Adande: “Torch Passes from Duncan to Ginobili”

[Ockham]

Has anyone read Adande’s article in today’s dime? Here’s the link:


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dime

Slowly But Surely, Torch Passes From Duncan To Ginobili

SAN ANTONIO -- Tim Duncan is underrated and Tim Duncan is overrated.

We don't give his career the full respect it deserves, yet sometimes we make the mistake of believing that, in 2008, the San Antonio Spurs are still about him. As Game 3 of the Western Conference Finals demonstrated, Manu Ginobili matters more than Duncan now. Ginobili returned to form, hitting for five 3-pointers and 30 points, and the Spurs got back into the win column with a 103-84 victory.

Duncan had 22 points, 21 rebounds and five assists, showing he's still the steady drumbeat. But now he's more a background percussionist like Ringo Starr than a showcase drummer like Sheila E. It was telling that when Ginobili was clearly off his game in Los Angeles, Spurs coach Gregg Popovich said he needed more from Tony Parker, not Duncan, even though Parker outscored Duncan 13-12 in Game 2.

Duncan's 30 points and 18 rebounds couldn't keep the Spurs from blowing a 20-point lead in Game 1. The Spurs didn't need any more than 16 points from him to beat the Hornets on the road in Game 7. They don't live and die with him anymore.

Other players still show deference to Duncan, as when Bruce Bowen said, "If we didn't have him out there, Tony and Manu and I wouldn't get what we get", but it was telling that the Spurs felt the need to mix up their offense and avoid predictably giving Duncan the ball every time downcourt in Game 3. Almost as telling as what Duncan himself said about Ginobili.

"He's the guy that we need to put the ball in the hole," Duncan said. "He needs to give us points that aren't easy. You can get up in situations where your offense stalls out or situations where you just can't put the ball in the hole. He is the kind of guy that we need to make plays for us."

Ginobili came through like a T1 connection Sunday, especially during a minute-long stretch in the second quarter when he scored nine points on a pair of 3-pointers and a layup-and-one.

Parker led the Spurs in scoring last season, the first time since 1998 Duncan wasn't atop that category. This year it was Ginobili, averaging 19.5 points per game.

"I had a great season this year scoring, so if you score so many points during the season then the team expects you to keep it up," Ginobili said.

He did it against the Hornets last series, leading the Spurs with a scoring average of 21.3 points, but he looked limited in the first two games against the Lakers, hobbling along with a bad ankle and trying to shoot with a torn fingernail that Kobe Bryant described as "nasty-looking" and "disgusting."

Ginobili said there weren't any physical changes this night, just the danger of being down 2-0 in the series, the loud hometown fans and the fact his first couple of shots went down.

The answer reveals why Ginobili doesn't rank higher in NBA lore. The greatest thrive in road playoff games. They can be judged just as easily by the still-high quality of their bad nights as much as their big nights. In these playoffs alone Ginobili has had shooting nights of 2 for 11, 5 for 15 and 5 for 13. In last year's playoffs he had pedestrian numbers of 16.7 points and 3.7 assists per game on 40 percent shooting during the Spurs' championship run.

Where does Duncan rank? How about second to Shaquille O'Neal among active playoff scorers --- and 31 points away from moving past Wilt Chamberlain into 12th place among the all-time playoff scorers. And he'll get there in about 10 fewer games than Big Wilt played.

People talk about the Spurs as four-time champions. Wrong. Tim Duncan is a four-time champion. Every other player from the 1999 team is gone. Only two other players are still in the league (Antonio Daniels and Malik Rose).

Even among the greatest of the greats, not many can say they won championships with an entirely different supporting cast. Ask Bill Russell which rings he prefers to wear from his extensive collection and he'll tell you the first and the 11th, because he's the only player who has both of them. Magic Johnson had Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Michael Cooper every step of the way. Michael Jordan always had Scottie Pippen.

Here's the list of players who have won multiple Finals MVPs since they gave out the first one in 1969: Abdul-Jabbar, Johnson, Larry Bird, Jordan, Hakeem Olajuwon, O'Neal and Duncan.

Only Duncan and Abdul-Jabbar won the award with completely different support casts.

Looking at all of the names on that list makes you realize we sell Duncan short when we refer to him as the best power forward of all time. He really should be in the conversation of best big man -- period -- part of the argument along with Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem and Shaq.

The one thing you can't call him, though, is The Man for the 2007 Spurs. That title belongs to Ginobili. In that case, make it El Hombre.

I’m glad that he has some terrific things to say about Ginobili, and some extreme praise for Duncan toward the end. (He claims that Duncan belongs in the same conversation with Russell, Chamberlain, and Kareem. I agree.)

Nevertheless, I was surprised to see this near the top:

“We don't give [Duncan’s] career the full respect it deserves, yet sometimes we make the mistake of believing that, in 2008, the San Antonio Spurs are still about him. As Game 3 of the Western Conference Finals demonstrated, Manu Ginobili matters more than Duncan now.”

Now, I don’t care what the media perceives the Spurs’ pecking order to be. And I’m sure the Spurs themselves care even less than me. I just think it’s a very shortsighted article with little evidence in its favor. Recall that Ginobili played well but Duncan did not in the Game 1 loss to New Orleans, and Duncan played well but Ginobili did not in the Game 5 win over Phoenix.

Moreover, I’m always surprised at how the media seems to undervalue rebounding and interior defense—something a healthy Duncan always gives us even if he doesn’t score 20+.

In any event, how nice is it to have a dynamic duo—make that trio—that isn’t worried about hierarchy? I love being a Spurs fan.

[Sigz]

Wow a steady drumbeat eh?
Duncan had 22 points, 21 rebounds and five assists, showing he's still the steady drumbeat

No if Dwight Howard would have gotten that stat line, writers and reporters would have been sucking off of his jock for a week.

[SouthernFried]

Let 'em think what they will. The only consistent about the Sportswriters I've read, is they consistently don't know what they're talking about.

[Russ]

That torch passed in June of '05. :flag:

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Bullshit. Nice praise on Manu, but Duncan has meant more to the success of the Spurs this post season than Manu has. Hell, even Parker has been more instrumental. Sorry, but it is what it is. Manu is Manu and I love him, but this is STILL Duncan's team.

[mystargtr34]

I thought it was a really well written article...

