Mom watched as girl, 3, fatally beaten

[Slydragon]

This shit pisses me off so bad, give me a bat and have him handcuff to a rail so he can be defenseless like the small girl was. Fuck the mom to.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5793707.html

When 3-year-old Catherine wet her pants on Monday afternoon, her stepfather got so frustrated that he made her stand in a corner for an hour, soaked in urine.

But after the hour was up, police say, Camilo Garza was still angry. So he started spanking her. His anger turned to rage as he began to hit and kick her tiny frame for nearly an hour, authorities said.

His patience short-circuited by cocaine, Garza beat his young stepdaughter to death over a potty-training accident, police said.

A judge this morning denied bail for Garza, 41, who was charged Tuesday with capital murder in Catherine Martinez's death. The child — beaten until she was black and blue — was pronounced dead Monday at Memorial Hermann Children's Hospital.

State District Judge Brock Thomas said he will appoint an attorney for Garza because he is indigent.

The girl's mother told Child Protective Services workers that after the toddler stood in the corner for an hour on Monday, Garza, who had been using cocaine and taking pills, started to spank her. He then made her stand on a rail about four feet off the floor in their one-room shack, CPS officials said.

The little girl tried to sit down. He made her stand up. She fell off the rail.

He started slapping her on the back of the head, according to the mother's report. His fury built with every blow.

"The mother described everything from grabbing her by the neck and smashing her head into the wall to kicking her while she was down," said CPS spokeswoman Estella Olguin.

The beating lasted for about 45 minutes, police said. When it ended, the girl was turning blue. Her mother tried CPR, then called 911.

"That's when the mother realized it had gone further than she had originally thought," said Officer L.K. Lovelace, a homicide investigator who is working the case.

At a hearing Tuesday afternoon, the mother was denied custody of her two other children: a 6-year-old girl and a 10-month-old boy. They are in foster care and will be kept from seeing their mother and other relatives, for now, Olguin said.

Catherine's mother and grandmother declined to comment Tuesday, on an attorney's advice. At the custody hearing, the mother pleaded the Fifth Amendment against self-incrimination. Police are considering possible charges against the mother, Lovelace said.

An affidavit filed with CPS after Catherine's death told of bruises from head to toe, in various stages of healing.

"When they examined her she had old and new injuries," Olguin said. "Bruises on her forehead, back of the head and behind the ear, on the clavicle, back, thighs, shins, feet ... "

There was also bruising that could signify sexual abuse, Olguin said. The other two children will also be examined for possible abuse.

Home visit in April
Catherine's death came in the midst of a CPS investigation into the family, following an anonymous report of child abuse last month.

A report filed in November had not led to any disciplinary action. At the time, Garza and the mother had separated but were seeking counseling and working toward reconciliation.

The last time a case worker visited the home, on April 25, she reported no visible injuries on any of the children.

"She didn't see any signs of abuse, but she still wanted to follow up and talk to family members," Olguin said. "That case had not been completed when this happened."

CPS officials will review the case to make sure workers didn't overlook signs of abuse or miss any steps that could have prevented the girl's death.

In the rural community, south of Hobby Airport, where Catherine and her family lived, 92-year-old Paul E. Paulson wondered Tuesday whether there was anything he could have done differently.

Paulson had let the family stay in the 20-by-20 foot shack in the pasture behind his house after they showed up on his doorstep in February. He said he's a minister who takes in families like this one, who find themselves in dire straits. They paid a token rent.

Garza did odd jobs, as a plumber and electrician, and the mother stayed home with her children, Paulson said.

The shack had basic amenities — water, electricity, air conditioning, a bathroom. The family of five had a queen-sized mattress that everyone slept on, Paulson said.

Paulson and his wife got along well with the mother and adored the children, but found Garza abrasive, he said. Garza complained often about the difficulties of potty-training the toddler.

"He'd say, 'That 3-year-old is really tearing me up,' " Paulson said.

Still, he had no idea about the alleged child abuse or drug use, Paulson said.

"I wish I'd have known he was on drugs. They wouldn't have been here," he said. "I thought I was helping them."

[PacerFan]

[QUOTE=Slydragon;2538974]This shit pisses me off so bad, give me a bat and have him handcuff to a rail so he can be defenseless like the small girl was. Fuck the mom to.
:toast

[Borosai]

The beating lasted for about 45 minutes, police said. When it ended, the girl was turning blue. Her mother tried CPR, then called 911.

