Minn. mom fights church ban on her autistic son

[mrsmaalox]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080601/ap_on_re_us/church_autistic_child;_ylt=ApUSOs1FTbolJNPpnzbegkW s0NUE


Minn. mom fights church ban on her autistic son By DAVE KOLPACK, Associated Press Writer


BERTHA, Minn. - Carol Race thinks it's important for her 13-year-old son to be in church on Sundays for Catholic Mass.

Leaders of the Church of St. Joseph once felt the same way, but not anymore. They say Race's autistic son Adam is disruptive and his erratic behavior threatens the safety of other parishioners.

The northern Minnesota church has obtained a restraining order to keep Adam away, an action that has been deeply hurtful to the Race family and has brought them support from parents of other autistic children.

"My son is not dangerous," Carol Race said. The church's action is "about a certain community's fears of him. Fears of danger versus actual danger," she said.

In court papers, church leaders say the danger is real. The Rev. Daniel Walz wrote in his petition for the restraining order that Adam — who already is more than 6 feet tall and weighs more than 225 pounds — has hit a child, has nearly knocked over elderly parishioners while bolting from his pew, has spit at people and has urinated in the church.

"His behavior at Mass is extremely disruptive and dangerous," wrote Walz. "Adam is 13 and growing, so his behaviors grow increasingly difficult for his parents to manage."

Carol Race said Walz's claims are exaggerated.
"He's never actually injured anyone," she said. "He's never knocked down anyone. He's never urinated on anyone or spit on anyone."

Carol Race was cited for attending church May 11 in violation of the restraining order, and faces a hearing Monday. She says she can't afford a lawyer and will defend herself in court. A lay mediator is scheduled to meet with her and church board members on Wednesday.

Autism is a developmental disorder that affects a person's ability to communicate and interact with others. It is more severe in some people than others. Adam has limited verbal skills.

Walz did not return calls seeking comment, but Jane Marrin, who works for the Diocese of St. Cloud and is acting as a spokeswoman for the parish, said the church board tried working with the Races to find "reasonable accommodations." That included offering a video feed of Mass that could be watched in the church basement.

The family refused all suggestions, she said.
"It's a difficult issue," Marrin said. "There are no easy answers."
Carol Race dismissed the church's suggestion that Adam watch a video feed in the church basement, saying that "does not have the same status as attending Mass. Otherwise we could all just sit home and watch it on TV and not bother to come in."

"It's considered a sin in the Catholic church not to attend Mass on Sundays and every holy day of obligation," she said. "And that's what this is about. I'm just trying to fulfill my obligations."

Adam is one of five children. The family's home in nearby Eagle Bend has separate study rooms so the other children can read books and use crayons that Adam could otherwise destroy.
Carol said Adam has two favorite spots in the house, the prayer room and the kitchen table. "He likes to eat," she said, laughing.
Adam is prone to anxiety attacks. Carol said some of those outbursts force members of the family to sit on him to calm him down, or restrain his hands and feet with a strip of felt.

In his court petition, Walz said that after one service Adam got into another family's car, started it and revved up the engine while there were people in front of the vehicle.

"Adam's continued presence on parish grounds not only endangers the parishioners, it is disruptive to the devout celebration of the Eucharist," Walz wrote. "I have repeatedly asked John and Carol to keep Adam from church; they have refused to do so.
"In fact, Carol told our parish council that she would have to be dragged from church in handcuffs if I tried to keep Adam from attending Mass," he wrote.

The Races have received support from other parents, including Chris and Libby Rupp, who brought their autistic daughter from St. Paul on Memorial Day weekend and sat in the church's back pew normally occupied by the Races.
"I think this case is mostly about not understanding autism," Libby Rupp said. "I wanted to show them another example. Ultimately, we just need more people to truly understand autism."
Rupp met the Races and said she could see why some people might be uncomfortable around Adam, but she added: "Never at one point did I feel that anyone was in danger."

[MoSpur]

That's crazy. I hope she doesn't lose faith in God because of the way those people are acting. Always keep your eyes on God, not man.

[BacktoBasics]

Dude sounds huge and retards are abnormally strong. Recipe for disaster?

[clambake]

religion is a business.

"We reserve the right to withhold everything that is holy and spread fear when politically necessary".

[Don Quixote]

Hmmm. Hard to not have sympathy for this family. Caring for their autistic kid obviously takes up a ton of time and energy.