I think he could have done a bit of a better job getting his point across... but basically the point is that Manu is really the barometer of this team and to a lesser extend its not all about Tim Duncan (which has been evident to anyone following the Spurs closer than box scores since about 2005)... Tony has established himself as one of the games top players on a consistent basis... as has Manu of course.... but when Manu plays on top of his game... this team morphs into a ompletely different animal.

[nikegirl]

Oh hell no. This team starts and ends with Tim Duncan. And that's not a knock on Manu. It's just that Tim is Tim and he is irreplaceable.

[nfg3]

Once again people fail to understand how this team is constructed. Without TD Manu would never get the types of looks he gets on a regular basis. He will have those great games now and then but not consistently. TD's presence is the reason for the success of the Spurs and Manu. Without the double teams on TD it would be harder for Manu to get the driving lanes he has now IMO. And I would be willing to bet that Manu himself would say the same thing.

What I'm seeing on the floor is how instrumental TD is in how the opposing team sets up their game plan. All of the TNT announcers have stated that the Lakers have no answer for TD just like the Spurs really have no answer for Kobe. When the opposiong team concentrates on TD that opens up so many options for Manu, Tony and the rsst of the team. An that's how Pop constructed this team - inside/out.

[SPARKY]

TD obviously remains the foundation for this team. Manu started getting the rock in crunch time situations a couple seasons ago.

[Russ]

TD is the rock solid foundation. But Manu is the "heart and soul" of the Spurs.

[timvp]

Bullshit. Nice praise on Manu, but Duncan has meant more to the success of the Spurs this post season than Manu has. Hell, even Parker has been more instrumental. Sorry, but it is what it is. Manu is Manu and I love him, but this is STILL Duncan's team.:tu

That article is a joke. The national media is just crazy these days. First they basically blamed Ginobili for the Game 2 loss when it wasn't anywhere near his fault. Now all of a sudden he has passed Duncan in importance? WTF ?:lol

Yeah, Ginobili was the best player on the Spurs in the regular season. But this is the playoffs now. Duncan, even when his numbers are ugly, is involved in just about every possession on both ends of the court.

Ginobili is a great player and when he's at his rolling he's a top five player in the NBA but the Spurs are best when they don't depend on his production. Ginobili's one flaw as a player is his inconsistency and the Spurs would be in trouble if they need Ginobili to be great every game to win.

I do agree with Duncan that Ginobili's biggest value to the team is scoring when baskets become hard to get and the pressure is on. Ginobili is the ultimate x-factor.

[DarrinS]

Without Tim's defense and rebounds, where are the Spurs?


There's more to basketball than scoring points.

[ElNono]

Adande needs to take the torch and shove it up his ass. I'm sure he hated the fact he had to write an article about the Spurs to start with.

[JamStone]

Plus it's kinda difficult to "pass the torch" when the players are basically the same age. Manu's only a year younger and with his style of play and the pounding his body takes, he will likely retire the same time as Duncan, maybe even sooner.

[samikeyp]

Sorry, but it is what it is. Manu is Manu and I love him, but this is STILL Duncan's team.

And Ginobili would be the first one to say so.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

:tu

That article is a joke. The national media is just crazy these days. First they basically blamed Ginobili for the Game 2 loss when it wasn't anywhere near his fault. Now all of a sudden he has passed Duncan in importance? WTF ?:lol

Yeah, Ginobili was the best player on the Spurs in the regular season. But this is the playoffs now. Duncan, even when his numbers are ugly, is involved in just about every possession on both ends of the court.



Agreed. The media flip flopping has gotten ridiculous of late.

[DarrinS]

Plus it's kinda difficult to "pass the torch" when the players are basically the same age. Manu's only a year younger and with his style of play and the pounding his body takes, he will likely retire the same time as Duncan, maybe even sooner.


Truth

[MaNuMaNiAc]

And Ginobili would be the first one to say so.

which is the main reason why he's my favorite player in this team.

[bigfundamental21]

It's good to see Duncan get some praise, but I agree that this is and will always be Duncan's team. Manu can do great things, as we saw last night, and he plays with passion, which is contagious, but all things begin and end with Duncan.

Best thing is that we get to enjoy both of them on our team and then you throw in Parker. Hopefully, the three of them can lead this team to a win tomorrow night to tie up the series.

GO SPURS GO!

BELIEVE!

[m33p0]

22/21/5 statline kinda makes his assertions difficult to accept.

[urunobili]

Bullshit. Nice praise on Manu, but Duncan has meant more to the success of the Spurs this post season than Manu has. Hell, even Parker has been more instrumental. Sorry, but it is what it is. Manu is Manu and I love him, but this is STILL Duncan's team.

:tu

[Whisky Dog]

It appears this playoff year that Manu sucking = Spurs lose. It is what it is. Need 7 more superstar games from him this season.

[pawe]

I would say TD and Manu is almost equally as important to the Spurs right now than TP. TD with his presence on the inside, passing and leadership and Manu on the perimeter with his heart and IQ. No matter who the alpha dog is, Im just thankful we have the big 3.

[TDMVPDPOY]

without duncans 21rebs this wouldve been a loss.....cause no one, NO ONE can fukn reb

[naico]

Adande is u dumbass..He's desperatly trying to diss Tim Duncan. Sure u can praise Manu, he had a terrific game. So sure u can concentrate on him to write ur article. But to say Manu is holding the 'Torch' of the Spurs in these playoffs is crazy. And that would still be ok with me in, id swallow it.

The thing that really bothers me is, he's using Manu's performence to diss Duncan. Forget about the lil' compliments towards Duncan, in between lines its clear he has a problem with Timmy. And thats just really sad and pathetic. His goal wasn't to praise Manu, but to diss Timmy.

I said it!

[kace]

i think this article is a joke. it's one of the most stupid and biased article i've ever seen.

and it should make some manu's fans stop their paranoïa about manu not being praised or loved when this kind of article is obviously overrating him.

manu is a great player, i love him and i hope he will maintain his level till the end of these PO. but in these PO, except 2 or 3 games, he was simply horrible. how could you say he's our main man when he basically did nothing to help us in these PO ? i mean in this regular season, maybe, but in these PO ?? where it's the most important ?? where was he ?

