Carter:Another Spur missed trade opportunity

[rascal]

Every year top stars in the league change teams for next to nothing (Carter for Mourning, E Williams, A Williams and two 1'st round picks) and the Spurs are never involved in any of these type of trades to get a proven star quality player for nothing more than matching contracts and unknown future draft picks.

Carter was another example of a missed Spur opportunity.

Rose, Barry and Bowen (offered first) or Rose and Manu could have been offered for Carter and it may have been enough to land a proven 20+ point scorer.

A team with Duncan, Parker, Manu (if Tor took the first deal) and Carter as its core players would make the spurs an even better team.

I'm sure many here are going to say they don't want Carter.
But did the spurs even consider trading for Carter? And why not if they didn't?

The spurs do nothing when it comes to trades to improve even when teams are looking to give away proven star players.

The spurs will always have one of the top regular season records as long as duncan is one of the best players in the league because there are such few big inside impact players in the league as duncan is and the teams that have these players will be the best teams in the league. Look at how miami has turned it around by adding an impact inside player.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

I find it interesting to see how many people are willing to just trade Manu for a proven star, when he has busted his ass for the team without complaint. I mean, he went through 2 seasons of being sixth man when he only should have gone one, having clearly proven his starter value during the beginning of last season. All the while not complaining at all, but instead doing everything he could to earn the respect of the San Antonio Spurs and their fans. I'm sorry, but I find the mere mention of trading Manu insulting not only to his personal fans, but to the integrity of this team, which is known for rewarding the players that bring them pride with loyalty and acceptance.

[Hook Dem]

I find it interesting to see how many people are willing to just trade Manu for a proven star, when he has busted his ass for the team without complaint. I mean, he went through 2 seasons of being sixth man when he only should have gone one, having clearly proven his starter value during the beginning of last season. All the while not complaining at all, but instead doing everything he could to earn the respect of the San Antonio Spurs and their fans. I'm sorry, but I find the mere mention of trading Manu insulting not only to his personal fans, but to the integrity of this team, which is known for rewarding the players that bring them pride with loyalty and acceptance.
Agreed 100 percent!

[RobinsontoDuncan]

manu is also cheep for his contributions, carter's contract would be a horrible burden

[ChumpDumper]

Carter is not worth it.

The Raptors might make the playoffs now that he's gone.

The Nets won't now that he's there.

How's that for impact?

[whottt]

I don't think so...not for half man, half the season :lol


Remeber when we played Toronto this year and were bitch slapping them out of their own building...

Until Carter went to the bench.

Rascal, if Vince is such a stud then the Nets will be title gold with he and Kidd on the same team...I think it's time for you to switch teams.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

manu is also cheep for his contributions, carter's contract would be a horrible burden

LOL Well, if sentimental reasoning does not work, you could always look at it from thiat perspective.! I agree

[Supergirl]

Carter is the most overrated player in the league. Plus he's injury prone, and he doesn't like to play defense. He would have been a terrible fit for this team, and the loss of Bowen's D and Bowen's leadership would have been devastating. Plus, the loss of Rose would have made our frontcourt rotation a little thin. Barry might have been replaceable, but he's such a good fit in style, attitude and character.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

Manu also requires fewer minutes to be effective

[rascal]

The Nets weren't going to make the playoffs anyways. Kidd missed a good part of the early season, Mourning didn't work out and left them thin at center and now Jefferson is lost for the year.

Carter was a steal of a trade for them. He has been playing great for them.

[Dre_7]

I find it interesting to see how many people are willing to just trade Manu for a proven star, when he has busted his ass for the team without complaint. I mean, he went through 2 seasons of being sixth man when he only should have gone one, having clearly proven his starter value during the beginning of last season. All the while not complaining at all, but instead doing everything he could to earn the respect of the San Antonio Spurs and their fans. I'm sorry, but I find the mere mention of trading Manu insulting not only to his personal fans, but to the integrity of this team, which is known for rewarding the players that bring them pride with loyalty and acceptance.

I do agree with you to an extent. As a latino (or white or hispanic or american or watever ahhhhh!!! :lol ) I love manu. I would not really wanna see him leave anytime soon. But, as a Spurs fan, if the right kinda deal came up, it would be hard to say no. You would have to think long and hard about trading him. No way would I trade him for Vince Carter! But I dont think he is leaving anytime soon. I hope this current nucleus stays together for a while. We have a great team.

[ChumpDumper]

Carter was a steal of a trade for them.Wait for the next injury.

[timvp]

Welcome, GW, Jr.

:drunk

[SequSpur]

Manu will never be one sock of a Vince Carter. Good take.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

I do agree with you to an extent. As a latino (or white or hispanic or american or watever ahhhhh!!! :lol ) I love manu. I would not really wanna see him leave anytime soon. But, as a Spurs fan, if the right kinda deal came up, it would be hard to say no. You would have to think long and hard about trading him. No way would I trade him for Vince Carter! But I dont think he is leaving anytime soon. I hope this current nucleus stays together for a while. We have a great team.


I'm not talking about race, color, gender or nacionality, I'm saying we should at least appreciate hard work and dedication before trading a player that helped the spurs to a second championship (before anyone jumps, I'm not saying the Spurs wouldn't have won without him, just saying he helped). What kind of message would we be sending? Work hard, give your best, and we'll reward you with a nice, big..... transfer to another team so we can get a better player! (in the middle of a record breaking season which you helped to achieve non-the-less)

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Besides its not like Manu isn't a good player, am I right?

[Dre_7]

I'm not talking about race, color, gender or nacionality, I'm saying we should at least appreciate hard work and dedication before trading a player that helped the spurs to a second championship (before anyone jumps, I'm not saying the Spurs wouldn't have won without him, just saying he helped). What kind of message would we be sending? Work hard, give your best, and we'll reward you with a nice, big..... transfer to another team so we can get a better player! (in the middle of a record breaking season which you helped to achieve non-the-less)

I wasnt talking about race either. I was just joking about that other thread where everyone was wondering "what" Manu was.

But anyways, I dont think he is going anywhere. but are you saying you would NEVER trade him? I am just saying that if the right deal comes up, then you at least gotta think about it.

[Brodels]

A team with Duncan, Parker, Manu (if Tor took the first deal) and Carter as its core players would make the spurs an even better team.

A more talented team? Absolutely. A better team? I beg to differ.


I'm sure many here are going to say they don't want Carter.

I don't want Carter. He needs lots of touches to be effective, and I think he really needs to be 'the man' on a team to be his best. On the Spurs, he would get less touches and be expected to pass the ball and play defense.

I have nothing against Carter, but because of his franchise-player status, injury history, and inability to make any N.B.A. team he's ever played on good, I'll pass. He's very talented, but he simply isn't worth the money and he would be a risk. The team could use some help in some areas, but it doesn't need a player like Carter.

You assume that adding more talent will make the Spurs better. History has shown that to be incorrect. You improve by adding the right pieces, not by trading for whatever talent might be available at any given time.


But did the spurs even consider trading for Carter?

We don't really know for sure.


And why not if they didn't?

If they did consider Carter and didn't end up making an offer for him, they did so because they believed that he wouldn't fit into what the team was trying to do. I can accept that. RC and Pop know what the team needs. They don't always make the right call, but I can't fault them for adding a player like Vince who obviously wouldn't fit.


The spurs do nothing when it comes to trades to improve even when teams are looking to give away proven star players.

The Spurs add players that fit. Are they conservative? Sure, but at least they don't try to throw together all the talent they can find and hope that it pans out.


The spurs will always have one of the top regular season records as long as duncan is one of the best players in the league because there are such few big inside impact players in the league as duncan is and the teams that have these players will be the best teams in the league. Look at how miami has turned it around by adding an impact inside player.

Get back to me when a non-post player of Shaq's caliber is available and you know for certain that the Spurs haven't made an offer.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

I wasnt talking about race either. I was just joking about that other thread where everyone was wondering "what" Manu was.

But anyways, I dont think he is going anywhere. but are you saying you would NEVER trade him? I am just saying that if the right deal comes up, then you at least gotta think about it.


I guess you're right, except I wouldn't do it mid-season. Specially not this season, I wouldn't do that to someone who has been loyal. Some can call this BS, but I don't think it should only be about getting the better deal, there are other things to take into account. I mean we pride ourselves in being the most stand-up team in the league; no drug problems, no animal abuse problems, no attitude problems among team members, that sort of thing. We do well by our fans, as we do well by our players. We should keep it that way.

[Guru of Nothing]

Rascal, please qualify your Carter references; then, I won't have to waste synapses distinguishing between ANTHONY and VINCE.

Thanks.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Rascal, please qualify your Carter references; then, I won't have to waste synapses distinguishing between ANTHONY and VINCE.

Thanks.

If you confuse Anthony with Vince after you have read these posts you don't know much about the league.

[Brodels]

If you confuse Anthony with Vince after you have read these posts you don't know much about the league.

Er, if you thought he was serious, you simply aren't very bright.

[ChumpDumper]

Yeah, Anthony is .714 as a starter. Superstar Vince is .371

Once again proving stats only go so far--

--but Vince still sucks. If Devin Brown played 40mpg as a Net he'd average 23ppg with Kidd spoon feeding him all night, too.

[Dre_7]

Hey, Manumania- You tellin me that if IND offered J. O'neal for Manu (put aside the salary cap, this is just hypothetical/theoritical) straight up you wouldnt take it?

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Er, if you thought he was serious, you simply aren't very bright.

You're right, I did think he was serious. If he wasn't then I apologyse. However, I don't appreciate you making remarks about how bright you might think I am. Keep those stupid comments to yourself next time, and we'll get along just fine. PS. believe it or not, I've been on other forums, and seen quite a few stupid questions and posts that have no indication of being humor, sarcasm or the like. Either way I would think a small mistake about confusing sarcasm or joke with a serious statement inside a forum where everything is written isn't that drastic.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Guru, you one funny guy!!

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Hey, Manumania- You tellin me that if IND offered J. O'neal for Manu (put aside the salary cap, this is just hypothetical/theoritical) straight up you wouldnt take it?

I know where you are coming from, and I understand that J. Oneal is simply a more proficient player in more ways than one. However, I would have to say not this season. I think we have a good team as it is. no emediate need to trade Manu for someone better, he's doing well as it is. I think Manu has done too much this season for us to just trade him like he was just another player. I know I'm exagerating a bit but consider this, would you trade Tim Duncan for someone better? (if that someone actually existed) even though Tim has given so much for this team. Wouldn't that taste a little like betrayal?

PS. The exageration was just to make a point, not saying that Manu is better than Tim, not by a very long shot.

[Dre_7]

Ok, I understand your post.
Having said all that I have said, I like our team, and I dont think anyone of our key guys are going anywhere soon.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Ok, I understand your post.
Having said all that I have said, I like our team, and I dont think anyone of our key guys are going anywhere soon.


Yup, feel the same way

[samikeyp]

Carter was a steal of a trade for them. He has been playing great for them.

when he is not taking plays off.

[exstatic]

I was wondering where your negative ass was, rasscal. If this is all you have to bitch about, your season must be miserable to this point, and that makes me smile. Yes, Toronto gave him away. They would know his personality and work ethic better than ANYONE, so it begs the question...why did they give him away? If you answer that, you'll know why no team would give them more than a bucket of warm spit for him.

The most telling number since the trade: NJ is 6-10. Kidd is pretty much entrenched as first or second team All NBA. If Carter is all that, why are they still LOSING? My guess is because Carter is like you, rasscal: a loser.