"That's when the mother realized it had gone further than she had originally thought," said Officer L.K. Lovelace, a homicide investigator who is working the case.

She was either high as well, or she's the dumbest bitch around. Either way, she should be charged too.

[slowchild25]

"The mother described everything from grabbing her by the neck and smashing her head into the wall to kicking her while she was down," said CPS spokeswoman Estella Olguin.

The beating lasted for about 45 minutes, police said. When it ended, the girl was turning blue. Her mother tried CPR, then called 911.

"That's when the mother realized it had gone further than she had originally thought," said Officer L.K. Lovelace, a homicide investigator who is working the case.

ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS YOU STUPID BITCH!?!?!? :bang


This shit pisses me off so bad, give me a bat and have him handcuff to a rail so he can be defenseless like the small girl was. Fuck the mom to.

After your done let me have a few swings at those fuckers too.

[Sunshine]

Prison life won't be nice for him. Even the most hardened criminal who has committed the most heinous of crimes despise child abusers. He'll get his due.

[mrsmaalox]

Prison life won't be nice for him. Even the most hardened criminal who has committed the most heinous of crimes despise child abusers. He'll get his due.

They better keep him on suicide watch. Cowards like him will always try the easy way out.

[pawe]

I hope That bastard rots in jail and suffers for the longest time possible. The mother should be jailed as well, how can a mother watch as her child's head is being smashed against a wall. These people are sick!

[DieMrBond]

I felt queasy reading that story. How can anyone BEAT A 3 YEAR OLD TO DEATH!? FUCK. Especially over something that everyone has to go through, in toilet training.

Worse still - how can you watch someone do it to your daughter? Where the hell was her motherly instinct?

My 3 year old daughter is toilet trained, but she has the occasional accident (like most kids her age). Not a reason to bludgeon her to death. As a parent, it makes you mad. As a human being, i hope it makes you mad too.

[AlamoSpursFan]

There is a special place in the darkest of the 12 unholy regions of deep blue Hell for scumfucks like this.

And the stepfather's a worthless piece of shit too...

[BigZak]

2 orders for death penalty please...:wakeup

[manufor3]

the mom's not very smart, wait til she turns blur "oh shes blue, okay now time to call 9-11" Poor little girl :cry

[sa_butta]

:smchode:

That makes me so mad, in my eyes she is just as guilty for watching it happen and doing nothing. I know most mothers out there would at least TRY to take that fucker out. I know my wife would. Peice of shit.

[smeagol]

Difficult to be against the death penalty after reading this article.

[lefty]

:pctoss

[CuckingFunt]

Difficult to be against the death penalty after reading this article.

No it's not.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

No it's not.

yes it is. I'm against the death penalty, but when I hear about things like this, it makes my blood boil.

[Southwest Texas Fan]

Reading this got me a little teary eyed but also really pissed me off. Why a child I hate it when I read stuff like this, it really angers me.

[Sunshine]

Difficult to be against the death penalty after reading this article.

This is when an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth looks pretty damn good to me.

[CuckingFunt]

yes it is. I'm against the death penalty, but when I hear about things like this, it makes my blood boil.

Sentencing this guy to death a) wouldn't solve anything, and b) would give him the easy way out.

[Don Quixote]

Yeah, I'm not sure the death penalty would be adequately harsh on the guy in this case. I'm generally for the death penalty, but if I were to critique it, one of my reservations against it is that it's not hard enough on creeps like this.

I'd prefer him to be in the middle of the Nevada desert, eating bread and water, turning big rocks in little rocks. And being beaten regularly.

[Sunshine]

Sentencing this guy to death a) wouldn't solve anything, and b) would give him the easy way out.

I'm sorry, but there are just some crimes that should be punishable by death. A slow, painful death, much like the pain and suffering they've inflicted upon their child victims.

Severely tortured toddlers mom and her boyfriend arrested
A 17 month old boy who had cooking oil, heated in a frying pan, poured on his genitals as well as beaten to the point of sustaining spinal injuries is recovering, but the extent of his injuries and whether or not he’ll be able to walk again have not yet been reported.