Tim is the foundation of this team and TP is probably our best player in these PO. so, i guess the writer is a manu fan, which is good, and was waiting for a great performance from him to bring his article.

anyway, to see him perform like this in G3 was really great and it is definitely a good thing for the spurs to have our big three at full strenght.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

i think this article is a joke. it's one of the most stupid and biased article i've ever seen.

and it should make some manu's fans stop their paranoïa about manu not being praised or loved when this kind of article is obviously overrating him.

manu is a great player, i love him and i hope he will maintain his level till the end of these PO. but in these PO, except 2 or 3 games, he was simply horrible. how could you say he's our main man when he basically did nothing to help us in these PO ? i mean in this regular season, maybe, but in these PO ?? where it's the most important ?? where was he ?

Tim is the foundation of this team and TP is probably our best player in these PO. so, i guess the writer is a manu fan, which is good, and was waiting for a great performance from him to bring his article.

anyway, to see him perform like this in G3 was really great and it is definitely a good thing for the spurs to have our big three at full strenght.

wow... ok...

For one, Manu hasn't been horrible during these playoffs. I agree he hasn't been his usual self, and there have been games where you just want to strangle him! but just as you dislike Manu fans overreacting to a great game by Manu, your ramble here doesn't paint you in a good picture either. To say he has done nothing to help us in these PO's is just idiotic non sense. You'd do well to check it at the door before you come in here.

P.s.

"anyway, to see him perform like this in G3 was really great and it is definitely a good thing for the spurs to have our big three at full strenght"

I just love this lame attempt at a disclaimer, as if saying it will distract from all the bullshit he spewed before it :lol

[TMTTRIO]

As much as I love Manu, we all know that Tim is the foundation on this team and is one of the best PF to ever play the game. He makes it a lot easier on Tony and Manu too and even they'll tell you that. Manu was great last night. When he plays like that it seems to really have an effect on the rest of the team. As much as I would love for Manu to be consistant, Manu is too inconsistant. I don't think he's going to play like he did tonight during tommorow's game but as long as he can contribute and not make bad decisions it'll be ok. Manu is a great player but he can be replaced unlike TD. Sometimes I think the Spurs do rely on Manu too much when they need him to do something or save them.

[diego]

adande is on the "40 stupid articles in 40 nights" challenge, luckily for him, time is on his side.

you got to give him credit though, he's managing to add a little more stupid to every new article!

[Red Hawk #21]

Tim Duncan is a beast, Tim Duncan is a warrior, Tim Duncan is a hero, Tim Duncan is a basketball god. Period.

[Emanuel20]

Stupid, we would not be here without manu and tim so I say they are very important to the team.

[kace]

wow... ok...

For one, Manu hasn't been horrible during these playoffs. I agree he hasn't been his usual self, and there have been games where you just want to strangle him! but just as you dislike Manu fans overreacting to a great game by Manu, your ramble here doesn't paint you in a good picture either. To say he has done nothing to help us in these PO's is just idiotic non sense. You'd do well to check it at the door before you come in here.



man, i think that, considering that each of our big three needs to take a lot of shots and make them at a decent % in order for us to win, manu has made us lose more often than win in these PO. Each of our big three will take 15 + shots per game, and if one of them is taking them at 30 %, like manu did a lot in these PO, it kills us. it's maybe unfair, considering that there's no one outside the big 3 that has really helped us in losses, but it is what it is and it's what this team is all about.

and even when tim and tp were cold in offense, they did a great job in defense, tim as usual, and TP has really stepped us to contain nash, paul and fisher. in the same time, manu has been a liability in almost every matchup on defense for us in these PO.

i guess you can disagree with me without being haughty.


I just love this lame attempt at a disclaimer, as if saying it will distract from all the bullshit he spewed before it :lol

i don't need your approval to say that i love manu and that i found him great in the last game. when he plays like that, and not like he did in most of the previous games these PO, and when the others 2 are playing good, we're very tough to beat. i don't need either to be argentine or to be a blind groupie who thinks manu is the main player of our team, which is the point of this stupid article, to be a manu's fan, which, like it or not, i am and always was since he played in europe.

[smeagol]

Bullshit. Nice praise on Manu, but Duncan has meant more to the success of the Spurs this post season than Manu has. Hell, even Parker has been more instrumental. Sorry, but it is what it is. Manu is Manu and I love him, but this is STILL Duncan's team.

Agreed, but it looks like Manu needs to play weel for the Spurs to win. Duncam can play well and the Spurs still lose.

[Emanuel20]

Agreed, but it looks like Manu needs to play weel for the Spurs to win. Duncam can play well and the Spurs still lose.

That's correct b/c no other player is picking up the points when manu is off.....

[ShoogarBear]

For the 9,345,349th time:

Tim Duncan is the only irreplaceable player on the Spurs.

You can substitute other players to do what everybody else does.

Nobody else in the NBA could do what he does.

[kace]

Agreed, but it looks like Manu needs to play weel for the Spurs to win. Duncam can play well and the Spurs still lose.

maybe it's because we need each one of our big three to play well in order to win. and since tim and tony are usually playing well in these PO, it's easy to understand that when manu is doing the same, we have a great chance to win.
i find it strange to conclude from this easy equation that it's manu who is making us win.

[Emanuel20]

maybe it's because we need each one of our big three to play well in order to win. and since tim and tony are usually playing well in these PO, it's easy to understand that when manu is doing the same, we have a great chance to win.
i find it strange to conclude from this easy equation that it's manu who is making us win.

Well, if we go by this logic, since everyone blamed Manu for the first 2 losses, everyone should praise Manu for game 3 and then whatever follows.

Idiotic.....

[PlayoffEx-static]

Hey, J.A., 2005 wants it's story back.

[Ghazi]

Duncan is the greatest power forward of all time, Manu is one of the top shooting guards in the game today but not even in the discussion of all time greats. It's Duncan's team, Duncan is the foundation, the straw that stirs the drink if you will. Ginobili is a necessary ingredient of the drink.

[kace]

Well, if we go by this logic, since everyone blamed Manu for the first 2 losses, everyone should praise Manu for game 3 and then whatever follows.

Idiotic.....

i hope everybody will praise manu for his great game. i do. :toast

[mrspurs]

of all the players we got....duncan has shown his age more then the others....but he is still a great downlow defender....duncans problem this season is, he doesnt havnt any help what so ever downlow....duncan is surrounded by a bunch of choke artists and has beens.....you have to give it up to duncan...anyone else in the league forced to play with big scrubs would have quit trying so hard..............go spurs go

[nfg3]

For the 9,345,349th time:

Tim Duncan is the only irreplaceable player on the Spurs.

You can substitute other players to do what everybody else does.