On the other hand, I can see why the church can't have this kid running around during services.

Perhaps there is some other way?

[clambake]

Hmmm. Hard to not have sympathy for this family. Caring for their autistic kid obviously takes up a ton of time and energy.

On the other hand, I can see why the church can't have this kid running around during services.

Perhaps there is some other way?

they got a restraining order, dipshit.

[Blake]

I guess there's only one Catholic church in Bertha, Minnesota?

This mom sounds like a real piece of work. The church says he peed in the church......mom says he didn't.......I tend to believe the party holding the restraining order.

[Blake]

they got a restraining order, dipshit.

wow.

[desflood]

You can plead "misunderstood" all you want, but if your gigantic autistic kid is endangering other parishoners (whether you want to believe that or not), you have a moral duty to keep safety your main concern.

[mrsmaalox]

I thought this story was sad because this woman must be about stretched to her limit caring for a child like this. And it's probably her faith in God that has gotten her this far. This may just be the thing that pushes her into the deep end. And then the one who suffers the most will be the kid.

[Don Quixote]

I'm not sure this is really a church issue. If these were political events, or PTA meetings, or Boy Scouts, I'm sure the organizers would say the same thing -- madam, we're afraid we're going to have to ask you to leave. Your son is being disruptive. Etc.

But this woman is committed to her faith. Good for her. But are there not ways for her to worship and have the Mass without bringing this autistic kid into it?

[Don Quixote]

I thought this story was sad because this woman must be about stretched to her limit caring for a child like this. And it's probably her faith in God that has gotten her this far. This may just be the thing that pushes her into the deep end. And then the one who suffers the most will be the kid.

Excellent observation! Yes, I know quite a few parents of autistic and otherwise disabled kids who have made it precisely because of their faith. I'm not sure that the poor decision of a church would necessarily "push her over the edge," but it's possible. On the other hand, can not the church be both compassionate toward the family and committed to a safe and worshipful experience in church?

[ShoogarBear]

This is actually pretty simple.

If the kid is really 225 lbs and knocking people over and urinating in the church, then sorry but Mom is being irresponsible.

And my bias is, I don't know why a church would make that up.

[angel_luv]

Hmmm. Hard to not have sympathy for this family. Caring for their autistic kid obviously takes up a ton of time and energy.

On the other hand, I can see why the church can't have this kid running around during services.

Perhaps there is some other way?

They could maybe set aside an area where the kid could be taken if he is getting ansy but somewhere he could still see the service from- like the rooms many churches set aside for mothers to nurse their babies.

This kid does sound like an awful lot to handle so I understand the church's concern.
They have to look out for everyone's safety.

[Spurminator]

Wonder what Tim Duncan thinks of this...

[angel_luv]

And another option, a pastor or someone from the church could meet with the family at their home weekly or bimonthly.

That way the family could be instructed in the Bible and encouraged by the fellowship in a confined area where the kid likely feels most comfortable and is least likely to act out.

Also,that would ensure that other church attendees get to worship in peace and safety.

[balli]

So, can the autistic handle taking valium?

[Jimcs50]

Wwjd?

[mrsmaalox]

And another option, a pastor or someone from the church could meet with the family at their home weekly or bimonthly.

That way the family could be instructed in the Bible and encouraged by the fellowship in a confined area where the kid likely feels most comfortable and is least likely to act out.

Also,that would ensure that other church attendees get to worship in peace and safety.

That sounds like the perfect solution to me.

[desflood]

And another option, a pastor or someone from the church could meet with the family at their home weekly or bimonthly.

That way the family could be instructed in the Bible and encouraged by the fellowship in a confined area where the kid likely feels most comfortable and is least likely to act out.

Also,that would ensure that other church attendees get to worship in peace and safety.
Angel, this is an excellent idea. A lot of churches don't seem to harbor that spirit of "reaching out" in these days, however. I wonder why?

[Kriz-Maxima]

You dont need to go to church to be religious, Im sure God will understand. If the kid did those things then he shouldnt be there.

[Blake]

And another option, a pastor or someone from the church could meet with the family at their home weekly or bimonthly.

That way the family could be instructed in the Bible and encouraged by the fellowship in a confined area where the kid likely feels most comfortable and is least likely to act out.

Also,that would ensure that other church attendees get to worship in peace and safety.

or, if they feel like they absolutely have to go to the church, then sit in the basement and watch the telecast like the church requested.

