.
-Limit Vaughn and Horry's minutes to 5 minutes each.
-Threaten to cut off Oberto's balls next time he wants to miss layups
-Threaten Tony's beard if he even thinks about settling for jumpers
-Start Finley to get Finley going early
-Pull Manu if he has a bad shooting night. Keeping him in when he's missing will only increase the turnovers
-Where the hell was Thomas? Is he sick or something?
-Bowen is hitting his 3's. WHY IS HORRY GETTING MORE SHOTS THAN HIM?

Seriously, we should clone Parker 4x, Duncan 4x and Bowen 1x. Have a starting lineup of Parker, Parker, Bowen, Duncan, Duncan. Then have a bench of Bowen, Parker, Parker, Parker, Duncan, Duncan, and Duncan.

I overlooked Ginobili's play in the past because he scored when necessary, but then I realized. Those 3's he made were necessary because he turned the ball over so many damn times, of course the opposing team would pull ahead of us in points.

[Spurs3000]

Seriously, I am more inclined to put Bowen in the Big Three.

... and that's where I stopped reading. :rolleyes

[Cherry]

:rolleyes

[v2freak]

... and that's where I stopped reading. :rolleyes

Well, Bowen doesn't get enough credit.

[ducks]

manu was not in the 3 yes in first half
was his ankle that bad or was he just being not aggressive

[Emanuel20]

Ginobili is basically a scorer and a turnover machine. If he's not producing offensively, that just leaves turnover machine. What the hell is he good for? This is like Boston's Big Three turning into the Big Two Plus Ray Allen. Same here. The Big Two Plus Ginobili.

Seriously, I am more inclined to put Bowen in the Big Three. Bowen is reliable on defense and he can make the open 3. Ginobili, on the other hand, isn't a presence on defense, so we have to depend on his offense. He's a poor ball handler so he turns the ball over every other possession. Now, he can slash, but if he's not producing, he's a total liability. The worse part is, he keeps shooting and shooting poor shots even when he's off. Then the few times he does pass, he passes to f*cking Jacque Vaughn?

Duncan and Parker should leave the court in protest because no one else is making an effort for the team. Horry continues to shoot and shoot and continues to toss up the ugliest bricks I've ever seen.

I don't get Popovich. What you do in game 1 for quarter 1-3 was working. It was the last quarter you messed up (thank you, Manu), so why change? What is this giving Horry and Vaughn so many minutes when they suck SO BAD!

Keys to Victory:
-Duncan is there. Run offense THROUGH him.
-Limit Vaughn and Horry's minutes to 5 minutes each.
-Threaten to cut off Oberto's balls next time he wants to miss layups
-Threaten Tony's beard if he even thinks about settling for jumpers
-Start Finley to get Finley going early
-Pull Manu if he has a bad shooting night. Keeping him in when he's missing will only increase the turnovers
-Where the hell was Thomas? Is he sick or something?
-Bowen is hitting his 3's. WHY IS HORRY GETTING MORE SHOTS THAN HIM?

Seriously, we should clone Parker 4x, Duncan 4x and Bowen 1x. Have a starting lineup of Parker, Parker, Bowen, Duncan, Duncan. Then have a bench of Bowen, Parker, Parker, Parker, Duncan, Duncan, and Duncan.

I overlooked Ginobili's play in the past because he scored when necessary, but then I realized. Those 3's he made were necessary because he turned the ball over so many damn times, of course the opposing team would pull ahead of us in points.

Stupid but everyone is entitled to opinions and I guess that's why you are here and not next to Pop or in the place of Pop.

[ElNono]

Unlike Gay Allen, Manu won us at least one championship.

That's what sucks about fairweather fans like you. You have a short memory.
You weren't complaining when Manu was carrying us during the regular season.

Manu is just injured and tired, and it shows. This guy was dunking over Diop 5 months ago. Now he has no lift whatsoever.

The reality is that if he can't feel better for the next game, we are done.

[E20]

Ginobili really needs to shave. If he shaves, then there is hope just yet.

[Emanuel20]

Ginobili really needs to shave. If he shaves, then there is hope just yet.

That's what i said. With that hear and hairy face, he reminds of Manu during the kings series.

[Deuces88]

... and that's where I stopped reading. :rolleyes

I can make a case right now:

Ginobili:
PROS: Can slash and score. Occasionally has a good 3-point shooting night
CONS: Turnover machine. Bad shot selection. Doesn't realize when he's having a bad shooting night. Defensive liability.

Bowen:
PROS: Can make the corner 3. Excellent on defense.
CONS: Not very reliable on offense.

Bowen isn't reliable on offense, but he's far from being an offensive liability. I heard the Laker crowd moan when Bowen gets open 3's in the corner (even before Bowen shoots), because they know it's going in.

Ginobili on the other hand, is completely a defensive liability and an offensive liability when he doesn't score near 20. He doesn't realize when he has an off-night and will just keep shooting and wasting possessions.

[SRJ]

I only agreed with your first point. Ginobili is shot right now and thus he is a serious liability right now. As to the rest of your suggestions:


Keys to Victory:
-Duncan is there. Run offense THROUGH him.

I agree, but Phil will go 2002 on Tim if we go Tim-heavy. That means that once the Lakers start bringing 4th quarter doubles, we'll need the open shooters to knock 'em down; problem is, all of our shooters have dead legs.


-Limit Vaughn and Horry's minutes to 5 minutes each.

Vaughn? Sure. Horry's doing a pretty good job defensively on Odom, so keep him out there. He's our best defensive option against LO.


-Threaten to cut off Oberto's balls next time he wants to miss layups

Castration tends to get coaches fired.


-Threaten Tony's beard if he even thinks about settling for jumpers

Credit to the Lakers D - they're doing a great job when Tony penetrates. Even when Tony gets his layups, he's had three or four pop out on him.


-Start Finley to get Finley going early

He did. Finley didn't. Of course, no player gets more feedback according to result than Finley; If he's hitting, playing Finley was a key move. If Finley's missing, playing Finley was costly. He's the Spurs leader in hindsight by Coach La-Z-Boy.


-Pull Manu if he has a bad shooting night. Keeping him in when he's missing will only increase the turnovers

Again, I agree with this. I wouldn't mind seeing Manu's minutes cut drastically with the understanding that the reduction in minutes means Manu has got to go balls to the wall. Fifteen hard minutes from this version of Manu >>>>>>> thirty-five dead-legged minutes.


-Where the hell was Thomas? Is he sick or something?

The Laker bigs are mobile and Thomas is even more stationary than Fab. He's not right for this matchup.


-Bowen is hitting his 3's. WHY IS HORRY GETTING MORE SHOTS THAN HIM?

How is Bowen supposed to get shots when his shots depend on the rest of the offense picking up their slack? Bowen is great when the Big Three have it going and the defense forgets about him. But if you intend to get more shots for Bowen it's not going to work very well.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

the big three is a fucking myth, you look up spurstalk.com forum history, there were always people who gave bowen props

look at someone like me who has scoffed bowen less times than i can count on one finger, and has thrown ginobili off teh bus more times than i can remember


the guy is finished
and pop is sadly exposing him by putting him in a position to fail...if you play brent barry EVERY minute ginobili gets this series thus far, we lose by a closer margin.

[Emanuel20]

I can make a case right now:

Ginobili:
PROS: Can slash and score. Occasionally has a good 3-point shooting night
CONS: Turnover machine. Bad shot selection. Doesn't realize when he's having a bad shooting night. Defensive liability.

Bowen:
PROS: Can make the corner 3. Excellent on defense.
CONS: Not very reliable on offense.

