RJ and Pop's biggest mistake

[twilo73]

I think that historically the Spurs tend to make one big mistake every year they win a Championship... and it is to resign players that aren't worth much. They did it with Malik Rose, Jaren Jackson, Robert Horry, Matt Bonner, Jacque Vaughn, and I would even go as far as saying that Oberto's contract was also a mistake. Couple that with two very dumb free agent signings in Elson and Butler. And a cherry on top in letting go players like Stephen Jackson, and Turkoglu who would have been great contributors.

I know many of you will say that they do as loyalty to players who were part of the championship team... but frankly they have to learn a little more about planning ahead.

[travis2]

1) The Spurs didn't "let Jackson go". He left. The Spurs made him an offer...he refused it...and ended up taking less to play in Atlanta. This point has been made ad nauseum.

2) There's a reason Turkoglu was "most improved" this year...because he SUCKED before this year.

[dougp]

Malik Rose was worth resigning, just not the money. Horry? Sorry man, but he was worth it - even Vaughn has been good as a backup. Matt Bonner? That one's only a problem because of the length, and I personally think that Oberto is good - he's just not as solid as we need in a starter.

[Bartleby]

I guess loyalty plays a part of their decision making, but I think their conservative approach to roster decisions is a bigger one i.e. they aren't big risk takers. They like to stick with what works and go with known quantities rather than gamble on players who may have a bigger payoff.

[SenorSpur]

Malik Rose was worth resigning, just not the money. Horry? Sorry man, but he was worth it - even Vaughn has been good as a backup. Matt Bonner? That one's only a problem because of the length, and I personally think that Oberto is good - he's just not as solid as we need in a starter.

I had and have issues with Oberto too - up until his Game 4 performance in the NBA Finals. He has value to this team, but he SHOULD NOT be a starter for this team. The fact the Pop continues to force him into that role says as much to the lack of depth at the position as anything else.

As for reupping Bonner - mistake.
Scola? Looks like another mistake - especially now that Splitter is lost

[kobyz]

i have only issue with the Bonner contract

[tav1]

I think they've done well, with the exception of a few recent free agent signings. Butler was a mistake. Bonner, in my estimation, was a mistake. But the Butler signing had a hand in the Scola trade, which was unavoidable.

But for the most part, they come up aces more times than not.

[rascal]

I don't believe in signing players due to loyalty. You sign players for what they will give you in the future not the past.

Signing players for what they gave you in the past without the foresight of the future will lead to failure.

[101A]

I don't believe in signing players due to loyalty. You sign players for what they will give you in the future not the past.

Signing players for what they gave you in the past without the foresight of the future will lead to failure.


In a market as small as SA's; coupled with the limited financial (relatively) resources at their disposal; the way the front office handles its player relationships is VERY important when it come to negotiating with players who are not yet Spurs. Spurs don't have the liberty of being bottom line businessmen in many cases.

[MoSpur]

I somewhat agree with the original post.

[rascal]

I guess loyalty plays a part of their decision making, but I think their conservative approach to roster decisions is a bigger one i.e. they aren't big risk takers. They like to stick with what works and go with known quantities rather than gamble on players who may have a bigger payoff.



Agree
Too many missed opportunities to land high risk/high reward players like R Wallace and Sprewell as examples.

[rascal]

In a market as small as SA's; coupled with the limited financial (relatively) resources at their disposal; the way the front office handles its player relationships is VERY important when it come to negotiating with players who are not yet Spurs. Spurs don't have the liberty of being bottom line businessmen in many cases.


Yeah right! Thats why they attract so many of the top free agents.

[MoSpur]

I will say that hindsight is 20/20. They could have offered more $$$ to S Jackson.

[travis2]

Or he could have accepted the $$$ offered instead of taking LESS to play elsewhere.

Jackson was not a mistake on the Spurs part.

[Whisky Dog]

Who the fuck is RJ?

Sure there were some mistakes, but Nobody works mistake free. They've done a better job than anyone at being right the most.

[MaNu4Tres]

If i remember correctly Jackson was offered 3 years 9 million and he wanted close to the MLE....For a guy that was young and upcoming, who hit big shots and was a proven playoff warrior I think it was wrong for the spurs to laugh at what the MLE he wanted. Especially when the year after they offer the money Jackson wanted to Brent Barry. Don't get me wrong Barry has been a solid contributor to our team but for the same price I'd rather have Action Jackson. I think RC and Pop going after Jason Kidd and not Jermaine O'Neal was a mistake at the time with Parker growing and maturing into a top PG. Now it doesn't look so bad with Jermaine being hurt a lot. On another hand giving Rasho and Malik 90 million dollars in contract was absurd. Even though R.C has gotten rid of their contracts for Matt Bonner 2 first round picks and a rental of Nazr.

[rAm]

Yeah right! Thats why they attract so many of the top free agents.

sure they do

[MoSpur]

Or he could have accepted the $$$ offered instead of taking LESS to play elsewhere.

Jackson was not a mistake on the Spurs part.

