Hakeem or Duncan who would you rather have?

[DaDakota]

Both all time players, both in consideration for the best ever at their position.

Which player would you want on your team if they were in their prime?

Me? Obviously Dream, because he dominated both ends of the court.

What about you, and why?

DD

[Indazone]

Both all time players, both in consideration for the best ever at their position.

Which player would you want on your team if they were in their prime?

Me? Obviously Dream, because he dominated both ends of the court.

What about you, and why?

DD

Oh c'mon you post this on a Spurs board. I can already tell you what the result will be.

[balli]

Hakeem, becaue he didn't cry like a millionaires two year old daughter when things didn't go his way. He was also a slightly better defender and passer.

[stretch]

Duncan. He is the ultimate team player, and gives you everything you want out of a big man... scoring, rebounding, shot-blocking, passing, defense... Dream was more skilled, and arguably the most skilled big-man ever, but Duncan is the greatest leader among big-men ever, and I think leadership and mental toughness is extremely important, more so than skills. IMO, Tim Duncan is one of the three most mentally strong leaders in NBA history (Jordan and Bird being the others).

Keep in mind Hakeem only won his titles when the dominant team (in other words, Jordan) was gone. Duncan won titles despite dealing with the dominance of Shaq and Kobe. Duncan has fine stats, and loads of accomplishments to back everything up too.

[DaDakota]

It is a Spurs board but I think people can still be objective.....at least I hope.

DD

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

In his prime, I'd take Hakeem. When he was healthy he was almost as athletic as David Robinson with a game almost as polished as Duncan's. It's a narrow margin, but that's the pick I'd make.

[DaDakota]

In his prime, I'd take Hakeem. When he was healthy he was almost as athletic as David Robinson with a game almost as polished as Duncan's. It's a narrow margin, but that's the pick I'd make.

I hope everyone understands that the topic is in NO way disrespecting either player.

I would be happy to have either one on my favorite team.

Just wanted to have people have a think about it.

DD

[stretch]

However, I will say this... one on one, you will have an easier time stopping Duncan than you will with Shaq or Hakeem. But if you focus your defense mainly to stop these guys, Duncan will give you more problems, because of his versatility, team leadership, and smarts. But fact is, its very rare to stop any of these guys one-on-one on a consistent basis, and you will have to throw multiple looks at them and base a lot of your defensive scheme to stop them.

[monosylab1k]

It is a Spurs board but I think people can still be objective.....at least I hope.

DD

:lmao define your use of "objective" because I think that in your mind, the only way to be "objective" is to be in agreement with you.

Duncan > Hakeem. Hey, Denial is not just a river in Africa.

[DaDakota]

Best Hakeem video ever.

EvWVdF0HKTg&

And Mono, if you think Duncan is better, great......just an opinion.

The reason I asked was to hear what people thought.

Just watch that video, he was so skilled.....incredible athlete.

DD

[Extra Stout]

My answer depends upon whether we're talking about one year, or the player's entire prime.

[DaDakota]

My answer depends upon whether we're talking about one year, or the player's entire prime.

Take their entire prime if you like. Both are amazing, but if you watch that video, man, Hakeem was so special so quick for a player his size...and so skilled.

Has Duncan ever torched a league MVP like Hakeem did to Robinson...

DD

[Findog]

Isn't Hakeem like 45 now? I'd rather have Duncan.

[stretch]

Take their entire prime if you like. Both are amazing, but if you watch that video, man, Hakeem was so special so quick for a player his size...and so skilled.

Has Duncan ever torched a league MVP like Hakeem did to Robinson...

DD

4>2

I think that matters more.

Plus I think Robinson is a bit on the overrated side in terms of his defense. He was a fantastic blocker, but he was not as good of a defender as Duncan by any means.

[mavs>spurs2]

In my opinion Hakeem in his prime was 2nd all time only to Jordan. The way he dominated both sides of the ball was absolutely amazing and has never been duplicated, at least not to the extent he did.

[monosylab1k]

4>2

I think that matters more.

Plus, that 2 could very easily have been a zero. Thankfully for Hakeem & the Rockets, Michael Jordan had a gambling problem.

[DaDakota]

Plus, that 2 could very easily have been a zero. Thankfully for Hakeem & the Rockets, Michael Jordan had a gambling problem.
A pure canard, MJ played in the 2nd year and got eliminated by Orlando, the Bulls were short a power forward/rebounder, which they rectified by bringing in Rodman the next year.

No asterisks in any championship, not the Spurs in the strike year, nor the Rockets in their one Jordan less year. The Rockets owned the Bulls during Dream's career....

DD

[monosylab1k]

A pure canard, MJ played in the 2nd year and got eliminated by Orlando, the Bulls were short a power forward/rebounder, which they rectified by bringing in Rodman the next year.

Oh yeah that year, because we all know Jordan wouldn't be rusty after close to 2 years off.

http://assets.espn.go.com/i/magazine/new/michael_jordan_45.jpg

you fail.

[JamStone]

I personally think it's a toss up. Obviously, two of the greatest big men of all time. Hakeem was one of my favorite players when I was growing up. He is the more prolific scorer and the more dominant defensive player. On the other hand, you cannot deny the team success that has followed Tim Duncan.

For me personally, I'd probably go with Hakeem if we're talking about individual players. But, it's by the slimmest of margins.

[balli]

Oh yeah that year, because we all know Jordan wouldn't be rusty after close to 2 years off.

:rolleyes

And a minicamp, pre-season, many many practices, 82 regular season games and 2 playoffs series.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Good basketball thread man. You cant win with these pathetic Spurs fans. They just want someone to come on here and tell you how classy thay are and how good their players are.

Hey you pathetic piece of shit, do you realize that the only reason you're still posting here is because a Spurs fan allows it, and the reason they allow it is because they are looking for exactly the opposite of how you portray Spurs fans?

[monosylab1k]

:rolleyes

And a minicamp, pre-season, many many practices, 82 regular season games and 2 playoffs series.

take off minicamp, pre-season, and 65 of those regular season games and then your post isn't complete trash.

[stretch]

Oh yeah that year, because we all know Jordan wouldn't be rusty after close to 2 years off.

http://assets.espn.go.com/i/magazine/new/michael_jordan_45.jpg

you fail.

even Penny Hardway said it clearly was not the same Jordan as before.