Bowen isn't reliable on offense, but he's far from being an offensive liability. I heard the Laker crowd moan when Bowen gets open 3's in the corner (even before Bowen shoots), because they know it's going in.

Ginobili on the other hand, is completely a defensive liability and an offensive liability when he doesn't score near 20. He doesn't realize when he has an off-night and will just keep shooting and wasting possessions.


I tried to ignore you but...:nope

[LakerLanny]

Bowen has impressed me. But get off Manu, he is obviously hurt and a lot of guys probably wouldn't even be playing in his position.

[Deuces88]

Unlike Gay Allen, Manu won us at least one championship.

That's what sucks about fairweather fans like you. You have a short memory.
You weren't complaining when Manu was carrying us during the regular season.

Manu is just injured and tired, and it shows. This guy was dunking over Diop 5 months ago. Now he has no lift whatsoever.

The reality is that if he can't feel better for the next game, we are done.

Carrying the team? Are you one of those fans that just look at specific plays and not the overall picture?

For the record, I'm a Duncan fan and will support the team he's on. Manu dunking on Diop has WHAT relevance? You focus on his offense when he does good but you don't look at his lack of defensive presence, his offense when he does bad, or his stupid turnovers and shot selection. This team has always been carried by Duncan or Parker in the playoffs.

You're not a real fan. Real fans see the faults of their team and try to support adjustments. Chalking it up to a bad ankle is an excuse. The ankle isn't stopping him from passing the ball or forcing him to turn the ball over or make silly shots.

[Emanuel20]

You can't give Manu 15 minutes and expect anything. He feels pressured now and needs time to settle. Belive you me that the last thing the spurs need now is forsing ginobili to do more.

[Deuces88]

Bowen has impressed me. But get off Manu, he is obviously hurt and a lot of guys probably wouldn't even be playing in his position.

A lot of superstars play with injuries. Look at Iverson and Wade. Hell even Ben Wallace once played with a f*cked up leg. That's not an excuse, especially not in Manu's case. Is his ankle telling him not to pass the ball or to pass the ball to a Laker? Is the ankle telling him to take contested 3's instead of dishing it to Duncan?

I didn't know ankles could talk.

[Deuces88]

You can't give Manu 15 minutes and expect anything. He feels pressured now and needs time to settle. Belive you me that the last thing the spurs need now is forsing ginobili to do more.

Manu would do so much better if he would just pass the ball more when he realizes his shots aren't falling. Besides the scoring, what does Manu have? If he's not scoring on a night, he's not bringing anything to the table.

[Emanuel20]

A lot of superstars play with injuries. Look at Iverson and Wade. Hell even Ben Wallace once played with a f*cked up leg. That's not an excuse, especially not in Manu's case. Is his ankle telling him not to pass the ball or to pass the ball to a Laker? Is the ankle telling him to take contested 3's instead of dishing it to Duncan?

I didn't know ankles could talk.

No, the ankle is not telling him, the ankle is dictating the turns and slips in order for the pass to be made.

[Spurminator]

Manu Ginobili is injured in several places and this is how you mother fuckers thank him for getting you three Championships?

Fuck you.

[SRJ]

You can't give Manu 15 minutes and expect anything. He feels pressured now and needs time to settle.

I'm not trying to bag on Manu. I love the guy and I feel for him since he clearly doesn't have much in the tank right now.

So what's the best way to use him? If you play him big minutes, his fatigue will be a bigger factor.

[SRJ]

Manu Ginobili is injured in several places and this is how you mother fuckers thank him for getting you three Championships?

Fuck you.

So the best way to thank him is to keep him on the floor as much as possible when he's practically spent? I'm confused.

[beck253]

Only worthy comment about this pile of BS:
This is the stupidest and opportunistic post I have ever read on this forum

[Cant_Be_Faded]

exactly

i know it takes a certain degree of pride, but seriously, if ginobili is playing like this and feeling like this, go up to your coach and say i cant play cuz all you did on the floor when you did play is help the other team.

right now brent barry > manu ginobili.

[Emanuel20]

I'm not trying to bag on Manu. I love the guy and I feel for him since he clearly doesn't have much in the tank right now.

So what's the best way to use him? If you play him big minutes, his fatigue will be a bigger factor.

Either you play him or not. I don't see him giving us anything in 15 minutes and who would you give his minutes ti? At least he is playing better than Finley and I don't know about Brent. I feel that you either take a chance or take him out and sit him. He looked OK in the 3rd quarter if he can sustain that ...

[Spurs3000]

Manu would do so much better if he would just pass the ball more when he realizes his shots aren't falling.

Did you even watch the game? What on earth are you talking about?

Manu was constantly passing the ball today. His passes often resulted in wide open looks, unlike, for instance, Parker's. Unfortunately the Spurs kept missing and missing and missing.

I don't want to seem like a Manu fan instead of a Spurs fan, but come on people. Manu is the most talented passer in the team.

[K-State Spur]

Manu is clearly nowhere near 100% (although he can fool you for stretches).

Vujacic is a pesky little defender, I'll grant him that.

But when Radmanovic and Peja (in the last series) can stay between Manu & the hoop, clearly he is slowed much more than he is letting him on.

Vlad on Manu should be a huge mismatch in the Spurs favor on that end of the floor and it's been worse than non-existent thus far.

[Deuces88]

Manu Ginobili is injured in several places and this is how you mother fuckers thank him for getting you three Championships?

Fuck you.

Stop saying Manu got us championships. Duncan got us 3 and did a bulk of work for the 4th (Parker having a good year for the 4th). Manu made the shots he was supposed to make and Spurs were lucky that Manu's excessive turnovers (honestly, Manu isn't a good ball handler) didn't do them in.

Manu WAS NOT the reason for those rings. Duncan and Parker are the reasons.

[Spurminator]

You didn't even watch the 2005 Finals did you?

I take it back. Nice trolling. You fooled me, for a second I thought you were actually a Spurs fan.

[SRJ]

Stop saying Manu got us championships. Duncan got us 3 and did a bulk of work for the 4th (Parker having a good year for the 4th). Manu made the shots he was supposed to make and Spurs were lucky that Manu's excessive turnovers (honestly, Manu isn't a good ball handler) didn't do them in.

Manu WAS NOT the reason for those rings. Duncan and Parker are the reasons.

Someone didn't watch the 2005 Finals.

[Spurs3000]

Manu made the shots he was supposed to make and Spurs were lucky that Manu's excessive turnovers (honestly, Manu isn't a good ball handler) didn't do them in.

:rollin

Thanks for putting a brief smile on my face, troll.

[21_Blessings]

Sasha Vujabitched Manu again tonight

[Emanuel20]

Stop saying Manu got us championships. Duncan got us 3 and did a bulk of work for the 4th (Parker having a good year for the 4th). Manu made the shots he was supposed to make and Spurs were lucky that Manu's excessive turnovers (honestly, Manu isn't a good ball handler) didn't do them in.

Manu WAS NOT the reason for those rings. Duncan and Parker are the reasons.

Wow, i don't know how many time I have to state this: Basketball is a team game and the wins and loses are based on the whole puzzle not pieces of the puzzle.

[TDMVPDPOY]

manuer.......fok this

[Spurminator]

Someone didn't watch the 2005 Finals.

Which is why my first post was directed at his takes. I'm all for scaling back Manu's minutes if he's ineffective. But show some respect.

[Don Quixote]

So we sit Ginobili. And who do we play in his place?

Finley?
Stoudamire?
Barry?

We don't have a lot of options. The bench is very, very thin.

[ElNono]

Carrying the team? Are you one of those fans that just look at specific plays and not the overall picture?