Perhaps the boyfriend and the mother don’t know what it feels like to be punched in the stomach by someone 15X bigger than you and have frying grease poured on their genitals and a hair-dryer used to burn off their skin, so I recommend that they find out. If it’s good enough for their baby, surely it’s good enough for them.

We are failing in protecting our most vulnerable. I don’t know what can be done, if anything, but it seems like this happens far, far too often. Once is too much.

The mother of an Apopka toddler severely burned and beaten was arrested today on one count of child neglect, police said.

Marlita S. Stokes, 23, was at work when her boyfriend Darlanne Toussaint, 24, used his fist to smash the 17-month-old’s chest and back, and a blow dryer to burn the child’s skin. The boy who suffered second-degree burns on his genitals, back, chest and head, is in stable condition at Florida Hospital Orlando this morning.

Toussaint was baby-sitting girlfriend Marlita Stokes’ two children at the couple’s home in the 1900 block of Nicole Lee Circle when the incident occurred Thursday morning, police said. The other child was not hurt.

[td4mvp21]

I couldn't even read the whole article, that's just sick.

[Sunshine]

I couldn't even read the whole article, that's just sick.

Then I won't post the one about the mother who poured boiling water over her son as he sat in a bathtub then waited 4 days to seek medical help and got 6 MONTHS IN JAIL and will most likely regain custody of her son after the sentence is up.

[Summers]

It's so hard for me to read things like this. I nearly slapped a woman in the dry cleaners for asking my five-year-old, "What's wrong with you?" I simply can't fathom how any woman can birth a baby and watch someone hurt it.

[tlongII]

The guy should be given the death penalty. That way tax payers don't have to pay for keeping him alive.

[td4mvp21]

Then I won't post the one about the mother who poured boiling water over her son as he sat in a bathtub then waited 4 days to seek medical help and got 6 MONTHS IN JAIL and will most likely regain custody of her son after the sentence is up.

Apparently a child's life isn't valued too highly in this country. Funny how you can get jail time for truancy yet a child molester can get off with only probation and the label "sex offender".

[whottt]

Yeah, I'm not sure the death penalty would be adequately harsh on the guy in this case. I'm generally for the death penalty, but if I were to critique it, one of my reservations against it is that it's not hard enough on creeps like this.

I'd prefer him to be in the middle of the Nevada desert, eating bread and water, turning big rocks in little rocks. And being beaten regularly.


Ok so how about this:

Put out his eyes, cut out his tongue, destroy his sense of hearing, cut off all his arms and legs(or sever the nerves that control them at the spinal cord), and if there's any way possible get rid of his sense of touch as well...


and then keep him alive via intravenous feeding for as long as is humanly possible? With the caveat that he is trapped completely in his own mind and unable to interact with anything or anyone else?

[CuckingFunt]

The guy should be given the death penalty. That way tax payers don't have to pay for keeping him alive.

The cost to the taxpayers to keep an inmate in jail for life are, on average, less than the cost to the taxpayers for the multiple appeals and execution in a capital punishment case/sentence.

Also, it could be easily offset if we, as a country, stopped putting people in jail for years and years and years on minor drug and prostitution charges.

[slowchild25]

Ok so how about this:

Put out his eyes, cut out his tongue, destroy his sense of hearing, cut off all his arms and legs(or sever the nerves that control them at the spinal cord), and if there's any way possible get rid of his sense of touch as well...


and then keep him alive via intravenous feeding for as long as is humanly possible? With the caveat that he is trapped completely in his own mind and unable to interact with anything or anyone else?

Keep that at least around the chest/stomach area that way you can randomly come into his little box and jab him with a few red hot pokers/branding irons.

[mrsmaalox]

The cost to the taxpayers to keep an inmate in jail for life are, on average, less than the cost to the taxpayers for the multiple appeals and execution in a capital punishment case/sentence.

Also, it could be easily offset if we, as a country, stopped putting people in jail for years and years and years on minor drug and prostitution charges.

I don't disagree with you here Funt, but I can't help feeling that by keeping him alive we are placing more value on his life than that of the baby he killed. I'm always torn in the death penalty debate.