[Guru of Nothing]

Guru, you one funny guy!!

Aw shucks.

I owe it all to the little people.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Vince Carter: Half Man, Half a Season.

Hmm, keep Manu and have a guy who showed up in the post-season, or trade him for Vince and get a guy who can't be bothered to show up in the last half the season, let alone the post-season.

[Sense]

Carter<Manu.

Heh.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Just to expound...

In Manu you have a guy who his teammates know will be there in money time.

In Carter, you had a guy who was openly called out by his own teammates in the playoffs for not showing up.

Why the hell would you ever want a loser like that on this squad?

[Sense]

Plus Ego<No Ego

Championship>No Championship

Gold Medalist> Fag who decided not to play in olympics.

[MosesGuthrie]

Vince Carter: Half Man, Half a Season.

sums it up right there.

[Dre_7]

I member the first time I heard Barkley call VC Half man half a season I laughed so hard.

Carter may be a better athlete and/or player then Manu, but Manu is better for a team like SA then Carter.

I love how we play as a team (for the most part) on both ends of the floor. Its how Basketball should be.

[Gummi]

The Nets got Vince for almost nothing. The only guy I would like on the Spurs is the only player that's not playing right now, Mourning. If you look at Carter and how he plays, you'll see that he's not even close to Manu's competitiveness and hustle. Carter needs to have the ball in his hands most of the time to be effective, unlike Manu. He's lazy on defense and sometimes argues with officials instead of running back on D.

I wouldn't even trade Manu straight up for Carter and I'm not a homer. I would guess that GM's around the league would rather have Manu then Vince Carter on their roster.

The Spurs organization doesn't do business the same way the rest of the league does. They want certain players and if they're not available they don't just settle for anything. And that's a good thing.

[Brodels]

You're right, I did think he was serious. If he wasn't then I apologyse. However, I don't appreciate you making remarks about how bright you might think I am. Keep those stupid comments to yourself next time, and we'll get along just fine. PS. believe it or not, I've been on other forums, and seen quite a few stupid questions and posts that have no indication of being humor, sarcasm or the like. Either way I would think a small mistake about confusing sarcasm or joke with a serious statement inside a forum where everything is written isn't that drastic.

Hey, I'm standing up for a veteran, respected poster. You started it by questioning his basketball knowledge. GON has been here from the beginning and he brings it.

I'm not really all that concerned about us getting along fine, but thanks for the offer.

[ZStomp]

Fuck Carter.

He's weak and a loser.

No thanks.

[smeagol]

Once upon a time there was a poll about FSP's most clueless poster . . .

People were voting for GW, whottt (?), Sequ and I was campaiging for rascal. He is not only the most clueles poster, he is also the most annoying, negative mother kucker around.

He hasn't showed his ugly mug in over six months and his first post, at a moment when the Spurs

(i) are 34-10 (best start ever),

(ii) have bitch slapped the other contenders (Suns, Kings, Mavs, Heat), and

(iii) two of its most inconsistent players, Parker and Manu, are playing better than ever

is "we should have gotten VC for a combo including Manu".

rascal: you are a waste of bandwith. These last six months have been fine without you.

Please get the fvck out of here, bitch!

[Jimcs50]

Manu is not tradable.

He is probably the favorite Spur of 50% of the fans world wide...there is no way in hell that they would trade him.

[ALVAREZ6]

Carter isn't worth it, he wouldn't fit into this team like Manu does.

If Manu took as many shots as Carter, his numbers would be better.

[ALVAREZ6]

People were voting for GW, whottt (?), Sequ and I was campaiging for rascal. He is not only the most clueles poster, he is also the most annoying, negative mother kucker around.

Who's rascal?

To me, violent pussy is still the most annoying poster.

[violentkitten]

good

[sickdsm]

Carter is another marbury, everyone was saying the knicks stole him and it was a horrible trade for PHX (except this fan with a first hand view of Marbury's act). Now look at that? Secondly, why the hell would Toronto want Rose? To back up Bosh at the 4? He has a bloated contract. Spurs fans tend to overate Rose's trade value. SA is a small market team, to market them they have to use the global aspect (china is a big Houston Rocket fans). Trading manu would be dumb.

[GhostofAlfrederickHughes]

Yeah, always makes sense to disrupt the heart of your team for a pouting prima donna who's never won an NBA championship. :elephant

[smeagol]

Who's rascal?

To me, violent pussy is still the most annoying poster.
You haven't been in the board long enough to get to know mother fucking negative rascal.

VK is plain stupid.

IMO, he is just some other poster hidding under a different nick trying to stirr things up.

[GoSpurs21]

V Carter is overrated

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Hey, I'm standing up for a veteran, respected poster. You started it by questioning his basketball knowledge. GON has been here from the beginning and he brings it.

I'm not really all that concerned about us getting along fine, but thanks for the offer. Now let me ask you something, assuming we agree that my mistake about the seriousness of his statement is an honest mistake, do you really believe I was indeed trying to belittle him by saying what I said? I was simply stating what in my opinion was fact, if he had meant what he said then he probably wouldn't know much about the league. Either way I already apologized to him, so in the future, I really don't give a crap who or what you think you're standing up for, or who has been here longer, you better rethink what you're posting before you make dumbass assumptions like that. To be honest, I did expect an apology from you after what you said, seeing as though your posts seemed objective and serious analysis of the subjects at hand I assumed you'd be a better man, but after that " I'm not really all that concerned about us getting along fine, but thanks for the offer " bit, I realize you're just a punk, and therefore not even going to bother arguing with you anymore.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

I apologize to everyone else on this tread, I know I got offtopic for a while there. I just had to clear that up that is all. Brodels, if you wish to adress this discussion more extensively, just PM me.
http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smiafro.gif

[whottt]

smeagol, at that time I wanted to win the most clueless poster contest, dammit...I could have used that vote!

And BTW, Rascal is an idiot...but he's John Wooden compared to Sense...

by far the stupidest mother fucker to ever post in any Spurs forum anywhere.

At least you can understand what Rascal is trying to say.

[GrandeDavid]

48 at Phoenix. Wraparound passes, hard-nosed play, the steals, the jams, the treys, the impeccable attitude, the health.

I wouldn't trade Manu for Carter straight up, much less in a package.

Don't mess with what's already great. There's a damn good reason those star players are traded and why the Spurs sit pat.

[manustarting2gd]

VC is a biznatch. Half ass effort brings no rewards.

[Brodels]

Now let me ask you something, assuming we agree that my mistake about the seriousness of his statement is an honest mistake, do you really believe I was indeed trying to belittle him by saying what I said?

I did. Perhaps I should not have assumed that you were trying to belittle him, but what other reason would you have for bringing that up? If you feel the need to judge someone's basketball knowledge and evaluate it as inferior, what other purpose could you have.


I was simply stating what in my opinion was fact, if he had meantwhat he said then he probably wouldn't know much about the league.

Again, what reason would you have for even bringing it up? It can't go over in a positive fashion.


I really don't give a crap who or what you think you're standing up for,

Well, you gave enough of a crap to write a response.


or who has been here longer,

Look, I knew it was a joke. You wrote a negative remark. I was standing up for an established and respected poster. I like the posters here and will defend them if someone new comes and starts spouting negative stuff. I'll even stand up for TPark, because even though I don't think much of his basketball knowledge, he seems like a pretty cool guy and I hope to have a beer with him when I'm in San Antonio someday.


you better rethink what you're posting before you make dumbass assumptions like that.

I think about everything I post. And I didn't make any assumptions. I observed what seemed to me to be true and wrote my findings.


To be honest, I did expect an apology from you after what you said

I don't think it's necessary for such a minor comment made on an internet message board.


I assumed you'd be a better man,

Please. Just like I don't know what kind of person you really are, you don't know what kind of person I really am.


but after that " I'm not really all that concerned about us getting along fine, but thanks for the offer " bit, I realize you're just a punk, and therefore not even going to bother arguing with you anymore.

That's the first time I've been called a punk. I kind of like it. It makes me sound kind of badass.

If you bring good takes and stick around for a while, I'll respect your opinions and debate them with you. If you stick to that, I'm sure we'll get along just fine. We might even agree on a lot of things.

Now, back on topic...


Who's rascal?

To me, violent pussy is still the most annoying poster.

Just you wait. In time, I think you may change your mind.

On Carter...I agree that he wouldn't be a good fit, he's injury prone, and he just doesn't get it, but he's very talented and could really be something if he ever gets his head on straight. He's one of the most talented players in the league. It's hard to dispute that.

If he ever learned to play with the drive and desire that most of the best players have, he could really be a very good franchise player.

I'm glad he won't become a Spur anytime soon, but I do feel bad for him at times. He was on top of the world just a short time ago, and now he's nothing but a talented retread.

If New Jersey knew what was good for them, they would move either Carter or Jefferson for a decent big man. If New Jersey could field a team with a very solid low post threat, a healthy Jason Kidd, and a motivated Carter, they would be back in the finals. It probably won't happen, but Nets fans (all eighty of them) can dream.

[Frenchise player]

Tonight on his radio show Tony did coment on Carter behaviour.
I think after all he said, if the Spurs want Carter, they might have to deal him for Parker.
Tp said that it was really increadibly selfish to say that he didn't want to play for Toronto despite he was payed 15 million per year, what a good exemple for the kids.
Anyway who really wants Carter in this team when we already have Manu?

[SequSpur]

Manu is not even good enough to park Carter's car.

Dude, Carter and Manu are not even in the same class.

Carter is a damn superstar. Manu is a good player.

[ALVAREZ6]

You haven't been in the board long enough to get to know mother fucking negative rascal.

VK is plain stupid.

IMO, he is just some other poster hidding under a different nick trying to stirr things up.
Ok, I see.

Sequ is pretty damn negative too.

[Guru of Nothing]

Ok, I see.

Sequ is pretty damn negative too.

Last time I did the math, 4' 2" was pretty damn positive.

[ALVAREZ6]

Last time I did the math, 4' 2" was pretty damn positive.
:lol :lmao

[rascal]

Everyone who disagrees with me is an idiot.

Thats about the level of responses I'm seeing here in this thread.

If Carter was acquired by the spurs in a trade I wouldn't be seeing any of these negative responses on Carter. Sure some would not like trading manu but few would say that they didn't want Carter.

I see it all the time. Any player the spurs get, that player instantly is over hyped up to be better than he was before he became a Spur.

I remember all those who thought Antonio Daniels was going to be an allstar while he was a spur and garbage after he left. Same goes for Derek Anderson. Bateer is another one, people really believed he was going to contribute when the spurs first got him.

Thats the mentality of a homer and since this is a Spurs board its no surprise that this board is full of them. There are only a few here willing to challenge the masses. Some of those that are new that do challenge are just run off, others get tired of all the name calling and others just get bored with all the homerism.

[Guru of Nothing]

Everyone who disagrees with me is an idiot.

Wrong forum.

Please go directly to the Politics forum.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

If you bring good takes and stick around for a while, I'll respect your opinions and debate them with you. If you stick to that, I'm sure we'll get along just fine. We might even agree on a lot of things. Brodel, maybe we should start over, I'm willing to chalk this whole thing as a missunderstanding on both our parts. Its sad that we had to engage in such an idiotic argument, when in fact I do share most of the ideas I've seen you write. Either way, I apologise to Guru of Nothing for having commented on his knowledge about basketball (probably for nothing 'cause Guru doesn't seem to have payed any mind to my comments lol; thanks for that by the way). Peace on both your houses dudes!