[robbie380]

Plus, that 2 could very easily have been a zero. Thankfully for Hakeem & the Rockets, Michael Jordan had a gambling problem.

those 2 could have been more if his '86 team didn't fall apart around him. it's too bad modern surgical techniques didn't exist back then for sampson. it's even more of a tragedy that the team lost lucas, lloyd, and wiggins to coke. i think that is the one thing that really irks me when people talk about hakeem and only talk about his "prime". it's like they completely forget that he led a team that beat down the showtime lakers in 5 games in '86 and took the 86' celtics, the 2nd or 3rd best team ever, to 6 games. they always forget dream got to the finals way before jordan ever did and it's all because of team.

duncan has really had a luxury having good players around him pretty much his whole career. i'm not taking anything away from duncan at all but it is a testament to basketball being a team game and you need talent around you to win.

also to the argument of who is better...awhile back someone put forth this question and i made a spreadsheet comparing dream's and duncan's careers up to this point and for what it's worth dream led in every statistical category. i think it's on my computer at home. i'll post the numbers later.

[ChumpDumper]

If he always played the way he did in the championship years, Hakeem.

For overall performance over the player's career, Duncan.

[Brutalis]

I had to vote Hakeem. I feel really bad however.

It's just I watched Hakeem own David throughout his career, as well as pretty much every center out there including Shaq. The guy was just smooth and had the skill set of a master chess player on the court.

Duncan is right there though, I mean right right there. Just give it to Hakeem cause Duncan is not through yet.

[Indazone]

this thread is running 2:1 in favor of Duncan. C'mon DD I told you I could have predicted the outcome of your poll on a Spurs board!!:lol

[robbie380]

If he always played the way he did in the championship years, Hakeem.

For overall performance over the player's career, Duncan.

again...you do know akeem made it to the finals in '86 and his team went thru the showtime lakers in 5? you do know he lost basically that entire team in 2 years to injuries and drugs? yes hakeem developed a more dominant offensive game in the championship years but it's like people only think the guy was a dominant force for 2 years...i will never understand it.

it truly is amazing how the team around a player influences people's opinions of whatever player that may be. if that 80's team was able to stay together then hakeem is regarded as one of the greatest players ever but they didn't so he gets knocked down a few rungs.

[dallaskd]

Best Hakeem video ever.

EvWVdF0HKTg&

And Mono, if you think Duncan is better, great......just an opinion.

The reason I asked was to hear what people thought.

Just watch that video, he was so skilled.....incredible athlete.

DD

nice. whats the second song in that video?


Hakeem.

[Indazone]

You post this poll on a Rockets board and you would get the reverse numbers lol.

[ChumpDumper]

again...you do know akeem made it to the finals in '86 and his team went thru the showtime lakers in 5? you do know he lost basically that entire team in 2 years to injuries and drugs? yes hakeem developed a more dominant offensive game in the championship years but it's like people only think the guy was a dominant force for 2 years...i will never understand it.Oh he was dominant for several years. He was superlative those two seasons though.


it truly is amazing how the team around a player influences people's opinions of whatever player that may be. if that 80's team was able to stay together then hakeem is regarded as one of the greatest players ever but they didn't so he gets knocked down a few rungs.It is truly amazing how much fans of other teams get so severely butthurt by my opinions.

[balli]

nice. whats the second song in that video?


Kanye and Jay-Z: Never Let Me Down

9sHpHQTuZC4

[endrity]

I am with Chump on this one. Based on his prime, Hakeem is maybe the best big man (center of pf) of all time. That prime of his though, didn't last long. Tim has been so good for so long now, even though he has slipped a bit in the reg season, you know what you are getting once the playoffs roll around. Hakeem was still great, but nothing close to what he was those two years. You can say it's because of Jordan that he didn't win again, but never made it to the Finals again eventhough that Rockets team was still relatively competitive.

For him longevity, I say Duncan.

[Girasuck]

I'm taking Hakeem because Duncan isn't a PF. Duncan plays the center position and he's not a better center than Hakeem was, therefore I'm taking Hakeem.

LMAO at anyone thinking Duncan plays a power forward.

[balli]

LMAO at anyone thinking Duncan plays a power forward.

If any Spurs fans see this get ready for war dude. I agree 100%, but I've already been down that path and it was a lost cause. Good luck, you're going to need it.

[Anti.Hero]

I don't care who is better. Duncan is who you build a dynasty around. He is the ultimate team player. It's as simple as that to me.

[MONTENEGRINO]

If I have to play streetball, of course Hakeem. Otherwise, TD.
They both are on my fav team ever...;)

[manufor3]

Wow, talk about homer. If you combine the skills of Duncan, Robinson, and the Ice man.... you may come close to what Hakeem was.

wow what a gaywad

[robbie380]

It is truly amazing how much fans of other teams get so severely butthurt by my opinions.

yeah i was going to change the wording so it didn't sound bitchy but i got lazy:lol

[bobbyjoe]

Duncan. He is the ultimate team player, and gives you everything you want out of a big man... scoring, rebounding, shot-blocking, passing, defense... Dream was more skilled, and arguably the most skilled big-man ever, but Duncan is the greatest leader among big-men ever, and I think leadership and mental toughness is extremely important, more so than skills. IMO, Tim Duncan is one of the three most mentally strong leaders in NBA history (Jordan and Bird being the others).

Keep in mind Hakeem only won his titles when the dominant team (in other words, Jordan) was gone. Duncan won titles despite dealing with the dominance of Shaq and Kobe. Duncan has fine stats, and loads of accomplishments to back everything up too.

Except that Hakeem shot better from the field and FT line than Duncan (and in an era of much better big man competition), defended better, and rebounded better...

Duncan's Spurs were 1-3 against Shaq-Kobe-Phil btw. Destroyed in 2001 and 2002 and then blew a 2-0 lead in 2004.

The reason it's hard to argue Duncan over Hakeem is that Hakeem did everything Duncan did but better. Nice bank shot? I raise you an unstoppable turnaround baseline jumper from 15 feet that was much more accurate and indefensible than any move Duncan had.

Great interior D by Duncan? Hakeem raises you multiple DPOY awards, all time shot block title, and the only big man ever to rank in the top 10 of steals all time.

Duncan's great rebounding? hakeem raises to 3 rebounding titles in his career.


Ranking the top big men of the past 20 years:

Shaq
Hakeem
Duncan

The Field...

[kingmalaki]

I am trying to be as objective as possible...I really am. But the "Duncan is the better teammate/leader" quotes are killing me. How good was Duncan this series when another one of the Big 3 (Manu) was playing on a bad wheel? The Spurs just lost this series because they couldn't produce enough offense, all while Duncan is shooting in the low 40's against a frontline of Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom. Ponder on that one....Gasol and Odom.

Duncan is great and IMO the best PF ever to play. I am not hating on him for being on very good teams his entire career because that's just how it is sometimes (see Bird, Magic and Shaq). But you guys throw the titles out there, and completely disregard the difference in surrounding talent. How can you do that, especially in this season? This season, with Kobe, is a prefect example. Kobe didn't suddenly morph into the best wing in the game...he just got help...and you need help to win. Yeah, Duncan won 1 title with a subpar squad in 02/03. So did Hakeem in 93/94. Yeah, Duncan has 4 rings....but honestly which one of those title teams would not have won a ring with Hakeem there, instead of Duncan.

Hakeem has clearly shown that he can have team success as long as he has a decent supporting cast. He beat the 80's Lakers to get to the Finals in his 2nd season, and lost to a contender for the GOAT team (86 Celtics). It's not his fault that his team fell apart and management sucked ass in getting him help until the early 90's.

The difference between Tim and Hakeem is pure, insane explosive athleticism. It's what seperates most of the great ones from those in GOAT contention. Hakeem was like Howard with skills. Duncan is just as fundamentally sound as Hakeem, but he doesn't have his raw athletic ability...or the sheer power that Shaq did. That's why you can have postseason series where he is being checked by the likes of Gasol, Horry, Wallace, etc. You could not throw those weak ass defenders on Hakeem....he would torch them.

In 2001, LA was checking Duncan with an old Horace Grant and Horry. Duncan shot 48% that series and scored 24 combined points in the last 2 games, as SA got swept.

In 2002 he was being checked by Horry and he shot 42% as SA lost in 5.

In 2004 he was being checked by an old Karla Malone and only shot 47% as they lost in 6...scoring 21 a game.

Sorry, but Hakeem would mop all of those dudes. Y'all say Duncan doesn't score big because he doesn't have to. I agree that he doesn't always have to (hence his solid supporting casts, hence his 4 titles), but I don't think he can if he needed to. He surely needed to this series and he didn't. I can't say it enough....y'all lost because you couldn't score enough points...and Duncan is matched up with freaking Gasol and Odom. If he shoots 50% this is a series.

Duncan is as fundamentally sound as they come, but I don't think you can dump him on a team in the postseason and say "Tim, we need you to kill this guy and get 30-35 a night on a very high %", because he doesn't have that insane athleticism like Shaq and Hakeem did. You could do that with those players...and considering that Hakeem was just as good fundamentally and clearly a better defender, he gets the nod. Again, I know Tim has 4 rings but I don't see Hakeem losing on either one of those squads. I try to compare the players and their skills...and not necessarily titles when they are in different eras.

[Bob Lanier]

I'm taking Hakeem because Duncan isn't a PF.
This is true.

On the other hand, Olajuwon isn't a center in the classical sense. He's more of a power forward than Duncan is a center, really.

Two of my five favorite players of my lifetime watching basketball, along with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Charles Barkley, and Dennis Rodman. Duncan is very good, and is even underrated in some regards - his defense is truly special, in ways that flashier shot-swatters failed to be. But Olajuwon's was better. And Olajuwon is better. A more prolific scorer, and slightly more efficiently; equally as good a rebounder. He was less effective a passer, even though he was also the focal point of opposing defenses in ways Tim Duncan rarely, if ever has been; but on the other hand he was dominant in that way - and Duncan is not. Whereas Duncan picks apart double-teams with intelligence and finesse, Olajuwon would plough through them with strength and speed and demand a third man - and usually score anyway, or if not create space for his teammates to go by themselves.

I will say this - Hakeem Olajuwon would not allow Kobe Bryant or Jason Terry to abuse him on the high screen-and-roll. And that amounts to the difference between the two.

[kingmalaki]

This is true.

On the other hand, Olajuwon isn't a center in the classical sense. He's more of a power forward than Duncan is a center, really.

Two of my five favorite players of my lifetime watching basketball, along with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Charles Barkley, and Dennis Rodman. Duncan is very good, and is even underrated in some regards - his defense is truly special, in ways that flashier shot-swatters failed to be. But Olajuwon's was better. And Olajuwon is better. A more prolific scorer, and slightly more efficiently; equally as good a rebounder. He was less effective a passer, even though he was also the focal point of opposing defenses in ways Tim Duncan rarely, if ever has been; but on the other hand he was dominant in that way - and Duncan is not. Whereas Duncan picks apart double-teams with intelligence and finesse, Olajuwon would plough through them with strength and speed and demand a third man - and usually score anyway, or if not create space for his teammates to go by themselves.

I will say this - Hakeem Olajuwon would not allow Kobe Bryant or Jason Terry to abuse him on the high screen-and-roll. And that amounts to the difference between the two.

Good post. I do think Duncan is a better passer than Hakeem was. i just think it's funny how better a passer one can be when they are playing with dudes who can hit shots. This isn't so say Duncan wasn't a good passer (and I think he was better)....just saying folks say Hakeem suddenly became a good passer when he was passing to folks like Smith or Horry, as opposed to dudes like Buck Johnson. Similar to how much more willing Kobe is to pass this season when it's not Smush Parker or Kwame on the receiving end.

[TDMVPDPOY]

give me hakeem, duncan tends to detour alot with his outlet passes, i would to see him force more shots.

i got a feeling kobe bryant could surpass him and snaq oatmeal on the all time list

[21_Blessings]

Hakeem, easily. The Dream had to play during Showtime's and then Jordan's era. Give Hakeem the Spurs roster in the 00's and he probably 3peats while Tim shoots 42% with pau gasol guarding him. It's not even close really. Anyone with a brain would take Hakeem over duncan.

[GaryJohnston]

are you kidding. Its not even close............Duncan

[GaryJohnston]

Hakeem, becaue he didn't cry like a millionaires two year old daughter when things didn't go his way. He was also a slightly better defender and passer.

That or because Duncan kicked Malone's and now Boozers ass and you are bitter?

My guess is that you are bitter.

[ambchang]

Except that Hakeem shot better from the field and FT line than Duncan (and in an era of much better big man competition), defended better, and rebounded better...

Duncan's Spurs were 1-3 against Shaq-Kobe-Phil btw. Destroyed in 2001 and 2002 and then blew a 2-0 lead in 2004.

The reason it's hard to argue Duncan over Hakeem is that Hakeem did everything Duncan did but better. Nice bank shot? I raise you an unstoppable turnaround baseline jumper from 15 feet that was much more accurate and indefensible than any move Duncan had.

Great interior D by Duncan? Hakeem raises you multiple DPOY awards, all time shot block title, and the only big man ever to rank in the top 10 of steals all time.

Duncan's great rebounding? hakeem raises to 3 rebounding titles in his career.


Ranking the top big men of the past 20 years:

Shaq
Hakeem
Duncan

The Field...

Hakeem destroyed Shaq in all the fields you used to prove Hakeem > Duncan, so why is Shaq > Hakeem?

[kingmalaki]

Hakeem destroyed Shaq in all the fields you used to prove Hakeem > Duncan, so why is Shaq > Hakeem?

Some like to put Shaq ahead of Hakeem, mainly based on the "team success" that Duncan fans rely on so much. Similar to the Duncan comparison, they completely forget that Shaq's 3 guards (Penny, Kobe, Wade) are better than any other wing Hakeem played with for 3/4 of his career.

But at least Shaq has some advantage over Hakeem in that he was a more dynamic and efficient scorer. Personally, I would still rather have Hakeem because he can close games and because of his defense.

[ambchang]

Some like to put Shaq ahead of Hakeem, mainly based on the "team success" that Duncan fans rely on so much. Similar to the Duncan comparison, they completely forget that Shaq's 3 guards (Penny, Kobe, Wade) are better than any other wing Hakeem played with for 3/4 of his career.

But at least Shaq has some advantage over Hakeem in that he was a more dynamic and efficient scorer. Personally, I would still rather have Hakeem because he can close games and because of his defense.

So essentially, Hakeem > Duncan because of statistics, Shaq > Hakeem because titles, but Duncan < Hakeem despite of titles.

In other words, whichever field Duncan has an advantage on in comparing against other greats should be thrown out the window in favour or a metric that Duncan is at a disadvantage?

BTW, Shaq was NOT a more dynamic nor efficient scorer than Hakeem, whatever that means. If you want to go by FG%, James Donaldson and Artis Gilmore is more dynamic and efficient than Hakeem then, those means very little. Hakeem has more low post moves, and can open up the lanes AND the 3 pt line for his teammates (so can Duncan), Shaq can't.

[ambchang]

BTW, you guys act like Hakeem could read defenses in his younger days as well as he could in his older days. He couldn't, even when they went to the finals in 86. Ralph Sampson was the big man facilitator who sees the floor well. Hakeem didn't become a good offensive coordinator until early/mid 90's.

At the same time, Duncan was turnover prone his first few years as well, but he was far and away much better than Hakeem in his youth.

And Rockets in 94 was NOT a weak team, Otis Thorpe was an all-star cailber PF, Kenny Smith and Vernon Maxwell were shooting lights out. Horry, Elie and alien was clutch. It was a very well constructed team who revolutionized the use of the 3pt line as a weapon by using Hakeem as a decoy in the middle.

[balli]

That or because Duncan kicked Malone's and now Boozers ass and you are bitter?

My guess is that you are bitter.

You can suck a fucking dick. I gave my opinion, no need for you to go on the attack about Malone and Carlos fucking Boozer, because of it. In the future, don't be such a lame little pussy.

[jack sommerset]

The dream by a nose.

[balli]

No he isn't. However, if you really think that, you are an idiot who doesn't know shit about NBA ball.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

I remember watch Hakeem in playoffs in past years. Duncan is not same class as him in any part of game. Duncan is great player everyone know this. he is one of best players in his time in NBA and one of the best PF of NBA probable best PF of NBA in all history.

But Hakeem was much better player than Duncan is. I see such vote here just because Spurs fans. I am Spurs fan but this is still crazy. How true fan who know game really believe Duncan better than Hakeem? This is joke yes?

[kingmalaki]

So essentially, Hakeem > Duncan because of statistics, Shaq > Hakeem because titles, but Duncan < Hakeem despite of titles.

In other words, whichever field Duncan has an advantage on in comparing against other greats should be thrown out the window in favour or a metric that Duncan is at a disadvantage?

BTW, Shaq was NOT a more dynamic nor efficient scorer than Hakeem, whatever that means. If you want to go by FG%, James Donaldson and Artis Gilmore is more dynamic and efficient than Hakeem then, those means very little. Hakeem has more low post moves, and can open up the lanes AND the 3 pt line for his teammates (so can Duncan), Shaq can't.

Reread my post. Similar to Duncan, some (i.e. not me) put Shaq > Hakeem because he has 4 titles compared to 2. Similar to Duncan, folks rarely mention or consider the fact that Shaq (and Duncan) have always been surrounding with quality teams while Hakeem played a good chunk of his career surrounded by crap. The same can be said for other great centers of Hakeem's era (David Robinson and Ewing). When comparing dudes I generally don't like to use titles, unless both players went head up in the postseason when they both had teams capable of winning it all (i.e. Mj vs Drexler in Finals, Hakeem vs Robinson, Ewing or Shaq in postseason).

As much as it pains me to say it, Shaq was a more dynamic scorer than Hakeem. His career avg is 25 a game and he has never shot less that 56% from the field. He was a better scorer, and more efficient. You mention Donaldson and Gilmore...but neither one could drop 30 a night on 58% with 2-3 dudes hanging on them...much less on a title team. Yeah, Hakeem has every move in the book....but he still couldn't put the ball in the hole at the rate that Shaq could. Now IMO, I would rather have Hakeem offensively because he was not a late game liability like Shaq was. You could give him the ball in the closing seconds. And since it's clear that Hakeem was a better defender, I would rather have Hakeem. But I can see the reason why some would prefer Shaq.

Duncan, on the other hand, is not better than Hakeem was on either side of the ball. The only skillset I give Duncan an advantage on is passing. But sorry, I can't see Duncan carrying the 94/95 Rockets past Ewing, Robinson & Shaq by dropping 30 a night on them. I can't see Duncan scoring at the high efficiency level that Shaq did during his peak. We can assume all day long about both sides of the argument, but in the situations where Duncan has had to dominate offensively he hasn't been able to do it. Again, there is no way they you coulda put a frontline of Gasol/Odom or Horry/Grant on Hakeem or Shaq and not get killed.

My breakdown:

Offense - Shaq > Hakeem > Duncan
I have already stated why I would rather have Hakeem here

Defense - Hakeem > Duncan > Shaq

[DazedAndConfused]

The only player I've ever seen who has completely owned and shutdown Shaq was Hakeem. He is hands down the better player than Duncan, and IMHO the #2 or #3 greatest C of all time behind Kareem/Wilt.

[The Franchise]

However, I will say this... one on one, you will have an easier time stopping Duncan than you will with Shaq or Hakeem. But if you focus your defense mainly to stop these guys, Duncan will give you more problems, because of his versatility, team leadership, and smarts. But fact is, its very rare to stop any of these guys one-on-one on a consistent basis, and you will have to throw multiple looks at them and base a lot of your defensive scheme to stop them. Name one thing Duncan can do better than Hakeem. Versatility, leadership, and smarts? Put Hakeem with Timmys team and you would be in the Finals right now. Hakeem was a better scorer, passer, shot blocker, rebounder, and ballhandler. I think Timmy is great but Hakeem was better.

[Extra Stout]

Take their entire prime if you like. Both are amazing, but if you watch that video, man, Hakeem was so special so quick for a player his size...and so skilled.

Has Duncan ever torched a league MVP like Hakeem did to Robinson...

DD
If we're taking the entire prime, I pick Duncan. Hakeem's absolute peak in the two championship years was higher than Duncan's, but Dream was kind of a malcontent in the late '80s and early '90s leading up to that.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

If we're taking the entire prime, I pick Duncan. Hakeem's absolute peak in the two championship years was higher than Duncan's, but Dream was kind of a malcontent in the late '80s and early '90s leading up to that.

I not understand these argument about "player prime"? Explain me what everyone here mean. To me this mean how good player was when at his best. So how is most people say Duncan is better because he have better prime over people keep say "entire prime" or "all prime"?

Duncan is never as good as Hakeem was. Hakeem was even better than Shaq. How can Duncan be better than Hakeem?

[ElNono]

I not understand these argument about "player prime"? Explain me what everyone here mean. To me this mean how good player was when at his best. So how is most people say Duncan is better because he have better prime over people keep say "entire prime" or "all prime"?

Duncan is never as good as Hakeem was. Hakeem was even better than Shaq. How can Duncan be better than Hakeem?

Maybe because it's all greek to you?

[m33p0]

at his absolute best, hakeem was a beast not even the gods could stop (and maybe score against). if its a winner-take-all, one game knockout match against a team i absolutely know nothing about, i'd go with hakeem.

duncan, on the other hand, is more disciplined in his approach. repitition is the key to duncan's success. and his game is not predicated on jaw-dropping athleticism, duncan can give your team a lot of years of success provided with good supporting cast. duncan also will not cost a season for being ill-tempered, something hakeem was prone to early in his career.

[GuerillaBlack]

Is it really Hakeem's fault that he won his two championships when Jordan was not in the league? It isn't like Jordan was in the Western Conference, so the Rockets would have made it to the Finals anyway. That, and over both of their careers, Hakeem straight up owned Jordan.

[GuerillaBlack]

Some like to put Shaq ahead of Hakeem, mainly based on the "team success" that Duncan fans rely on so much. Similar to the Duncan comparison, they completely forget that Shaq's 3 guards (Penny, Kobe, Wade) are better than any other wing Hakeem played with for 3/4 of his career.

But at least Shaq has some advantage over Hakeem in that he was a more dynamic and efficient scorer. Personally, I would still rather have Hakeem because he can close games and because of his defense.

Really, like when was the last time Shaq drained a three to seal the deal in a NBA Finals ;).

[angelbelow]

this is awfully close for me but im going to have to go with the dream...

[KidCongo]

Dream

[mystargtr34]

The majority of Spurs fans will choose Duncan because they are Spurs fans

The majority of other will choose Hakeem because he had the wow factor.

I think Duncan was better... and isnt there a thread about 500 pages long for this?

[Extra Stout]

I not understand these argument about "player prime"? Explain me what everyone here mean. To me this mean how good player was when at his best. So how is most people say Duncan is better because he have better prime over people keep say "entire prime" or "all prime"?

Duncan is never as good as Hakeem was. Hakeem was even better than Shaq. How can Duncan be better than Hakeem?
Hakeem was at his best for three years. Duncan was at his best for nine years.

[kingmalaki]

Hakeem was at his best for three years. Duncan was at his best for nine years.

Yet isn't it funny that Hakeems numbers for the rest of his years (not counting those 3) are still better than Duncan's for the majority of his career? Duncan has been better at having better teammates, that's about it. I have never seen Hakeem look as bad in a postseason as Duncan did this year. And again, this was against Lamar Odom and Pau Gasol.

[bobbyjoe]

The majority of Spurs fans will choose Duncan because they are Spurs fans

The majority of other will choose Hakeem because he had the wow factor.

I think Duncan was better... and isnt there a thread about 500 pages long for this?

You are right about #1. Spurs fans would even pick David Robinson over Shaq and Hakeem in many cases. They are unbelievably biased and delustional at times because the Spurs are the only game in town.

On #2, the majority of non-Spurs fans choose Hakeem because they think he was better, not because of any "wow" factor.

It's not like Duncan doesnt get his due. Even non-sspurs fans, most rate him as the best PF of all time.

But over Hakeem, Shaq, etc? No way...

You wouldnt see a Hakeem or Shaq shoot in their primes shoot in the low 40's against such stud defenders as Gasol, Odom, and T. Chandler. Just would never ever happen.

Duncan's a cut below Hakeem for most neutral fans...

[DaDakota]

On other sites I frequent not related to the Spurs or Rockets, Dream is winning by about a 4 to 1 margin.

DD

[kskonn]

Take their entire prime if you like. Both are amazing, but if you watch that video, man, Hakeem was so special so quick for a player his size...and so skilled.

Has Duncan ever torched a league MVP like Hakeem did to Robinson...

DD



Karl malone

[kskonn]

Duncan, on the other hand, is not better than Hakeem was on either side of the ball. The only skillset I give Duncan an advantage on is passing. But sorry, I can't see Duncan carrying the 94/95 Rockets past Ewing, Robinson & Shaq by dropping 30 a night on them. I can't see Duncan scoring at the high efficiency level that Shaq did during his peak. We can assume all day long about both sides of the argument, but in the situations where Duncan has had to dominate offensively he hasn't been able to do it. Again, there is no way they you coulda put a frontline of Gasol/Odom or Horry/Grant on Hakeem or Shaq and not get killed.

My breakdown:

Offense - Shaq > Hakeem > Duncan
I have already stated why I would rather have Hakeem here

Defense - Hakeem > Duncan > Shaq


Did not want to go through all the years, but the year that duncan eliminated the shaq Kobe lakers, 2001- he averaged 28 points a game in the entire playoff run. Not quite 30 but pretty damn close. Also 3 blocks per game, 5 assist per game and 15 rebounds per game. I can remember him taking over against the lakers that year and taking it straight at shaq when it mattered the most. I agree with most of your post, but before manu and parker came in to their own Duncan was the go to guy when they needed offense, he had the luxury the last few years to not always have to be that guy.

[kingmalaki]

Did not want to go through all the years, but the year that duncan eliminated the shaq Kobe lakers, 2001- he averaged 28 points a game in the entire playoff run. Not quite 30 but pretty damn close. Also 3 blocks per game, 5 assist per game and 15 rebounds per game. I can remember him taking over against the lakers that year and taking it straight at shaq when it mattered the most. I agree with most of your post, but before manu and parker came in to their own Duncan was the go to guy when they needed offense, he had the luxury the last few years to not always have to be that guy.

Do you think he had that luxury this year? IMO, SA needed him to dominate that matchup and he should have. The Spurs were barely losing games because they couldn't score enough....all while he is being checked by Gasol and Odom.

Duncan was great the one year they eliminated LA (02/03), but what about the 3 times they lost to the Lakers (including this season)? I am not saying it's only Duncan's fault that they lost. I'm saying I think Hakeem and Shaq are dudes you could rely on to dominate a series offensively, and Duncan I'm not so sure about. I'm sorry, but there is just no way either of those two would be held in check by Robert Horry, Sheed, Gasol or Odom.

[mystargtr34]

I dont think the stats argument holds... since Duncan had a higher PER.. adjusted for minutes and pace.... than Hakeem for most his years.

[robbie380]

I dont think the stats argument holds... since Duncan had a higher PER.. adjusted for minutes and pace.... than Hakeem for most his years.

and PER isn't a 100% reliable stat. by the time duncan's career is done he will have a worse PER than barkley. d-rob has the 3rd highest career PER. i don't think anyone will say he was the 3rd best player in the history of the NBA.

[blink]

prime duncan is great and all but the dream wins by a clear margin. watch prime hakeem play a full season and you will see.

i dont know how anyone that has seen hakeem play would pick duncan.

[dbreiden83080]

Duncan but it is awfully close.

It is funny how people rate players all time, because i hear Bird is top 5 all the time yet Duncan and Hakeem both could do more than Bird on both ends of the court. Bird was not a very good defender. Hakeem gets shafted with his all time ranking if you ask me.

[Nahtanoj]

Wash.

[LakeShow]

Hakeem! Better overall player with a better repertoire on offense. Defensively one of the best Centers in the history of the NBA.

[MateoNeygro]

Take their entire prime if you like. Both are amazing, but if you watch that video, man, Hakeem was so special so quick for a player his size...and so skilled.

Has Duncan ever torched a league MVP like Hakeem did to Robinson...

DD

DUNCAN torches NASH and the suns every year, he's knocked SHAQ and KOBE (BOTH MVPs) out of the playoffs, He also whoops up on Dirk so bad they don't have him guard DUNCAN. SO YEAH HE HAS TORCHED MANY MVPs, but don't get me wrong Hakeem was the shit but I still take Duncan's 2 MVPs 3 time FINALS MVP, ALL DEFENSIVE TEAM 10 times, 10 time all-star and most importantly 4 championship rings to HAKEEM's 2 RINGS

[MateoNeygro]

those 2 could have been more if his '86 team didn't fall apart around him. it's too bad modern surgical techniques didn't exist back then for sampson. it's even more of a tragedy that the team lost lucas, lloyd, and wiggins to coke. i think that is the one thing that really irks me when people talk about hakeem and only talk about his "prime". it's like they completely forget that he led a team that beat down the showtime lakers in 5 games in '86 and took the 86' celtics, the 2nd or 3rd best team ever, to 6 games. they always forget dream got to the finals way before jordan ever did and it's all because of team.

duncan has really had a luxury having good players around him pretty much his whole career. i'm not taking anything away from duncan at all but it is a testament to basketball being a team game and you need talent around you to win.

also to the argument of who is better...awhile back someone put forth this question and i made a spreadsheet comparing dream's and duncan's careers up to this point and for what it's worth dream led in every statistical category. i think it's on my computer at home. i'll post the numbers later.

Yeah but all that he did he only one 2 championships with rather good teams right?? Duncan won in 99 with Avery Johnson, an aging David Robinson, Sean Elliott, and Mario Ellie. YEAH THATS A GREAT SUPPORTING CAST HE DOMINATED THE PLAY-OFFS and STATS aren't everything it's about the END RESULT AND THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS DUNCAN=4/ HAKEEM=2 SORRY PAL

[MateoNeygro]

Except that Hakeem shot better from the field and FT line than Duncan (and in an era of much better big man competition), defended better, and rebounded better...

Duncan's Spurs were 1-3 against Shaq-Kobe-Phil btw. Destroyed in 2001 and 2002 and then blew a 2-0 lead in 2004.

The reason it's hard to argue Duncan over Hakeem is that Hakeem did everything Duncan did but better. Nice bank shot? I raise you an unstoppable turnaround baseline jumper from 15 feet that was much more accurate and indefensible than any move Duncan had.

Great interior D by Duncan? Hakeem raises you multiple DPOY awards, all time shot block title, and the only big man ever to rank in the top 10 of steals all time.

Duncan's great rebounding? hakeem raises to 3 rebounding titles in his career.


Ranking the top big men of the past 20 years:

Shaq
Hakeem
Duncan

The Field...

thats rediculous it's backwards it goes as follows........

DUNCAN
HAKEEM
SHAQ is a fat bastard who only wins with strong wing players

[MateoNeygro]

Hakeem, easily. The Dream had to play during Showtime's and then Jordan's era. Give Hakeem the Spurs roster in the 00's and he probably 3peats while Tim shoots 42% with pau gasol guarding him. It's not even close really. Anyone with a brain would take Hakeem over duncan.

I like how every LAKER fan says Olajuwan just because they don't like Duncan

[MateoNeygro]

You can suck a fucking dick. I gave my opinion, no need for you to go on the attack about Malone and Carlos fucking Boozer, because of it. In the future, don't be such a lame little pussy.

HAHA IT MUST SUCK TO BE A UTAH JAZZ FAN, THEY'LL NEVER WIN SHIT OH AND MALONE WAS A FUCKING DOUCHEBAG FILTHY FUCKING PLAYER AND DUNCAN OWNES HIS BITCH ASS

[MateoNeygro]

I remember watch Hakeem in playoffs in past years. Duncan is not same class as him in any part of game. Duncan is great player everyone know this. he is one of best players in his time in NBA and one of the best PF of NBA probable best PF of NBA in all history.

But Hakeem was much better player than Duncan is. I see such vote here just because Spurs fans. I am Spurs fan but this is still crazy. How true fan who know game really believe Duncan better than Hakeem? This is joke yes?


HAHA THATS SOME TERRIBLE GRAMMAR YOU HAVE GOING ON IN THIS POST BIG GUY, YOU SOUND LIKE BORAT

[MateoNeygro]

Reread my post. Similar to Duncan, some (i.e. not me) put Shaq > Hakeem because he has 4 titles compared to 2. Similar to Duncan, folks rarely mention or consider the fact that Shaq (and Duncan) have always been surrounding with quality teams while Hakeem played a good chunk of his career surrounded by crap. The same can be said for other great centers of Hakeem's era (David Robinson and Ewing). When comparing dudes I generally don't like to use titles, unless both players went head up in the postseason when they both had teams capable of winning it all (i.e. Mj vs Drexler in Finals, Hakeem vs Robinson, Ewing or Shaq in postseason).

As much as it pains me to say it, Shaq was a more dynamic scorer than Hakeem. His career avg is 25 a game and he has never shot less that 56% from the field. He was a better scorer, and more efficient. You mention Donaldson and Gilmore...but neither one could drop 30 a night on 58% with 2-3 dudes hanging on them...much less on a title team. Yeah, Hakeem has every move in the book....but he still couldn't put the ball in the hole at the rate that Shaq could. Now IMO, I would rather have Hakeem offensively because he was not a late game liability like Shaq was. You could give him the ball in the closing seconds. And since it's clear that Hakeem was a better defender, I would rather have Hakeem. But I can see the reason why some would prefer Shaq.

Duncan, on the other hand, is not better than Hakeem was on either side of the ball. The only skillset I give Duncan an advantage on is passing. But sorry, I can't see Duncan carrying the 94/95 Rockets past Ewing, Robinson & Shaq by dropping 30 a night on them. I can't see Duncan scoring at the high efficiency level that Shaq did during his peak. We can assume all day long about both sides of the argument, but in the situations where Duncan has had to dominate offensively he hasn't been able to do it. Again, there is no way they you coulda put a frontline of Gasol/Odom or Horry/Grant on Hakeem or Shaq and not get killed.

My breakdown:

Offense - Shaq > Hakeem > Duncan
I have already stated why I would rather have Hakeem here

Defense - Hakeem > Duncan > Shaq

dude quit posting fucking novels man, nobody cares about your opinion enough to read that whole damn thing ass clown

[MateoNeygro]

I not understand these argument about "player prime"? Explain me what everyone here mean. To me this mean how good player was when at his best. So how is most people say Duncan is better because he have better prime over people keep say "entire prime" or "all prime"?

Duncan is never as good as Hakeem was. Hakeem was even better than Shaq. How can Duncan be better than Hakeem?

haha you are killing me man, i can't understand shit you are saying

[MateoNeygro]

Do you think he had that luxury this year? IMO, SA needed him to dominate that matchup and he should have. The Spurs were barely losing games because they couldn't score enough....all while he is being checked by Gasol and Odom.

Duncan was great the one year they eliminated LA (02/03), but what about the 3 times they lost to the Lakers (including this season)? I am not saying it's only Duncan's fault that they lost. I'm saying I think Hakeem and Shaq are dudes you could rely on to dominate a series offensively, and Duncan I'm not so sure about. I'm sorry, but there is just no way either of those two would be held in check by Robert Horry, Sheed, Gasol or Odom.

you are stupid duncan scored like crazy against LA and you act like GASOL and or ODOM guarded Duncan one on one, everytime they doubled him he shot bad cause players could sag off Manu and sit in TIM's LAP if you don't understand the little things in basketball i guess it's easy to say stupid shit like the quoted post above

[cajunspur]

I would take Hakeem. He had a much better overall offensive skill set. He was much better at scoring in bunches and taking over a game than duncan is. Without looking at it, Hakeem was a better foul shooter than Duncan is.

Defensively Hakeem was the better shot blocker, as he was more agile, but Duncan seems like the better rebounder.

Mainly though Hakeem was the go-to guy his whole career and carry teams. Duncan has not always been the go-to guy.

[Bob Lanier]

I would take Hakeem.
Ah, fuck.

[cajunspur]

Ah, fuck.

What?

[GuerillaBlack]

On other sites I frequent not related to the Spurs or Rockets, Dream is winning by about a 4 to 1 margin.

DD

Can you link them?

[Indazone]

Posting a Dream or Duncan poll on Spurs talk :lol

Too many homers here and it'd be an all out Duncan is better. It's being proven out right now 2:1 in favor of Duncan. Reversre poll numbers on a Rockets board. What you need is the poll numbers from a neutral site.

[robbie380]

Yeah but all that he did he only one 2 championships with rather good teams right?? Duncan won in 99 with Avery Johnson, an aging David Robinson, Sean Elliott, and Mario Ellie. YEAH THATS A GREAT SUPPORTING CAST HE DOMINATED THE PLAY-OFFS and STATS aren't everything it's about the END RESULT AND THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS DUNCAN=4/ HAKEEM=2 SORRY PAL

good job completely missing the point of my post. :toast even better job with the 9 posts in a row:lol

anyhow...that 99 team had great chemistry like the rockets 94 team and they were pretty comparable talent-wise to the 94 rockets. also...when did duncan start winning championships after 99? hmmm....was it after he got a team around him? i think so! imagine if you guys had held onto s-jax from that year. :wow

[Leetonidas]

What gets me is Rocket Fan is trying to claim how there are too many homers here.

Uh, hello, it's a fucking Spurs board. Of course Tim Duncan is going to win here and of course Hakeem would win on a Rockets board. Why would you even make the topic if you knew that?

It's a close race really, and based on team success over the last decade, I would pick Tim Duncan. Perhaps Hakeem was more skilled and gifted, but Tim Duncan is so fundamentally sound and has been quietly dominant for so many years. The guy is severely under appreciated in the NBA.

Yes, Hakeem was the best player in the NBA for two years. Tim Duncan has been dominating the modern NBA for 10 years now.

[Spurs da champs]

It's a close race really, and based on team success over the last decade, I would pick Tim Duncan. Perhaps Hakeem was more skilled and gifted, but Tim Duncan is so fundamentally sound and has been quietly dominant for so many years. The guy is severely under appreciated in the NBA.
I agree.

[ManuTim_best of Fwiendz]

Hakeem > Duncan (but it's harder to say as the years go by, because Duncan's got his own greatness coming along)
Hakeem was pretty unique. I 've never seen a big man that quick, despite the young guys. Just think of Hakeem and think of all the traditional young centers we have. No one has been like him since.
He had the craftiness of a guard. And he was a defensive beast who could both block AND had the hands to steal.

Hakeem on his dreamshake
29WpgU0pqN8



But
Rasho >>> BOTH

Rasho keeping the dream alive
imhwjLJUX7s

[DaDakota]

Can you link them?

http://www.jazzfanz.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=30559

Now it is down to 3 to 1...still the point is made.

DD

[mystargtr34]

and PER isn't a 100% reliable stat. by the time duncan's career is done he will have a worse PER than barkley. d-rob has the 3rd highest career PER. i don't think anyone will say he was the 3rd best player in the history of the NBA.

And Hakeem scoring average is about 50th in career history... does that mean hes 50th best offensive player of all time?

Hakeem's Rockets played at a much faster pace than Duncan's Spurs... more shots = more points to get = more rebounds to be had = more asists blocks etc..

Spurs crawling pace for the first half of Duncans career gave his numbers a beating compared to other greats... yet he still put up Hakeem number ... 25.5 - 12.7 - 3.7 - 2.7.

[mystargtr34]

Sorry bout the grammar i sounded like Kill Bill in that last post

[robbie380]

And Hakeem scoring average is about 50th in career history... does that mean hes 50th best offensive player of all time?

Hakeem's Rockets played at a much faster pace than Duncan's Spurs... more shots = more points to get = more rebounds to be had = more asists blocks etc..

Spurs crawling pace for the first half of Duncans career gave his numbers a beating compared to other greats... yet he still put up Hakeem number ... 25.5 - 12.7 - 3.7 - 2.7.

yes, the spurs offense was more plodding than the rockets. also duncan has always had more talent on his teams so you wonder how much his numbers would be altered if he was always the primary offensive option. you have to think his stats would "look" better.


For what they are worth... here are Hakeem's playoff numbers versus Duncan's playoff numbers up to the age of 31 aka this year for Duncan.

Hakeem in 85 games averaged

40.74 mpg
27.04 ppg
12.29 rpg
4.01 Orpg
3.05 apg
3.87 bpg
1.81 spg
3.01 TO/g
53.06% FG%
72.35% FT%

Duncan in 155 games averaged

40.01 mpg
23.39 ppg
12.74 rpg
3.48 Orpg
3.52 apg
2.68 bpg
.7 spg
3.08 TO/g
50.06% FG%
69.08% FT%

[Danny B]

Give me STAT over these floppers any day.

[Leetonidas]

Give me STAT over these floppers any day.

Ah, nevermind. I didn't realize you were a troll. :lol

[DaDakota]

And Hakeem scoring average is about 50th in career history... does that mean hes 50th best offensive player of all time?

Hakeem's Rockets played at a much faster pace than Duncan's Spurs... more shots = more points to get = more rebounds to be had = more asists blocks etc..

Spurs crawling pace for the first half of Duncans career gave his numbers a beating compared to other greats... yet he still put up Hakeem number ... 25.5 - 12.7 - 3.7 - 2.7.


Faster pace? Are you high? The Rockets were a pound it in to Dream and pass it out to the 3 point line team.

They played with about the same pace as the current Spurs do....

Inside/out and tough defense.

Same same.

Dream and Duncan are both great players, but give me the guy who was dominant on BOTH ends of the floor every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

DD

[mystargtr34]

Faster pace? Are you high? The Rockets were a pound it in to Dream and pass it out to the 3 point line team.

They played with about the same pace as the current Spurs do....

Inside/out and tough defense.

Same same.

Dream and Duncan are both great players, but give me the guy who was dominant on BOTH ends of the floor every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

DD

In Hakeems two championship years... the years he put up his best statistics.... his Rockets had a Pace Factor of 95 and 94.2... or about middle of the pack for those seasons.

During Duncan's 99 championship season... The Spurs had a Pace Factor of 88.6

Pace Factor basically = the number of possessions per game

During Duncan's MVP seasons the Spurs had a Pace Factor of 90

And during the 05 championship year the Pace Factor was 88.9

All of these are considerably lower than Hakeems Rockets during his best years statisically.

[lefty]

I would take both of them on my team

Hakeem as a C, and Timmy as the PF.

Scary

[robbie380]

I would take both of them on my team

Hakeem as a C, and Timmy as the PF.

Scary

no joke...how insane would that be?