[whottt]

Anyway all you guys arguing that he should be kept alive to make it "harder" on him...are missing the point entirely...it's not about making it harder on him, it's not about vengeance(in the eyes of the law I mean), it's not about cruelty, it's about justice. What is easier on him or harder on him is not the question...it's about getting justice for the victim, and reducing the danger to others. and keeping a murderer alive seldom gives the victim justice for the crime commited. or reduces his danger to others...only one thing gives justice for murder. and it also does a pretty effective job of rendering the criminal no longer a threat to others...and that's the death sentence.

[atxrocker]

it's times like this i wish there was a hell so that this fucker could burn in it no matter how he dies. usually i'd say electric chair his ass and get it the fuck over with, but since child killers/molesters seem to get theirs in jail anyways, i say let the fucker get his.

[tlongII]

The cost to the taxpayers to keep an inmate in jail for life are, on average, less than the cost to the taxpayers for the multiple appeals and execution in a capital punishment case/sentence.

Also, it could be easily offset if we, as a country, stopped putting people in jail for years and years and years on minor drug and prostitution charges.

What people are we putting in jail for years and years on minor drug and prostitution charges? I think you are exaggerating.

[atxrocker]

What people are we putting in jail for years and years on minor drug and prostitution charges? I think you are exaggerating.

errr, actually not so much. it's a proven fact (don't want to look up/link the research now) that lotsa people get heavier sentences for drug charges (marijuana often times) then robbers, rapists and sometimes even murderers.

[CuckingFunt]

Anyway all you guys arguing that he should be kept alive to make it "harder" on him...are missing the point entirely...it's not about making it harder on him, it's not about vengeance(in the eyes of the law I mean), it's not about cruelty, it's about justice. What is easier on him or harder on him is not the question...it's about getting justice for the victim, and reducing the danger to others. and keeping a murderer alive seldom gives the victim justice for the crime commited. or reduces his danger to others...only one thing gives justice for murder. and it also does a pretty effective job of rendering the criminal no longer a threat to others...and that's the death sentence.

It's impossible for there to be actual justice in a case like this. Ever.

But, then, I've never been the type who sees "justice" and "vengeance" as interchangable terms.

I just don't see what the death penalty does, or what it actually accomplishes.

[CuckingFunt]

What people are we putting in jail for years and years on minor drug and prostitution charges? I think you are exaggerating.

No, I'm not. With this country's war on drugs and "three strikes" laws, there are many people, especially women, who are serving close to life sentences for minor possession charges.

[tlongII]

errr, actually not so much. it's a proven fact (don't want to look up/link the research now) that lotsa people get heavier sentences for drug charges (marijuana often times) then robbers, rapists and sometimes even murderers.

I know of no prostitutes that served multiple years hard time for the crime of prostitution.

[tlongII]

No, I'm not. With this country's war on drugs and "three strikes" laws, there are many people, especially women, who are serving close to life sentences for minor possession charges.

Link please.

[atxrocker]

I know of no prostitutes that served multiple years hard time for the crime of prostitution.

yeah, i was referring mainly to the drug reference. don't know any data about the whole prostitute thing.

[mrsmaalox]

The drug penalties are absolutely true. That is why the first step has finally been taken by making the distinction legally between powder cocaine and crack (rock) cocaine. The millions and millions of dollars spent on the "War on Drugs" has been a total waste.

[CuckingFunt]

Link please.

You're welcome to go searching through Bureau of Justice statistics, if you'd like, but once was enough for me. I'd rather do the housework I'm avoiding.

[tlongII]

You're welcome to go searching through Bureau of Justice statistics, if you'd like, but once was enough for me. I'd rather do the housework I'm avoiding.

No thanks. I'll just assume you were exaggerating.

[slowchild25]

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/may2004/pris-m26.shtml

Though 70 percent of those serving life sentences are in prison for murder convictions, the composition of this segment of the prison population is changing due to the increased frequency of life sentences for drug crimes and cases that do not involve violent offenses. Around 5,000 people are serving a life sentence for a drug offense, 2,000 in the federal prison system. In California, half of the 7,335 people incarcerated for drug offenses under an infamous “three strikes” law were incarcerated for simple drug possession.

[tlongII]

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/may2004/pris-m26.shtml

Though 70 percent of those serving life sentences are in prison for murder convictions, the composition of this segment of the prison population is changing due to the increased frequency of life sentences for drug crimes and cases that do not involve violent offenses. Around 5,000 people are serving a life sentence for a drug offense, 2,000 in the federal prison system. In California, half of the 7,335 people incarcerated for drug offenses under an infamous “three strikes” law were incarcerated for simple drug possession.

Nothing about prostitution there...

[E20]

I would kick this guys ass. Let him heal, kick his ass some more. Do this once a month forever.

[Don Quixote]

I think T-long is looking for a girlfriend?

Really, though, while I lean toward keeping the death penalty legal, I also take seriously some the issues being raised: the lack of ultimate justice (the state can't do it, no matter how hard the penalty), the cost to the taxpayers, etc.

I just don't get all that excited about the fate of lowlifes like this guy who beat this girl to death. If there's reasonable evidence that, say, someone on death row might be innocent, then I'm all for clemency. But I'm not sure why people get all upset about a few murderers getting fried (or injected) -- where is this outrage about other crimes against humanity (e.g., forced prostitution, abortion, slavery)?

Trust me, I'm not unconcerned about convicted murderers. I'm just alot more concerned about women and children being brutalized, sold, etc. I'll spend my time and energy defending them, thankyou.

[slowchild25]

No, I'm not. With this country's war on drugs and "three strikes" laws, there are many people, especially women, who are serving close to life sentences for minor possession charges.


Link please.


http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/may2004/pris-m26.shtml


Nothing about prostitution there...


I didn't see anything about prostitution in the original post where you asked for a link from, I assumed you where asking for a link to back up the drug possession charges. I have no idea about the prostitution portion of this.

[Don Quixote]

it's times like this i wish there was a hell so that this fucker could burn in it no matter how he dies.

Ladies and gentlemen of ST ... we have a time and space traveler!

Come behold the first human being to successfully step outside of space and time as we know it -- ATXrocksmoker!:lol In his latest trip outside of the bounds of the universe, he was able to determine that there is, indeed, no hell. No word on how he was able to determine this.

So, tell us ... rocker, do the Spurs repeat this year?

[atxrocker]

So, tell us ... rocker, do the Spurs repeat this year?

short answer, no you dumb fuck. if i had known you would have tooken such offense, i would have gone out of my way to further do so. shouldn't you be wasting your time homo bashing, shooting thugs or trying to convert everyone over to the lord than posting on a message board?

[atxrocker]

Ladies and gentlemen of ST ... we have a time and space traveler!

Come behold the first human being to successfully step outside of space and time as we know it -- ATXrocksmoker!:lol In his latest trip outside of the bounds of the universe, he was able to determine that there is, indeed, no hell. No word on how he was able to determine this.



and lmao @ the notion that you have "traveled outside of space" to determine that there IS a hell. keep your bible preaching in church, old timer.

[Don Quixote]

Actually, I wasn't offended at all. I was merely wanting to know, given your apparent naturalistic bent, how you are in a position to know whether or not there is a hell in the first place. You spoke as one with certainty, not me. My belief in hell comes as a byproduct of a faith commitment to God -- I am not able to find whether or not heaven or hell exists any more than you are. They lay outside of our metaphysical realm. You can't discover it any more than you can travel outside of the universe. I believe in it solely because the God that I know has spoken of it in his word.

Second, I don't "bash gays," "shoot thugs," or "try to convert everyone." That's ignorant. And I'm not that old.

[atxrocker]

Second, I don't "bash gays," "shoot thugs," or "try to convert everyone." That's ignorant. And I'm not that old.

nice try but several posts in the political forum you bash gays before even getting into the "moral or religious" parts of it , in the gun control thread you say you feel the need to protect yourself and "scurr" thugs away and just like every bible thumper on the forum you do try to push your beliefs on everyone through your posts. so fail, fail, try again?

[Don Quixote]

Um, no. If by "bashing gays" you mean I "took a political and moral position on their activity," then fine. But I have never, and will never, advocate violence or discrimination against them, nor do I promote caricatures over who and what they are. I thought that's what bashing was.

And, again, by calling me a "bible thumper" who "pushes my beliefs on others," you have revealed two things: (1) you have a prejudice against conservative evangelicals, and (2) you are less tolerant of me than I am of homosexuals.

Forums are about the open exchange of ideas. People have different opinions -- the whole field of ethics (and philosophy!) is geared toward discussing what is, and what ought to be. We do this, to a degree, at ST. If you don't like others' opinions, then you have the right to disagree in writing. Or ignore the opinions, that's fine too. But don't expect others to believe that you are any less guilty of trying to push your beliefs on others than I am.

Bottom line: you said "there is no hell." I said, "what makes you so sure?" It wasn't personal against you.

[Don Quixote]

And lastly, I never questioned your right not to defend yourself. I take it as my duty and right to defend my house. If you don't, then that's your call. Good luck against any lowlife who decides to invade your house.

But I'm certainly not one who plans on prowling the streets looking for people to kill.

[atxrocker]

Bottom line: you said "there is no hell." I said, "what makes you so sure?" It wasn't personal against you.

to be fair, i said "sometimes i wish there was a hell". while obviously that implies that i question that there is, it can't be completely interpreted the way you did which is when you took offense and gave your over dramatic response.

[Jekka]

At a hearing Tuesday afternoon, the mother was denied custody of her two other children: a 6-year-old girl and a 10-month-old boy. They are in foster care and will be kept from seeing their mother and other relatives, for now, Olguin said.
I hope that these other two kids get sexual assault/abuse exams. Authorities also need to find out if this guy has any other kids from other relationships and question them.


Police are considering possible charges against the mother, Lovelace said.
Criminal neglect, anyone? At the very least.

[tlongII]

I didn't see anything about prostitution in the original post where you asked for a link from, I assumed you where asking for a link to back up the drug possession charges. I have no idea about the prostitution portion of this.


The cost to the taxpayers to keep an inmate in jail for life are, on average, less than the cost to the taxpayers for the multiple appeals and execution in a capital punishment case/sentence.

Also, it could be easily offset if we, as a country, stopped putting people in jail for years and years and years on minor drug and prostitution charges.

[Mr. Peabody]

errr, actually not so much. it's a proven fact (don't want to look up/link the research now) that lotsa people get heavier sentences for drug charges (marijuana often times) then robbers, rapists and sometimes even murderers.

I think that's the exception and not the rule. For the most part, a crime of violence is going to result in a harsher sentence than a drug offense of the same offense level.

I do agree that our drug laws are unduly harsh though.

[tlongII]

Um, no. If by "bashing gays" you mean I "took a political and moral position on their activity," then fine. But I have never, and will never, advocate violence or discrimination against them, nor do I promote caricatures over who and what they are. I thought that's what bashing was.

And, again, by calling me a "bible thumper" who "pushes my beliefs on others," you have revealed two things: (1) you have a prejudice against conservative evangelicals, and (2) you are less tolerant of me than I am of homosexuals.

Forums are about the open exchange of ideas. People have different opinions -- the whole field of ethics (and philosophy!) is geared toward discussing what is, and what ought to be. We do this, to a degree, at ST. If you don't like others' opinions, then you have the right to disagree in writing. Or ignore the opinions, that's fine too. But don't expect others to believe that you are any less guilty of trying to push your beliefs on others than I am.

Bottom line: you said "there is no hell." I said, "what makes you so sure?" It wasn't personal against you.


Main Entry: 1evan·gel·i·cal
Pronunciation: \ˌē-ˌvan-ˈje-li-kəl, ˌe-vən-\
Variant(s): also evan·gel·ic \-ik\
Function: adjective
Date: 1531
1: of, relating to, or being in agreement with the Christian gospel especially as it is presented in the four Gospels
2: protestant
3: emphasizing salvation by faith in the atoning death of Jesus Christ through personal conversion, the authority of Scripture, and the importance of preaching as contrasted with ritual
4 acapitalized : of or relating to the Evangelical Church in Germany boften capitalized : of, adhering to, or marked by fundamentalism : fundamentalist coften capitalized : low church
5: marked by militant or crusading zeal : evangelistic <the evangelical ardor of the movement's leaders — Amos Vogel>

The fact that you are describing yourself as evagelistical could be interpreted to mean you push your beliefs on others. Just sayin...

[Don Quixote]

Possible -- but clearly not what I mean when using the word "evangelical" to describe me. I would be fine with the first 3 definitions, and only the 5th in a very limited manner. I would argue that the number of evangelical (5th def.) atheists at ST outnumbers the number of evangelical Christians here.

[Don Quixote]

to be fair, i said "sometimes i wish there was a hell". while obviously that implies that i question that there is, it can't be completely interpreted the way you did which is when you took offense and gave your over dramatic response.

Yeah, I caught that. Your initial post obviously implied that you question whether or not hell exists. And I used humor to make my point -- that you couldn't possibly know whether or not it does. But I was not offended, and I apologize if I came off as condescending or "judgmental" to you.

So you are open, then, to the possibility of hell?

[atxrocker]

I would argue that the number of evangelical (5th def.) atheists at ST outnumbers the number of evangelical Christians here.

and i would argue that you must not have participated in the 1000s of great and meaningful (sarcasm) religious debates that have taken place here. and from my experience reading through the threads, it's always the evangelical christians that go on and on and on and on to prove their point. my two cents anyways.

[tlongII]

Possible -- but clearly not what I mean when using the word "evangelical" to describe me. I would be fine with the first 3 definitions, and only the 5th in a very limited manner. I would argue that the number of evangelical (5th def.) atheists at ST outnumbers the number of evangelical Christians here.

Impossible. Evangelical atheist is an oxymoron.

[atxrocker]

So you are open, then, to the possibility of hell?

I refuse to turn this into that type of thread. A 3 year old kid was beat to death, let's discuss that instead.

[Don Quixote]

You mean to say that there are no atheists known for their militant and crusading zeal? None?

In studying the movement, I've found them to be getting more bold. Atheism used to be an academic and intellectual movement which didn't have much influence in the "real world." We're talking Renaissance and Enlightenment here -- most of the common folk were theists. As atheism became a more mainstream movement, regular average joes have picked it up, which is fine, but it's alot more socially acceptable today to be one than it used to be. And it should come as no surprise that they've become alot more bold and aggressive. Read Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Daniel Dennett, et al. And all of them have made it their life's work to destroying belief in God (read the foreword to Dawkins' latest book) -- so, they are very evangelical in that regard.

[Don Quixote]

I refuse to turn this into that type of thread. A 3 year old kid was beat to death, let's discuss that instead.

Okay, fine. This creep is going to hell for beating this kid to death.

[tlongII]

You mean to say that there are no atheists known for their militant and crusading zeal? None?

In studying the movement, I've found them to be getting more bold. Atheism used to be an academic and intellectual movement which didn't have much influence in the "real world." We're talking Renaissance and Enlightenment here -- most of the common folk were theists. As atheism became a more mainstream movement, regular average joes have picked it up, which is fine, but it's alot more socially acceptable today to be one than it used to be. And it should come as no surprise that they've become alot more bold and aggressive. Read Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Daniel Dennett, et al. And all of them have made it their life's work to destroying belief in God (read the foreword to Dawkins' latest book) -- so, they are very evangelical in that regard.

I think you need to revisit the definition of "evangelical."

[Don Quixote]

Hey ... you're the one giving me Webster's, doofis! Definition 5 -- somebody with militant or crusading zeal.

[tlongII]

Hey ... you're the one giving me Webster's, doofis! Definition 5 -- somebody with militant or crusading zeal.

5: marked by militant or crusading zeal : evangelistic <the evangelical ardor of the movement's leaders

I wouldn't call atheism a "movement", but I can see your point.

[Spurfect]

absolutely disgusting. anyone that is capable of BEATING a CHILD to death is a sick inhumane individual that should not ever be let out into society again. Someone that is capable of doing that, is capable of doing anything just as/even more horrific. that man should never see the light of day again. leave him in solitary confinement for life. let him go crazy. that is just sick.

[Don Quixote]

Well, the guy was toked up on cocaine. Like they say, "it's a helluva drug."

But yes, this man is going to have to face the music for this, in the courtroom, in prison, and eternally.

[Extra Stout]

Ladies and gentlemen of ST ... we have a time and space traveler!

Come behold the first human being to successfully step outside of space and time as we know it -- ATXrocksmoker!:lol In his latest trip outside of the bounds of the universe, he was able to determine that there is, indeed, no hell. No word on how he was able to determine this.

So, tell us ... rocker, do the Spurs repeat this year?
The subjunctive mood can connote uncertainty rather than contraindication. atxrocker should be advised, however, that the verb "to be" is unique in the English language in that it is conjugated differently in the subjunctive mood, such that the grammatically correct form is, "I wish there were a hell."

[Don Quixote]

And I'm saying, there IS a hell! So this guy will get his.

Good news, right?