[ShoogarBear]

Maybe they just need to issue shoulder pads to the old ladies.

[mrsmaalox]

Maybe they just need to issue shoulder pads to the old ladies.

Yea or gag the kid and wheel him in, in 4pt restraints!!! :lol sorry.:oops

[Blake]

Angel, this is an excellent idea. A lot of churches don't seem to harbor that spirit of "reaching out" in these days, however. I wonder why?

with technology being what it is, I don't see why the church needs to make a special exception for this kid.

Being in the actual building should be far down the list of priorities as far as what you should get out of the Sunday sermon.

[Kriz-Maxima]

Yea or gag the kid and wheel him in, in 4pt restraints!!! :lol sorry.:oops
http://www.psicofxp.com/forums/images/contenidos/canibal/canibal3.jpg

Yeah, it could work.

[mrsmaalox]

http://www.psicofxp.com/forums/images/contenidos/canibal/canibal3.jpg

Yeah, it could work.

Oh you're baaad! Worse than me.

[ShoogarBear]

http://www.psicofxp.com/forums/images/contenidos/canibal/canibal3.jpg


"Hel-looooo, Carol Racccce!"

[angel_luv]

with technology being what it is, I don't see why the church needs to make a special exception for this kid.

Being in the actual building should be far down the list of priorities as far as what you should get out of the Sunday sermon.

Jesus preached a very personal gospel. Read the new testament.

Having gone through some family stress in my own life, a lot of times what you need is the fellowship- to be known and to feel that people care about you specifically.
To me, that is true Christianity.

[desflood]

with technology being what it is, I don't see why the church needs to make a special exception for this kid.

Being in the actual building should be far down the list of priorities as far as what you should get out of the Sunday sermon.
Granted, it's been a long time since I've attended any kind of church, but for me the reason for going was to bring myself closer to God's word and presence through a connection with other like-minded people. For a lot of Christians, that socialization is a big part of the way they express their faith.

[Lord Voldemort]

Wwjd?WWLVD?

[Blake]

Jesus preached a very personal gospel. Read the new testament.

Having gone through some family stress in my own life, a lot of times what you need is the fellowship- to be known and to feel that people care about you specifically.
To me, that is true Christianity.

most, pretty much all churches have ministry that reaches out to the community and it's members.

I'm not sure what you think the church should do.....have a mass every week in their house? pass out the little crackers? shake hands with each other?

There is a line of what's reasonable, even for a church, that they should be able to say 'ok, that's as far as we can go'.

[Blake]

Granted, it's been a long time since I've attended any kind of church, but for me the reason for going was to bring myself closer to God's word and presence through a connection with other like-minded people. For a lot of Christians, that socialization is a big part of the way they express their faith.

right, but at what point does disturbing the rest of the church patrons become the issue? I don't want to get urinated on at church and I think I'm being reasonable when I say that.

[1369]

most, pretty much all churches have ministry that reaches out to the community and it's members.

I'm not sure what you think the church should do.....have a mass every week in their house? pass out the little crackers? shake hands with each other?

There is a line of what's reasonable, even for a church, that they should be able to say 'ok, that's as far as we can go'.

Why couldn't the priest (If the parish is small enough) or a deacon come by once a week and administer the sacrament? Don't they do the same thing in nursing homes and hospitals for their parishioners?

[Evan]

I'm rather proud of myself for having the will power to not post the sloth pic from Goonies where he is chained to the wall.

Of course, google image search doesn't work at my job...

[desflood]

I'm rather proud of myself for having the will power to not post the sloth pic from Goonies where he is chained to the wall.

Of course, google image search doesn't work at my job...
You are a bad, bad, and very funny man.

[Kriz-Maxima]

I'm rather proud of myself for having the will power to not post the sloth pic from Goonies where he is chained to the wall.

Of course, google image search doesn't work at my job...


Ha! Someone who is worse than me mrsmaalox

[Evan]

:rollin

In all seriousness..growing up we had the same situation with a neighbor but he was much smaller than the lad in this story. He got more dangerous as he got older and he eventually had to be moved to an assisted living type home. He didn't look autistic by any means but every female in the area was wary of him.It all started with him standing in a tree at the park yelling at girls as they walked by. At first his parents scoffed at this being a problem but within 4 years he was a registered sex offender.

Perception is reality I suppose with these type of situations. Everytime a girl came by my house I would wait out front and make sure he wasn't near by when they walked inside.