Jackson's planned worked out pretty good for him. He wnet out and played in Atlanta and played his way to a pretty big contract and all he had to do was play in Atlanta for one year. Let's see you take less money for three years when you know you are worth more and will make more in about two more years. People act like taking less money is so easy. In this world, more money usually lures people.

[MaNu4Tres]

Mistakes since 2002:
-Signing Malik Rose to a 7 year 42 million dollar contract. To cover up this mistake R.C had to take away some of our future by giving up 2 first round picks to get rid of Malik. They also recieved a year rental of Nazr Mohammed.( Was a piece that helped us win a ring in 05').

-Not giving Stephen Jackson the 5 mil per he wanted. R.C probably made the best trade in recent Spurs history by trading away retiring Danny Ferry for a year rental of Hedo and Ron chuck Mercer.



- Going after Jason Kidd and not Jermaine O'Neal, resulted in us trading our first round pick which could have been Barbosa or Josh Howard

- Signing Rasho Nestorovic to a 6 year 48 million dollar contract. After 3 years with the Spurs he was traded for Matt Bonner and Eric Williams (yay).

- Signing of Jackie Butler for 3 years 8 million. Resulted in us having to part with one of the top assets overseas in Luis Scola so Peter Holt didn't have to pay the Lux tax.

- Resigning of Matt Bonner for 3 years 9 million. Last year in a water downed free agency where Udoka had to settle for 1 million, Spurs for some reason were in a hurry to resign Bonner and signed him withing the first week of free agency. If they could have waited they could have signed Bonner for a lot less.

- Signing Matt Bonner instead of Luis Scola.

- Trading away Beno Udrih when his value was at the lowest it could possibly be for a player in the NBA.



- Drafting Tiago Splitter.

All in all R.C has done a good job covering up his mistakes by trading away the contracts of Malik and Rasho, but he's done a piss poor job when it comes to the draft. The only players we have to show for the past 7 drafts are Ian Mahinmi, and Tiago Splitter( who probably won't dawn the black and silver).

[Brutalis]

Mistakes since 2002:
-Signing Malik Rose to a 7 year 42 million dollar contract. To cover up this mistake R.C had to take away some of our future by giving up 2 first round picks to get rid of Malik. They also recieved a year rental of Nazr Mohammed.( Was a piece that helped us win a ring in 05').

-Not giving Stephen Jackson the 5 mil per he wanted. R.C probably made the best trade in recent Spurs history by trading away retiring Danny Ferry for a year rental of Hedo and Ron chuck Mercer.



- Going after Jason Kidd and not Jermaine O'Neal, resulted in us trading our first round pick which could have been Barbosa or Josh Howard

- Signing Rasho Nestorovic to a 6 year 48 million dollar contract. After 3 years with the Spurs he was traded for Matt Bonner and Eric Williams (yay).

- Signing of Jackie Butler for 3 years 8 million. Resulted in us having to part with one of the top assets overseas in Luis Scola so Peter Holt didn't have to pay the Lux tax.

- Resigning of Matt Bonner for 3 years 9 million. Last year in a water downed free agency where Udoka had to settle for 1 million, Spurs for some reason were in a hurry to resign Bonner and signed him withing the first week of free agency. If they could have waited they could have signed Bonner for a lot less.

- Signing Matt Bonner instead of Luis Scola.

- Trading away Beno Udrih when his value was at the lowest it could possibly be for a player in the NBA.



- Drafting Tiago Splitter.

All in all R.C has done a good job covering up his mistakes by trading away the contracts of Malik and Rasho, but he's done a piss poor job when it comes to the draft. The only players we have to show for the past 7 drafts are Ian Mahinmi, and Tiago Splitter( who probably won't dawn the black and silver).

Good post.

[MoSpur]

I agree with the above, but the Spurs have done well for themselves. We have won three championships since our first in 1999. The mistakes are obvious now, but back then, some of those didn't seem like mistakes.

[rascal]

I agree with the above, but the Spurs have done well for themselves. We have won three championships since our first in 1999. The mistakes are obvious now, but back then, some of those didn't seem like mistakes.



Maybe to you they didn't seem like mistakes.

[ducks]

what are your mistakes?

[ducks]

Maybe to you they didn't seem like mistakes.

hindsight is always 20-20

and they is know way to know if sj would have played well in sa after his coach mike brown left

also sj wanted to guarantee start
would that have went over well with other spur players that have to earn to start?

[T Park]

Going after Jason Kidd and not Jermaine O'Neal

jermaine O'Neal committed to the Pacers before they went after kidd.


wrong again.

[ducks]

jermaine O'Neal committed to the Pacers before they went after kidd.


wrong again.

wrong

[twilo73]

I guess loyalty plays a part of their decision making, but I think their conservative approach to roster decisions is a bigger one i.e. they aren't big risk takers. They like to stick with what works and go with known quantities rather than gamble on players who may have a bigger payoff.

I think you expressed what I wanted to say in my original post best. Thanks!! They go with what they had the year before without looking to IMPROVE on it. It is hard enought to repeat but doing without improving makes it almost impossible. There is a reason why we haven't won two in a row.... and this is it.