Nobody else in the NBA could do what he does.

Ding Ding Ding

The debate should now be over FOREVER.

[roycrikside]

Has anyone read Adande’s article in today’s dime? Here’s the link:



I’m glad that he has some terrific things to say about Ginobili, and some extreme praise for Duncan toward the end. (He claims that Duncan belongs in the same conversation with Russell, Chamberlain, and Kareem. I agree.)

Nevertheless, I was surprised to see this near the top:

“We don't give [Duncan’s] career the full respect it deserves, yet sometimes we make the mistake of believing that, in 2008, the San Antonio Spurs are still about him. As Game 3 of the Western Conference Finals demonstrated, Manu Ginobili matters more than Duncan now.”

Now, I don’t care what the media perceives the Spurs’ pecking order to be. And I’m sure the Spurs themselves care even less than me. I just think it’s a very shortsighted article with little evidence in its favor. Recall that Ginobili played well but Duncan did not in the Game 1 loss to New Orleans, and Duncan played well but Ginobili did not in the Game 5 win over Phoenix.

Moreover, I’m always surprised at how the media seems to undervalue rebounding and interior defense—something a healthy Duncan always gives us even if he doesn’t score 20+.

In any event, how nice is it to have a dynamic duo—make that trio—that isn’t worried about hierarchy? I love being a Spurs fan.


I think the reason most people feel the team will go the way Manu goes is because they take Tim for granted. He's too consistent in the playoffs for his own good, especially with his rebounding and defense. Duncan's numbers suggested he struggled a lot against the Hornets, but they doubled him like 90% of the time. If any opponent plays him straight up, it's pretty much a given that Timmy will find a way to get 20+ points.

Manu throughout his postseason career has never been as consistent, for a variety of reasons. His role fluctuates, his minutes fluctuate, he doesn't look to get himself going as much if the other guys are doing fine without him, injuries, and finally, sometimes he just flat out stinks. If Manu got 25+ points every playoff game the Spurs would probably have an easier time of it, but that's a lot to ask of anyone. Plus he doesn't come into games knowing he's going to take 18 shots a night, minimum, like Kobe.

Timmy is still our best player and was so last night. For the Spurs to be champions Manu and Tony have to be in the conversation though.

[boutons_]

What would Manu's 30 been worth if he weren't standing the shoulders of Tim's 20-20?

ZILCH

[dbreiden83080]

Uh no sorry that is bullshit right there. He can't do it by himself against a team this good. Jordan does not have 6 rings if Pippen played like shit in playoff series. Duncan had 30 and 18 in game 1 and if Manu had just been decent and not awful they would have won that game. Spurs don't need Manu to be great to win the series but he has to be conistantly good.

[roycrikside]

i think this article is a joke. it's one of the most stupid and biased article i've ever seen.

and it should make some manu's fans stop their paranoïa about manu not being praised or loved when this kind of article is obviously overrating him.

manu is a great player, i love him and i hope he will maintain his level till the end of these PO. but in these PO, except 2 or 3 games, he was simply horrible. how could you say he's our main man when he basically did nothing to help us in these PO ? i mean in this regular season, maybe, but in these PO ?? where it's the most important ?? where was he ?

Tim is the foundation of this team and TP is probably our best player in these PO. so, i guess the writer is a manu fan, which is good, and was waiting for a great performance from him to bring his article.

anyway, to see him perform like this in G3 was really great and it is definitely a good thing for the spurs to have our big three at full strenght.

The French flag says it all, I think. Manu led the team in scoring and assists against the Hornets, so I don't think he was uh "horrible." I very much doubt you love Manu. Basically you wrote that unless he scores 30 in a playoff game, he sucks.

[TDfan2007]

:tu

That article is a joke. The national media is just crazy these days. First they basically blamed Ginobili for the Game 2 loss when it wasn't anywhere near his fault. Now all of a sudden he has passed Duncan in importance? WTF ?:lol

Yeah, Ginobili was the best player on the Spurs in the regular season. But this is the playoffs now. Duncan, even when his numbers are ugly, is involved in just about every possession on both ends of the court.

Ginobili is a great player and when he's at his rolling he's a top five player in the NBA but the Spurs are best when they don't depend on his production. Ginobili's one flaw as a player is his inconsistency and the Spurs would be in trouble if they need Ginobili to be great every game to win.

I do agree with Duncan that Ginobili's biggest value to the team is scoring when baskets become hard to get and the pressure is on. Ginobili is the ultimate x-factor.


:tu

I completely agree. Manu played poorly during many games in these playoffs and we still found a way to win. Our losses against LA were a team effort and although Manu playing poorly was a reason for our losses, we lost as a team.

National beat writers like Adande don't get basketball I guess, because anyone who did would realize that Tim does just about EVERY little thing that we need to win. He clogs the lane, makes great passes both in the offense and out of double teams, scores at will in the post, and rebounds. Even when Tim struggles scoring-wise he always has a positive overall impact to the game because of the many ways he helps this team (see game 7 against NO).

Most importantly, it's Tim's unending trust in his teammates that has allowed for a good portion of Tony and Manu's development. He will NEVER hesistate to pass out of a double team or pass up any kind of shot if his teammate has a better one.

I'm all for giving Manu and Tony their credit but let's not get carried away. The Spurs are Tim's team.

[kace]

The French flag says it all, I think. Manu led the team in scoring and assists against the Hornets, so I don't think he was uh "horrible." I very much doubt you love Manu. Basically you wrote that unless he scores 30 in a playoff game, he sucks.

against NO, manu was at 21.3 ppg but at 43.5 % (and with 1.5 ppg coming from FT after technical fouls or fouls at the end of the games when the opposite team had to foul). he had basically no one to defend and when he had to (Peja or peterson), he failed.

Tony was at 19.4 ppg at 48.6 % (44.4 % from 3pts line). he had to defend CP3 and was able to contain him.

Tim was bad on offense but as usual was great in defense and had 13 rpg.

so, if you didn't see that manu played poorly in these PO, probably because of his injuries and his poor way to deal with it, i can't do anything for you.

i really liked the few games when he was good and i know for sure that a manu at his best could be a lethal weapon for us, as he often was in RS. i will be the first to appreciate if he's able to keep his G3 level till the end of the PO.

but it wasn't the point of my post to bash manu. i just said this fucking article was stupid, especially in these PO.

oh, and if you can judge me and what i think only by knowing my nationality, please stop answering my posts, it would be wasted time for all two obviously.

[wildbill2u]

Cleveland is a one man show. Lakers are Kobe and the Rest.

The Spurs are a tripod. Take away any leg and the whole thing falls.

[Emanuel20]

Cleveland is a one man show. Lakers are Kobe and the Rest.

The Spurs are a tripod. Take away any leg and the whole thing falls.

I will say "BINGO"!
:lobt2:

[roycrikside]

against NO, manu was at 21.3 ppg but at 43.5 % (and with 1.5 ppg coming from FT after technical fouls or fouls at the end of the games when the opposite team had to foul). he had basically no one to defend and when he had to (Peja or peterson), he failed.

Tony was at 19.4 ppg at 48.6 % (44.4 % from 3pts line). he had to defend CP3 and was able to contain him.

Tim was bad on offense but as usual was great in defense and had 13 rpg.

so, if you didn't see that manu played poorly in these PO, probably because of his injuries and his poor way to deal with it, i can't do anything for you.

i really liked the few games when he was good and i know for sure that a manu at his best could be a lethal weapon for us, as he often was in RS. i will be the first to appreciate he he's able to keep his G3 level till the end of the PO.

but it wasn't the point of my post to bash manu. i just said this fucking article was stupid, especially in these PO.

oh, and if you can judge me and what i think only by knowing my nationality, please stop answering my posts, it would be wasted time for us all two obvioulsy.<<

First of all, you can't say he had nobody to defend. He defended whoever he was supposed to and except for the first two games against Peja, he did fine. It's not like the Hornets were isolating Peterson on him one-on-one because Manu is such a liability on defense.

Secondly I think saying that Tony "contained" Paul is revisionist history. Paul had a dominant series. We beat that team because we shut down everyone else. A lot of the time we had a big come over to contest a Paul lay-up after he blew by Tony and guess what happens then? Alley-oop to Chandler.

Finally, judging a player by shooting % is pretty foolish. Not all field goal attempts are the same. Manu took a lot of 3 pt attempts against the Hornets because of how they were playing defense. A guy who shoots 40% from 3 is like a guy shooting 60% from two. Do the math. I think it's pretty silly to expect Manu to shoot 50% plus when more than half of his attempts were threes.

You look like a total dumbass saying "I wish Manu could be as good in every playoff game like he was in the regular season." The regular season is 82 games. He had a lot of good games, but he sprinkled a few clunkers in there as well, as all players do. It's the totality of it that shows what kind of a player somebody is, not any one individual game. For the playoffs overall Manu is avg. 19.1 points (compared to 19.5 in the RS), even with some of the bad games he's had, so I think he's been doing okay.

I wish Manu could be more consistent, but consistency means getting 20 every night, not 30. He's not Kobe. Whether you get 40 in two games by getting 20+20 or it's 10 + 30, it still = 40 in two games and 20 ppg. You have to accept with Manu it's going to be more of a 10/30 thing than a 20/20 thing like Timmy.

[lefty]

Adande : " Torch passes from my ass to my vagina trough my uterus "

[200 miles]

this team is powered by three
this team is led by only one, #21

btw, if there was a torch to be passed, it would be passed in a few years from Duncan to Tiago, just like from DRob to Duncan

[Fizzzar]

Pop said it best when he talked about the sensacionalism (sp?) in the american media.

[kace]

<<

First of all, you can't say he had nobody to defend. He defended whoever he was supposed to and except for the first two games against Peja, he did fine. It's not like the Hornets were isolating Peterson on him one-on-one because Manu is such a liability on defense.

i said manu was a liability in defense IN THESE PO. it's what i think, and i know he can be a very decent defender.


Secondly I think saying that Tony "contained" Paul is revisionist history. Paul had a dominant series. We beat that team because we shut down everyone else. A lot of the time we had a big come over to contest a Paul lay-up after he blew by Tony and guess what happens then? Alley-oop to Chandler.

i think if we all praise Bruce, our best defender and one of the best of the league, to "only" concede 26.3 ppg at 56 % to kobe, we could say that Tony wasn't so bad conceding Paul 23.7 ppg at 50 %, with "only" for him 10.7 apg for 2.3 TO (compared to 12 apg and 1.2 tpg he had against the mavs)(even if, in the two cases, for bruce and tony, it is also a team effort)


Finally, judging a player by shooting % is pretty foolish. Not all field goal attempts are the same. Manu took a lot of 3 pt attempts against the Hornets because of how they were playing defense. A guy who shoots 40% from 3 is like a guy shooting 60% from two. Do the math. I think it's pretty silly to expect Manu to shoot 50% plus when more than half of his attempts were threes.

Manu missed a lot of shots and made a lot of bad choices and TO till now in these PO. i didn't like it, i hope it will stop, but you can't deny the facts


You look like a total dumbass saying "I wish Manu could be as good in every playoff game like he was in the regular season." The regular season is 82 games. He had a lot of good games, but he sprinkled a few clunkers in there as well, as all players do. It's the totality of it that shows what kind of a player somebody is, not any one individual game.

OK. so saying "i know for sure that a manu at his best could be a lethal weapon for us, as he often was in RS" is the same thing as "I wish Manu could be as good in every playoff game like he was in the regular season." please, be serious. :rolleyes



I wish Manu could be more consistent, but consistency means getting 20 every night, not 30. He's not Kobe. Whether you get 40 in two games by getting 20+20 or it's 10 + 30, it still = 40 in two games and 20 ppg. You have to accept with Manu it's going to be more of a 10/30 thing than a 20/20 thing like Timmy.

i like manu as he is. but in these PO manu hadn't been himself most of the times.

but the real question is why do you want to lead me in a manu's bashing ? or in this fucking stupid manu vs tony thing ?

i was just saying that this article saying manu was our main man, especially brought in these PO, was stupid. a lot of posters said the same. but you can disagree.

[Emanuel20]

Wow.. it's becoming painful to even ignore you!
Both of them have helped us be where were are today and none of them is liability to the team. THEY ARE ASSESTS to the team.


Assets (Timmy, Tony & MAnu) = Liability (Booner, JV, Damon) + Owners' Equity( Peter Holt & POP)

[kace]

Wow.. it's becoming painful to even ignore you!
Both of them have helped us be where were are today and none of them is liability to the team. THEY ARE ASSESTS to the team.


Assets (Timmy, Tony & MAnu) = Liability (Booner, JV, Damon) + Owners' Equity( Peter Holt & POP)


hey, i said manu was a liability in defense and in these PO till now. just as Finley.

i know what manu is to this team. 3 less trophies without him and definitely not any this year if he isn't at a good level. don't make me say things i didn't say.

[Solid D]

Not much mentioned about Duncan on the other half of the floor...the end of the floor where Russell was great. "Anchor" comes to mind, as does "intimidation" and "alteration".

Offensively, the Spurs only have 2 players who can create shots for themselves anywhere from the arc inward, when everything else shuts down. Parker and Ginobili. The Spurs need them both on offense to keep the 12-0 runs for opponents to a minimum.

Duncan can at least "anchor" the defense when nobody else can...so in that regard, Duncan stands alone as the Torch-Holder. I don't think he has passed the Torch yet.

[Brutalis]

Let 'em think what they will. The only consistent about the Sportswriters I've read, is they consistently don't know what they're talking about.
Amen

[Emanuel20]

hey, i said manu was a liability in defense and in these PO till now. just as Finley.

i know what manu is to this team. 3 less trophies without him and definitely not any this year if he isn't at a good level. don't make me say things i didn't say.

well according to this:

"manu is a great player, i love him and i hope he will maintain his level till the end of these PO. but in these PO, except 2 or 3 games, he was simply horrible. how could you say he's our main man when he basically did nothing to help us in these PO ? i mean in this regular season, maybe, but in these PO ?? where it's the most important ?? where was he ?"

I extracted that you are making Ginobili look like a liability to the team.
I am sorry if I got the wrong massage from your supercilious post

[DAF86]

Duncan is the best player in the world by far. 'Cause he's the only player in the world that doesn't need to score to be a dominant player in a basketball game.

[greens]

:tu

That article is a joke. The national media is just crazy these days. First they basically blamed Ginobili for the Game 2 loss when it wasn't anywhere near his fault. Now all of a sudden he has passed Duncan in importance? WTF ?:lol

Yeah, Ginobili was the best player on the Spurs in the regular season. But this is the playoffs now. Duncan, even when his numbers are ugly, is involved in just about every possession on both ends of the court.

Ginobili is a great player and when he's at his rolling he's a top five player in the NBA but the Spurs are best when they don't depend on his production. Ginobili's one flaw as a player is his inconsistency and the Spurs would be in trouble if they need Ginobili to be great every game to win.

I do agree with Duncan that Ginobili's biggest value to the team is scoring when baskets become hard to get and the pressure is on. Ginobili is the ultimate x-factor.





Nice points. But the thing that I see most of the time is for some reason whenever Manu starts rolling, it seems to wake up all of his teammates. It energizes the entire team and the home crowd goes crazy. If you watch the Spurs players closely when Manu starts playing insanely good, you see they are much more pumped up, especially Timmy, who starts pumping his fists. There is just something unique about Manu that gives him the ability to suddenly make his teammates play better basketball.

Obviously, everything starts with Tim Duncan. He is the main man. However, from what I see, it just seems like because of the way that Manu plays, meaning his unique style, it just energizes the team a lot more when he is on. That's not to take anything away from Tim. I think all of his teammates, especially Tony and Manu, know that he is main guy on their team. Same with the fans, they appreciate what Timmy does.

[OldSilentHill]

Both are fundamental and Spurs will ne nothing without any of them.

Duncan is the solid and Manu the spirit.

[timvp]

Nice points. But the thing that I see most of the time is for some reason whenever Manu starts rolling, it seems to wake up all of his teammates. It energizes the entire team and the home crowd goes crazy. If you watch the Spurs players closely when Manu starts playing insanely good, you see they are much more pumped up, especially Timmy, who starts pumping his fists. There is just something unique about Manu that gives him the ability to suddenly make his teammates play better basketball.

Obviously, everything starts with Tim Duncan. He is the main man. However, from what I see, it just seems like because of the way that Manu plays, meaning his unique style, it just energizes the team a lot more when he is on. That's not to take anything away from Tim. I think all of his teammates, especially Tony and Manu, know that he is main guy on their team. Same with the fans, they appreciate what Timmy does.While it's true that the Spurs are better when Ginobili is rolling, I don't think that has anything to do with Ginobili being more important than Duncan, as the article is stating. There are a lot of players in the league who make their teammates better when they are rolling. For example, in the three series the Spurs have played in the playoffs, you can say the same exact things about Leandro Barbosa, Peja Stojakovic and Lamar Odom. When those three guys are playing well, their teammates and crowd get more into the game and their team becomes a lot better. Does that mean that Nash, Paul and Kobe have passed the torch?

Besides, it's shortchanging Manu to make him out to be some sort of energy players. He's a superstar when he's on his game. Duncan and the crowd get happy and excited when players like Brent Barry and Matt Bonner get rolling, too. Manu is more than that.

[Bob Lanier]

The Lakers should be more concerned about how Lamar Odom isn't finishing on those torch passes from Pau Gasol.

[greens]

While it's true that the Spurs are better when Ginobili is rolling, I don't think that has anything to do with Ginobili being more important than Duncan, as the article is stating. There are a lot of players in the league who make their teammates better when they are rolling. For example, in the three series the Spurs have played in the playoffs, you can say the same exact things about Leandro Barbosa, Peja Stojakovic and Lamar Odom. When those three guys are playing well, their teammates and crowd get more into the game and their team becomes a lot better. Does that mean that Nash, Paul and Kobe have passed the torch?

Besides, it's shortchanging Manu to make him out to be some sort of energy players. He's a superstar when he's on his game. Duncan and the crowd get happy and excited when players like Brent Barry and Matt Bonner get rolling, too. Manu is more than that.




Oh, I'm not saying that Manu is only an energy guy, of course, he's a lot more. He's a key player to the team. He's just as important as Timmy and Tony. My main point is that even if you listen to the interviews from Tim and Tony, a lot of the time they talk about Manu bringing in the much needed energy and aggression. They feed off of him. Maybe it's because Manu is a very passionate guy, hence, when he's rolling, the whole place is going nuts.

I don't think the article touches on this point. But do you also recall the prior articles that state that the Spurs go as far as Manu goes, when it comes to this series?

Personally, I don't like when everyone puts so much pressure on just one player, saying stuff like the team and the series will go as far as a certain player goes. That's not entirely true. Teams win games, not one player. It's that group effort, both defensively and offensively, that wins games. Especially in Manu's case, when he's playing with a bad ankle and bad finger, it's like all these articles are centered around him. When he is playing bad, it's all about him not delivering, putting the blame on himself. When he's rolling, it's all about him rolling. We don't get too many articles about TP and Timmy in this series vs the Lakers. It's just strange.

[ManuTim_best of Fwiendz]

He's just as important as Timmy and Tony. My main point is that even if you listen to the interviews from Tim and Tony, a lot of the time they talk about Manu bringing in the much needed energy and aggression. They feed off of him. Maybe it's because Manu is a very passionate guy, hence, when he's rolling, the whole place is going nuts.

I don't think the article touches on this point. But do you also recall the prior articles that state that the Spurs go as far as Manu goes, when it comes to this series?

These articles are just fluff and filler. I can say before Manu joined the squad and emerged in 2005 as the talent he is, the team gained a new dimension, and I could see him being considered the Spurs emotional leader.





He's a superstar when he's on his game. Duncan and the crowd get happy and excited when players like Brent Barry and Matt Bonner get rolling, too. Manu is more than that.

I would say so. In the Spurs locker room interview after game 3, Horry said if he had to make a list of all the all-time greats, teammates he's played with, Manu would be top 10 which is a very huge compliment, I was surprised he was so non-chalant about it.

[v2freak]

Is it just me or does Manu play well when Tim plays well? Tim always does a good job drawing attention/double teams and sealing off defenders, opening the lane up. Is it any coincidence that Tim and Manu's good games seemed almost coordinated during the 05 Finals? Good game 1, 2, 5, 6. Subpar games 3, 4. Amazing game 7

[ManuTim_best of Fwiendz]

Is it just me or does Manu play well when Tim plays well? Tim always does a good job drawing attention/double teams and sealing off defenders, opening the lane up. Is it any coincidence that Tim and Manu's good games seemed almost coordinated during the 05 Finals? Good game 1, 2, 5, 6. Subpar games 3, 4. Amazing game 7

Could be. They always seem to coincide. Even look at the stellar games of Manu in 2008 regular season, and Tim will have a solid 20 , 30 pt 10 + rebound game along side a Manu 40 point game or something which would be even considered above average games on Timmy's standards. :lol

22 points and 20 rebounds ain't too shabby.

[whottt]

Spurs won't be winning titles without Duncan or Manu...or Parker for that matter. It's stupid to single out one player as the guy that makes you win when it takes a team to win.

I don't care if you got the best player in history, he's not gonna win a title by himself. And given that, Duncan's ones of the few to win mutiple titles with entirely different casts...he and Shaq are the first to do it in a while.

That's not true of Jordan...or Magic, or Bird.


I just don't get articles that say one guy is the key to winning a title...making the playoffs maybe, winning titles? No way.


And even if torch is being passed it isn't going to last long...Manu is only like a year younger than Duncan and gets beat up a lot more often.


I hate articles by stupid journalists, that don't know the game, that don't even seem to know the age of the players.


It's like no one realizes Kobe's about to be 30 and shooting guard has the shortest shelf life of any position. You'd think the Lakers are all 22 or something listening to the media talk about their future...they always seem to leave out that part about the best player pushing 30.

[jackseven]

Duncan's numbers suggested he struggled a lot against the Hornets, but they doubled him like 90% of the time.


That's a pretty big copout. Duncan's #s mean he did struggle against the Hornets. NO actually let Chandler guard him one-on-one more than most teams single cover him. But even if they doubled him 90% of the time, how is that any different from what usually happens? There's nothing wrong with admitting Chandler had his number.

Adande must have gotten lazy and pulled up one of his drafts from the Hornets series. You don't write a torch passing article the game after someone puts up 20-20.

The most consistent of the big 3 is Duncan, but the way Parker, Manu, and Tim can seemlessly interchange as the team's MVP, I don't see the Spurs as anyone's team, but just a really good team where if one star isn't performing, the others usually fill in the void.

Duncan is usually pretty strong on defense and rebounding, but he has had several games where he didn't show up on the offensive end. Other times, he looks almost as unstoppable as his early years in the league.

Manu's defense has been pretty weak for the most part and some games he just doesn't have anything to give. Then, he goes to the extreme polar opposite and plays Jordanesque. With Manu you're just going to have to see if he's recharged and can play big minutes as the game goes on.

I thought Tony had put it all together, but again in this playoff run he has been invisible at times. But, like T&M, he can be spectacular for some games and make you think he's the best PG in the league.

It's a very unique team if you think about it, but it does help explain the flip-flopping because TT&M have such big variances in how they play in any given game. The media wants to go with one theme and then run with it so they don't know how to reconcile

"Tim is the best pf of all time."
"Parker is a top 3 pg in this league."
"GINOBILLLLIIII!"

when either/and TTM has a horrible game, disappears for a couple, or gets badly outplayed.

If it is still "Tim's team" then it has to be because of his defense and rebounding. Also, the definition of "Tim's team" would be significantly changed since his early years when if Tim ever slightly struggled the game was over.

I think it's more of a nostalgia thing for most fans as he layed the groundwork for the Spurs to become who they are. In the present, Duncan is the biggest overall contributor on the team, but the margin for making it his team is very slim when you consider

- Parker actually won finals MVP vs. Cavs
- when the Spurs need need crucial baskets, they look to Manu and Tony first
- Duncan struggled for almost an entire series in Rnd 2


If the torch passes on the Spurs, it's a game-to-game situation.

[HarlemHeat37]

you just explained it though..

of course the Spurs go to Manu and Parker in clutch time, the perimeter player is usually favored in that situation..the Celtics go to Pierce and Allen in clutch time, but neither guy is a bigger option than KG..Shaq was clearly the best option for LA, but they'll obviously go to Kobe in clutch time..

this article is bad, because of the REASONS the writer gave..those reasons don't mean Manu is the man, it means Manu is the x-factor..that's not what he meant, but that's what his reasons show me..if Duncan struggles, the Spurs are going to lose as well..

Duncan being double teamed is the main reason the Spurs beat NO though..Duncan struggled, nobody can deny that, but he was also the only one on the team being defended by a solid defender, and his double teams opened it up for Manu and the shooters, which is the main reason the Spurs won the series..

also, if Tim Duncan struggles offensively, he still affects the game in a dominant way..he's still one of the best defenders and rebounders in the game..he QB's our offense, he anchors our defense, he's the leader..if Manu and Parker aren't shooting well, the rest of their game falls off tremendously, especially Manu, who starts making terrible decisions..

it's rare for a team in the West to win riding 1 guy..Kobe is the best, and the Lakers couldn't ride him to a title the last few years..Duncan needs help, and he has it..but don't forget, Tim already carried an average team to a title in 2003 and he won a title with different players in 1999..that's where his respect comes from..

[nikegirl]

you just explained it though..

of course the Spurs go to Manu and Parker in clutch time, the perimeter player is usually favored in that situation..the Celtics go to Pierce and Allen in clutch time, but neither guy is a bigger option than KG..Shaq was clearly the best option for LA, but they'll obviously go to Kobe in clutch time..

this article is bad, because of the REASONS the writer gave..those reasons don't mean Manu is the man, it means Manu is the x-factor..that's not what he meant, but that's what his reasons show me..if Duncan struggles, the Spurs are going to lose as well..

Duncan being double teamed is the main reason the Spurs beat NO though..Duncan struggled, nobody can deny that, but he was also the only one on the team being defended by a solid defender, and his double teams opened it up for Manu and the shooters, which is the main reason the Spurs won the series..

also, if Tim Duncan struggles offensively, he still affects the game in a dominant way..he's still one of the best defenders and rebounders in the game..he QB's our offense, he anchors our defense, he's the leader..if Manu and Parker aren't shooting well, the rest of their game falls off tremendously, especially Manu, who starts making terrible decisions..

it's rare for a team in the West to win riding 1 guy..Kobe is the best, and the Lakers couldn't ride him to a title the last few years..Duncan needs help, and he has it..but don't forget, Tim already carried an average team to a title in 2003 and he won a title with different players in 1999..that's where his respect comes from..

I think you summed it up pretty well.

The team would never be in the position it's in if it wasn't for Tim mainly.

As one pointed out a page or so ago, the only irreplaceable piece of this puzzle is Tim.

[HarlemHeat37]

exactly..

NOBODY in the NBA can replace Duncan on this team..

Garnett is on Tim's level, but he doesn't play in the post often, which would make us a jump-shooting team..

Yao only plays half the season..

Dwight Howard doesn't know how to pass the ball effectively or lead a team yet, which would kill our entire system..

there isn't anybody in the NBA that can replace Duncan..

there are a number of players that can replace Ginobili..if you give us Kobe, we win a title every year..same with Dwyane Wade..same with McGrady..then you have A LOT of arguables left..

if you give us CP3 over Parker, or Deron over Parker, we win every title as well..

[ManuTastic]

Here's how it breaks down:
Tim is the engine. No Tim, no go.
Tony is the transmission. He puts the power on the road.
Manu? Manu is the turbo, baby!

[MadDog73]

And yet....

Parker won Finals MVP last year.


We have a great TEAM. I'm not sure any player is "replaceable."

Name a title, and I'll name you a "role-player" who is responsible for at least one crucial win.

(some examples)

2003: Steve Kerr against Dallas.
2005: Horry, game 5, against Pistons.

Now, does that make Kerr and Horry equal to Tim Duncan?!? No, of course not.

But I doubt we'd have won those titles without them.

To state the obvious: Teams win Championships. See 2004 Pistons over "dream-team" Lakers for evidence of that (keeping in mind, of course, Malone was hurt).

If the Spurs beat the Lakers, it's not because Manu > Tim (or vice-versa). It's because as a TEAM, Spurs > Lakers.


EDIT: Just to add, in case anybody sees this as a slam on Duncan, I think Tim's leadership is a big part of why the Spurs have a winning Team. Oh, and he's the best current big man in the NBA. That doesn't hurt.

[xapatan2]

Here's how it breaks down:
Tim is the engine. No Tim, no go.
Tony is the transmission. He puts the power on the road.
Manu? Manu is the turbo, baby!

+1

well sum up !

at this stage and after( conference finals) we just need THE THREE ( + Bruce + team defensive efforts + BRENT) to be at a rather good level of play to go further...

I am really happy that the MRI Manu had the last Saturday reboosted his confidence and took away the "fear" he had concerning his ankle...

Xap'

[HarlemHeat37]

And yet....

Parker won Finals MVP last year.


We have a great TEAM. I'm not sure any player is "replaceable."

Name a title, and I'll name you a "role-player" who is responsible for at least one crucial win.

(some examples)

2003: Steve Kerr against Dallas.
2005: Horry, game 5, against Pistons.

Now, does that make Kerr and Horry equal to Tim Duncan?!? No, of course not.

But I doubt we'd have won those titles without them.

To state the obvious: Teams win Championships. See 2004 Pistons over "dream-team" Lakers for evidence of that (keeping in mind, of course, Malone was hurt).

If the Spurs beat the Lakers, it's not because Manu > Tim (or vice-versa). It's because as a TEAM, Spurs > Lakers.


EDIT: Just to add, in case anybody sees this as a slam on Duncan, I think Tim's leadership is a big part of why the Spurs have a winning Team. Oh, and he's the best current big man in the NBA. That doesn't hurt.

definitely, but you can say that about every championship team..nobody wins alone, but I think it is logical to use the "replaceable/irreplaceable" theory..

[Thomas82]

Spurs won't be winning titles without Duncan or Manu...or Parker for that matter. It's stupid to single out one player as the guy that makes you win when it takes a team to win.

I don't care if you got the best player in history, he's not gonna win a title by himself. And given that, Duncan's ones of the few to win mutiple titles with entirely different casts...he and Shaq are the first to do it in a while. That's not true of Jordan...or Magic, or Bird.


I just don't get articles that say one guy is the key to winning a title...making the playoffs maybe, winning titles? No way.


And even if torch is being passed it isn't going to last long...Manu is only like a year younger than Duncan and gets beat up a lot more often.


I hate articles by stupid journalists, that don't know the game, that don't even seem to know the age of the players.


It's like no one realizes Kobe's about to be 30 and shooting guard has the shortest shelf life of any position. You'd think the Lakers are all 22 or something listening to the media talk about their future...they always seem to leave out that part about the best player pushing 30.


All of that is true, but remember, Tim Duncan won a championship before Manu Ginobilli and Tony Parker were even on the team. When the Spurs won the championship in 2003, Tony was still learning how to play (he was benched for Speedy Claxton in some crucial situations), and Manu was a rookie averaging 7 points a game off the bench.