Difficult situation for the church members.

[angel_luv]

most, pretty much all churches have ministry that reaches out to the community and it's members.

I'm not sure what you think the church should do.....have a mass every week in their house? pass out the little crackers? shake hands with each other?

There is a line of what's reasonable, even for a church, that they should be able to say 'ok, that's as far as we can go'.

If your people feel neglected, I think that should motivate you to reach out even more.

It doesn't have to be the same person who visits all the time, either.
But if your church won't love you and help you no matter what, who will?

Of course, I come from a very family oriented church. More than just everyone having their own families, people at my church look out for each other like they would their own family.

It is a rare and very refreshing quality.

[Heath Ledger]

Surely there is a church for handicapped people right? I mean god loves them too...

[mrsmaalox]

Surely there is a church for handicapped people right? I mean god loves them too...

That's my Heath, always thinking 24/7!! You are absolutely right. All hospitals have chapels and regular services. Anyone is welcome and I believe the family would find themselves accepted and understood. :tu

[Blake]

Why couldn't the priest (If the parish is small enough) or a deacon come by once a week and administer the sacrament? Don't they do the same thing in nursing homes and hospitals for their parishioners?

I agree, but from what I understand from this article, this mom wants her and her son to be in the church every Sunday with all the other people.

[Blake]

If your people feel neglected, I think that should motivate you to reach out even more.

It doesn't have to be the same person who visits all the time, either.
But if your church won't love you and help you no matter what, who will?

Of course, I come from a very family oriented church. More than just everyone having their own families, people at my church look out for each other like they would their own family.

It is a rare and very refreshing quality.

ok, I guess I'm not getting what you are suggesting.

Seems to me though that the church has done everything reasonable, but this lady just doesn't want to leave the actual church grounds:


Walz did not return calls seeking comment, but Jane Marrin, who works for the Diocese of St. Cloud and is acting as a spokeswoman for the parish, said the church board tried working with the Races to find "reasonable accommodations." That included offering a video feed of Mass that could be watched in the church basement.

The family refused all suggestions, she said.
"It's a difficult issue," Marrin said. "There are no easy answers."
Carol Race dismissed the church's suggestion that Adam watch a video feed in the church basement, saying that "does not have the same status as attending Mass. Otherwise we could all just sit home and watch it on TV and not bother to come in."

"It's considered a sin in the Catholic church not to attend Mass on Sundays and every holy day of obligation," she said. "And that's what this is about. I'm just trying to fulfill my obligations."

[angel_luv]

You may be right.

[Don Quixote]

Granted, it's been a long time since I've attended any kind of church, but for me the reason for going was to bring myself closer to God's word and presence through a connection with other like-minded people. For a lot of Christians, that socialization is a big part of the way they express their faith.

Yes, exactly. That is a crucial aspect that the church provides -- the desire to be with other believers and worship with them in community. Technology can never replace that. And after all, how can you say you love God, and blow off his church?

But the church can certainly use this as an outreach possibility.

[whottt]

This is kind of a touch choice.

I don't see how that Church can ban the kid and still claim to be the voice of God etc.


Maybe they should get some volunteers to help the family mind him when's at Church.


On the urination thing...

The Church said he urinated on parts of the Church..the Mom didn't deny that, what she said was that he didn't urinate on any one :lol.


It is a tough choice but IMO, they can't be banning that kid from Church and then simultaneously speaking of forgiveness and enlightenment.

[Blake]

Yes, exactly. That is a crucial aspect that the church provides -- the desire to be with other believers and worship with them in community. Technology can never replace that. And after all, how can you say you love God, and blow off his church?

But the church can certainly use this as an outreach possibility.

actually, there are churches where you can 'be with others and worship with them' online.

[Blake]

This is kind of a touch choice.

I don't see how that Church can ban the kid and still claim to be the voice of God etc.

It is a tough choice but IMO, they can't be banning that kid from Church and then simultaneously speaking of forgiveness and enlightenment.

We don't know the exact details, but they said they tried to work out reasonable accomodations to which they declined.

At some point, the "Christian" mom needs to give in a bit and try to meet the church halfway.

[ashbeeigh]

The thing that gets me is the fact that there was no mention of any needs based ministries, like a disabiled ministry or something. I'm no Catholic, but at my church there are special services and accomodations made for people with disabilities, disruptive or not.

[Don Quixote]

actually, there are churches where you can 'be with others and worship with them' online.

Yes, I have heard of these churches. Assuming that we're both talking about churches which are mostly online (and not just regular churches with a website), I'm not sure how much of a future they have. A major motif of the church (and the Gospel in general) is the importance of real relationships with people who are physically with you worshiping. Without a real physical body, I don't how the church survives.

[Kriz-Maxima]

Carol Race dismissed the church's suggestion that Adam watch a video feed in the church basement, saying that "does not have the same status as attending Mass. Otherwise we could all just sit home and watch it on TV and not bother to come in."

Im sorry but if I go to church is to connect with God, not to acquire some sort of status.

Even at her home she keeps her son in a separate room from her other children. Seems to me that she is being rather unreasonable.

[exstatic]

Yea or gag the kid and wheel him in, in 4pt restraints!!! :lol sorry.:oops

:lol I'm glad I'm not the only twisted one. I was thinking "tie him up in the cry room".

Seriously, if he's 225# and urinating, he needs to NOT be there. The woman is being unreasonable. I'm guessing that if he's 13 and that size that he is also not mainstreamed at school.

[BigZak]

WWLVD?


what LV should do is get some sun...

[BigZak]

Surely there is a church for handicapped people right? I mean god loves them too...


not really...i mean...probobaly just as much as he loves the starving kids in africa...:wakeup

[BigZak]

It is a tough choice but IMO, they can't be banning that kid from Church and then simultaneously speaking of forgiveness and enlightenment.



sure they can. it's Jesus forgiveness and enlightenment they are preaching...not their own...and even Jesus knew, just like Spock, that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few...

[Don Quixote]

Um, no. Read Luke 15 again. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=15&version=31

It has three parables of Jesus -- the parable of the lost sheep, the parable of the lost coin, and the parable of the lost son.

[clambake]

Um, no. Read Luke 15 again. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=15&version=31

It has three parables of Jesus -- the parable of the lost sheep, the parable of the lost coin, and the parable of the lost son.

:lol a grown man pimping fairy tales

:lol do you have angel pinned in the corner yet?

[Don Quixote]

:lol I'm glad I'm not the only twisted one. I was thinking "tie him up in the cry room".

Seriously, if he's 225# and urinating, he needs to NOT be there. The woman is being unreasonable. I'm guessing that if he's 13 and that size that he is also not mainstreamed at school.

You're right. This church appears to have been more than reasonable with this family. My only concern is that perhaps this could serve as an outreach opportunity, oddly enough, to families with special-needs kids, and I hope the church is not missing out on it.

[Bigzax]

Um, no. Read Luke 15 again. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=15&version=31

It has three parables of Jesus -- the parable of the lost sheep, the parable of the lost coin, and the parable of the lost son.


does Judas count as a lost sheep...or is he the exception? :wakeup

[Don Quixote]

Well, Judas is an interesting case. He certainly did some bad things that deserved punishment. And I would argue that he did certain things to fulfill OT prophecy and when he was "not in his right mind."

But don't doubt for a minute that Jesus loved him and prayed for his restoration. He most certainly did. And even if, say, he hated Judas (makes no sense, Judas was one of the 12), how does it follow that he, or the church, hates or doesn't care about handicapped kids? Or us?

Sometimes people make choices, horrible choices, and they have to face the music for it, whether it be broken relationships, maybe time in prison, maybe eternal punishment. But that does not negate the love Christ has for each of us. Do I need to provide scripture, or will you take my word for it?

[Bigzax]

Well, Judas is an interesting case. He certainly did some bad things that deserved punishment. And I would argue that he did certain things to fulfill OT prophecy and when he was "not in his right mind."

But don't doubt for a minute that Jesus loved him and prayed for his restoration. He most certainly did. And even if, say, he hated Judas (makes no sense, Judas was one of the 12), how does it follow that he, or the church, hates or doesn't care about handicapped kids? Or us?

Sometimes people make choices, horrible choices, and they have to face the music for it, whether it be broken relationships, maybe time in prison, maybe eternal punishment. But that does not negate the love Christ has for each of us. Do I need to provide scripture, or will you take my word for it?



Well, this kid is an interesting case. He certainly did some bad things that deserved punishment. And I would argue that he did certain things when he was "not in his right mind."

But don't doubt for a minute that the Church loves him and prays for his restoration. They most certainly do.

Sometimes people make choices, horrible choices, and they have to face the music for it, whether it be peeing in the holy water, the alter, etc. But that does not negate the love Christ or the Church has for each of us.

Do I need to continue posting or will you take your word for it?
:wakeup

[Don Quixote]

At this point, I'm not even sure what your position is. I'm all for the church "banning" him from the services. They've been more than reasonable. But let's not construe it as a lack of love for the family. Certainly Jesus does not love him less.

Is that your position? :wtf

[Kriz-Maxima]

Judas did what he was supposed to do, no surprises there.

[Don Quixote]

Hmm ... I've grappled with that one ever since I became a Christian. How and to what extent did Judas have free will in the matter? I don't know. I'm open to all logical, biblically-based arguments either way. I still don't see what Judas has to do with a special-needs kid.

[Blake]

why is Judas even a point of discussion here? Did I miss the part of scripture that stated "and Judas, the 12th disciple, was stricken with autism"?

[Don Quixote]

Not sure. A couple of folks asserted that maybe God doesn't love special-needs people, or the poor, as much. I said yes he does, and gave biblical examples. The reply was, was Judas an exception? I said probably not, and how is it relevant? And that's where we are.

[Blake]

Judas falls in that sub category under pre-destination. Same thing when Jesus told Peter about the cock crowing three times.

We have free will, but God has already seen our future.

[Kriz-Maxima]

This aint even about God. This is about a mother who has absolutely no consideration for the general public. Her kid is violent she has to accept it and accomodate it.

[Blake]

This aint even about God. This is about a mother who has absolutely no consideration for the general public. Her kid is violent she has to accept it and accomodate it.

yeah, that pretty much sums it up.

[Don Quixote]

I basically agree. My only concern is that the church could use this as an opportunity to reach out the the family, that's all.

And God got dragged into this by, as it usually happens, when some posters say something strange or dumb about God. A message-board drive-by, so to speak -- pull up, roll down the window, say something bigoted against religion, and then drive off. Happens all the time. And I guess I can't help myself to help clean up the mess when this happens.

But this by no means should discourage the large number of honest people who have genuine questions about God and religion in general. Most posts about God are rather decent.

[CosmicCowboy]

http://www.barcade.com/media/images/2910_TommyPinball.jpg

They need to get that kid a pinball machine.

and watch out for Uncle Ernie...

[BigZak]

my point was that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few...


i think we are all in agreement the the problem is the mother doesn't see it this way...i can't blame her...it's her kid...i'd fight for my kid too...but sensibility has to take hold at some point...

[Don Quixote]

Okay, so we almost agree. I agree that the woman is not being reasonable.

I'd only question your assertion that the "needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." This is an ethical philosophy known as utilitarianism, and it's popular today. Most of politics is utilitarian. But is that the ethic that we find in scripture? I'm not sure -- indeed, Luke 15 seems to be totally against it.

[Blake]

[B]my point was that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few...


Whether's it's one or a thousand, the number of people is not an issue.

I think when the needs of others get hindered in this manner, then something has to be done.

It's a shame on certain levels, but a lot of this simply falls on mom being selfish. Her desire to make sure she doesn't 'sin' is doing more harm than good for everyone involved.

[tlongII]

Yes, exactly. That is a crucial aspect that the church provides -- the desire to be with other believers and worship with them in community. Technology can never replace that. And after all, how can you say you love God, and blow off his church?

But the church can certainly use this as an outreach possibility.

LMAO. Just which church would that be?

[tlongII]

:lol I'm glad I'm not the only twisted one. I was thinking "tie him up in the cry room".

Seriously, if he's 225# and urinating, he needs to NOT be there. The woman is being unreasonable. I'm guessing that if he's 13 and that size that he is also not mainstreamed at school.

I weigh 225 and I urinate. Does that mean I can't go to church?

[Blake]

I weigh 225 and I urinate. Does that mean I can't go to church?

That depends.........and by Depends, I mean do you wear an adult diaper?

[BigZak]

Okay, so we almost agree. I agree that the woman is not being reasonable.

I'd only question your assertion that the "needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." This is an ethical philosophy known as utilitarianism, and it's popular today. Most of politics is utilitarian. But is that the ethic that we find in scripture? I'm not sure -- indeed, Luke 15 seems to be totally against it.



as you have pointed out, Luke 15 seems to be totally against it, which is why i brought up Judas as the exception...he was part of the flock, was he not? One of the 12 as you pointed out. Jesus was aware of his lost sheep. He sacrificed his sheep for the good of the many...none of us can say it wasn't in His power to stop the betrayal...but whatever the reason...it is what it is...can we blame a church for doing the same?

[Blake]

as you have pointed out, Luke 15 seems to be totally against it, which is why i brought up Judas as the exception...he was part of the flock, was he not? One of the 12 as you pointed out. Jesus was aware of his lost sheep. He sacrificed his sheep for the good of the many...none of us can say it wasn't in His power to stop the betrayal...but whatever the reason...it is what it is...can we blame a church for doing the same?

leaving the 99 to go after the 1 sheep is not a good analogy in this case.

If that one particular sheep started urinating on, started biting the other sheep or came down with rabies, then that sheep has to be separated from the rest of the flock........possibly with a restraining order.

even so, the church has opened it's door to this family and tried to make what I think are reasonable accomodations by allowing them an actual feed in the church building itself on Sundays.

[2Blonde]

I have to say that I'm surprised that most of you feel he should be removed from church. I'm a catholic and attend mass (almost) every week. Both of the parishes I have attended in SA over the last 8 years have autistic and/or mentally retarded children and adults. True, they sometimes act out, but it's nothing when you take into consideration the actions of so called normal children during mass. I have seen parents with children, whose screams would pierce the eardrums of someone a football field away, just sit there and act oblivious through an hour & a half mass. There are kids kicking, climbing all over the pews and throwing things at anyone in their reach.

When a child who is mentally challenged acts out, my first and only thought is "God Bless them!!! They must be amazing to make the commitment to do all that it takes to get this child to mass every week." So the kid pees in church once in a while. How many babies pee & poop and then leak on Mom or Dad?

I saw in the article that this family always sits in the back of the church. It sounds as though they are doing the right thing to try and minimize interaction while still being able to show this young man how faith is supposed to be practiced.

I guess I missed the part at orientation that said only the normal are allowed to attend mass. I suppose the next step is to ban people who don't bathe often enough for our tastes too! Ooh, then we could start in on the fashion challenged after that? :rolleyes

[Mol3663]

Children with developmental delays and disorders such as autism often qualify for and receive services/therapies. Maybe one of the child's therapists or habilitation workers could attend church with the family and see if there are accomodations that can be made or if there are certain triggers that are setting off the behaviors.

For example, if he is hypersensitive to auditory input (music, singing) that might be a time to take him for a break or a walk or something. Or if he's sensitive to touch and eye contact and gets overwhelmed during the whole handshaking, peace be with you part of Catholic mass.

Unfortunately, it sounds like it's too late for something like that since it's already gone to restraining orders and legal stuff. Too bad, I think there are people in the community who could have helped the family and the church work this out.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

I have to say that I'm surprised that most of you feel he should be removed from church. I'm a catholic and attend mass (almost) every week. Both of the parishes I have attended in SA over the last 8 years have autistic and/or mentally retarded children and adults. True, they sometimes act out, but it's nothing when you take into consideration the actions of so called normal children during mass. I have seen parents with children, whose screams would pierce the eardrums of someone a football field away, just sit there and act oblivious through an hour & a half mass. There are kids kicking, climbing all over the pews and throwing things at anyone in their reach.

When a child who is mentally challenged acts out, my first and only thought is "God Bless them!!! They must be amazing to make the commitment to do all that it takes to get this child to mass every week." So the kid pees in church once in a while. How many babies pee & poop and then leak on Mom or Dad?

I saw in the article that this family always sits in the back of the church. It sounds as though they are doing the right thing to try and minimize interaction while still being able to show this young man how faith is supposed to be practiced.

I guess I missed the part at orientation that said only the normal are allowed to attend mass. I suppose the next step is to ban people who don't bathe often enough for our tastes too! Ooh, then we could start in on the fashion challenged after that? :rolleyes

Yeah, it's the same thing, except completely different.


She said her son makes spitting faces but doesn't spit and acknowledged he has occasional problems with incontinence. She says that she and her husband sit on Adam because their weight calms him down, which is why he pulled the girl onto him.

She also said they do use soft straps to bind Adam's hands and feet on occasion because it calms him, as does the revving sound of engines, which is why he started the cars.

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/Story?id=4885322&page=2

So, they have to sit on him/strap him down or else he'll grab other children, knock other people over and/or start other parishioner's cars in the parking lot, revving the engine.

Yeah, it's the church that is being unreasonable.