I agree with the above, but the Spurs have done well for themselves. We have won three championships since our first in 1999. The mistakes are obvious now, but back then, some of those didn't seem like mistakes.

We have won all three Championships since 1999 because we made two very good draft choices (Parker and Manu), one very good free agent signing (Bowen), and we have a very good coach, everything else I think has been OK at best.

Look I love Pop and I respect RC, but we hands down haven't made great choices in the free agent market and the draft.

In fact I'll go on the record in saying that it is a miracle or a tribute to Parker, Manu, Duncan, Bowen, and Pop that we have actually won three more Championships since the first one.

And for those who say hind sight is 20/20 I'm sure most of you knew (and I read it here so you can't say no) that we needed to get younger and needed a quality swingman and center even after winning last year... then we go and resign Bonner, Vaughn and Oberto. I remember reading a lot of people's post complaining about these moves... we knew it... RC should have known it too. We just didn't make any move to improve our weaknesses at all.

[timvp]

What does Air Gay have to do with any of this?

[MaNu4Tres]

Jermaine didn't sign any extension prior to free agency. Spurs could have sent out Pop and the crew to recruit him but their sights were on Jason Kidd. That was obvious.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

What does Air Gay have to do with any of this?

:lmao That's sig material right there.

[mrspurs]

except for jackson, cos he of course didnt want to come back..the rest of the players i agree on.....fab has been our biggest waste of time...its hard to make sense of fab, as a fan and player of the sport, its easy to see he is very smart for a big, plays all out every play, but its sad to say he is nothing more then a tall smart choke artist...if any of the other bigs named had as much basketball smarts as he we wouldnt be writing about this thread.....

[The Truth #6]

Many of what now is considered a failure was seen as a success at the time. The Butler signing was seen as a great savvy move at the time. As was the Hedo/Mercer acquisition. Butler ended up sucking but he had great potential at the time. As did Hedo.

Letting Sjax walk was dumb at the time in my opinion but Pop prefers foreigners always and so he went with Hedo. Hedo came on late in the regular season but he, like others, choked in the Lakers series. He became the goat and took off to the beach.

We signed Rasho because Tim didn't want to play center. Pop probably wanted to make Tim happy so he hauled ass over to Slovenia to sign him as soon as possible. I never liked Rasho, but there was some logic behind it. Who was our other choice for center that offspring - Candyman Olowakandi. An even worse loser. Hey, it wasn't a good Summer for centers.

Bonner's last contract was bad. I think the FO wanted to get it done quick and go on vacation. No other way to explain that off-season, especially considering Scola but they thought they had Splitter so at the time there were some who were cool with it. I think it was dumb like the Sjax situation but there was a backup plan. Bad luck with a crumbling US dollar killed that plan. Not exactly Pop's fault. Who knows, maybe Holt should have sold more tractors?

In all, most of these decisions have been the result of a consistent philosophy the FO practices. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

This Summer will be the real test of what the FO can or can't do. If they can't adapt, then our window will close sooner then we'd like.

[Appoggiatura]

Pop summed it up about Rasho when he called him a "cupcake" to the media.

[twilo73]

This Summer will be the real test of what the FO can or can't do. If they can't adapt, then our window will close sooner then we'd like.

Agreed and can we all agree that they have to pull some magic out of their behinds as this team needs at least 4 or 5 new faces to compete next year.

[T Park]

4 or 5?

What the hell?

[twilo73]

4 or 5?

What the hell?

:) I'm not saying 4 or 5 stars... 2 good players... one a swingman and the other a post guy.... and the other two or three young guys to infuse some youth into this team for the end of the bench.

[bigdog]

Jermaine O'Neal was a target for the Spurs, and they definitely did go after him.

He had a visit scheduled for San Antonio, but once Indiana found out about it, they offered him a huge contract the day before the visit and he signed it, so the visit was cancelled.

Jax was offered a contract, but he wanted more, and ended up taking less.
Now he is well worth the money he wanted in the first place, which looks bad on the Spurs part, but it's ok that was the past.

[T Park]

:) I'm not saying 4 or 5 stars... 2 good players... one a swingman and the other a post guy.... and the other two or three young guys to infuse some youth into this team for the end of the bench.

Mahinmi has already filled the post guy one.

What good does Youth do at the end of the bench as opposed to some veterans.

[jcrod]

Jermaine O'Neal was a target for the Spurs, and they definitely did go after him.

He had a visit scheduled for San Antonio, but once Indiana found out about it, they offered him a huge contract the day before the visit and he signed it, so the visit was cancelled.

Jax was offered a contract, but he wanted more, and ended up taking less.
Now he is well worth the money he wanted in the first place, which looks bad on the Spurs part, but it's ok that was the past.


The point was they went after Kidd hard, fast, and first. Do you think JO was flattered he was second? They would've had a chance if they went for him first (no time for IND to stop visit).

Yes they offered him 3 a yr, he wanted 5 a yr, they wouldn't negotiate above 3. