Forget construction jobs, here comes the REAL whammy

[RandomGuy]

I have heard a figure that as much as 25% of the US economy is somehow tied directly or indirectly to the automotive industry.

While I don't know how much stock to put in that statistic, I do know that the automotive industry is very important to the US economy as a whole.

One remark made during the Ohio Dem primary stays in my mind:

"The decisions in Washington D.C. matter less to jobs in Ohio than the Decisions made in Detroit [by the big three auto makers]."

Bits:


We have Dow chemical raising prices by about 20%. Link (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080528/ap_on_bi_ge/dow_price_increase)

Implications: Chemical industry products are used by EVERYBODY and every industry, including agriculture. This makes such a move highly inflationary.


A year ago, automotive industry execs could see a contraction Link (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m5CNK/is_2007_Jan_4/ai_n24998383)

Implications: some of our nation's largest employers have been preparing for this for a few months, and we WILL see job cuts.


Ford is set to cut fully 12% of its salaried workforce Link (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080528/bs_nm/ford_cuts_dc)

Implications: This is likely a first round of cuts, and the first symptom of a larger trend. Ford is also in better shape than the other two of the big three from what I have been reading.

Current projections show a 8-10% drop in new car sales, from 16.2Million in 2007, to 15 million in 2008.Link (http://www.statesman.com/business/content/business/stories/other/05/28/0528carloans.html)

Implications: credit bubble fallout hits other areas unrelated to housing, spreading the credit crunch like a disease.

This is the ripple effect of the current credit crunch hitting at the same time that oil/energy prices do.

Stagflation. Prices rise, but not people's ability to pay them.

I was a bit pessimistic about the economy before, but was waiting for the other shoe to drop.

This is that "shoe". Our economy will adjust, but it will be painful for a few years.

Start cutting down your debt loads as fast as possible.
Look at your monthly budget and spending habits for corners to cut.
Build up a cash reserve.
Take a good, honest look at your resume and job competitiveness.

[boutons_]

yep, the Big 3 are and will be suffering horribly as the demand fo SUVs and other gas guzzlers (TX cowboys and their overpowered, tarted-up pickups?).

As always, the Asians and Europeans have a fleet of fuel-efficient vehicles and technolgies to meet the high-mileage demand, since they've been for years taking the oil situation seriously, vs the jokers in USA.

I think it was Ford that has already forecast losses through 2010.

The knock-on effects will be horrendous, just like for the home construction industry.

This is extreme on the high-end, but makes the US gaz guzzlers look like dinosaurs:

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/05/hypermiling-couple-peugeot-australia-guiness-world-record.php

[RandomGuy]

Ford has indeed recently cut it's earnings forecasts.

I still think Ford has the best chance out of all the big three to come out on top of this one. They are a step or two ahead of GM and Chrysler.

[xrayzebra]

Yep you all can thank all the environmentalist for all this crap. And
you can really thank them some more when we start having brown
outs in our electric energy needs. No drilling for oil or gas in our
part of the world. No nuclear plants, no coal fired plants, windmills
kill birds so they should be studied carefully, and wind doesn't blow all the time. And you cant store wind power. Damns need to be
removed so rivers can flood naturally to preserve the (fill in the
blank). And don't forget someone will find out solar energy, if and
when it comes down in price, will harm something. Bet on it.

And dear old butons blames the big three for building SUV and
trucks, which is what the public wanted. Wonder why Toyota and
several other Jap companies build full size pickups.

Yep we need some more of that mass transit and light rail and
other BS transportation methods. And it is really going to be fun
"putting" you car on instead of "getting" into one.

You cats make fun of this old guy, but I remember when you could
buy gas at a reasonable cost, drill for oil and gas where you wanted
and the big arguments was who got the royalties from the gulf.
(Texas won). And you could sit you rear end down in a big soft
seat, had a smooth ride and no road noise. Try to find one of these
wonderful foreign made cars that can match that.

You laugh. Well think about how they made water scarce in
San Antonio with the stroke of a pen, about some fishes that were
not even native to the springs and some kind of wild rice. How
you can only water certain hours of the day, even when under their
terms there is not shortage of water.

[Nbadan]

Don't forget the costs of food and other durable and non-durable goods all of which use petroleum based products either in their make or in transportation to market...

[DarkReign]

Yep you all can thank all the environmentalist for all this crap. And
you can really thank them some more when we start having brown
outs in our electric energy needs.

...

you can only water certain hours of the day, even when under their
terms there is not shortage of water.

No offense, young man, but its your generation that fucked everything up with that simplistic attitude and no eye toward the future.

Thanks for leaving us with the bag. If my father were alive and all his hippie-do-nothing peers were too, I'd give it to him as well. You 50s-70s babies with your blind patriotism and loyal, subserviant retardation.

Did you think the good times just never end? Seriously, I sometimes wonder who lives in a fantasy world. The guy slabbering on about how gas was cheap, country was #1 and college wasnt needed because the rollercoaster will never run out of steam or the doomsday dork and his picket sign declaring "The End is Near"?

[xrayzebra]

No offense, young man, but its your generation that fucked everything up with that simplistic attitude and no eye toward the future.

Thanks for leaving us with the bag. If my father were alive and all his hippie-do-nothing peers were too, I'd give it to him as well. You 50s-70s babies with your blind patriotism and loyal, subserviant retardation.

Did you think the good times just never end? Seriously, I sometimes wonder who lives in a fantasy world. The guy slabbering on about how gas was cheap, country was #1 and college wasnt needed because the rollercoaster will never run out of steam or the doomsday dork and his picket sign declaring "The End is Near"?

You are talking out your rear end, because you brain knows
better. It is the group I referenced who makes up
crisis where none exist. They fabricate shortages where
none exist. How. By simply limiting supply. Now
be a good boy and take you bottle and crawl back into
bed. That's a good son.

[RandomGuy]

I remember when you could
buy gas at a reasonable cost, drill for oil and gas where you wanted

Just.
Stop.
There, Mr. Selective Memory.

I am not old enough to remember this shit that happened before the environmental laws you hate so much were actually enforced, but I have read about them, but you can take the "let's go back to the good old days" and stick it where the sun don't shine.

Since you seem to have erased what doesn't fit from your worldview from YOUR memory, and some of the youngin's haven't had a chance to read about some of the happy fun shit your generation left ME and mine with...