For the record, I'm a Duncan fan and will support the team he's on. Manu dunking on Diop has WHAT relevance? You focus on his offense when he does good but you don't look at his lack of defensive presence, his offense when he does bad, or his stupid turnovers and shot selection. This team has always been carried by Duncan or Parker in the playoffs.

You're not a real fan. Real fans see the faults of their team and try to support adjustments. Chalking it up to a bad ankle is an excuse. The ankle isn't stopping him from passing the ball or forcing him to turn the ball over or make silly shots.

Since you probably jump on the bandwagon since the playoffs started, let me refresh your memory. Manu was the team leading scorer when the playoff started.
When Timmy went down with an injury Manu put the team ok his back and we managed to beat Dallas and Utah back to back, with 30+ points from him. And it wasn't shooting treys. The guy was unstoppable driving to the basket.

He's both injured and out of gas right now. And please, when you drive and don't have a lift, you're forced to pass in pressure situations, which with lead to turnovers. Same thing with defense, if your ankle hurts, it's hard to turn and follow your guy.

Now we can argue wether Pop should play him or not like this, but throwing him under the bus like this without even mentioning that he's injured and fatigued, is just pure bullshit. Plus who are you going to bring in that is playing any better? Finley? Barry? Those guys camp at the 3pt line and can't create a shot to save their lives.

[ether]

Ginobili is basically a scorer and a turnover machine. If he's not producing offensively, that just leaves turnover machine. What the hell is he good for? This is like Boston's Big Three turning into the Big Two Plus Ray Allen. Same here. The Big Two Plus Ginobili.

Seriously, I am more inclined to put Bowen in the Big Three. Bowen is reliable on defense and he can make the open 3. Ginobili, on the other hand, isn't a presence on defense, so we have to depend on his offense. He's a poor ball handler so he turns the ball over every other possession. Now, he can slash, but if he's not producing, he's a total liability. The worse part is, he keeps shooting and shooting poor shots even when he's off. Then the few times he does pass, he passes to f*cking Jacque Vaughn?

Duncan and Parker should leave the court in protest because no one else is making an effort for the team. Horry continues to shoot and shoot and continues to toss up the ugliest bricks I've ever seen.

I don't get Popovich. What you do in game 1 for quarter 1-3 was working. It was the last quarter you messed up (thank you, Manu), so why change? What is this giving Horry and Vaughn so many minutes when they suck SO BAD!

Keys to Victory:
-Duncan is there. Run offense THROUGH him.
-Limit Vaughn and Horry's minutes to 5 minutes each.
-Threaten to cut off Oberto's balls next time he wants to miss layups
-Threaten Tony's beard if he even thinks about settling for jumpers
-Start Finley to get Finley going early
-Pull Manu if he has a bad shooting night. Keeping him in when he's missing will only increase the turnovers
-Where the hell was Thomas? Is he sick or something?
-Bowen is hitting his 3's. WHY IS HORRY GETTING MORE SHOTS THAN HIM?

Seriously, we should clone Parker 4x, Duncan 4x and Bowen 1x. Have a starting lineup of Parker, Parker, Bowen, Duncan, Duncan. Then have a bench of Bowen, Parker, Parker, Parker, Duncan, Duncan, and Duncan.

I overlooked Ginobili's play in the past because he scored when necessary, but then I realized. Those 3's he made were necessary because he turned the ball over so many damn times, of course the opposing team would pull ahead of us in points.

I understand what you are saying but Bruce Bowen in the BIG THREE? In a word, Please. Dude, you guys need Ginobili to start playing big to win this series . . . that's all there is to it. If he doesn't play well and you guys end up losing, then fine. He may not be a great player. But he is CLEARLY your third best player. And the thing with this series is that the Lakers are doubling Duncan far less often than the Hornets did and so the spurs are not going to be able to rely on using good ball rotation to get 25 wide open threes a game. In this series, your big 3 ((parker, duncan, and GINOBILI - not fucking bruce bowen) need to be able to put up big numbers going one on one against the Laker defense. Otherwise, you guys can't score enough to win. It's that simple.

Also, Bruce Bowen's importance is particularly limited in this series because he has to guard Kobe Bryant. He may slow him down occasionally but the reality is Kobe is going to score regardless. He's just too good. Also, some of you spur fans greatly overstate how much Bruce Bowen can really prevent Kobe Bryant from scoring. Finally, since the spurs are getting far fewer wide open threes in this series than they did in the Hornets series (Again, primarily due to the lack of Duncan double teams), he won't be as much of a factor in terms of making wide open corner threes (which he loves). So I just don't see how you can possibly claim that Bruce Bowen deserves to be considered a member of the "big three".

[K-State Spur]

So we sit Ginobili. And who do we play in his place?

Finley?
Stoudamire?
Barry?

We don't have a lot of options. The bench is very, very thin.

Good point. If any team was forced to rely on a bench player over a hobbled star, they'd be in trouble (as far as championships are concerned).

The only way the Spurs can win a title is if Manu grits through and manages to make enough plays. If he does not, then they won't win - it's that simple.

But there's no strategy which involves anybody else making up for his production and the Spurs winning the title without him contributing. That's just not remotely a realistic option.

He'll either be a major part of the victory or a big part of the defeat. I can't possibly imagine a scenario in which the Spurs win the championship and he's only playing 20 ineffective minutes/game - no matter what kind of a contribution Udoka/Finley/Barry would make in his stead.

[Deuces88]

You didn't even watch the 2005 Finals did you?

I take it back. Nice trolling. You fooled me, for a second I thought you were actually a Spurs fan.

2005 Finals

Game 1
Duncan, 24 points, 17 rebounds, 2 blocked shots, 2 assists, 3 TO
Ginobili, 26 points, 9 rebounds, 2 assists, 4 TO

Game 2
Duncan, 18 points, 11 rebounds, 4 blocked shots, 1 assist, 2 TO
Ginobili, 27 points, 3 rebounds, 7 assists, 3 TO

Game 3
Duncan, 14 points, 10 rebounds, 1 blocked shot, 4 assist, 2 TO
Ginobili, 7 points, 4 rebounds, 6 TO

Game 4
Duncan, 16 points, 16 rebounds, 3 blocked shots, 2 assist, 3 TO
Ginobili, 12 points, 4 rebounds, 1 blocked shot, 3 assist, 2 TO

Game 5
Duncan, 26 points, 19 rebounds, 2 blocked shots, 2 assist, 2 TO
Ginobili, 15 points, 6 rebounds, 9 assist, 2 TO

Game 6
Duncan, 21 points, 15 rebounds, 1 blocked shot, 1 assist
Ginobili, 21 points, 10 rebounds, 3 assist, 3 TO

Game 7
Duncan, 25 points, 11 rebounds, 2 blocked shots, 3 assist, 5 TO
Ginobili, 23 points, 5 rebounds, 4 assist, 3 TO

Ginobili: 18.7 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 4 apg, 3.3 TO
Duncan: 20.6 ppg, 14 rpg, 2 apg, 2.1 TO

Duncan scored more. Duncan had more rebounds. Although this is expected, I list it because it's a key defensive stat. Ginobili only average 2 more assists than a big man and averaged more turnovers.

Ginobili is mainly a scorer and Duncan scored more. Duncan also took care of the ball better. The lowest Duncan scored was 14. The lowest Manu scored was f*cking 7. When the hell did Manu carry this team?

[SpurOutofTownFan]

Ginobili is basically a scorer and a turnover machine. If he's not producing offensively, that just leaves turnover machine. What the hell is he good for? This is like Boston's Big Three turning into the Big Two Plus Ray Allen. Same here. The Big Two Plus Ginobili.

Seriously, I am more inclined to put Bowen in the Big Three. Bowen is reliable on defense and he can make the open 3. Ginobili, on the other hand, isn't a presence on defense, so we have to depend on his offense. He's a poor ball handler so he turns the ball over every other possession. Now, he can slash, but if he's not producing, he's a total liability. The worse part is, he keeps shooting and shooting poor shots even when he's off. Then the few times he does pass, he passes to f*cking Jacque Vaughn?

Duncan and Parker should leave the court in protest because no one else is making an effort for the team. Horry continues to shoot and shoot and continues to toss up the ugliest bricks I've ever seen.

I don't get Popovich. What you do in game 1 for quarter 1-3 was working. It was the last quarter you messed up (thank you, Manu), so why change? What is this giving Horry and Vaughn so many minutes when they suck SO BAD!

Keys to Victory:
-Duncan is there. Run offense THROUGH him.
-Limit Vaughn and Horry's minutes to 5 minutes each.
-Threaten to cut off Oberto's balls next time he wants to miss layups
-Threaten Tony's beard if he even thinks about settling for jumpers
-Start Finley to get Finley going early
-Pull Manu if he has a bad shooting night. Keeping him in when he's missing will only increase the turnovers
-Where the hell was Thomas? Is he sick or something?
-Bowen is hitting his 3's. WHY IS HORRY GETTING MORE SHOTS THAN HIM?

Seriously, we should clone Parker 4x, Duncan 4x and Bowen 1x. Have a starting lineup of Parker, Parker, Bowen, Duncan, Duncan. Then have a bench of Bowen, Parker, Parker, Parker, Duncan, Duncan, and Duncan.

I overlooked Ginobili's play in the past because he scored when necessary, but then I realized. Those 3's he made were necessary because he turned the ball over so many damn times, of course the opposing team would pull ahead of us in points.

I'm going to make it very simple for you... Manu has carried this team to victory as many times as Duncan and Parker have. He has won games all by himself in multiple occasions and was a key guy beating the Pistons in 2005.

The guys has been playing hurt since game 1 of the first round. Teams are doing a great job on him, etc. I'm not going to bash him now because he just can't play at the level he can so you can stick all your nonsense up in your ass.

[milkyway21]

you may blame this loss partly on Manu but he not to play?

you must be kidding me. it's like a :yield:!

NO WAY!

[Deuces88]

Since you probably jump on the bandwagon since the playoffs started, let me refresh your memory. Manu was the team leading scorer when the playoff started.
When Timmy went down with an injury Manu put the team ok his back and we managed to beat Dallas and Utah back to back, with 30+ points from him. And it wasn't shooting treys. The guy was unstoppable driving to the basket.

He's both injured and out of gas right now. And please, when you drive and don't have a lift, you're forced to pass in pressure situations, which with lead to turnovers. Same thing with defense, if your ankle hurts, it's hard to turn and follow your guy.

Now we can argue wether Pop should play him or not like this, but throwing him under the bus like this without even mentioning that he's injured and fatigued, is just pure bullshit. Plus who are you going to bring in that is playing any better? Finley? Barry? Those guys camp at the 3pt line and can't create a shot to save their lives.

1) Regular season averages don't mean crap. As I said I'm a Duncan fan and I support Duncan's team. You bandwagon fans trying to act like you know something. LeBron averaged 30 points in the regular season. Did it matter in the playoffs? NO!

2) Driving when there's pressure leads to turnovers? Chris Paul would disagree since he averages only like 1 turnover a game. I won't compare though because as I said Ginobili is a turnover machine and Chris Paul is a superb PG.

3) Injury is not an excuse. Many players play with injury and do better than this. He's simply a scorer and if he's not scoring, WHY HAVE HIM OUT THERE? You know why Finley and Barry would be better at that point? Because they are more reliable at making the open trey. Duncan is going to get doubled, so Finley/Barry or Bowen will be open.

Let me tell you something. When Manu drives, he doesn't have a plan, which is why he throws the ball away so much. He just drives and if he gets pressured he just tosses it away. That's not the quality of a good, consistent scorer. Yea, he can have good nights when he scores and gets to the rim, but when he has an off scoring night, what good is he?

Answer me that one question: When he doesn't have a good scoring night, what good is he?

If Bowen is off for 3's, he still has his excellent defense. When Duncan is off, we have his excellent rebounding and defense. When Parker is off, he passes and gets his assists up.

[Deuces88]

Dumbass watch the game instead of the box score..you fucking tool!

Manu finished of the Pistons in game 1 and he had a better game 2. He found Horry for the wide open 3 in game 5 and in game 7 he had a better shooting percentage than Tim. If he is turnover machine why does he have the ball at the end of games?

fuck you are stupid!

Box score tells a lot. By disregarding the box score, you confirm your stupidity. You're looking at one play to determine things? So if a guy goes 0-20, but then makes the last clutch shot to win the game, he's suddenly played a good game? Are you retarded?

Game 5 was not anything special. They doubled him in the corner. The ONLY PERSON he could pass it to was Horry because Horry was near him. A monkey could make that pass.

[Deuces88]

I'm going to make it very simple for you... Manu has carried this team to victory as many times as Duncan and Parker have. He has won games all by himself in multiple occasions and was a key guy beating the Pistons in 2005.

The guys has been playing hurt since game 1 of the first round. Teams are doing a great job on him, etc. I'm not going to bash him now because he just can't play at the level he can so you can stick all your nonsense up in your ass.

Manu carried the team to victory as many times as Duncan. LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Are you talking about last plays or something? Refer to my example in the above post.

[SpurOutofTownFan]

deuces88 you need to watch the games, boxscores never tell the story in any game... you are a small hollinger in process.

it was funny you said manu is a poor ballhandler...lol oh yes you know a lot about the Spurs...

by the way, we probably should thank manu for even being in the playoffs as he basically carried the team the entire season while the other key pieces were out.

This thread has fail all over it, its one of the worst threads i have ever read in this forum and you are getting owned big time. stop the bleeding

[SpurOutofTownFan]

http://www.themadhat.com/images/vader-fail.jpg

[Deuces88]

deuces88 you need to watch the games, boxscores never tell the story in any game... you are a small hollinger in process.

it was funny you said manu is a poor ballhandler...lol oh yes you know a lot about the Spurs...

by the way, we probably should thank manu for even being in the playoffs as he basically carried the team the entire season while the other key pieces were out.

This thread has fail all over it, its one of the worst threads i have ever read in this forum and you are getting owned big time. stop the bleeding

Kid, again regular season means nothing. If you're not going to be consistent in the playoffs, what's the point?

Anyone who thinks Manu is a good ball handler, just leave the forum now because you've never watched a full Spurs game ever. You've probably only seen snippets of some games.

Box Scores tell the full story. The only thing it leaves out are the intangibles which are mainly defensive. I already know from watching Manu that he's not a defensive presence. He's simply a scorer and turnover machine. When he doesn't score, he brings us nothing. Plain and simple.

For the last time, just because a person makes 1-2 good play down the stretch doesn't mean he played a good game.

By the logic of you retards, I can have a 1-50 shooting day with 20 turnovers but as long as the one shot I made was a clutch shot to win, then I played a good game and carried the team. LOL!

[Deuces88]

box score means shit you fucking dumbass..if you look at box score and see Kobe scores 50 points but don't take into consideration how many shots then you are impressed by numbers!

A monkey could make that pass? Wow, you are just confirming how stupid you aren't you?

Box score shots attempts too, dumbass. Monkey could make the pass, correct. Horry was right near him. There was NO ONE else he could pass it to unless he thought the referee was gonna hit a shot for him. That is possibly the easiest decision and pass to make. Horry is right near you, he's open and you're down 2. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know what to do.

[BigBigSpur]

Yes, Manu is really a liability. Then, let Manu back to Argentina!

[vander]

manu IS a liability at this point, and POP too, WTF? big minutes for horry and vaughn? pulling guys out after they hit a 3, keeping bowen on the bench when Kobe was going off in game one...

Manu is basically Finley right now: average D, can't create his own shot, but might get hot from the 3 point line. pop needs to figure out who in ON from range and let them play. at no point should both Parker and Duncan be on the bench, we need one of them to run the offense through.

[Spurminator]

Thanks for the box scores. I've watched those games several times but it's good to know there are numbers that go along with them.

You do realize that a team's score is the sum of the scoring output of its individual players, right? You're suggesting Duncan could have won the 2005 Finals without Manu?

We Spurs fans appreciate the contributions of all of the Spurs to the Championships they've won for our pleasure. Bowen won us three Championships. Parker won us three Championships. Duncan won us four. Manu won us three.

[ElNono]

So let me get this straight... We put Finley or Barry, both being a bigger defensive liability than Manu, so they can shoot contested treys. The Lakers rarely double up on Duncan, so it's not like we get wide open looks (those wide open treys Manu did hit last series).
Since you like numbers, tell me: Who has the better shooting percentage, by Far, between Ginobili, Finley and Barry?

[Deuces88]

Yes, Manu is really a liability. Then, let Manu back to Argentina!

If we could get a consistent shooting guard to replace Manu, I'd be very pleased. Imagine if Rip replaced Manu. LOL

I find it funny that because I am mad at Manu, people say I'm a bandwagon. How is giving improvements showing me as a bandwagon fan? I said I'm a Duncan fan and I support his team. I want Duncan to win another ring and game 2 was similar to game 1, except Manu and a few others sabotaged the chances of winning from the tip-off.

[SRJ]

2005 Finals

Game 1
Duncan, 24 points (10-22 FG), 17 rebounds, 2 blocked shots, 2 assists, 3 TO
Ginobili, 26 points (10-16 FG), 9 rebounds, 2 assists, 4 TO

Game 2
Duncan, 18 points (5-10), 11 rebounds, 4 blocked shots, 1 assist, 2 TO
Ginobili, 27 points (6-8), 3 rebounds, 7 assists, 3 TO

Game 3
Duncan, 14 points (5-15), 10 rebounds, 1 blocked shot, 4 assist, 2 TO
Ginobili, 7 points (2-6), 4 rebounds, 6 TO

Game 4
Duncan, 16 points (5-17), 16 rebounds, 3 blocked shots, 2 assist, 3 TO
Ginobili, 12 points (4-9), 4 rebounds, 1 blocked shot, 3 assist, 2 TO

Game 5
Duncan, 26 points (11-24), 19 rebounds, 2 blocked shots, 2 assist, 2 TO
Ginobili, 15 points (5-16), 6 rebounds, 9 assist, 2 TO

Game 6
Duncan, 21 points (8-14), 15 rebounds, 1 blocked shot, 1 assist
Ginobili, 21 points (7-17), 10 rebounds, 3 assist, 3 TO
Game 7
Duncan, 25 points (10-27), 11 rebounds, 2 blocked shots, 3 assist, 5 TO
Ginobili, 23 points (8-13), 5 rebounds, 4 assist, 3 TO

Ginobili: 36 MPG, 18.7 ppg, 49.4% FG%, 5.8 rpg, 4 apg, 3.3 TO
Duncan: 40.7 MPG, 20.6 ppg, 41.4% FG%, 14 rpg, 2 apg, 2.1 TO
Parker: 38.1 MPG, 13.9 PPG, 45.8% FG%, 2.4 RPG, 3.4 APG, 3.1 TO

I made a few additions to your chosen stat lines. You chose to lionize Parker earlier, so here now you can see that Ginobili had very much more to do with that 05 win than Parker did despite being 4th in minutes played in those Finals (Bowen was 3rd). Manu was actually more efficient at scoring than Tim was during that series.

[SpurOutofTownFan]

Kid, again regular season means nothing. If you're not going to be consistent in the playoffs, what's the point?

it seems you dont understand the failure you have put yourself into... let me explain...

[QUOTE]Anyone who thinks Manu is a good ball handler, just leave the forum now because you've never watched a full Spurs game ever. You've probably only seen snippets of some games.

I'm pretty sure I've watched more games of basketball than you. I'm way older than you. Manu is a great ball handler for a SG. Now with a bad ankle you arent really effective but if you have ever watched any full game you can't even contest he's a good ballhandler. you are just a hater.


Box Scores tell the full story. The only thing it leaves out are the intangibles which are mainly defensive. I already know from watching Manu that he's not a defensive presence. He's simply a scorer and turnover machine. When he doesn't score, he brings us nothing. Plain and simple.

I lol'ed at this


For the last time, just because a person makes 1-2 good play down the stretch doesn't mean he played a good game.

manu has won more medals and achievements than many players in the NBA, in and out of the States. Theres a reason why he's a proven winner - call it whatever you want.


By the logic of you retards, I can have a 1-50 shooting day with 20 turnovers but as long as the one shot I made was a clutch shot to win, then I played a good game and carried the team. LOL!

I also lol'ed at this.

And by the way, you are too young to call me kid. you are pretty much nothing.

[timvp]

Really...Ginobili is a championFixed.

[ballhog]

He's in a funk. Don't know if it's LA's defense helping with that. Sasha is constantly mugging him (no calls) and he can't seem to get moving at all. Overall though, the whole team is sucking but I think they feed off Manu and play better when he does.

[Spurminator]

Imagine if Rip replaced Manu. LOL

LOL indeed.

Fraud.

[Deuces88]

Thanks for the box scores. I've watched those games several times but it's good to know there are numbers that go along with them.

You do realize that a team's score is the sum of the scoring output of its individual players, right? You're suggesting Duncan could have won the 2005 Finals without Manu?

We Spurs fans appreciate the contributions of all of the Spurs to the Championships they've won for our pleasure. Bowen won us three Championships. Parker won us three Championships. Duncan won us four. Manu won us three.

What's with this retarded logic. OMG, you did not suggest that anyone else BUT Duncan won the championships in 99 and 03. Those 2 years was 100% Duncan. Manu and Tony were inconsistent as you could possibly be. 05, Duncan had help but there is a reason he was the f*cking Finals MVP. 07, Duncan and Parker won it together.

All Manu really does, on good nights, is make the shots he's supposed to make. also, Finley and Manu are basically the same on defense. Finley is unfortunately matched up against bigger men most of the time. Manu can't do a better job guarding Finley's guys. Both are basically non-existent on the defensive end anyway.

[duncan228]

I'm the biggest Duncan homer on this board and even I know how vital Manu was in the '05 Title. As great as Duncan was, without Manu the Spurs don't have that Championship.

[Deuces88]

Somebody just got owned:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

Except, Duncan still produced more offensively and defensively. What you don't understand is that Duncan may have a lot of shot attempts but that's usually on one possession, because Duncan is good enough to get offensive rebounds. Can Manu? Nope!

The stats still agree and what's that? Duncan was the Finals MVP? Not Manu?

Oh you just owned yourself, moron

:rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin

[SpurOutofTownFan]

I find it funny that because I am mad at Manu, people say I'm a bandwagon. How is giving improvements showing me as a bandwagon fan? I said I'm a Duncan fan and I support his team. I want Duncan to win another ring and game 2 was similar to game 1, except Manu and a few others sabotaged the chances of winning from the tip-off.

Part of the ownage you have put yourself into at this point is the gact that people arent bashing you because you are mad at manu, its because you got it all wrong from the beginning calling manu a bad player and dismissing his accomplishments.

Any serious Spurs fan nows better... it doesnt seem you are one.

Please stop the bleeding and the failure.

[duncan228]

The Finals MVP vote in '05 was 6-4, Duncan over Manu. It easily could have been co-MVP's.

[Spurminator]

All Manu really does, on good nights, is make the shots he's supposed to make.

:lmao

Fraud.

[Spurminator]

I'm the biggest Duncan homer on this board and even I know how vital Manu was in the '05 Title. As great as Duncan was, without Manu the Spurs don't have that Championship.

Nor without Duncan, nor without Parker, nor without Horry, nor without Bowen.

[Deuces88]

wow we have a winner..I thought Spursdynasty was stupid:lol

Well let's see. Manu is a scorer. That's it. Nothing else.

When he scores high, is it because he's making tough shots? Actually, it's because he's making the open shots.

Mind you, hand in your face or having a defender be 2 ft away from you counts as open. Hand in the face does nothing and does not count as contested. The layups Manu makes are the same layups Parker makes except Parker makes them more consistently.

[Spurminator]

I mean there are some classically bad takes here. It's almost brilliant really. This is good trolling.

Kudos. :toast

[Deuces88]

well said:toast

and let not forget Bruce guarding Chauncy in game 7 down the stretch too!

Quoting yourself and putting my nick on it. So what does that prove? It proves you quoted yourself. Nice job! :lmao

Horry making a big shot, but camping the rest of the game means nothing. If instead of him, we had a person who was actually a presence on the court, then we wouldn't be down at the time.

[duncan228]

and let not forget Bruce guarding Chauncy in game 7 down the stretch too!


Nor without Duncan, nor without Parker, nor without Horry, nor without Bowen

It takes a team, no one wins it alone. I was just addressing the Manu/Duncan part of the conversation. :)

[Deuces88]

how did I get owned? YOu act like I care that Tim was finals mvp..sorry my life doesn't revolve around Tim winning a finals MVP like yours does..you are so pathetic that you are trying to talk smack through Tim's accomplishments like you had anything to do with it!:lmao

I mention his accomplishments because his accomplishment pushed them to rings. You suck Manu's dick when all he does is make open shots.

If you're going to fellatio someone, at least do it to a person who is outstanding.

You guys are afraid to talk ill of Manu even when he does bad, which means you would fellatio him non-stop. Unlike you, if Duncan does bad, I'll call it out because there is no reason to excuse bad playing.

[SRJ]

Except, Duncan still produced more offensively and defensively. What you don't understand is that Duncan may have a lot of shot attempts but that's usually on one possession, because Duncan is good enough to get offensive rebounds.

Well, let's examine that particular scenario.

If Duncan had ORB'd every one of his missed shots and made them (not likely), then we can assume that's just as good as making the shot in the first place. Therefore, we subtract 33 FGA's from Duncan's 05 totals, giving him 54 (FGM) out of 96 (FGA) for a percentage of .563.

To be fair, we'd have to do the same for Manu, so he would get 42 out of 77 for a percentage of .545.

BUT WAIT - we're not done. Tim did not attempt (or make, obviously) any threes, whereas Manu was 12 for 31 (.387). If you convert that to a 2-point percentage, that becomes .581. Tim was also 36/54 on FTs, Manu was 35/41.

Manu was more efficient at scoring in the 2005 Finals. No amount of spin from you can change that.

[MarceloM!]

turnover machine? What the hell is he good for? isn't a presence on defense ?
He's a poor ball handler ? big three is a fucking myth ? the guy is finished ?
Besides the scoring, what does Manu have?

Who are you guys? are you Spurs fans? what a kind of fans are you! you looks like losers!!!

Go spurs Go, go Manu go!!!

[mikekim]

1) Regular season averages don't mean crap. As I said I'm a Duncan fan and I support Duncan's team. You bandwagon fans trying to act like you know something. LeBron averaged 30 points in the regular season. Did it matter in the playoffs? NO!

2) Driving when there's pressure leads to turnovers? Chris Paul would disagree since he averages only like 1 turnover a game. I won't compare though because as I said Ginobili is a turnover machine and Chris Paul is a superb PG.

3) Injury is not an excuse. Many players play with injury and do better than this. He's simply a scorer and if he's not scoring, WHY HAVE HIM OUT THERE? You know why Finley and Barry would be better at that point? Because they are more reliable at making the open trey. Duncan is going to get doubled, so Finley/Barry or Bowen will be open.

Let me tell you something. When Manu drives, he doesn't have a plan, which is why he throws the ball away so much. He just drives and if he gets pressured he just tosses it away. That's not the quality of a good, consistent scorer. Yea, he can have good nights when he scores and gets to the rim, but when he has an off scoring night, what good is he?

Answer me that one question: When he doesn't have a good scoring night, what good is he?

If Bowen is off for 3's, he still has his excellent defense. When Duncan is off, we have his excellent rebounding and defense. When Parker is off, he passes and gets his assists up.

Manu's versatility rivals that of Duncan's. Maybe not quite equal, but he's the Duncan of the perimeter...when he's healthy.

A healthy Manu can shoot 3 for 16 for the night and come up with 8 steals to get a win over the Lakers

A healthy Manu can rack up 14 assists when his shot isn't falling.

A healthy Manu carries us to back to back wins with 37 point dominance when no one else is available/able.

Yes, his defense can be lacking at times, but get your head straight. Manu gets it done. That's what he brings to the team.

He's majorly injured right now. I'd argue he's maybe even hovering around 50-60% health-wise right now.

Quit saying idiotic things and just realize he's hurt...and giving everything he's got. That's his job. It's up to Pop to limit him or make the decision to rest him or use someone else.

[SRJ]

come on you can't use logic with him..he wants to give Tim fellatio!

True, but it's sometimes fun to respond to a troll with sincerity.

[SpurOutofTownFan]

This was a failed thread from the beginning, I stopped arguing with this guy. We need to thank manu the spurs are even in the playoffs pretty much. Many here were afraid so much effort during the season taking most of the load would hurt him in the postseason and here we are now.

[ElNono]

I'm still waiting for an answer. Who has the better FG%? Manu, Finley or Barry?
What's funny is your complete hate for Manu. I wonder if you were actually angry when we won in 05, because there was a discussion wether Manu or Tim should win the MVP.
And in 03, Manu had a critical steal in NJ, followed by a basket over KMart to win us the game. Not to mention the steal on RJ and dunk that changed the momentum in game 6. Wow, I just mentioned 2 defensive plays by Manu.
This is my last post on this ridiculous thread.
Please Douche88, do me a favor and go FUCK YOURSELF.

[SRJ]

Except, Duncan still produced more offensively and defensively. What you don't understand is that Duncan may have a lot of shot attempts but that's usually on one possession, because Duncan is good enough to get offensive rebounds.


Well, let's examine that particular scenario.

If Duncan had ORB'd every one of his missed shots and made them (not likely), then we can assume that's just as good as making the shot in the first place. Therefore, we subtract 33 FGA's from Duncan's 05 totals, giving him 54 (FGM) out of 96 (FGA) for a percentage of .563.

To be fair, we'd have to do the same for Manu, so he would get 42 out of 77 for a percentage of .545.

BUT WAIT - we're not done. Tim did not attempt (or make, obviously) any threes, whereas Manu was 12 for 31 (.387). If you convert that to a 2-point percentage, that becomes .581. Tim was also 36/54 on FTs, Manu was 35/41.

Manu was more efficient at scoring in the 2005 Finals. No amount of spin from you can change that.

Still waiting...

[BigBigSpur]

Well, he's tired, fucking Deuces88!

[vander]

:lol oh Manu's tired, I guess all is well then, no need for a championship this year, maybe some other year when he's feeling more rested.

[Ozzy]

Well let's see. Manu is a scorer. That's it. Nothing else.

Wrong.... Manu is also a WINNER!

Never forget who gets the ball every time down the stretch in close games. And produces... yep, that is Manu!

[Spurs3000]

I don't know what's wrong with me, but I feel like feeding the troll today.

Bill Simmons wrote this in his NBA MVP Breakdown (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/080416) last month:


5. Manu Ginobili
Ginobili's particularly unique impact this season defied any conceivable statistical measure until our friends at 82games.com unveiled "Clutch Stats" (fourth quarter or OT, five minutes or less, five-point margin or less) and "Super-Clutch Stats" (fourth quarter or OT, two minutes or less, three-point margin or less). In "Clutch" situations, the Argentinian (I love calling him that) averaged nearly a point a minute and shot 57 percent from the field, 44 percent from 3 and 93 percent from the foul line. In "Super-Clutch" situations, Manu was the third-best scorer (behind LeBron and Kobe) and shot a jaw-dropping 62 percent from the field. Throw in free-throw attempts and you could make a case that Manu was a lock to score seven out of 10 times in the last two minutes of every close game. There might be better players, but nobody's better with the bread in the toaster. Not even Kobe.

You can think what you want of Simmons as a person, but he knows his NBA.


When he scores high, is it because he's making tough shots? Actually, it's because he's making the open shots.

No, you're mistaking Manu Ginobili for Daniel Gibson.

Manu is what they call a Shotmaker in the NBA. He simply finds ways to put the ball in the basket, no matter how unorthodox, difficult or ugly. It's a rare talent at a level where pretty much your every move is anticipated by the defense. Kobe Bryant is a Shotmaker as well. Jordan was one, Iverson is one, and so is Tim Duncan.

[amy020]

how can you say that?! Manu has been the hero all season long .He really carry us this season. you've already forgot his game winner in G1 vs suns. He's been struggle with his serious ankle for so long and now the fingernail. But he also tried his best to help the team into the western final. I admit that he didn't play that well in the last two games in los angeles. but the whole team were all struggling . so many wide open shots and just miss miss miss. I believe that MANU will be back. and hope the spurs can play well in the next game. GO SPURS GO!!!

[sassystriker]

Ginobili is basically a scorer and a turnover machine. If he's not producing offensively, that just leaves turnover machine. What the hell is he good for? This is like Boston's Big Three turning into the Big Two Plus Ray Allen. Same here. The Big Two Plus Ginobili.

Seriously, I am more inclined to put Bowen in the Big Three. Bowen is reliable on defense and he can make the open 3. Ginobili, on the other hand, isn't a presence on defense, so we have to depend on his offense. He's a poor ball handler so he turns the ball over every other possession. Now, he can slash, but if he's not producing, he's a total liability. The worse part is, he keeps shooting and shooting poor shots even when he's off. Then the few times he does pass, he passes to f*cking Jacque Vaughn?

Duncan and Parker should leave the court in protest because no one else is making an effort for the team. Horry continues to shoot and shoot and continues to toss up the ugliest bricks I've ever seen.

I don't get Popovich. What you do in game 1 for quarter 1-3 was working. It was the last quarter you messed up (thank you, Manu), so why change? What is this giving Horry and Vaughn so many minutes when they suck SO BAD!

Keys to Victory:
-Duncan is there. Run offense THROUGH him.
-Limit Vaughn and Horry's minutes to 5 minutes each.
-Threaten to cut off Oberto's balls next time he wants to miss layups
-Threaten Tony's beard if he even thinks about settling for jumpers
-Start Finley to get Finley going early
-Pull Manu if he has a bad shooting night. Keeping him in when he's missing will only increase the turnovers
-Where the hell was Thomas? Is he sick or something?
-Bowen is hitting his 3's. WHY IS HORRY GETTING MORE SHOTS THAN HIM?

Seriously, we should clone Parker 4x, Duncan 4x and Bowen 1x. Have a starting lineup of Parker, Parker, Bowen, Duncan, Duncan. Then have a bench of Bowen, Parker, Parker, Parker, Duncan, Duncan, and Duncan.

I overlooked Ginobili's play in the past because he scored when necessary, but then I realized. Those 3's he made were necessary because he turned the ball over so many damn times, of course the opposing team would pull ahead of us in points.


You... are the liability.

Playoffs wouldn't even touch the Spurs this season without Manu. Get a life. What your saying are pathetic. You, infact, are a pathetic idiot for not realizing Manu's worth.

Get off his back. You'll just pretty much eat what you've said when he gets his health back.

[mowgli]

This thread has been a waste of my time. I nominate the OP for DVD Rewinder of the Week.

[Harry Callahan]

Manu has been awesome this season and even dominant at times. Unfortunately, he is INJURED and trying to play through it now with limited success.

The Spurs don't have another viable option to put in there. It's very frustrating to know he is a much much better player than what he has shown in this series so far.

He jammed his foot in the Phoenix series, and has been more of a long range shooter than the slasher he usually is. He shot a lot of outside shots in the NO series but he was still effective.

Nothings working right for him at the moment. A healthy Manu in these two games and we would have a 1-1 series heading back to SA.

[1Parker1]

:lmao Ginobili even hobbled, is going to have at least one game, where he just wills the Spurs to a win. Hope Duncan/Parker/Bowen can help him out the three games when he's off and win them.

[1Parker1]

I will say this. Ginobili had a fanstastic regular season in 07-08. Perhaps even better than in 2005 when he was an All Star. There were games where he just owned and willed the Spurs to a win. And he looked the healthiest and spriest I have ever seen him for most of the regular season.

It's very unfortunate that he got injured and ran out of gas at the most critical time in the playoff run. If Ginobili were healthy, this series would have been over in 5 with no question.

But that's no excuse, there's still 7 other guys on this team who could step up in Ginobili's place and haven't. Hopefully that changes Game 3.

[SpurOutofTownFan]

Where are you now you fucking piece of garbage?

[ElNono]

Bump. Always a good time to call out the haters.

Douche88, get your free crow tomorrow morning at Valero.

[BiZNicK]

Haha..


funny seeing a "Ginobiili is a liability" and a "Ginobili is God" thread on the same page..

[Bob Lanier]

He just made some shots like he was supposed to, idiot! That's what he's paid to do! These sons of bitches get paid millions of dollars to make shots, so I don't know why you're surprised when they do.

Manu is a shooting guard after all.

You people don't know much about basketball, do you?

[LakerLanny]

A lot of superstars play with injuries. Look at Iverson and Wade. Hell even Ben Wallace once played with a f*cked up leg. That's not an excuse, especially not in Manu's case. Is his ankle telling him not to pass the ball or to pass the ball to a Laker? Is the ankle telling him to take contested 3's instead of dishing it to Duncan?

I didn't know ankles could talk.


LOL, how do you like him now?

He was clearly the difference tonight.

Props to him, despite loser fans like you.

[SPARKY]

Leave it to Deuce to make Laker Fan look smart.

[DAF86]

People, you need to understand that all the guys that say things like: Gionobili is a liability, We should trade Parker for T.J Ford, Bowen is useless, Duncan is a stiff, Pop sucks, etc. aren't Spurs fans, they're just fans of a particular individual, and we have a lot of these on this forum. So the best thing to do is just to ignore them.

[MarceloM!]

People, you need to understand that all the guys that say things like: Gionobili is a liability, We should trade Parker for T.J Ford, Bowen is useless, Duncan is a stiff, Pop sucks, etc. aren't Spurs fans, they're just fans of a particular individual, and we have a lot of these on this forum. So the best thing to do is just to ignore them.

i agree. Where are those guys saying bullshit on Manu?

[gwidlon]

People, you need to understand that all the guys that say things like: Gionobili is a liability, We should trade Parker for T.J Ford, Bowen is useless, Duncan is a stiff, Pop sucks, etc. aren't Spurs fans, they're just fans of a particular individual, and we have a lot of these on this forum. So the best thing to do is just to ignore them.

I agree, people like that will be more than happy with their team done for the season if their favorite player scores more than 30pts.
they are just pathetic...

[ElNono]

People, you need to understand that all the guys that say things like: Gionobili is a liability, We should trade Parker for T.J Ford, Bowen is useless, Duncan is a stiff, Pop sucks, etc. aren't Spurs fans, they're just fans of a particular individual, and we have a lot of these on this forum. So the best thing to do is just to ignore them.

You can be a fan of an individual. I don't mind that at all. What I have a problem with is the flat out hate. I don't mind criticism if somebody has not played well for a game or two. But to diminish his entire career because of a bad game or two is not only flat out wrong, but borderline trolling.

[Mister Sinister]

Holy freaking crap, posting in a Manu thread.

[atxrocker]

hey guys, so i was thinking and you know what? manu ginobili is a fucking LIABILITY!!!! rofl. maybe they should bench him the rest of the lakers series. the guy sucks!

[Septic]

He basically said that Manu is a scorer and a turnover machine, which he basically is. If he isn't scoring he isn't doing much on defense so at that moment he is a liability and Pop should make an in game subs. to give him a little rest.

Game1 and 2 everyone here had that going through their minds, we don't win if he isn't playing good. So wouldn't he be a liability if he isn't contributing on the court?

[Emanuel20]

He basically said that Manu is a scorer and a turnover machine, which he basically is. If he isn't scoring he isn't doing much on defense so at that moment he is a liability and Pop should make an in game subs. to give him a little rest.

Game1 and 2 everyone here had that going through their minds, we don't win if he isn't playing good. So wouldn't he be a liability if he isn't contributing on the court?

If you base your opinion on the first two games of the series: Yes to your post.
But Ginobili had two bad games, so be it!
For his usual play, he will try to rack up assists and grab rebounds, steals when he is shooting bad which was not evident in the first two games in the series. But I have always said that he understands the game and helps us with all around game (assist, rebound, block), even though he is having a rough time now, he will be fine.

[Beast]

Ginobili is basically a scorer and a turnover machine. If he's not producing offensively, that just leaves turnover machine. What the hell is he good for? This is like Boston's Big Three turning into the Big Two Plus Ray Allen. Same here. The Big Two Plus Ginobili.

Seriously, I am more inclined to put Bowen in the Big Three. Bowen is reliable on defense and he can make the open 3. Ginobili, on the other hand, isn't a presence on defense, so we have to depend on his offense. He's a poor ball handler so he turns the ball over every other possession. Now, he can slash, but if he's not producing, he's a total liability. The worse part is, he keeps shooting and shooting poor shots even when he's off. Then the few times he does pass, he passes to f*cking Jacque Vaughn?

Duncan and Parker should leave the court in protest because no one else is making an effort for the team. Horry continues to shoot and shoot and continues to toss up the ugliest bricks I've ever seen.

I don't get Popovich. What you do in game 1 for quarter 1-3 was working. It was the last quarter you messed up (thank you, Manu), so why change? What is this giving Horry and Vaughn so many minutes when they suck SO BAD!

Keys to Victory:
-Duncan is there. Run offense THROUGH him.
-Limit Vaughn and Horry's minutes to 5 minutes each.
-Threaten to cut off Oberto's balls next time he wants to miss layups
-Threaten Tony's beard if he even thinks about settling for jumpers
-Start Finley to get Finley going early
-Pull Manu if he has a bad shooting night. Keeping him in when he's missing will only increase the turnovers
-Where the hell was Thomas? Is he sick or something?
-Bowen is hitting his 3's. WHY IS HORRY GETTING MORE SHOTS THAN HIM?

Seriously, we should clone Parker 4x, Duncan 4x and Bowen 1x. Have a starting lineup of Parker, Parker, Bowen, Duncan, Duncan. Then have a bench of Bowen, Parker, Parker, Parker, Duncan, Duncan, and Duncan.

I overlooked Ginobili's play in the past because he scored when necessary, but then I realized. Those 3's he made were necessary because he turned the ball over so many damn times, of course the opposing team would pull ahead of us in points.

IGNORANT, FAKE, SPURS "FAN!"

[Fizzzar]

Stop feeding the troll... He'll come back next time manu has a sub par game.

[SpurOutofTownFan]

no troll here, he was being serious - he posted about 20 times explaining his points. Im still waiting for his loser ass to come here and face the smackdown and the ownage he deserves

[SouthernFried]

Anyone who says Manu is a liability when he's not scoring...and he's only good for scoring...is a fool.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[DAF86]

You can be a fan of an individual. I don't mind that at all. What I have a problem with is the flat out hate. I don't mind criticism if somebody has not played well for a game or two. But to diminish his entire career because of a bad game or two is not only flat out wrong, but borderline trolling.

Of course it's ok to be a fan of an individual, in fact everybody has his favorite player. The problem is when you say you're a fan of a particular team but you're actually a fan of just one player of that team. I'm sure that if Duncan gets hurt Deuces88 will start cheering for the Spurs to lose.

[vander]

ginobili was a liability in games one and two, game three didn't change that,

[DAF86]

ginobili was a liability in games one and two, game three didn't change that,

Here's an example of what I was talking about.

[Mr. Peabody]

Man, when his shots aren't falling, the rest of his game goes to hell.

[vander]

he's looking more and more like just one of the greatest bench/role/energy players ever, not a star that you can count on every night.
If he isn't ON, Pop needs to pull him out right away

[vander]

ouch, yet another no show from Manu. I dare say that if he was NOT on the spurs' roster we could have at least taken LA to 6.
and I only see Manu continuing downhill, his style of play doesn't age well.
:depressed

[ElNono]

Let me put it clearly, so we can put this thread to rest: Manu Ginobili will be a Spur until at least 2010, perhaps even longer. So either get used to him, or get off the bandwagon.

[vander]

wow..a lot of Nba General managers are moonlighting on the Spurs forum today! Any other worthy trades that you recommend:lmao

I am dealing with the spurs loss by being a dick to other spurs fans. how are you coping?

[Beast]

Well, Bowen doesn't get enough credit.

he SURE doesnt!!

[gregpschneid]

We'd have 3 less championships without manu. You guys should be ashamed. There are some real dumbasses around this forum.

[vander]

We'd have 3 less championships without manu. You guys should be ashamed. There are some real dumbasses around this forum.

because if we didn't have Manu, we would have just left that shooting guard position vacant, so yeah it would have been hard to win 3 titles with only 4 guys out there half the time.

[Beast]

We'd have 3 less championships without manu. You guys should be ashamed. There are some real dumbasses around this forum.

MORE than some!! i am embarrased to be a fan with these people!

[ManuTim_best of Fwiendz]

because if we didn't have Manu, we would have just left that shooting guard position vacant, so yeah it would have been hard to win 3 titles with only 4 guys out there half the time.

I'm pretty sure someone less than a Wade and Kobe at the SG spot in place of Manu would have choked or at best came up short, and an easy scenario of 2001-2002 of championship droughts with Duncan having no help would have repeated over and over again.