PS. (TO BRODELS) I'm still bright though! PUNK! !http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/lmao.gifhttp://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/lmao.gifhttp://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/lmao.gif:lmao:lmao

[Guru of Nothing]

I apologise to Guru of Nothing for having commented on his knowledge about basketball (probably for nothing 'cause Guru doesn't seem to have payed any mind to my comments lol; thanks for that by the way). Peace on both your houses dudes!

It bothers me more that Brodels referred to me as a "respected" poster.

[violentkitten]

the argument posited by the threads creator is based upon the status of vince carter as a name player yet it ignores the fact that the spurs have players who are in the process of making their own names in the nba. frankly it appears that all the threads creator knows is that carter is a name player

[violentkitten]

also i would add that manu would be a 20 point scorer if he got the touches. rascal needs to learn the game before he comes up in here talking his mess

[violentkitten]

the first 5 minutes of tonights game is why i wouldnt give up manu for carter. fuck giving up other players too

[ALVAREZ6]

the first 5 minutes of tonights game is why i wouldnt give up manu for carter. fuck giving up other players too
I can't believe you just said that.

[rascal]

Lets see Manu get the touches and become a 20 point scorer before we say he is just as good as a 20 point scorer.

Can he score 20 a game? Its possible he can and so can many other nba players if given enough shots but the fact is he is not a 20 point scorer and never has been for whatever reason(Pops system and spurs team play) he doesn't get the minutes or the shot attempts and hasn't yet become a go to player(scorer) like Carter has been. Carter has proven to be a top star in the league while manu is trying to reach that level but hasn't gotten there yet and there is a chance he never will.

Is manu better defensively? I would say he is but overall Carter is the bigger offensive threat and more capable of taking over a game than Manu and Carter is the better player. Manu still has a ways to go before he reaches Carter's level.

[violentkitten]

oh wow all carter can do is score points on lotto teams. lest we forget the fucker stopped playing for his own team a few times. all you know is that he has a name. actually he used to have a name hes pretty washed up in the league

[violentkitten]

so manu isnt a 20 point scorer because of pop but that wouldnt befall carter in san antonio? how much weed you smoke?

its easy to tell who doesnt know the game when they start trying to evaluate talent based on scoring average

[ChumpDumper]

Lets see Manu get the touches and become a 20 point scorer before we say he is just as good as a 20 point scorer.Why did he not score 20ppg in Toronto this season?

[violentkitten]

what is a vince carter going to bring to this team. nba championships arent won based on fantasy league rules.

[exstatic]

I would say he is but overall Carter is the bigger offensive threat and more capable of taking over a game than Manu and Carter is the better player.

Carter is worthless without the ball in his hands. Manu is equally effective working with the ball, or without it. You'll see those Manu touches next year.

Manu is clearly the more aggressive player, going to the line 223 times in 1245 minutes to Carter's 158 in 1282. He's a better long distance shooter at .389 to Carter's .339. In fact, I'm finding it hard to find any area where Carter is better, other than he gets more shots in his team's scheme. Manu's certainly more efficient at 1.51 pts/FGA to Carter's anemic 1.09.

[rascal]

Ex, your stats are not accurate. You can't take carter's overall numbers because thet are not a true indication of Carter's ability. His numbers in NJ are better than his overall numbers and are a truer indicator of the type of player he really is. Had he come to the spurs i'm sure he would be playing up to his ability and would be a reliable 2nd scorer behind Duncan.

He wanted out of Toronto and played poorly there to force them to trade him out. That was the only way he was going to get them to trade him at this time and he wanted out now. Had he been putting up all star numbers in Toronto they wouldn't have wanted to trade him.

[rascal]

And I also would expect carter's defense to improve if he came to the Spurs because of the teams emphasis on defense. He is a talented overall player with physical skills and in the right situation with the right team and that could have been the spurs he could be great. He is doing well with NJ now and it would be the same with the spurs.

[violentkitten]

hey um that manu is a talented overall player with athletic skills. so back we get to carters status as a former star

[exstatic]

He wanted out of Toronto and played poorly there to force them to trade him out.

I think that says enough for me.

I doubt he would be happy as a #2 or #3 banana, and probably would have played poorly again to force the Spurs to move him. Give him Ginobili's 430 FGA, and you know what he is? A 13 point scorer.

[violentkitten]

im confused does rascal want to see the spurs win a championship or turn into a sacramento or phoenix?

[violentkitten]

ginobili has 17 points at half on 9 shots. 3 more and we have a 20 point scorer on our hands woohoo

[ChumpDumper]

He wanted out of Toronto and played poorly there to force them to trade him out.So he'll sabotage a team for his own selfish reasons?

Where do I sign?

Toronto didn't get rid of him quickly enough then, they'd be #8 right now if they had cut the ballast earlier.

No sandbaggers.

[whottt]

I think you guys are missing the essential point...

Carter is a gutless pussy who frequently gets hurt, has no balls, and whose team usually plays better with him in the IR.

I think that's the point...I don't really care if Carter scores 40 a game and Manu scores none...

[smeagol]

rascal, you are truly clueless.

[Duncanoypi]

are they talking to Anthony Carter?.....

[SequSpur]

I am going to order a Spurs Vince Carter jersey... shit... I can at least dream.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

If Carter was acquired by the spurs in a trade I wouldn't be seeing any of these negative responses on Carter.

This is bullshit, I for one would be raising hell. Half a Man, Half a Season. Barkley's called it, game, set, match.

Vince Carter ain't shit without someone throwing him oops. His team sucked donkey balls in Toronto, and is something like 5-6 games under .500 since he got to the Nets. Some difference maker.

rascal, please show me when, ever, Vince Carter did anything in any game of relevance. Hell, the guy was even getting called out openly by his teammates in the playoffs a few years back for not showing up, and he still proceeded to go out and get owned.

When someone smacks Vince in the mouth, he goes on the injured list for the rest of the year. When someone smacks Manu in the mouth, he gets up, refuses to dust himself off, and goes and wins the damn game.

'Nuff said. You can have your Sportscenter wet dream, I'll take a guy with ice in the veins who lays it all out on the court, not at his vacation home, when it's on the line.

[SequSpur]

Aggie,

Vince puts up 20+ without Duncan beside him. Imagine what a player like him and Duncan could do together.

The Spurs would be 36 and 9.

Imagine that.

Sheyitt.

[whottt]

I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how Duncan helps a guy score 20 a game when Duncan himself is the primary offensive weapon and will get more shots than anyone he plays with...

It just doesn't work that way.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

The Spurs would be 36 and 9.

:lol


Imagine what a player like him and Duncan could do together.

They'd make a mean team in the preseason, that's about all you can count on Vince for.

[SequSpur]

Fourth quarters, spurs would have a very good option not named Duncan.

[whottt]

Drob was a career 20 PPG scorer...did Duncan help him score 20 a game? Nope. It stopped when Duncan came to the team.

Duncan may help a guy like Bruce Bowen lead the NBA in 3 shooting but he's not going to help anyone win a scoring title.

[SequSpur]

Some players just do it. And Carter is one of them.

If we had a player like Carter during the playoffs last year, maybe someone could've bailed out Parker, Manu, Rasho, Horry, Malik and Duncan.

[whottt]

You must have missed that Philly playoff series where A:Carter got jacked when it mattered in one game and B:He didn't even care enough to make the most important game.

This dude cares crap about winning a title...

All you need to know is that the mofo refused to be traded to any team in the West...figure it out.

[SequSpur]

Since most of the championships won in the last 10-15 years had Duncan, Shaq, Jordan or Akeem on them, why in the fuck would he have the slightest hope of taking a one man canadian show to the promise land?

Can you blame the dude for wanting to leave? Vince Carter is a straight up stud. If you can't see that, you have no hope.........

[whottt]

I'd rather have Rasho...suck on that.

Oh and give your wife a foot message and cook dinner for her.

[SequSpur]

Exactly, no answer, pull the Rasho card over a true allstar. Waste of time talking to homers anyway.

[whottt]

Rasho is better at staying off the IR.

Does no good to have Wilt if he's dead.

[Dre_7]

Carter is an all-star, but I wouldnt trade Manu for him!

[whottt]

Vince Carter and TMac are by far the two most over-rated mofo's in NBA history...

Can't even keep their teams out of the lottery in the East, lose 19 fucking games in a row, talk about not trying hard...tanking the season.

Both these guys are everything wrong with the NBA.

I'd rather see them playing for my worst enemy than my own team.

[T Park]

Vince Carter???

Youve got to be kidding me.


Only Sequ would want that puss over Manu Ginobili.


Sequ, theres more to basketball than dunking the fuckin ball you dunce.


Vince Carter tonight, wouldve layed a fuckin egg.

Grow a fuckin brain.

[rascal]

I also would rather keep Manu if I could get Carter for my first trade scenario, for Bowen, Barry and Rose but only Sequ Spur was willing to even make this trade.

You homers form attachments to spur players and over rate them.

Carter shooting 5's would improve on the spurs becasue he wouldn't have to force up so many shots which lowers the %'s. He would also get better looks with duncan on his team. Carter has had very little support on the teams he has been on. Thats why he hasn't won. He has never played with an impact big man. Akeem was finished as a player when he went to Toronto.

[smeagol]

I also would rather keep Manu if I could get Carter for my first trade scenario, for Bowen, Barry and Rose but only Sequ Spur was willing to even make this trade.

You homers form attachments to spur players and over rate them.

Carter shooting 5's would improve on the spurs becasue he wouldn't have to force up so many shots which lowers the %'s. He would also get better looks with duncan on his team. Carter has had very little support on the teams he has been on. Thats why he hasn't won. He has never played with an impact big man. Akeem was finished as a player when he went to Toronto.

:sleep :sleep :sleep :sleep :sleep :sleep :sleep :sleep

[waly.mg]

Manu X Carter and ......who more?

Manu X Carter and Kidd?

Manu x Carter and Jefferson, who is in the IL?

Manu don´t will go to anywhere

He die in Argentina or in San Antonio

[pjjrfan]

Chemistry is more important, and I think that the Spurs mangement looks at that more than a lot of people would think. Except for the Kidd experience, the Spurs have never really chased after anyone. And Pop and RC have a proven system, 2 titles, and arguably the best player in the league who buys into it and who they can build around. I'm not about to second guess one of the top franchise managements in the league. The Spurs operate on a budget, and the things they have done and accomplished are trutly miraculous.

[ALVAREZ6]

This thread is pretty much over.

We all basically agree that Manu should stay, besides 2 little retards.

[Extra Stout]

If the Spurs got Carter, they'd have two starters in the All-Star game every year. Right now, they only might get two in the game at all because they are the best team in the league by such a wide margin that everyone is forced to take notice.

Look at the Rockets. They're a borderline playoff team at best, but they have two starters for the West. They have a GM who is willing to trade away most of his depth for star power. If we had someone like rascal running the Spurs instead of Pop and R.C., they could be more like the Rockets instead of where they are now.

:drunk

[waly.mg]

If the Spurs got Carter, they'd have two starters in the All-Star game every year. Right now, they only might get two in the game at all because they are the best team in the league by such a wide margin that everyone is forced to take notice.

Look at the Rockets. They're a borderline playoff team at best, but they have two starters for the West. They have a GM who is willing to trade away most of his depth for star power. If we had someone like rascal running the Spurs instead of Pop and R.C., they could be more like the Rockets instead of where they are now.

:drunk

So we gonna trade Manu, or Parker, or Both for Yao Ming

With yao we gonna have 2 All stars for the Next 10 years

[Extra Stout]

So we gonna trade Manu, or Parker, or Both for Yao Ming

With yao we gonna have 2 All stars for the Next 10 years

The Spurs could be 24 and 19.

Imagine that.

Sheyitt.

[smeagol]

I agree with Alvarez. This thread is going nowhere.


We all basically agree that Manu should stay, besides 2 little retards.
One's body is little, the other has a little brain.

[Useruser666]

On a side note, these were the rankings on www.foxsports.com Top 200 fantasy players.

39. Manu Ginobili - SG

40. Vince Carter - SG/SF

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/3357536

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Look at the Rockets. They're a borderline playoff team at best, but they have two starters for the West. They have a GM who is willing to trade away most of his depth for star power.

Yao Ming doesn't have star power, he has the communist vote.

Anyone in this thread supporting Vince shows they don't know shit about hoops. 20 point scorers are a dime a dozen in this league, what you need is someone who can perform in the clutch, and more importantly the playoffs.

I guess you guys don't follow east coast basketball, because the one time Vince was actually around for a playoff series he got owned by I think it was Baron Davis, not to mention having old man Antonio Davis (teammate) call his ass out.

[rascal]

If you want to post fantasy rankings.

In the cbs head to head fantasy leagues Carter is clearly more valuable than Manu.

Carter is ranked 17'th amonst guards and Manu 32nd.

[whottt]

I guess you guys don't follow east coast basketball, because the one time Vince was actually around for a playoff series he got owned by I think it was Baron Davis, not to mention having old man Antonio Davis (teammate) call his ass out.

He had a pretty good scorers duel with AI but ultimately got owned...and Oakley called him out as being a weak bitch...


Oakley then went on to prove emphatically, that Carter is a weak bitch, the next time he faced him as an opponent.

And the first time Carter was in the post season he shot 300% from the field...

[whottt]

If you want to post fantasy rankings.

In the cbs head to head fantasy leagues Carter is clearly more valuable than Manu.

Carter is ranked 17'th amonst guards and Manu 32nd.

And if you want to pull your head out...dude has admitted he tanks it...why in the fuck would you want that guy on your team?

He's a fucking quitter...

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

It's kinda hard to quantify fantasy rankings, sounds like CBS puts more emphasis on FGs and points scored.

Manu is a six cat monster most nights, while Vince gets to say that he shot a lot and scored some points.

[whottt]

I think most of the other NBA players pretty much consider Carter a joke...

I know Barkley and Smith laugh at him and pretty much think he is pathetic...

Toronto traded him for scrubs and is now a better team.

The Nets aquiring him has made no difference in Jason Kidd's desire to be traded.

Basically everyone in the world except Rascal and Segu realize that Carter is all style and no substance, is injury prone, and lacks heart...yet we are supposed to listen to you two clowns instead of what is obvious to anyone who isn't a Superstar groupie.

Don't call us homers...you guys are nothing but All Star vote homers(laughable because the mofo gets voted in to the AS game when he hasn't even played a game hardly or even been healthy)....ya'll haven't watched shit of this guy...

[baseline bum]

No GM in the league would trade Ginobili for Carter and his whining, laziness, and injuries. If Carter was worth shit Toronto would have done a whole hell of a lot better than a done Alonzo Mourning, two scrub-ass Williams' and a couple of picks. You're the biggest fucking retard on this board.

[baseline bum]

im confused does rascal want to see the spurs win a championship or turn into a sacramento or phoenix?

Don't be confused... all that bitch did in the 2003 playoffs was complain about the Spurs winning a title by playing boring basketball.

[smeagol]

rascal is getting owned in so many ways it is not funny anymore :lol

[Man In Black]

Lets see Manu get the touches and become a 20 point scorer before we say he is just as good as a 20 point scorer.

Can he score 20 a game? Its possible he can and so can many other nba players if given enough shots but the fact is he is not a 20 point scorer and never has been for whatever reason(Pops system and spurs team play) he doesn't get the minutes or the shot attempts and hasn't yet become a go to player(scorer) like Carter has been. Carter has proven to be a top star in the league while manu is trying to reach that level but hasn't gotten there yet and there is a chance he never will.

Is manu better defensively? I would say he is but overall Carter is the bigger offensive threat and more capable of taking over a game than Manu and Carter is the better player. Manu still has a ways to go before he reaches Carter's level.

It only took 1 year for Manu to accomplish what Vince has been trying to get his entire life. A championship. Manu has already been considered the best player in 2 leagues he has played in PLUS the World Championships and the Olympics. If Carter was here, he'd get less shots so him getting 20 points isn't exactly a sure thing. His effectiveness in FG% sucks as well. There are intangibles that can't be counted. Vince Carter has shown us his best years and he is well on his decline. Manu Ginobili is a work in progress but seriously, for as good as the team is playing this year...why would anyone want to fuck that all up with a trade for Vince Carter? That guy doesn't understand the intracacies of team basketball and role-play. Apparently, you and Sequ don't know as well. It ain't plug & play. If Pop can hold Tim back, he can hold anybody back.
:fro

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

That brings up another point. Manu was leading his country to a gold medal while VC was pussing out and counting his money.

[johnny00]

I can't believe this thread went for 120+ posts. Rascal go back do your homework and come back when you have something to bring to the board.

[rascal]

smeagol: owned? How do you figure that? I see nothing but weak opinions why people don't want Carter. I see nothing that convinces me that Carter would not have been a good pickup for the spurs for either one of my trade scenarios that match out contracts especially the 1'st one for Bowen, Rose and Berry. Thats a steal for the spurs.

I've been on this board enough to have seen so many times when the minority were proven right. Homerism will lead the masses to misjugements and wrong beliefs and disappointments when expectations are higher than they should be.

The main point here is the spurs have done nothing for years in trades even when top players can be had for little more than matching contracts.

Again, How many would not trade Bowen, Rose and Berry for Carter? That was my 1'st trade scenario but I've seen very little talk about that 1'st offer and everything about not wanting to trade Manu.

[exstatic]

Toronto did give him away, but primarily for ending contracts or near ending ones. Why does everyone think other teams want our bad contracts?

To directly answer your scenario: if Pop thought it would make the team better, he'd do it in a heartbeat. Your trade makes the team less of a threat from beyond the arc, and a worse team defensively, not to mention throwing an underachieving snake into the locker room who admitted playing less than his best.

[Extra Stout]

Again, How many would not trade Bowen, Rose and Berry for Carter? That was my 1'st trade scenario but I've seen very little talk about that 1'st offer and everything about not wanting to trade Manu.Carter's skill sets on offense duplicate a lot of things Parker and Manu already are providing. That's the mistake the Knicks make all the time -- they stock up on superfluous players. I'd like his rebounding, but his lack of defense is killer, and he's only 6'6". The Spurs get lit up by tall, athletic small forwards as it is -- Carter only makes that problem worse. He can't play small forward for the Spurs, and you can't give up Bowen for him. This team is not going to start playing like the Suns. If that is what you wish would happen, go root for the Suns.

He's going to take the shots Parker and Manu take now. In NJ, he's shooting 44.5% -- with Jason Kidd making it easy for him. Manu shoots 48.2%. Tony shoots 49.0%. Both of them will penetrate and draw contact. Carter avoids contact.

It's a Mark Cuban move -- add a player who doesn't address your needs just for the sake of getting another star. If the Spurs are going to make a trade, they need somebody who can guard Rashard Lewis, Grant Hill, and Shawn Marion before they need a guy who provides scoring which they already get from current players.

Just because you want to pull out all your teeth for Vince Carter because he puts up pretty stats doesn't mean everyone else is a homer. Recent franchise history tells me the last thing the team needs is a soft player who doesn't like clutch situations or physical playoff-style play, and prefers to fade into the background -- even if he is putting up 23 a night.

[SequSpur]

Uh. okay spurs fans, you win.... Manu > Carter.. lol...

[smeagol]

smeagol: owned? How do you figure that? I see nothing but weak opinions why people don't want Carter. I see nothing that convinces me that Carter would not have been a good pickup for the spurs for either one of my trade scenarios that match out contracts especially the 1'st one for Bowen, Rose and Berry. Thats a steal for the spurs.
Yes OWNED!

There are five pages of reasons why VC is a bad fit for the Spurs. You chose to think they are weak opinions. To me they are pretty convincing. I'll mention a few: (i) the guy is not clutch, (ii) he avoids contact (pussy), (iii) he is injury prone, (iv) he is a locker room cancer, (v) his percentages are low compared to Manu and TP, (vi) he needs lots of looks to score 20 pts, etc, etc, etc . . .


I've been on this board enough to have seen so many times when the minority were proven right. Homerism will lead the masses to misjugements and wrong beliefs and disappointments when expectations are higher than they should be.
So what? Was you point ever proven right? No, and we will never no because your idiotic trade ideas have never materialized (thank God!).


The main point here is the spurs have done nothing for years in trades even when top players can be had for little more than matching contracts.
So what? They have two championships and they are on the way to a third one. The entire league places them as their first candidate to win it all.


Again, How many would not trade Bowen, Rose and Berry for Carter? That was my 1'st trade scenario but I've seen very little talk about that 1'st offer and everything about not wanting to trade Manu.
Your first trade scenario is as stupid as your second one. The reason being you want to bring VC to a team that is 35-10 for some of its key role players.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

The main point here is the spurs have done nothing for years in trades even when top players can be had for little more than matching contracts.


This isn't your main point, this whole thread, all five pages, was about how you're right and we're all wrong about Manu > Carter.



Again, How many would not trade Bowen, Rose and Berry for Carter?

The reason it's not being talked about is that now that Scott Layden is out of the league there isn't a GM smoking enough crack to even consider a trade like that with the Spurs.

In short, we don't discuss because it's fvcking stupid, like you wanting a guy who is a zero come playoff time at the expense of a guy who has already punked USA's Dream Team twice, won a World Championship, Gold Medal, and NBA championship (and more to come) all in his first three years in the league.

Vince Carter is to the playoffs as Ron Artest is to the rest of the NBA season (i.e. nowhere to be found).

[rascal]

Aggie: You are wrong. That is my main point. I have brought that up many times in this forum.

On to Smeagol: You offer opinions and not fact.

Lets break it down

The guy is not clutch.
Your opinion with no solid facts to support this claim.
Carter has better playoff numbers than Manu.


Carter has in the playoffs 25.7 ppg thats up from his career regular season avg of 24 PPG. So no dropoff there. Shooting %'s in the playoffs Fg% .415 FT% .810 compared with career regular season FG% .446 and FT% .781. A dropoff in fG% but a rise in FT%. But compared with Manu's playoff numbers they are better. Manu playoff fg% .406 FT%.780 and regular season career FG% .441 FT% .788. A larger dropoff for manu.

Carter overall playoff numbers are up in assits, rebounds and steals as compared to the regular season.

Carter: playoff avg's
5 assits, 1.5 steals and 6.4 rebounds
Regular season
3.9 assits, 1.3 steals and 5.2 rebounds

It makes sense that these numbers are higher because his minutes go up in the playoffs from 37.6 in the regular season to 44 minutes a game. That also can account for lower fg% totals with the high minutes per game totals.

Your claim that he is not clutch is not supported by the numbers. And if you want to believe it then you have to also believe that Manu is not clutch because his shooting %'s are even worse than Carter's in the playoffs.

Point number two

He avoids contact (pussy)
Where do you get that from. Carter is a player who takes it to the basket hard and finishes with dunks creating his own shots off the dribble.


He is injury prone.
I agree with you here. He has had a history of getting injured but its what makes him high risk/ high reward.


He is a locker room cancer.
Carter is not a cancer. Thats just your opinion. He was a team leader on Toronto for years and their best player. The go to player until this year when he wanted out because the franchise wasn't trying to improve. No doubt he wouldn't be any problem with the spurs and thats a weak excuss for not wanting him on the spurs.


His numbers are low compared to manu and TP

The numbers don't support this.

Carter's career fg% is .446 as compared with manu's career fg% of .441
Carter's career ft% is .781 as compared with manu's career fT% of .788

and to those who claim Manu is a better 3 point shooter
Carter's career 3pt fg% is .383 and Manu's is .364

The numbers don't support your inaccurate opinion.


He needs lots of looks to score 20 pts etc. etc. etc...

He gets lots of looks because he was the best player on Toronto and a proven star in the league. And thats why he plays more minutes and is a more valuable overall player than Manu.

So to sum it all up your reasons for not wanting Carter are just your perceptions which are not only inaccurate but not supported by stats.

[samikeyp]

Carter is not a cancer.

and that is just yours. What makes yours better than Whottts? The Spurs are 35-10...why change that?

[Brodels]

Rascal, you just don't get it.

At least half of Spurs fans on this forum would have no trouble moving some players for a legit star. But people want that only if it looks like the star is going to be a good fit. If you started a thread about moving Rasho and Malik Rose for a quality big man, you would get lots of positive responses.

Carter brings certain things to the table, but he doesn't fill a need. He's one of the more talented players in the league. I think few would argue with that. But he needs to have the ball to be effective. He wouldn't get the touches he needs to score 25 ppg in San Antonio. He's a rhythm player. He needs to shoot the ball and get in a groove. As long as Tim Duncan is the focal point of the offense, that's not going to happen.

He's not the best defender. Pop is a defensive coach. If he's going to play on the Spurs, he would need to defend.

He's admitted to taking plays off. He's said that he doesn't always try his best. Whether or not he's a cancer can be debated, but it's certain that he wouldn't endear himself to any of the coaches or players in San Antonio if he did the same thing there.

Look at Dallas. Look at Portland from a few years back. Those teams plugged in stars but didn't have any balance. They didn't have any chemistry. They didn't have the players willing to do all the little things. There is a reason why your model of team building almost always fails. If you're into stats and figures and stuff to prove your point, please humor me. It works only a small percentage of the time.

I can't emphasize enough that you're missing the point. Many Spurs fans would trade the players you mentioned in a heartbeat for the right player. I'm all for adding a star, but it's got to be the right star. Someone who gives effort. Someone who plays defense. And a player who doesn't need 20 shots a night to be effective.

[rascal]

Brodels: That player you want will cost you more than Rose and Rasho and even Manu. Now was the time to get a player like Carter for less than equal value.

Carter was traded away for nothing. Toronto just wanted to move him out.

your the one not getting it. Carter's value was low and was a steal at the time he was traded. The spurs should have made some type of offer to get him. Carter has enough athleticism to be a good defender in Pops defensive scheme. What? does he have slow lateral movements or can't jump ? Of course not. If he was on a team that stressed defense he would be more than adequate as a defender.

Carter doesn't need a ton of shots to be good. He would be the 2nd scoring option on the spurs so he would get enough touches.

He has been great on the Nets and all he needed was a change of teams and some motivation and inspiration that he was on a team that cared about winning. I don't see how being on the spurs would make Carter any less effective than what he is doing on the Nets.

[rascal]

Carter > Manu

[GoSpurs21]

Carter > Manucarter has always played in the leastern conference. no way is carter even 1/4 as tough as Manu. carter is always getting hurt, while Manu plays hurt and has way more heart than carter ever will. you can continue to live in your dream world though. what has carter ever won?

[ChumpDumper]

Carter isn't a max player.

Manu is a bargain.

[SequSpur]

Hey dumb asses. Carter has just ave. 30+ over a 5 game road trip to the West Coast while leading his team to a 3 and 2 record which is pretty good for a wuss huh?

All of you need to shut the fuck up because you obviously don't know shit about basketball.

Carter is a max player and Manu is wannabee maxplayer.

FO.

[SequSpur]

Oh and ding dongs... The Nets are only 2.5 games back now from their division leaders after winning 4 in a row.

Wow.

Nah........ we couldn't use Carter............................

Duncan and Carter would've been a dynasty.

[GoSpurs21]

yea and the 3 wins were against GS, lakers and Utah with all 5 games against teams that dont play defense (with the exception being Utah). He point total was 32, 23, 17, 30, and 30 for an average of 26.4. Last time I checked 26.4 > 30+, yea you really know shit about basketball.

as for Tim and carter being a dynasty, that's only IF (and a big if) carter stays healthy. Even then I dont think its a lock. You go on keep dreaming and acting like a jackass, I know it makes you feel better.

[ChumpDumper]

3 and 2?

2.5 games out of still being below .500?

:lol

You'll have to do better than that.

The Nets would have the 12th spot in the west NAILED DOWN right now, bitches!

Recognize!

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Sequ,

Why is this so hard to understand?

1. It's before the All-Star break
2. It's definitely way before the post-season.

Let's see Half Man Half a Season show up in the playoffs, hell let's see him playing ball in May or April, then you may have a point.

[SequSpur]

Vince Carter is now a candidate for MVP.

Nough said ding dongs.

Add 31 for tonight and another win. 5 in a row. Now 1.5 back.

STFU Chumpdumper, you don't know shit about basketball anyway.

[SPARKY]

So he can take a lot of shots to score a lot of points. Just what is needed in the Spurs system, someone who will crank up 25 jumpers a game (and miss 15 of them).

Lemme guess, the next argument will be that he's taller than Ginobili.

[ChumpDumper]

Hell, you don't know basic math.

Which is worse?

[SequSpur]

Leave it to you bookworms to pull out a fucking calculator took make a point about an annual allstar and try to make a point.

STFU.

[Manu20]

Vince Carter is now a candidate for MVP.


:lol

[GoSpurs21]

5 in a row?
Jan 25 loss to Sac
Jan 26 win @ GS
Jan 28 win @ LAL
Jan 29 win @ Utah
Feb 1 win @ Chic

That looks like 4 to me...but what do I know
Keep dreaming though maybe someday it will come true. The rest of us will just enjoy living in the real world.

[ChumpDumper]

Leave it to Sequ to repeatedly kick his own ass in a thread.

Too easy.

[SequSpur]

Carter: Player of the Week
Vince Carter led his team to a 3-1 week, averaging 25.0 points on .494 shooting, 7.8 assists and 3.3 rebounds, to earn NBA Eastern Conference Player of the Week honors. He led the Nets to their first winning Western Conference trip since the 1997-98 season, beating Golden State, Los Angeles Lakers and Utah. Carter also claimed the title of NetsDaily Player of the Week.

Whip cream on top dumb asses.

[ChumpDumper]

Bruce got player of the week too.

And I hear he can count and divide....

[SequSpur]

http://lp.imageg.net/prod?set=key[name],value[SEQUSPUR]&set=key[number],value[15]&set=key[displaysize],value[220]&load=url[http://chains.imageg.net/graphics/dynamic/chains/p889008_customback.chain]

[SequSpur]

Silence........ Just as I thought.

[ChumpDumper]

Silence for what?

VC is an admitted quitter and proven pussy.

[SequSpur]

Carter: Player of the Week
Vince Carter led his team to a 3-1 week, averaging 25.0 points on .494 shooting, 7.8 assists and 3.3 rebounds, to earn NBA Eastern Conference Player of the Week honors. He led the Nets to their first winning Western Conference trip since the 1997-98 season, beating Golden State, Los Angeles Lakers and Utah.

STFU.

[ChumpDumper]

Post Bruce Bowen's POW. I guess he's an MVP too....

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Come on, his team is 1.5 back in the Atlantic, in the East.

If he was half as good as you made him out to be, he'd surely have his team at the top of the East.

[SPARKY]

Wow, he can score a lot of points on a lottery bound team that must mean he's good.

[SequSpur]

Pre Carter: 9 and 16 7 games back

Carter: 10 and 10 1.5 games back

STFU.

[SPARKY]

Wow, now that's impact.

[SequSpur]

Spurs were 9 and 11 in the first 20 games last year and look where they ended up. I wouldn't count the nets out just yet.

Nets will be first in their division by the end of the month.

[ChumpDumper]

When you can lead the division being under .500, you're weak.

[SPARKY]

Er um the Spurs have that Duncan guy.

[whottt]

Pre Carter: 9 and 16 7 games back

Carter: 10 and 10 1.5 games back

STFU.


Coinciding with the return of Jason Kidd...Remember, Kidd is a poor man's Magic...Kidd isn't going to win a title on any team on which he is the best player...but he can win a lot of games and get a team to the playoffs.

Why don't you tell us what Toronto's record was with Carter...

And BTW, Kidd still wants out of NJ...so he obviously doesn't think VC is the saviour...not that Kidd isn't a dumbass himself though..

Fuck both of them...especially VC, and fuck anyone that wanted to trade Manu for him, or thinks a team would have taken our high paid, longterm signing scrubs for him.

[SequSpur]

Yeah, Kidd looked like he had a problem with Carter tonight during the game. Are you serious? Where in the hell is Kidd going to go?

The Nets can be just as competitive as anyone in the East.

As far as their record, no kid, no carter, nothing for the first 15 games? And now they are getting their team back and now their only 1.5 games back?

STFU.

[whottt]

Kidd has been trying to force a trade all season long...

[samikeyp]

Kidd has been trying to force a trade all season long...

Jason or Joumana? :)

[T Park]

The hypocrisy of Sequ lives on.

Rips Nesterovic for being soft, and not tough and playing good in the 4th quarters.

But wants a huge pussy like Vince Carter who couldn't hit a clutch shot to save his life.

Only in his oompa loompa world.

[rascal]

I shot down all the weak reasons why Carter would be bad on the spurs.

Ask almost anyone outside of san antonio(Spur fans) and Carter > Manu

Face it. The spurs should have made an offer to get Carter.
They missed an opportunity to get a star at a bargain price.

[johnny00]

I shot down all the weak reasons why Carter would be bad on the spurs.

Ask almost anyone outside of san antonio(Spur fans) and Carter > Manu

Face it. The spurs should have made an offer to get Carter.
They missed an opportunity to get a star at a bargain price.
Well root for fuckin, NewJersey dweeb. He wouldn't have worked on this team

[smeagol]

rascal, VC is a very good player. He is just not the right fit for Spurs.

One thing, you compare Manu's career stats to VC and IMO that comparison does not tell you the whole story. If you want to swap them, its important for you to check out how their stats look this year.

And by the way, Manu's stats in the first year were tainted given that he missed many games due to an injured ankle, not to mention the fact he only averaged 20 mpg, while you boy Carter has only averaged less than 35 mpg twice in his nine year career (his carrer average is 37.6 mpg).

Another thing, Manu's overall stats have improved every year since the '02/'03 season. VC's stats are going sideways.

Manu's YTD stats:

FG% 3P% FT% RPG APG SPG BPG TO PPG
.489 .394 .803 4.4 3.9 1.76 .38 2.31 15.9

VC's YTD stats

FG% 3P% FT% RPG APG SPG BPG TO PPG
.437 .365 .722 4.4 4.2 1.30 .78 1.88 20.0

In any case, the fact that the only poster who backs your point is Sequ speaks tons.

[Useruser666]

Manu gives the Spurs what they need. I don't think the Spurs need a quitter.

[office handle]

what the spurs really need are more white europeans, south americans, and surfer dudes.

[rascal]

Carter gets more minutes now and even in his first year because he is more worthy of getting those minutes.

He is a better player.

Career stats are a better indicator than stats from this year because carter's stats in Toronto were low. A more accurate indicator if you want stats from this year are Cartrer's stats since he went to NJ. That's the motivated player the spurs would have gotten.

Still I see no valid arguments as to why Carter couldn't do well with the spurs.

The Spurs could have made an offer and if it didn't work out they would of at least had some interest and tried.

And it doesn't matter how many back me up here. Most here believed the spurs would beat the lakers last year too. This board is heavy in homerism.

It was a missed opportunity to get an impact all star for lees than equal value.

[samikeyp]

I don't think the Spurs need a quitter.

looks like a valid reason to me.

hey, I have always been a big fan of Vince Carter but anyone quits on his team is someone I don't want on my favorite team. I don't question his talent...I question his desire and committment.

[office handle]

perhaps because carter needs a lot of touches to be effective on offense and on defense he makes brent barry look like bruce bowen.

and theres also that nagging injury thing.

[smeagol]

He is a better player.
Which does not mean he is a better fit.

That's the concept that needs to sink into that thick skull of yours.

[Useruser666]

Carter gets more minutes now and even in his first year because he is more worthy of getting those minutes.

He is a better player.

Career stats are a better indicator than stats from this year because carter's stats in Toronto were low. A more accurate indicator if you want stats from this year are Cartrer's stats since he went to NJ. That's the motivated player the spurs would have gotten.

Still I see no valid arguments as to why Carter couldn't do well with the spurs.

The Spurs could have made an offer and if it didn't work out they would of at least had some interest and tried.

And it doesn't matter how many back me up here. Most here believed the spurs would beat the lakers last year too. This board is heavy in homerism.

It was a missed opportunity to get an impact all star for lees than equal value.

Nobody can stand behind you when you're in a corner.

Talking about homers, who is the poster that has 95% of their post count in this thread and this thread alone?

[GoSpurs21]

Carter gets more minutes now and even in his first year because he is more worthy of getting those minutes.

He is a better player.

Career stats are a better indicator than stats from this year because carter's stats in Toronto were low. A more accurate indicator if you want stats from this year are Cartrer's stats since he went to NJ. That's the motivated player the spurs would have gotten.

Still I see no valid arguments as to why Carter couldn't do well with the spurs.

The Spurs could have made an offer and if it didn't work out they would of at least had some interest and tried.

And it doesn't matter how many back me up here. Most here believed the spurs would beat the lakers last year too. This board is heavy in homerism.

It was a missed opportunity to get an impact all star for lees than equal value.how in the hell do you know that the Spurs didnt make an offer to Toronto? Are you privy to all the phone calls RC makes? You and sequ are just speculating out of your ass about that.

[Frenchise player]

I am not a specialist of salary cap, but I know that Carter is paid the max and the only reason why the trade was so good for the nets is that they had Zo in their team who was a payed max too. In Spurs case, they would have to trade Vince for Parker and Manu to not have to pay the luxury tax.
Toronto wouldn't have accepted a trade with Malik or Rasho since they wanted cap space or a good trade.
Well, I think that even you Rascal wouldn't give up Parker+Manu for Vince.

[smeagol]

Well, I think that even you Rascal wouldn't give up Parker+Manu for Vince.
Never underestimate rascal's level of senselessness . . .

[boutons]

NJN is only 2 games out of 8th seed, 35 games.

I agree, with RJ in there, they'd be as tough as anybody in the EC.

[Brodels]

I shot down all the weak reasons why Carter would be bad on the spurs.

Ask almost anyone outside of san antonio(Spur fans) and Carter > Manu

Face it. The spurs should have made an offer to get Carter.
They missed an opportunity to get a star at a bargain price.

You never learn, do you? Instead of actually responding to the arguments, you simply restate your case over and over again.

For the third time: most here would agree with you that Carter is more talented than Manu. If you look at Carter's career, he has shot the ball well and carried his teams when he has gotten lots of touches. He hasn't been a difference maker when he's been forced to take less shots. He wouldn't be the first option in San Antonio. He is a franchise player. He isn't a support player.

For the second time: you have no idea what the Spurs may have offered for Carter. Perhaps they offered Duncan and Manu and Parker combined. We simply don't know.

You talk like the Spurs could have gotten Carter if they would have wanted to. But nobody knows if Toronto would have been (or actually was) interested in anything the Spurs were offering. You can make up trades in your head all day. But until you are in the position to actually pull the trigger on an NBA trade, you're scenerios are nothing but fantasy. It's possible that the Spurs did have some interest in Carter, and if the Spurs didn't have any interest, which is likely, it's possible that Toronto simply wouldn't have been interested in anything the Spurs could have offered anyway.

If you understood NBA basketball at least a little bit, you would know that throwing stars together is not the most successful way to build a franchise. Finding a star or two and surrounding him with players that fill needs is what good personnel people do.

Carter is a definite risk and he doesn't fill any specific need on the team. Your method of building a team doesn't work. There are other stars that the Spurs should show interest in if they become available. But Carter simply wouldn't be a good fit.

[Spurminator]

.

[office handle]

man who gives a damn the spurs would never have traded for vince carter.

[SpurYank]

Manu for Carter? Would you trade for Bonds? A-Rod? Sosa? All non-winners! Or would you trade for someone who has championships under his belt? Someone who brings out the best in every other team member? Someone who, when he makes one of his unpredictable "patented" moves, all his team members jump up in amazement? Someone who excites not only fans, but his team members as well?

Good thing no one in the Spurs organization has your mentality.

[ChumpDumper]

I'll give this to VC, he turned real aggro in the paint against the Celts once his team was down by 20.

Wake me when Pierce is available.

[SequSpur]

you're stupid.

[ChumpDumper]

Pierce > Carter

[rascal]

Brodels: I responded to all the arguments. Go back a page or two and read.

All your doing is restating. Carter won't be a good fit because he would take fewer shots. That doesn't make any sense. He would take enough shots to be a difference maker. He would be the 2nd scoring option.

And when has he been forced to take fewer shots? Of course Carter has never gone far in the playoffs. Carter has been on weak Toronto teams and has never played with a dominant interior player like Duncan.

Pop isn't stupid to not have his best perimeter threat and offensive finisher get enough shots. Is that your only reason? Come on bring something more than that.

I don't know if the spurs could have gotten Carter but did they even try? I doubt it.
With their lousy recent trade history i doubt they even had any interest. We have heard in the past when they did have some interest and considerd trades for Sprewell for example but backed out but I didn't hear anything about Carter.

[ChumpDumper]

Really, what would our record be right now with Carter?

Undefeated?

Depends on whether he wants to play or is injured or decides not to drive like tonight?

[rascal]

And another thing Brodels.

The lakers threw together a bunch of stars (really ex stars in Payton and Malone) and beat the spurs last year.

You surround Duncan with more talented players and they will win.
You upgrade some of your role players with better players and your better.

[ChumpDumper]

You surround Duncan with more talented players and they will win.Because they suck on ice right now.

Really, if this is the best bitch you can come up with the entire first half of the season, the Spurs are in good shape indeed.

[rascal]

The spurs have had good regular season records before but didn't have enough in the playoffs.

Put Duncan on any team in the league and there a playoff team. Surround Duncan with some talent(Present day spurs) and their contenders. Suround him with a couple of all stars and its a dynasty.

[ChumpDumper]

So if Manu is an all-star this year?

[T Park]

of course.

Make a trade, cause the team is struggling and has no hope of getting better.


What nonsense.

[Nikos]

The spurs have had good regular season records before but didn't have enough in the playoffs.

Put Duncan on any team in the league and there a playoff team. Surround Duncan with some talent(Present day spurs) and their contenders. Suround him with a couple of all stars and its a dynasty.

Duncan had David Robinson and got his ass swept out of the playoffs by the Lakers in 2001. What is your point? Some years he could not even win 60 with David Robinson (who was still excellent in the late 90s and early 00s).

A couple of All Stars? Did Jordan ever even have a couple of all stars? Did Shaq ever have a couple of all stars? Did Detroit have any all stars?

What the hell makes you think that the Spurs automatically SHOULD win a title cause they have Duncan? How come Shaq and Kobe could not beat the Pistons? They were two elite players and they could not outduel Billups and a bunch of defensive role players? Think Karl Malone's absense might have had something to do with that?

Oh yeah, and it was really obvious the Spurs were going to lose by a miracle against Fisher. I am sure you were smiling then, saying "I knew it all along".

If you think the managament of the Spurs fucked up so badly, and cannot take it anymore, go root for another team. Perhaps the team you feel will SURELY beat the Spurs?

No team is gurunteed a title.

[Brodels]

All your doing is restating. Carter won't be a good fit because he would take fewer shots. That doesn't make any sense. He would take enough shots to be a difference maker. He would be the 2nd scoring option.

And when has he been forced to take fewer shots? Of course Carter has never gone far in the playoffs. Carter has been on weak Toronto teams and has never played with a dominant interior player like Duncan.

He's taken fewer shots when other teams have taken him out of the game. He took fewer shots at times when he became passive. And he's taken fewer shots when his team didn't get him involved early. And if you watch Carter play when he isn't getting a ton of shots, you'll notice that he really isn't much of a difference maker. He hasn't done much to help his team win when he hasn't had the ball in his hands a lot. He's done well only when he's been the focal point of the offense.


Pop isn't stupid to not have his best perimeter threat and offensive finisher get enough shots. Is that your only reason? Come on bring something more than that.

Sometimes that isn't up to Pop to decide. If Duncan is priority #1 on offense, it's not too difficult for the opposing defense to choose who gets open shots. He wouldn't get the shots that he got in Toronto. And when he got less shots in Toronto, he was pretty useless. He needs shots to be effective.

At least Manu and Parker do other things to help the team win when they aren't scorer. That isn't to say that those two players are better than Carter, because they aren't, but they do fill a role. The Spurs have a go-to player. You can argue that they still need help on the offensive end, but they need support scorers, not a franchise player.

Again, your system simply doesn't work. You can shout down everyone as much as you want, but what you advocate is a system of failure. What many others are advocating has worked time and time again.


I don't know if the spurs could have gotten Carter but did they even try? I doubt it.

So you're criticizing Spurs management without even knowing what went on? You're criticizing Spurs management because you think they might not have thought about trying for Vince? That's your weakest take yet. At least criticize them for what they have or haven't done. Don't criticize them for something you think they may have or haven't done.


With their lousy recent trade history i doubt they even had any interest. We have heard in the past when they did have some interest and considerd trades for Sprewell for example but backed out but I didn't hear anything about Carter.

Again, you simply 'doubt that they had any interest.' In reality, it's clear that you really have no idea what management's interest level was. Just because Mark Stein didn't report something on ESPN doesn't mean that Carter wasn't talked about. You simply have no idea, and criticizing management when you really have no factual information about what went on is pretty weak.


The lakers threw together a bunch of stars (really ex stars in Payton and Malone) and beat the spurs last year.

Payton and Malone weren't stars any more. They were role players, and they filled a role nicely. The Lakers had two stars, and even two primary options couldn't coexist there.


You surround Duncan with more talented players and they will win.
You upgrade some of your role players with better players and your better.