Who can forget the fun days where RIVERS caught on fire:
http://www.great-lakes.net/teach/pollution/water/graphics/cuyahoga_lg.jpg


The pollution of our waterways became a national issue in June of 1969, the day that the Cuyahoga River, flowing through Cleveland, Ohio, on its way to Lake Erie, caught on fire because it was so polluted. Although this was not the first time that the Cuyahoga River had been in flames, the 1969 fire caught the attention of the nation and the fight began for increased water pollution controls, which eventually led to the Great Lakes Water Quality Act and Clean Water Act in the 1970s.

Link (http://www.great-lakes.net/teach/pollution/water/water1.html)

---------------------------------

and then there are the Dioxins. (http://www.ejnet.org/dioxin/)

Here is one of the most publicized, Love Canal. (http://www.epa.gov/history/topics/lovecanal/01.htm)


Quite simply, Love Canal is one of the most appalling environmental tragedies in American history.

But that's not the most disturbing fact.

What is worse is that it cannot be regarded as an isolated event. It could happen again--anywhere in this country--unless we move expeditiously to prevent it.

It is a cruel irony that Love Canal was originally meant to be a dream community. That vision belonged to the man for whom the three-block tract of land on the eastern edge of Niagara Falls, New York, was named--William T. Love.

Love felt that by digging a short canal between the upper and lower Niagara Rivers, power could be generated cheaply to fuel the industry and homes of his would-be model city.

But despite considerable backing, Love's project was unable to endure the one-two punch of fluctuations in the economy and Nikola Tesla's discovery of how to economically transmit electricity over great distances by means of an alternating current.

By 1910, the dream was shattered. All that was left to commemorate Love's hope was a partial ditch where construction of the canal had begun.

In the 1920s the seeds of a genuine nightmare were planted. The canal was turned into a municipal and industrial chemical dumpsite.
Landfills can of course be an environmentally acceptable method of hazardous waste disposal, assuming they are properly sited, managed, and regulated. Love Canal will always remain a perfect historical example of how not to run such an operation.

In 1953, the Hooker Chemical Company, then the owners and operators of the property, covered the canal with earth and sold it to the city for one dollar.

It was a bad buy.

In the late '50s, about 100 homes and a school were built at the site. Perhaps it wasn't William T. Love's model city, but it was a solid, working-class community. For a while.

----------------------------------------

Thanks for strip mining and all the lovely heavy metals... (http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2007/mar/20/minings_legacy_scar_kansas/)

http://www.ohvec.org/links/news/archive/2005/fair_use/11_09.jpg

--------------------------------------

[RandomGuy]

Here is exactly how unrestricted oil and gas extraction pollutes the areas around the drilling.

Pathways and Sources of Contamination
Oil and gas chemicals enter the environment via several pathways:


Drilling
Hydraulic Fracturing
Waste Pits
Spills
Releases to Air
THE DRILLING PROCESS

Drilling involves the use of muds to keep the drill bit cool and lift the rock cuttings out of the well bore. Muds may be water-based, oil-based or synthetic. They typically contain bentonite clay (or a synthetic polymer substitute), as well as other chemical additives that alter the mud properties (thickness, weight, bacteria proliferation, etc.).

Releases of drilling muds and additives to the environment can occur at the well site (spills, leaks from drilling reserve and waste pits/tanks), or mud injected underground can move through formations and contaminate surface or groundwaters.

Read about how PRESCO drilled a well and had the mud come to the surface in a spring 1/4 mile away.
HYDRAULIC FRACTURING

Hydraulic fracturing 'fracking' is a method of stimulating oil and gas wells. Typically, it involves pumping hundreds of thousands of gallons of fluids and sand into the oil or gas formation. At a certain point, the formation will crack open. Studies have found that anywhere between 25 and 82% of the fluids will return to the surface, but some chemicals are preferentially trapped in the formation. At the surface, the flowback fluids are held in pits or tanks prior to disposal. The sand is left in the formation to hold open the fractures, thus creating larger pathways for the hydrocarbons to flow to the well.

According to data from the Environmental Protection Agency, fracking fluids may contain a number of chemicals that are hazardous to human health.

There are numerous potential pathways for contamination of water and air by fracking fluids.

The most direct connection is if fracking fluids are injected directly into rock formations that also serve as freshwater aquifers and underground sources of drinking water. According to EPA, there are coalbed methane formations that undergo hydraulic fracturing, but also serve as freshwater aquifers.
Fracking chemicals have the potential to migrate, as liquids or gases, from leaky wellbores into adjacent groundwater aquifers. There is the possibility for migration may occur, as well, through vertical and horizontal fractures into groundwater or even to surface water.
Even if the fracking chemicals, themselves, do not migrate into groundwater, the hydraulic fracturing operation may change the underground geology in such a way that new pathways are formed that allow hydrocarbons such as methane, and benzene, to migrate away from their original location. Fracturing, which causes mini-seismic events under ground, may also introduce more sediment into groundwater aquifers, changing the water quality temporarily, or possibly permanently.
A final pathway for contamination is if fracking fluids are spilled onto the ground or into waterways. Spills may be of unused fracking chemicals, or used fracking fluids that flow back out of the well after it has been hydraulically fractures. Any volatile compounds in spilled fracking fluids may enter the air and be carried downwind.
Read about how the Amos family's water well was contaminated after hydraulic fracturing occurred near their home.
Read about a KERR McGEE fracking fluid spill that contaminated surface soils and entered an irrigation ditch.
WASTE PITS AND TANKS

A significant portion of the chemicals injected underground during drilling, hydraulic fracturing or well maintenance return to the surface, where they are stored, at least temporarily, in open pits or tanks. Produced water may also be stored in pits or tanks prior to permanent disposal (e.g., injection into a deep aquifer; discharge to streams). In some cases, produced water is left in open pits to evaporate.

According to an Argonne National Laboratory white paper, produced water contains many organic and inorganic compounds that can lead to toxicity. Naturally occurring contaminants include salts, which can be toxic to plants at high concentrations; hydrocarbons from the oil- or gas-bearing formations; metals, which may be naturally present in the deep groundwater; and naturally occurring radioactive materials (NORM).

A variety of treatment chemicals and additives may be present in produced water. Some of these chemicals can be lethal at levels as low as 0.1 parts per million.

The treatment chemicals used for gas processing typically include dehydration chemicals, hydrogen sulfide-removal chemicals, and chemicals to inhibit hydrates. Well-stimulation chemicals that may be found in produced water from gas operations can include mineral acids, dense brines, and additives.
For oil production, treatment chemicals are typically complex mixtures of various molecular compounds. These mixtures can include: corrosion inhibitors and oxygen scavengers to reduce equipment corrosion; scale inhibitors to limit mineral scale deposits; biocides to mitigate bacterial fouling; emulsion breakers and clarifiers to break water-in-oil emulsions and reverse breakers to break oil-in-water emulsions; coagulants, flocculants, and clarifiers to remove solids; and solvents to reduce paraffin deposits.
In Colorado, not all pits are lined, presenting the potential for liquid wastes to seep into soil and groundwater. Both lined pits and steel tanks may also cause contamination through leaks and overflow. Find out more about pits.

Another pathway for exposure to chemicals from waste pits is through volatilization of chemicals sitting in the pits. For example, benzene and other volatile (light) hydrocarbons that are dissolved in liquids will enter the air when the liquid is exposed to the atmosphere.

Read about how fluids from MARALEX's drilling pit seeped through the earth and contaminated a landowner's drinking water well.
SPILLS

Spills and leaks of raw chemicals or oil and gas wastes may affect land, water and air. In Colorado, the Colorado Oil and Gas Conservation Commission (COGCC) requires companies to report spills of fluids related to any unauthorized release of exploration and production (E&P) wastes that are 5 barrels or more in volume. In some cases, smaller spills are reported, e.g., if the spill enters surface or groundwater.

In the four-year period between June 2002 and June 2006, there were approximately 924 spills of oil and gas chemicals and wastes. Spilled products included: crude oil, condensate, produced water, and "other" products. The other products included diesel fuel, glycol, amine, lubricating oil, hydraulic fracturing fluids, drilling muds, other chemicals, and natural gas leaks.

Roughly estimated, 60% of the spills involved produced water; 34 % involved crude oil or condensate; and 12% involved spills of "other" substances. (Numbers add up to greater than 100% because some of the spills involved more than one type of fluid).


Colorado oil and gas spills affecting water (click here for a larger version of the chart)
Of the 924 oil and gas industry spills, 20% of them contaminated water: 14% of the spills affected groundwater; and 6% of all spills affected surface water.

As the chart shows, a large percentage of spills recorded by the COGCC do find their way into groundwater or surface water.

While some of the spills are accidents, acts of nature (e.g., lightning strikes) there are many spills that are preventable. For example, during the four-year period, Chevron had 57 incidents of produced water and two crude oil leaks caused by corroded pipes or fittings. It is likely that proper maintenance, pipeline integrity testing, and replacement of old equipment could have prevented many of these spills.

Download an OGAP report on Colorado Oil and Gas Industry Spills (June 2002 - June 2006). We are continuining to analyse the COGCC's spill data, so the spills report will be updated from time to time.

TOXIC AIR RELEASES

Venting and fugitive gas emissions
The primary component of natural gas is methane, which is odorless when it comes out of the gas well. At gas processing facilities, chemical odorants such as mercaptans are added to methane, so that consumers are able to smell it in the event of a gas leak. People living next to natural gas wells, however, will not smell any methane released to the atmosphere through venting or fugitive emissions (leaks).

In addition to methane, natural gas typically contains other hydrocarbons such as ethane, propane, butane, and pentanes. Raw natural gas may also contain water vapor, hydrogen sulfide (H2S), carbon dioxide, helium, nitrogen, and other compounds.

Almost all references to the odor of raw or wellhead natural gas state that it, like methane, is odorless. The Ohio Department of Natural Resources, however, advises landowners that one way to detect an abandoned oil or gas well on their property is if they smell "natural gas" odors coming from their tap water. So, in some cases, there may be a slight hydrocarbon odor associated with venting of natural gas.

If the concentration of H2S in the gas is high enough, there may also be a "rotten egg" odor associated with the gas.

Condensate fumes
Some natural gas wells produce a semi-liquid condensate along with the gas. Condensates are hydrocarbons that are in a gaseous state within the reservoir (prior to production), but become liquid during the production process. Condensates are composed of hydrocarbons (typically those containing five or more carbon molecules), as well as aromatic hydrocarbons such as benzene, toluene, xylenes and ethylbenzene (BTEX).

Condensates may give off a characteristic hydrocarbon or petroleum-type smell. BTEX give off a sweet, aromatic odor. Most people can smell benzene when it reaches levels of approximately 1.5 - 5 parts of benzene per million parts of air (ppm). The Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) has set maximum exposure levels for workers at 1 ppm (over an 8-hour period) and 5 ppm (over a 15-minute period). At levels above 150 ppm some people may begin to experience serious and irreversible health effects.

The vapors of benzene, toluene and xylenes are heavier than air and may accumulate in low-lying areas.

Odors from waste pits
Prior to disposal, drilling wastes (muds and cements), hydraulic fracturing (fracking) fluids and produced water are often stored in earthen or metal pits that are open to the air. There are hundreds of different chemicals that may be used during drilling, fracking and workover procedures, including acids, biocides, surfactants, solvents, lubricants and others. The odors associated with the chemicals will vary, depending on the concentrations, volumes, and combinations of chemicals used.

By-products from flaring
The by-products from burning natural gas vary depending on the composition of the gas and/or condensate being burned. There may also be additional by-products formed if some of the chemicals used during the drilling or hydraulic fracturing process are converted to a gaseous form and are burned along with the natural gas.

It is difficult to find information on the by-products of flaring specific to Colorado. The Ventura County Air Pollution Control District, in California, however, has estimated that the following air pollutants may be released from natural gas flares: benzene, formaldehyde, polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs, including naphthalene), acetaldehyde, acrolein, propylene, toluene, xylenes, ethyl benzene and hexane.

Glycol Dehydrator emissions
If the gas wells use glycol dehydrators to remove water from the gas, you may be smelling some aromatic organic chemicals. Regeneration of the glycol solutions used for dehydrating natural gas can release significant quantities of benzene, toluene, ethylbenzene, and xylene, as well as a wide range of less toxic organics. As mentioned above, BTEX have a sweet chemical odor.

Diesel fumes
Drilling, completion and workover trucks, rigs and equipment such as pumps typically run off of diesel-powered or gasoline engines. The exhaust fumes from gasoline and diesel fuels can produce emissions that are noticeable to people living downwind.

Polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs) are found in exhaust from motor vehicles and other gasoline and diesel engines. A long list of other air pollutants, including BTEX, formaldehyde and metals are also contained in diesel fuel combustion products.

[RandomGuy]

I say, yet again, the economic gains from unrestricted mining/drilling/polluting are paltry compared the economic loss of living with, or cleaning up the pollution.

Unless you want kids playing in mining waste piles, you have to do something.

Here are the 53 Superfund sites just in Texas that are so polluted they require cleanup:

Texas Site Status Summaries
(linky dinky doo) (http://www.epa.gov/earth1r6/6sf/6sf-tx.htm)
You will need Adobe Acrobat Reader, available as a free download, to view these files. See EPA's PDF page to learn more about PDF, and for a link to the free Acrobat Reader.

1) Air Force Plant #4 (General Dynamics) (PDF, 4 pp, 109K)
2) Alcoa/Lavaca Bay (PDF, 4 pp, 243K)
3) Bandera Road Groundwater Plume (PDF, 5 pp, 653K)
4) Bailey Waste Disposal (PDF, 5 pp, 422K)
5) Bio-Ecology Systems, Inc. (PDF, 3 pp, 61K)
6) Brine Service Company (PDF, 5 pp, 71K)
7) Brio Refining, Inc. (PDF, 2 pp, 75K)
8) City of Perryton Water Well #2 (PDF, 3 pp, 95K)
9) Conroe Creosote (PDF, 3 pp, 202K)
10) Crystal Chemical Co. (PDF, 5 pp, 99K)
11) Crystal City Airport (PDF, 4 pp, 82K)
12) Dixie Oil Processors, Inc. (PDF, 2 pp, 75K)
13) East 67th Street Ground Water Plume (PDF, 2 pp, 186K)
14) Falcon Refinery (PDF, 5 pp, 248K)
15) French, Ltd. (PDF, 5 pp, 93K)
16) Garland Creosoting (PDF, 4 pp, 69K)
17) Geneva Industries/Fuhrmann Energy (PDF, 3 pp, 120K)
18) Gulfco Marine Maintenance (PDF, 3 pp, 75K)
19) Hart Creosoting Company (PDF, 6 pp, 131K)
20) Highlands Acid Pit (PDF, 5 pp, 110K)
21) Jasper Creosoting Company (PDF, 6 pp, 434K)
22) Jones Road Ground Water Plume (PDF, 3 pp, 279K)
23) Koppers Co., Inc. (Texarkana Plant) (PDF, 6 pp, 64K)
24) Lone Star Army Ammunition Plant (PDF, 4 pp, 20K)
25) Longhorn Army Ammunition Plant (PDF, 6 pp, 131K)
26) Malone Services Company (PDF, 5 pp, 91K)
27) Many Diversified Interests, Inc. (PDF, 10 pp, 230K)
28) Midessa Ground Water Plume (PDF, 4 pp, 324K) (new)
29) MOTCO, Inc. (PDF, 4 pp, 158K)
30) North Cavalcade Street (PDF, 7 pp, 133K)
31) Odessa Chromium #1 (PDF, 4 pp, 55K)
32) Odessa Chromium #2 (PDF, 4 pp, 48K)
33) Palmer Barge Line (PDF, 3 pp, 89K)
34) Pantex Plant (USDOE) (PDF, 4 pp, 42K)
35) Patrick Bayou (PDF, 3 pp, 73K)
36) Pesses Chemical Co. (PDF, 3 pp, 65K)
37) Petro-Chemical Systems, Inc. (Turtle Bayou) (PDF, 7 pp 89K)
38) RSR Corp. (Murph Metals) (PDF, 3 pp, 89K)
39) Rockwool Industries, Inc. (PDF, 5 pp, 115K)
40) Sandy Beach Road (PDF, 2 pp, 98K)
41) Sheridan Disposal Services (PDF, 3 pp, 158K)
42) Sikes Disposal Pits (PDF, 4 pp, 184K)
43) Sol Lynn/Industrial Transformers (PDF, 3 pp, 200K)
44) South Cavalcade Street (PDF, 5 pp, 471K)
45) Sprague Road (PDF, 3 pp, 221K)
46) Star Lake Canal (PDF, 4 pp, 229K)
47) State Marine of Port Arthur (PDF, 3 pp, 80K)
48) State Road 114 Ground Water Plume (PDF, 3 pp, 238K)
49) Stewco, Inc. (PDF, 3 pp, 77K)
50) Tex-Tin Corporation (PDF, 3 pp, 72K)
51) Texarkana Wood Preserving Co. (PDF, 5 pp, 74K)
52) Triangle Chemical Co. (PDF, 3 pp, 157K)
53) United Creosoting Co. (PDF, 3 pp, 228K)

[RandomGuy]

Sorry, Ray, but this shit is YOUR fault.

Don't blame us for maybe being a *little* leery of unrestricted drilling, refining, and mining.

I can go on if you want me to, but you are decent enough to know I am right, even if you don't want to admit it.

[1369]

RG, concerning the "unregulated" mining and such, what's your take on the controls in place to date? Granted, the sins of the past (40+ years ago for most) still haunt us and will continue to do so (I've worked extensively at the #2 listed SF site you posted), but how do you see things now?

[RandomGuy]

RG, concerning the "unregulated" mining and such, what's your take on the controls in place to date? Granted, the sins of the past (40+ years ago for most) still haunt us and will continue to do so (I've worked extensively at the #2 listed SF site you posted), but how do you see things now?

The controls in place today are generally functioning well, up until the current administration.

I look at it from an economic perspective.

Strip mining and drilling carry costs. When pollution happens and is not paid for up front by the company doing the mining/drilling that is essentially stealing from the greater economy, as the costs of that pollution are foisted on the rest of us. The Superfund is an excellent example, but other costs like cancers in old mining towns, the collapse of areas like Love Canal, are also in there.

If you want to do strip mining, that is fine by me. I am not against such things per se.

BUT

You WILL return the area to exactly the way it was before you fucked it up, and I want absolutely NO long term pollution in the process.

If this forces costs beyond what is economical to extract the material in the first place, that just means that society in general doesn't value that material enough to pay for the true costs of extracting that material in the first place.

Pollution is cost shifting. It shifts costs away from the producers of pollution onto the rest of us. I would shift it back to the producers where it belongs, so that the ultimate costs of goods is paid for up front, and not 20+ years down the road.

[xrayzebra]

How many of you "youngin's" are in Texas? Funny thing happened
on the way to the "sludge pit". Super funds. Plumes. and such.
I have lived here for most of my life and somehow I managed to live
to a pretty good long life. And another funny thing happened. Most
people live to a ripe old age. Much longer than my ancestors or yours lived. How come. All this damn pollution you speak of. Maybe we should have some more of that stuff. Keeps people living longer it seems. Oh, one more little thing. How bout the Universities and colleges that live off that pollution. Give me a break. Pollution, how come everyone wants to live here?
You folks, as you say, drink all the cool-aid. Yeah oil pollutes but
there are a hundred other things that I could name that do the
same. Like water, like nature, like air. How about tanning factories.
Recycling plants, you know those guys who clean up after dirty
industries. Horse hockey. There is a price to pay for everything.
You want pollution, go into a poor housekeepers house.

You know I would bet that those that oppose me the most about
oil are the same ones that hire an exterminator to spray there house
to keep the bugs out. No way to prove it, but I would bet I am not
wrong.

[Anti.Hero]

Start cutting down your debt loads as fast as possible.
Look at your monthly budget and spending habits for corners to cut.
Build up a cash reserve.
Take a good, honest look at your resume and job competitiveness.

Yep. You can't help but laugh at all of these fools who keep diving deeper and deeper into debt. It's like smoking. You know it will fuck you up, why on Earth would anyone even consider doing it.

[Wild Cobra]

Don't forget the costs of food and other durable and non-durable goods all of which use petroleum based products either in their make or in transportation to market...
This has a measure of truth to it, but not the implication people immediately think.

I saw the numbers once computed at 8 MPG for an 18 wheeler. The added cost to goods when you calculate miles driven vs. payload is actually pretty small. Before someone uses this as an argument, please find the math.

Let's just make a guess till otherwise seen:

20,000 pounds of produce.

2,000 miles to market

Diesel price changes from $2.50 per gallon to $5.00 per gallon

7 MPG.

Do the math. Fuel cost changes from $714.29 to $1428.57. The per pound increase by $0.036... Yes, just over 3-1/2 cents per pound!

Another insanity, where the people listen to the media hype. They would make us think that doubling of fuel prices does the same to food prices. It's an excuse the retailers use to jack up prices beyond reason.

Sure, these numbers may not be real, but I am not going to take the time to find real costs. Besides, it varies by truck, driver habit, distance, and some loads are never full, or bulky rather than being able to fill near the maximum weight.

Anyone game to find the real numbers for a real situation?

[RandomGuy]

Anyone game to find the real numbers for a real situation?

There is a rather good economics paper on trucking here:

At this pdf file, (http://www.mountain-plains.org/pubs/pdf/MPC97-81.pdf) from a website called "mountain-plains.org", a non-profit organization dedicated to "the support of research and training concerning the transportation infrastructure and the movement of passengers and freight. The program aims to attract the nation's best talent to the study of transportation and to develop new strategies and concepts to effectively address transportation issues."

Government tax dollars at work. ;)



The base case for a five-axle semi pulling a 48-foot van at 55 miles per hour results in miles per gallon of 6.15 loaded and 7.81 empty. This estimate was confirmed to be a good estimation of fuel economy by Ron Hesh of Wallwork
Truck Sales. Ryder (1994) confirmed that not only is fuel efficiency weight sensitive, but aso speed sensitive. The estimation in the article is that for every mile per hour over 55, there is a 2 ercent loss in fuel efficiency. The spreadsheet model adjusts automatically for speed over 55 miles per hour.

Given that the report was done in 1997, and that newer rigs are both a bit more fuel efficient, but driving a bit faster to offset this efficiency, I would guess the MPG factor above hasn't changed much.

One has to remember that trucks must recoup ALL fuel costs, not just fuel costs incurred hauling loads, i.e. "deadhead" miles. This complicates the calculations somewhat.

Further complicating the calculations is the fact that the above gas mileages are for non-refrigerated tractor-trailers. Milk and frozen products will probably be the most sensitive to fuel price increases.

[RandomGuy]

http://www.mysmallbiz.com/pg/pub/idea_details.php?id=359

Also gives a rough breakout of expenses for independent trucking, although they don't back out fuel costs. I would guess that is part of Cost of Goods Sold (CGS), although it might easily be part of "other".

Let's plug it in to a good case example:

Profit margin: 22% of revenue.
Initial fuel costs as a % of revenue, 7.8%

Triple fuel costs, while holding revenue constant:
22%-15.6%= 6.4%

That is still profitable, right?

Not exactly.

Assume your revenues are about $300,000 per year.

In the first scenario, your profit, i.e. your personal income, was $66,000 per year before self-employment taxes, or about $55,000 before income tax.

Now take away $46,000 of pre-tax income, and you are left with a gross of $19,200 before self-employment, or around $16000 after SE taxes.

Profitable?

Yes.

Economically feasible? No. You have gone from roughly 28 dollars per hour to just under $9/hour.

The local burger joint offers that to start with a 12% raise after 3 months, and no uncertainty as to ultimate income.

Given equal choices, you then get rid of your truck and flip burgers because you are economically better off.

[RandomGuy]

Another insanity, where the people listen to the media hype. They would make us think that doubling of fuel prices does the same to food prices. It's an excuse the retailers use to jack up prices beyond reason.

Food prices are sensitive to fuel/oil prices in the following ways:

Inputs like fertilizer, pesticides, and fuel for harvesting equipment.
Transportation to wholesalers, then transportation to retailers.
For produce and milk, you also have the issue of added fuel costs for refridgeration during the process.

For processed foods, energy costs further creep into the equation, because it takes energy to can things, transform base grains into, say, breakfast cereals, make tomotoes into spaghetti sauce, etc.

Farmers face increased input prices, they pass that along to wholesalers, who also are hit with increased input prices, then they turn around and pass the farmers+the wholesalers increases on to retailers, who now are having to add the farmers+wholesalers+retailer input prices.

These kinds of economics are what will favor a lot of local food production. Those little farmers markets where you cut out all the middleman expenses, suddenly become MUCH more cost competitive.

[RandomGuy]

Bump.

Just 'cause it is more interesting than the "bash-a-candidate" crap on the front page.

[Extra Stout]

Domestic automakers' sales plummet (http://www.mlive.com/business/grpress/index.ssf?/base/business-6/1212584706103390.xml&coll=6)

Wednesday, June 04, 2008 By Rick Haglund

DETROIT -- Skyrocketing gasoline prices, a sluggish economy and a major shift away from the purchase of gas-guzzling trucks continued to hammer domestic automakers in May as their sales fell by double-digit margins from a year ago.

General Motors Corp. reported Tuesday sales plunged 27.5 percent last month because of falling truck sales and several strikes that limited the availability of popular models such as the Chevrolet Malibu and Buick Enclave.

Ford Motor Co.'s sales dropped 15.8 percent last month from May 2007 while Chrysler LLC's sales fell 25.4 percent.

Toyota Motor Corp., which in recent years has expanded its lineup to include more full-size pickups and SUVs, reported its sales fell 4.3 percent.

"It was a double whammy of a segment shift away from trucks to cars and a soft economy," said Tom Libby, senior director of industry analysis at J.D. Power and Associates of Troy.

But Honda Motor Co., posted a sales increase of 15.6 percent from a year ago. Honda reported May was its best sales month ever in the United States.

The Honda Accord sedan outsold the Ford F-series pickup, which had been the best-selling vehicle in the United States for the past 31 years. Honda sold 43,728 Accords in May, while Ford sold 42,973 F-series trucks.

"It was an interesting month -- really interesting," said Joe Serra, president of Grand Blanc-based Serra Automotive, which owns 22 dealerships, including 11 in Michigan.

"Sales fluctuated from brand to brand. My Honda operations had record months."

But Serra said sales at his Hummer dealership in Grand Blanc were hurt more by lack of availability of the midsize H3 SUV, caused by a strike at American Axle & Manufacturing Holdings Inc., than by a lack of demand for the gas-guzzling vehicle.

"It has a unique look," he said. "There are people who have wants and needs in that segment."

GM announced Tuesday it is considering selling off the Hummer brand because of what the automaker sees as permanently high gasoline prices.

Nissan Motor Co. posted a sales jump of 8.4 percent from the month compared with May 2007.

Across the industry, overall sales of cars and trucks fell 10.7 percent last month, according to Autodata Corp., of Woodcliff Lake, N.J. Truck sales fell 23.7 percent while car sales rose 2.4 percent as $4 a gallon gasoline shifted consumers to buy more fuel-efficient cars.

But many consumers, worried about rising energy and food prices, aren't buying.

Autodata said May sales ran at an annual rate of 14.3 cars and trucks, down by 2 million vehicles from the annualized sales rate in May 2007.

"Obviously, consumers are feeling the pinch at the pump," said Mike DiGiovanni, GM's chief market analyst.

[BradLohaus]

These kinds of economics are what will favor a lot of local food production. Those little farmers markets where you cut out all the middleman expenses, suddenly become MUCH more cost competitive.

My dad and I were talking about that just the other day. People will have to fundamentally change their diets if the price of oil keeps getting higher in the years to come. Less dining out, less (or no) crap-food at the mega grocery store, more basic, healthy, and local food.

Which is how they should live anyway.

[ElNono]

So it's the environmentalists that are causing all this.
Yet, the only ones laughing all the way to the bank are Oil co. stockholders and their record profits.

Give me a fucking break.

[RandomGuy]

Ford tells union more cuts needed as market slumps

By TOM KRISHER, AP Auto Writer
1 hour, 38 minutes ago

DETROIT - With the U.S. auto market worsening for Ford Motor Co. almost daily, managers told union officials Friday that the company will have to further reduce its factory work force in the coming months.

The slumping U.S. economy has cut U.S. auto sales by 8 percent during the first five months of the year, but it's been a double hit on Ford, General Motors Corp. and Chrysler LLC as consumers shun their high-profit pickup trucks and sport utility vehicles for more fuel-efficient models as they cope with $4 per gallon gasoline.

United Auto Workers union officials were told in a meeting that Ford needs to make additional cost cuts "so that we can make the vehicles in an efficient way that customers are buying," said Ford spokeswoman Anne Marie Gattari.

At the meeting, attended by about 300 executives, plant managers and union officials from across the U.S., Ford reiterated previous statements that it would make buyout and early retirement offers at targeted factories as it tries to further pare its payroll.

Gattari said Ford is still trying to determine which factories would get the offers, but prefers to use them over more dramatic steps such as closing factories.

"We have a lot of cost-cutting elements that we can work on together," Gattari said. "We're looking at doing those kinds of things before we do anything more drastic that no one wants to do."

Ford announced in May that it would cut production of trucks and SUVs, but increase factory output of cars and crossovers through additional shifts and overtime and the realignment of some of its manufacturing capacity. The company also said it plans to accelerate the North American introduction of some of its small cars from Europe and South America, although it didn't reveal which vehicles.

Industry analysts have said Ford simply has too many factories making trucks for a market that even the automakers say has permanently shifted to vehicles that get better gas mileage. Many are operating with only one shift, which is inefficient, analysts have said.

Also in May, Ford announced it will further cut its salaried work force.

"We have to do the same thing in our manufacturing operation," Gattari said Friday.

During the past three years, Ford has cut its hourly work force by about 40,000 in the U.S. and Canada, she said.

Earlier this year, Ford had announced corporate-wide buyout and early retirement offers for U.S. hourly workers, but only 4,200 took the offers, about half of what the company wanted.

Ford now is hoping more workers will take the buyouts.

"We need the help of our local union leadership to help make that happen," Gattari said.

The company has about 54,000 hourly workers represented by the United Auto Workers union.

The market deterioration and possibility of plant closures could make workers rethink the offers.

Ford says it will cut production and retool some factories to align itself with the rapidly changing consumer demand. Details of its plans are expected in July.

The company announced May 22 that it was cutting North American production for the rest of this year and no longer expects to return to profitability by 2009. Ford sales fell 16 percent in May compared with the same month last year and were down 11 percent for the first five months of the year.

Although Ford made $100 million in the first quarter, it lost $15.3 billion during the previous two years and had to mortgage its assets to stay afloat.

Ford shares rose 22 cents, or 3.7 percent, to $6.22 in afternoon trading Friday.

[boutons_]

"less (or no) crap-food"

... the cheapest source of high-density calories, preferred by poor, ignorant people. Eating well is more expensive.

No sympathy for the US auto mfr dinosaurs,

what evil, greedy dumbfucks,

already uncompetitive with the Japs and Germans,

now not ready with fuel-efficient cars,

as if they couldn't see $4+ was coming (and staying),

and buying/compromising Congress to gut the recent revision of CAFE.

[Wild Cobra]

RG, in post #18, this may be true. However, you forget that the costs do get passed on to the shipping prices. Some situations pass the costs on better than others. To take all the loss to the truckers bottom line is wrong. If they cannot pass the costs along, then they are of a weaker part of the industry that will get harmed anyway by some other factor. If the do not pass the extra costs along, that is their bad business sense.

#19, yes, all these products cost more at the market point. We are now adding percentages of percentages. There is no radical increased. Retailers are exploiting the fact that shipping prices do rise by jacking retail prices up more than justified. If there is to be a windfall profit, I'd look at the retail level. Food prices for example have been on a step price over the years before transportation costs were rising. It's natural to shift blame.

[RandomGuy]

RG, in post #18, this may be true. However, you forget that the costs do get passed on to the shipping prices. Some situations pass the costs on better than others. To take all the loss to the truckers bottom line is wrong. If they cannot pass the costs along, then they are of a weaker part of the industry that will get harmed anyway by some other factor. If the do not pass the extra costs along, that is their bad business sense.

#19, yes, all these products cost more at the market point. We are now adding percentages of percentages. There is no radical increased. Retailers are exploiting the fact that shipping prices do rise by jacking retail prices up more than justified. If there is to be a windfall profit, I'd look at the retail level. Food prices for example have been on a step price over the years before transportation costs were rising. It's natural to shift blame.

Well, such increases have a snowball effect in terms of inflation.

All purchasers of labor of any kind, i.e. all businesses, have to pay their people a bit more to compensate for higher fuel prices, so there is one pressure on costs.

Energy rates, such as electricity, have experienced similar run-ups as oil, so there is another bit.

We all see the large refrigeration units in grocery stores, and those SUCK a lot of electricity in hot climates.

These increases are seen up and down the value chain. The farther you are from the source of the product, the more steps there are TO increase.

You want to make some money in the long term, buy some farmland on the edge of a sprawled city somewhere with some solid water rights. By growing and selling directly to people, you will be VERY cost competitive as time goes on. Having a good chunk of land that can be used for renewable energy like a small dammed stream, or some wind/solar would be another big bonus.

[boutons_]

"all businesses, have to pay their people a bit more to compensate for higher fuel prices, so there is one pressure on costs."

In theory, yes, but most businesses will pass through and mark up their inflation costs to consumers without compensating their employess.

If businesses do increase their payroll to compensate employees for inflation, then that increase gets passed through and marked up to consumers. aka, wage-price inflation spiral.

Ever had a job that indexed your salary to annual inflation rate, currently at 3.5 - 4% ?

As employees get more expensive, businesses try harder to engineer their businesses to use fewer employees (destroy jobs) or use cheaper employees (destroy good paying jobs).

[Extra Stout]

"all businesses, have to pay their people a bit more to compensate for higher fuel prices, so there is one pressure on costs."

In theory, yes, but most businesses will pass through and mark up their inflation costs to consumers without compensating their employess.

If businesses do increase their payroll to compensate employees for inflation, then that increase gets passed through and marked up to consumers. aka, wage-price inflation spiral.

Ever had a job that indexed your salary to annual inflation rate, currently at 3.5 - 4% ?

As employees get more expensive, businesses try harder to engineer their businesses to use fewer employees (destroy jobs) or use cheaper employees (destroy good paying jobs).
OTOH, the weak dollar creates incentive to expand manufacturing in the U.S. for export and create jobs. The employees won't be able to afford the stuff they make, tho.

We're the new Mexico!!

[RandomGuy]

In theory, yes, but most businesses will pass through and mark up their inflation costs to consumers without compensating their employess.

Depends on the business.

Price inflation means that labor suppliers (i.e. everybody who works) will start demanding more wages. Price pressure will be everywhere, although with an economic slowdown, there will be a good chunk of slack in the labor market, but this is always a rather temporary condition.

Keep in mind that baby-boomers are getting set to withdraw a hefty portion of the labor supply from the market.

It will be interesting to see what effect this all has in 5-10 years.

[RandomGuy]

As employees get more expensive, businesses try harder to engineer their businesses to use fewer employees (destroy jobs) or use cheaper employees (destroy good paying jobs).

Up to a point. Businesses that can't attract people and have crappy corporate cultures tend to be poor perfoming ones.

Working people too hard, and getting "cheap" employees have very definite costs associated with them, and any good CEO knows this.

Yes, profits come first, but taking such an overly pessimistic view in this regard misses the wider picture.

Successful businesses strike a balance between hiring and keeping good people and those profits.

Hiring and keeping good people is a necessary, but not sufficient condition to long-term profitability. I have yet to see a really successful large corporation that DOESN'T take fairly good care of its workers as much as possible.

That doesn't mean, however, that social safety nets, like unemployment insurance, and other forms of "entitlements" aren't needed.

[DarkReign]

You want a comprehensive, up to date bulletin of the auto industry?

http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=AUTO01

and

http://freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=Business01

No other input needed. It sucks, its getting worse and the UAW is a small percentage of the people being fucked in this country because of it.

[Extra Stout]

You want a comprehensive, up to date bulletin of the auto industry?

http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=AUTO01

and

http://freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=Business01

No other input needed. It sucks, its getting worse and the UAW is a small percentage of the people being fucked in this country because of it.
When Chrysler gets liquidated in the next two to three years, the remaining Big Two will get a temporary dead-cat bounce.

And it appears Mulally at Ford might actually have a clue.

[Extra Stout]

Ford purportedly is betting the farm on retooling its truck and SUV plants to produce Americanized versions of its European lineup of cars, like the European Focus and Focus Coupe, the C-Max, the S-Max, the Kuga, and the Transit van.

They are working to accelerate production of the subcompact Fiesta in Mexico.

I think this is the best chance for them to survive.

[DarkReign]

Ford purportedly is betting the farm on retooling its truck and SUV plants to produce Americanized versions of its European lineup of cars, like the European Focus and Focus Coupe, the C-Max, the S-Max, the Kuga, and the Transit van.

They are working to accelerate production of the subcompact Fiesta in Mexico.

I think this is the best chance for them to survive.

Absolutely. Its one of the more sound "ideas" Ive heard from the market. Ford has a lot of cash, so to speak. Moreso than GM and a helluva lot more than Chrysler.

To re-tool their entire North American Truck/SUV operation is a daunting task. Even for a company that reports in the red, but still has a lot of cash on hand.

The sister company to the company I work for stands to benefit immensely from such a move. Theyre going to need duplicate, brand new lines of their existing subcompacts/economy vehicles.

But, I am slightly surprised to not have heard any new developments from the project engineers/salesmen from our sister company. Making a bold announcement like Ford did (and it is quite bold), one would expect them to move on this very quickly.

Still no word.

As an aside, it seems to me that Ford has the "better" long term view of things in comparison to global market conditions. Moreso than GM. I dont count Chrysler....like you said, they are only a couple years from liquidation (Im holding out hope, but thats definitely the track they seem to be moving down).

GM has embraced the global market beyond belief. GM is not an American company anymore, so dont feel guilty for not buying one. They are our largest customer (to the tune of 30 some-odd machines/lines a year) and not one those machines for the past two years have been installed on American soil.

Korea. France. Germany. China.

Gm is HQed in America. Beyond that, they define all that is wrong with the manufacturing model in this country.

[RandomGuy]

When Chrysler gets liquidated in the next two to three years, the remaining Big Two will get a temporary dead-cat bounce.

And it appears Mulally at Ford might actually have a clue.

You forget that Chrysler has some very deep pockets backing it. It is not publicly traded anymore, and that has some definite advantages when it comes to restructuring. I wouldn't be so quick to write them off.

Ford, on the other hand, is a step or two ahead of GM in terms of dealing with the reality of expensive gas. I agree Mulally seems to be on the right track. Look for another year or two of pain, then a return to profitability about when they project it will happen now.

It is a good time to sink some cash on a consistant basis into Ford stock. Short term you will lose during the pain period, but after a couple of years, when it returns to profitability and starts paying dividends again, you will be very glad you bought it on the cheap.

(note: RG does not own Ford stock. Yet.)

[DarkReign]

You forget that Chrysler has some very deep pockets backing it. It is not publicly traded anymore, and that has some definite advantages when it comes to restructuring. I wouldn't be so quick to write them off.


Hmmmm, it was my impression Chrysler did not have the cache of cash their competitors do.

Again, it was my impression. I dont pretend to know much about Cerebus, but Im sure a quick google search could fix that. As it were, I am of the mind that Chrysler is reverting to its early 80s status, only this time without the bailout. Especially now that its privately owned.

Overall, I understand the labor gap between the world's auto companies is a major reason why the American companies are being bitch-slapped in the market (and coincidentally on the balance sheet), but there has to be more to the story.

Im sure there is, and I dont pretend to know the inner workings of their business model, but I do know they are absolute snails when it comes to change. The suppliers to these companies have been feeling the sting for 15 years, yet they operated with a business as usual approach.

Is this the negative nature of publicly traded companies? The board(s) that sat in command during the late 80s and early 90s had to know the end was nigh, but chose to ignore and inflate. Full-well knowing the shift was imminent, they chose bolster their stock price at all costs and pass the buck to the next poor sucker.

I understand the CEOs and board chairs are ultimately beholden to nothing but the stock price, but if there had been a true leader in that timeframe to make the necessary changes then instead of now, the American companies would be flourishing instead of perishing.

Interesting to me what pride, resume' building and status quo can do to what was once considered "untouchable" companies.

[RandomGuy]

Hmmmm, it was my impression Chrysler did not have the cache of cash their competitors do.

Again, it was my impression. I dont pretend to know much about Cerebus, but Im sure a quick google search could fix that. As it were, I am of the mind that Chrysler is reverting to its early 80s status, only this time without the bailout. Especially now that its privately owned.

Overall, I understand the labor gap between the world's auto companies is a major reason why the American companies are being bitch-slapped in the market (and coincidentally on the balance sheet), but there has to be more to the story.

Im sure there is, and I dont pretend to know the inner workings of their business model, but I do know they are absolute snails when it comes to change. The suppliers to these companies have been feeling the sting for 15 years, yet they operated with a business as usual approach.

Is this the negative nature of publicly traded companies? The board(s) that sat in command during the late 80s and early 90s had to know the end was nigh, but chose to ignore and inflate. Full-well knowing the shift was imminent, they chose bolster their stock price at all costs and pass the buck to the next poor sucker.

I understand the CEOs and board chairs are ultimately beholden to nothing but the stock price, but if there had been a true leader in that timeframe to make the necessary changes then instead of now, the American companies would be flourishing instead of perishing.

Interesting to me what pride, resume' building and status quo can do to what was once considered "untouchable" companies.

Cerebrus is a private-equity firm that specializes in taking over unprofitable multi-billion dollar firms, taking them private, turning them around, and then selling them for a massive profit.

They have a LOT of access to capital/cash, and as full owners will force change down the gullet of Chrysler at a pace faster than a publicly traded company with a more independent board would ever really swallow, because Cerebrus doesn't have to answer to impatient stockholders.

I do agree about the fact that the American style of corporate management tends to be a bit short-sighted.

It does tend to be able to change though, and that can sometimes be just as important as having a long vision.

[Extra Stout]

You forget that Chrysler has some very deep pockets backing it. It is not publicly traded anymore, and that has some definite advantages when it comes to restructuring. I wouldn't be so quick to write them off.
The purpose of Cerberus' acquiring Chrysler was to let it go bankrupt and sell off the parts. It's a pure "strip & flip."

[clambake]

The purpose of Cerberus' acquiring Chrysler was to let it go bankrupt and sell off the parts. It's a pure "strip & flip."

agreed. MB's willingness to run made the eventual outcome easier to predict.

you don't take a lose like that unless the patient is terminal.

[RandomGuy]

The purpose of Cerberus' acquiring Chrysler was to let it go bankrupt and sell off the parts. It's a pure "strip & flip."

I don't think so. I remember hearing some stuff on this in NPR's marketplace when it was happening, and if my memory was correct, the intent was to shake it down, and take it public again.

I would have to go back and research that to be sure, though.

[Extra Stout]

I don't think so. I remember hearing some stuff on this in NPR's marketplace when it was happening, and if my memory was correct, the intent was to shake it down, and take it public again.

I would have to go back and research that to be sure, though.
As if they'd be honest. "Yeah, we're just here to kill the company. Its assets sold in pieces are worth more than the business itself. Everyone is going to lose their job. Don't you feel motivated?"

[RandomGuy]

As if they'd be honest. "Yeah, we're just here to kill the company. Its assets sold in pieces are worth more than the business itself. Everyone is going to lose their job. Don't you feel motivated?"

The easy way to settle this is to wait.

Either they chop it up and sell it in peices, as you theorize, or they don't and take it back public.

Want to make a friendly wager of a six-pack on it?

[RandomGuy]

They may indeed not be telling the whole truth, but big secrets like that don't stay secret long, and there is no credible whistleblower (or any whistleblower for that matter) that has come forward saying that the company will be chopped.

[RandomGuy]

Life is not being kind to GM:

GM drops to 53-year low, Goldman urges "sell" (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080626/bs_nm/autos_dc)


DETROIT (Reuters) - Shares of General Motors Corp hit their lowest level since 1955 and dragged down the auto sector on Thursday after Goldman Sachs cut the struggling U.S. industry's largest manufacturer to a "sell" rating and warned it would have to raise capital.

While GM stock fell 12 percent to a session low of $11.21, shares of No. 2 U.S. automaker Ford Motor Co (F.N), which had its price target cut by Goldman, dropped almost 5 percent. Shares of auto parts supplier Lear Corp (LEA.N), downgraded to a "sell" rating by the brokerage, fell by almost 19 percent.

With the Thursday price fall, GM's market cap fell to less than $6.5 billion. The company has the smallest market cap in the Dow Jones industrial average (.DJI), of which it has been a component since 1925.

Talk about a kick in the nuts...

The Dow Jones Industrial average is down about 200 points on this and other data today.

Yikes.