Well, then, give some examples. Identify the last team to add a superstar in the middle of the season and win a championship. Explain why teams like the Kings and Blazers of the the early 90s failed. It's hard to argue that they didn't have the most talent in the NBA. Why didn't they win? If more talent = more winning, those two teams should have multiple titles. They didn't win because the pieces didn't fit together well. The Kings didn't have role players willing to do the dirty work. The Blazers had too much talent.

The Pistons won the title last season, but it's certainly arguable that the Pacers, Spurs, Lakers, Timberwolves, Mavs, Kings, and even Grizzlies were more talented. How did that happen?

[SequSpur]

Exactfukinly.......

Spurs are a great season team but only have 2 championships in 10+ great years.

Pathetic.

[ChumpDumper]

And Carter has?

His ass handed to him by Pierce tonight.

[Nikos]

Sonics had some monstorous regular seasons and in about 2 or 3 of them never got past the second round. Actually lost in the first one year when they won 63 games. Had all the talent a team needed. And lost to Denver. Wow.

Spurs are not the only team in the 90s not to win titles while having great regular seasons.

[smeagol]

Where the fuck will Sequ and rascal hide when the Spurs win it all this year with "untalented" Parker and Ginobili?

At least Sequ is around to show some positive emotion when the Spurs win. But rascal is only here when the Spurs loose or to bitch about "missed" trades.

Truly sad.

[Brodels]

While I agree that Pierce > Carter, I've seen a lot of him because of where I live and I don't think he would be a good fit for the same reasons that Carter wouldn't be a good fit. Pierce has got some issues and tends to sulk when the system isn't centered around him and when the ball isn't in his hands.

While we're fantasizing about the Spurs trading for another star, I'll start a list. I feel that Mike Redd, Ray Allen, Steve Nash, Kirilenko, Boozer, Kidd, and Ben Wallace would absolutely excel in the Spurs' system. I'm not advocating that the Spurs make any trades, but I can see how each of those players could fill a need and fit in right away.

[T Park]

Mike Redd would be fantastic to have.

Parker
Redd
Ginobili
Duncan
Nesterovic


would be fantastic.


Nash would excel, because of his piss poor D.

[Brodels]

Mike Redd would be fantastic to have.

Parker
Redd
Ginobili
Duncan
Nesterovic


would be fantastic.


Nash would excel, because of his piss poor D.

Nash can play anywhere and excel. His D isn't as bad as some claim.

I'd take the lineup above any day. It's well balanced, talented, and I just can't see how other teams could stop the Spurs from scoring.

That is, of course, if Pop removed the chains.

[RBallgame]

There is no way in hell I would give up Manu no way no how, The thing that makes the Spurs so good is Chemistry everyone Knows there role. we have 6 to 7 players locked for the next 4 to 7 yrs the main ones are Manu, Tony Parker, Tim Duncan, Brent Barry, and Bowen why mess up the Chemistry

[GoSpurs21]

but VC has helped the Nets win 5 straight and VC averaged 30+ points doing it, well that's what sequ believes

reality is VC is over rated and quits on his team...no way in hell do you allow a player like that on the Spurs again....Rodman was the one time experiment and it failed misserably....we dont need quitters

[Ghost Writer]

Welcome, rascal.

Excellent thread.

[rascal]

Brodels: Kobe and Shaq existed very well together basketball wise, 3 titles and a finals appearance in 5 years. Their personalities were the problem not co-existing on the basketball court together.

I remember the majority on this board down playing the additions of Malone and Payton saying all those stars couldn't play together because there weren't enough balls to go around. Most were content with the role players the spurs had but they weren't enough to get past the Lakers.


And just go back 1 year, Detroit won a title with an all star mid season addition R Wallace. Wasn't Drexler another mid season addition to a championship team? I'll have to check on when the Rockets added Drexler.

[Nikos]

Sheed was not an all star, and is playing poorly this season. Somehow I think you are choosing to ignore this? Just because they took a chance and it worked, does not mean any athlete who is acquired on the Spurs will automatically yield a title. Its a matter of preference for the Spurs. If they feel they can get a good player and take on a good risk, they will. You cannot assume they did not try to get some players -- you act as if the Spurs are owed everything, and should automatically win the title cause of Duncans presense. If it were so damn obvious, do you not think Pop would do something about it by now?

Yes Kobe and Shaqs personality problems, why the heck do you think it is that the Spurs take role players who will fit rather than take chances on risky athletes who many would not fit the system? Again a matter of preference.

[rascal]

Brodels: And to answer to why the Kings and Blazers never won a title. They weren't the most talented teams. They were weak inside and didn't have a good enough center. Center is the most important position. Teams that have all star dominant offensive and defensive centers go far in the playoffs.

Shaq, Akeem and the Duncan/ Robinson combination were too much for these teams.

[Nikos]

Yeah Sabonis sure sucked. That Laker team despite winning 67 games looked pretty darn shaky until the Blazers collapsed that lead in the 4th.

All you do is state who wins with an 'I told you so' fashion. Then you wonder why others on this board don't respect your takes?

[Useruser666]

http://img136.exs.cx/img136/8953/vincecarterspur4ok.jpg

[smeagol]

http://img136.exs.cx/img136/8953/vincecarterspur4ok.jpg
Now Useruser 666, you've gone and given rascal and erection . .

[Extra Stout]

And just go back 1 year, Detroit won a title with an all star mid season addition R Wallace. Wasn't Drexler another mid season addition to a championship team? I'll have to check on when the Rockets added Drexler.In both of those cases, the existing mix wasn't working, and it was worthwhile to add the "missing piece." Drexler provided the perimeter scoring Houston needed. Wallace provided frontcourt scoring and defensive length Detroit needed at the 4.

In both cases, since the team wasn't going to get over the top as is, it was worth the risk to add a player midseason. Wallace worked out perfectly for the Pistons. Drexler and the Rockets didn't get all the kinks worked out until the playoffs began.

On the Spurs, the current mix has them at 38-10. They are easily the NBA's best team, and are on pace for the fourth-best point differential* in NBA history (+11.0), better than any of the Showtime Laker teams, or Larry Bird's Celtic teams, or the 1966-67 Sixers. Statistically so far, the only teams in NBA history that have been stronger than these Spurs are the 1972 Lakers (+12.3, 69-13), the 1996 Bulls (+12.2, 72-10), and the 1971 Bucks (+12.2, 66-16). A Gaussian correlation** of the Spurs' season-to-date projects them finishing with 64-68 wins. It would be a galactic upset for these Spurs not to win the 2004-05 NBA championship. And yet for some incomprehensible reason, rascal wants them to make a complete overhaul to the roster.

If there is any Achilles' heel, it is very small, and it concerns their consistency.*** Roster overhaul can only hurt consistency.

"Corporate knowledge" from having their core players together now for three years is one of the most important elements of their offensive efficiency. It's taken at least half the season for Brent Barry finally to get comfortable. Why the frick would they want to add Vince Carter?

Vince Carter is not the missing piece on this team. If there is any at all, it would be a long small forward, or more help inside -- role players only. At this point, any major upheaval to the roster such as acquiring a new second scoring option can only cause harm. They have plenty of perimeter scoring. All Carter provides is unnecessary star power.

From what I can figure, rascal must be:
1) An inscrutable malcontent
2) A bitter enemy of Gregg Popovich
3) Secretly a fan of some other team
4) Severely lacking in hoops knowledge.

* Point differential has a stronger correlation to team strength than win-loss record.
** The Gaussian correlation uses point differential and the standard deviation of point differential to predict a winning percentage based against a normal distribution. It is a better predictor than actual win-loss record, or point differential alone.
*** While the Spurs' point differential is +11.0, the standard deviation is +/-11.6!!

[SequSpur]

Watching the Nets vs. the Pistons right now.......

Carter couldn't possibly form a dynasty next to Duncan, no frickin way. :rolleyes

He only has 41 pts, 11 boards, a few blocks, a few steals, and a handful of assists against the former champs and one of the best defenses in the NBA.

So please Shut the Fuck Up and quit overrating talent, Manu is no Carter.

Carter is bad ass.

[SequSpur]

http://img136.exs.cx/img136/8953/vincecarterspur4ok.jpg

Hmmm... nice pic, but it looks deformed, can you do another?

[exstatic]

From what I can figure, rascal must be:
1) An inscrutable malcontent
2) A bitter enemy of Gregg Popovich
3) Secretly a fan of some other team
4) Severely lacking in hoops knowledge.
1 and 4. He's Ghost Lite.

[SLOVENIAN 8]

http://img136.exs.cx/img136/8953/vincecarterspur4ok.jpg

:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

[Mark in Austin]

wow. maybe we could trade for Carter, Webber, van Horn, Kwame Brown, and bring Hedo back too. Then we could have five players on the floor with no heart, no balls, and no chance of winning a championship.

Checked with the Portland Trailblazers lately? It takes more than talent to win a Championship.

[Brodels]

Brodels: Kobe and Shaq existed very well together basketball wise, 3 titles and a finals appearance in 5 years. Their personalities were the problem not co-existing on the basketball court together.

I remember the majority on this board down playing the additions of Malone and Payton saying all those stars couldn't play together because there weren't enough balls to go around. Most were content with the role players the spurs had but they weren't enough to get past the Lakers.


And just go back 1 year, Detroit won a title with an all star mid season addition R Wallace. Wasn't Drexler another mid season addition to a championship team? I'll have to check on when the Rockets added Drexler.

Wallace and Drexler were parts to the puzzle. They weren't franshise players at the time and they didn't need tons of shots to be effective. Wallace plays defense and rebounds even if he isn't scoring. Drexler was a winner with intangibles and a pretty good sense of what his role needed to be.

Both players filled specific needs, and that's why they worked. Carter doesn't fill a specific need, and he's still needs a ton of shots. He doesn't do much else to help his team win if he isn't shooting the ball.

Kobe and Shaq complimented each other well. And when one was having a big game, the other was still very effective. Kobe plays great defense when he wants to and passes the ball very well. In his prime, Shaq could rebound and defend the paint with the best of them. They complimented each other well and did lots of things on the court.

The same is true with Malone. He willingly took a lesser role because he wasn't the player he was previously. He rebounded and played great defense. He provided leadership. Carter is a scorer. That's simply what he is.

And Payton didn't fit there at all. They didn't win because of Gary, they won in spite of Gary in the playoffs.

[Brodels]

Brodels: And to answer to why the Kings and Blazers never won a title. They weren't the most talented teams. They were weak inside and didn't have a good enough center. Center is the most important position. Teams that have all star dominant offensive and defensive centers go far in the playoffs.

Shaq, Akeem and the Duncan/ Robinson combination were too much for these teams.

Sabonis was arguably a top-six center when the Blazers were at their best. What else do you want? Vlade, too, was still one of the better centers in the game when he played with Sacramento. And both teams were pretty strong at power forward with Webber, Rasheed, and a healthy Brian Grant. Those teams were actually very strong inside. I'm not sure exactly what more you could possibly want from a frontcourt.

Besides, the Pistons won last year with a center that doesn't meet your criteria. If a winning team needs a competent offense and defensive center, Ben Wallace doesn't fit the bill. He's not very good offensively.

Robinson wasn't among the best centers in the league when the Spurs last won the championship. He was an important part of the team, but there were several centers in the league capable of doing more than he could do at that point.

And if you consider Bill Cartwright and Luc Longley to be upper echelon kind of guys, I suggest you watch some more Bulls games from the mid 90s.

[exstatic]

Portland wasn't talented. What a shitty take. Then idiot-boy has the nerve, in the same post, to fawn all over the acquisition of 'Sheed last year by Detroit. Hey dumbass: 'Sheed was on those Portland teams!

[exstatic]

I was watching the movie Gattaca, and the similarities just jumped out at me. You have the underdog overachiever Vincent/Manu and the golden boy slacker Anton/Carter-McGrady. Twice, once as boys and once as adults, Vincent had to save Anton when they were having a contest to see who could swim further out into the ocean without turning back.
Anton: "We have to go back. We're out too far. How are you doing this Vincent?"
Vincent: "You want to know how I beat you? I never saved anything for the swim back."

That's Manu, in a nutshell.

[smeagol]

Carter couldn't possibly form a dynasty next to Duncan, no frickin way. :rolleyes

He only has 41 pts, 11 boards, a few blocks, a few steals, and a handful of assists against the former champs and one of the best defenses in the NBA.

So please Shut the Fuck Up and quit overrating talent, Manu is no Carter.

Carter is bad ass.
He scored 41 pts but he took 27 shots. Against PHO, Manu took 22 shots and scored 48 pts.

Carter did it against a good team, Manu did it against the second best team in the league.

You point is . . .?

[ALVAREZ6]

You point is . . .?
What he's trying to say is he wants to be butt-fucked by Carter.

I mean, nothing else makes sense.

[rascal]

Portland wasn't talented. What a shitty take. Then idiot-boy has the nerve, in the same post, to fawn all over the acquisition of 'Sheed last year by Detroit. Hey dumbass: 'Sheed was on those Portland teams!

Ex: Your a dumbass. R wallace was in response to had any teams made a mid season trade to pick up an all star (or ex all star) and then went on to win it all.


Also the Spurs and Lakers were stronger than Portland because of Robinson and Duncan and ONeal and Bryant and Akeem.
Those 5 players were better than anyone on Portland and gave the Lakers spurs and rockets decided edges. Portland's management did well in getting solid players but they couldn't get a center good enough to match up with the lottery prizes that the other teams had.


R Wallace was Portland's best player after Drexler had left. Portland was weak at center and couldn't get by the Spurs Lakers or Hoston in the west. The spurs and Lakers had better teams because of their overall strenghts at center.

Brodels: Sabonis was past his prime when the Blazers got him. His best years were over seas. He was a jump shooting center who didn't play strong under the basket. A soft Euro who rather take jump shots and soft running hook shots than bang inside. Divac wasn't anything special especially when compared with what the Spurs had or Shaq or Akeem. neither sabonis nor Divac could match up with the talent the other top teams in the west had at center and if your weak at center or down low your generally going to struggle against the teams that are strong under the basket.

Also Sabonis was also often injured and really began to tail off quickly because of his bad legs.



MJ was an exception of being on a team that won despite a weak center.
But your talking about the best player ever.

But this is all getting off the subject.
Carter would have been a good addition on the spurs and if the spurs could have gotten him they should have gone for it. Especially if they also could have kept Manu. But I see nothing that indicated the spurs even considered Carter. Carter was a missed opportunity.

I still don't see anything convincing that carter would not work out on the spurs.

Now the main argument against it is he has to take a ton of shots to be effective. Thats total BS, thats really reaching.

[Marcus Bryant]

Carter is a guy whose name was made on dunking the rock. You would think that Spurs fans would understand that winning championships is about something other than that.

[Nikos]

To be most effective Carter does need shots.

Thats not to say he could not be effective as a sidekick to Duncan. He just would not score 25ppg on 50% shooting like you almost seem to imply.

[SequSpur]

Marcus,

Watch a Net game.

Out.

[cqsallie]

At the risk of seeming to be unknowledgeable, I don't get the Vince Carter thing. Why are some of you guys always engaged in the mix and match? Must be because you're playing the game online with your specific picks.
That is not reality!!!! Sure, you can get yourselves the best players at every position in your dream world, but the reality is that the best players at every position will not - I repeat WILL NOT guarantee a winning season. There's much more involved.
Chemistry is a potent force, which some of you seem to ignore. All you have to do is look at the wreck that used to be the Lakers.
Stop fiddling with the dials, put down the remote. I know, it's a man thing, but leave it the hell alone. We're doing just fine without Vince Carter and without Karl Malone, but you guys can't keep your hands off the remote in the hope you'll discover something better by changing the channels.
Is this a commitment problem?

[Mark in Austin]

Anybody who thinks Carter displays something the Spurs organization values or sees as a current deficincy on the team is completely out of touch with reality.

Carter takes twice as many shots as Manu and averages a whopping 4.6 points more per game.
Carter isn't clutch.
Carter is afraid of contact.
Carter is a dogshit defender.
Carter's work ethic is non-existant.

Explain to me how a player who doesn't play defense, would take shots away from Duncan and other more efficient players, hasn't noticably improved one single aspect of his game since he's been in the league, and is mentally almost as soft a Hedo is a "missed opportunity" for the Spurs franchise.

Damn, he'd fit in just fine on the Mavericks or Celtics, though...

[SequSpur]

Carter is afraid of contact.

Obviously you didn't watch the Detroit game yesterday. Carter wasn't shooting thirty footers for 41. He was going to the hole over the Wallace twins and every other Piston jersey. Also on defense he was blocking shots, stealing the ball, etc. etc.

You can't be serious.

Dude will be an MVP candidate, if not the top 2 or 3 by the end of the year.

[Mark in Austin]

Call me when he's done that consistantly (play D and go to the hole) for more than a month or so.

I gauren-fucking-tee you that once he's been in New Jersey for more than a couple months, he'll be back to the same shit he was doing in Canada.

Maybe, just maybe he'll prove me wrong. Hell, Ricky Davis has turned things around this year. But for every positive result like Davis has turned out to be, there are 20 examples of trades for talented but problem players that don't turn out well.

Past performance is the best indicator of future performance. And there is nothing in Carter's past that shows he has the ability, desire, or fortitude to play Spurs basketball.

[SequSpur]

Carter is starting for the Allstar team. Because he sucks?

Carter once jumped over a 7 footer to dunk the ball, is that avoiding contact?

He gets hurt because he doesn't avoid contact. If you want to say that he shouldn't have dissed Toronto and continued to play hard, then that's cool, however, I don't think he wanted to play there, it was in the press, he asked for a trade and continued to play hard and they kept him, so the next step was to be an asshole so they would have to get rid of him. Is the Nets a great organization to be in either? Probably not, but they have been playing great lately and they are making a few moves to at least be a playoff team. Vince Carter is very good, you'll see.

[Useruser666]

Carter = MVP Most Valuable Pussy

[Mark in Austin]

He gets hurt because he doesn't avoid contact.

That is funny. He has jumper's knee. You know, from the year he and McGrady turned most practices and quite a few games into slam dunk competitions instead of playing as a team?


Carter is starting for the Allstar team. Because he sucks?

Please tell me you're not serious. Grant Hill and Alonzo Mourning were both voted as startes by the fans in injury years. They must have been MVP candidates too, right?


Vince Carter is very good, you'll see.

This is typically something that is said about a rookie or second year player... not something that has to be said about a supposed MVP candidate.

[SequSpur]

Note: He is very good. You'll see.

That means you.

Beno may be good one day, Rasho may get some balls one day, blah blah blah....

Carter is de shit.

[ALVAREZ6]

Dude will be an MVP candidate, if not the top 2 or 3 by the end of the year.
Carter....MVP... nice try Sequ

[usckk]

Why are we still arguing over this? It's pointless.

[SequSpur]

43 Bitches! Whose your Daddy? Thats right... I am.

Bring it now homers!

[SequSpur]

*Sitting here with arms crossed waitin on the homer.........

[smeagol]

Again, VC is an outstanding player but he needs minutes and shots to score +40 pts.

Tonight he played the full 48 minutes and took 32 shots for 43 pts.

Manu against PHO played 44 minuts and took 22 shots to score 48 pts.

[rascal]

Again, VC is an outstanding player but he needs minutes and shots to score +40 pts.

Tonight he played the full 48 minutes and took 32 shots for 43 pts.

Manu against PHO played 44 minuts and took 22 shots to score 48 pts.


So what is your point? That Manu can do likewise if given the opportunity?

Your just making huge assumptions there. Carter has been the go to guy for years at Toronto and now with the nets. Go look up his career stats to refresh your memory.

He has proven he can do it. Its just your speculation and assumption that manu is the type of player that can post similar numbers to what Carter is putting up with the Nets. Until I see it happen over the course of a full season and not just a game or two, he isn't at Carter's level.

Manu doesn't even play enough minutes as compared with Carter and thats not a good thing when comparing which player is better or more important to his team.

[Manu20]

http://www.nba.com/media/spurs/wp0405_manuas_800.jpg

You like it rascal? :smokin

[smeagol]

So what is your point? That Manu can do likewise if given the opportunity?
Yes



Your just making huge assumptions there. Carter has been the go to guy for years at Toronto and now with the nets. Go look up his career stats to refresh your memory.
Not sure why they are huge. I could sau you are making huge assumptions that he can't.



He has proven he can do it. Its just your speculation and assumption that manu is the type of player that can post similar numbers to what Carter is putting up with the Nets. Until I see it happen over the course of a full season and not just a game or two, he isn't at Carter's level.
Look, rascal, you probably thought Manu couldn't do many of the things he's done since last year becase you have wanted to trade him for "real talent" ever since I've been posting on this board. So sit down, relax and you will see the things Manu can do. He has already convinced the NBA coaches and people like Magic and Barkley he is an AS. In the long tun, even dorks like you and Sequ will come around.



Manu doesn't even play enough minutes as compared with Carter and thats not a good thing when comparing which player is better or more important to his team.
Yes you can.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

So what is your point? That Manu can do likewise if given the opportunity?

Your just making huge assumptions there. Carter has been the go to guy for years at Toronto and now with the nets. Go look up his career stats to refresh your memory.

He has proven he can do it. Its just your speculation and assumption that manu is the type of player that can post similar numbers to what Carter is putting up with the Nets. Until I see it happen over the course of a full season and not just a game or two, he isn't at Carter's level.

Manu doesn't even play enough minutes as compared with Carter and thats not a good thing when comparing which player is better or more important to his team.
No, I think his point is just as one good game doesn't mean Manu is MVP caliber, then VC's 43 points today show shit!! He is just not MVP caliber like Nash has been this year.

[GoSpurs21]

Dam Carter was clutch tonight against pittyful laker squad. This is the type of player the Spurs could really use. Wait, we already have Barry nevermind.

EDIT:

Merged this thread for you.

:smokin
Thanks TiMVP...once again you are da MAN

[exstatic]

Shameful that the Kidd/Carter Nets lose to the Kobe-less Lakers.

[rascal]

Bumped

Nikos: The most you had Carter contributing to the spurs is just as a "sidekick".
He would be more than that on the spurs. He would have stepped right in to become the badly needed 2nd scoring option the spurs didn't have in game one against Denver.
He would have filled the go to player that can spell Duncan and carry the team.

Sequa Spur was proven right in this thread the Nets made the playoffs. I didn't even think they would because of their slow start and the Jefferson injury but I knew carter was a great trade for them and a missed opportunity for the spurs to land a top player in the league.

[CosmicCowboy]

Sequa Spur was proven right in this thread the Nets made the playoffs. I didn't even think they would because of their slow start and the Jefferson injury but I knew carter was a great trade for them and a missed opportunity for the spurs to land a top player in the league.

uhhh...Spurs had NO chance of getting Carter...he made it clear he wanted to be in the NY market...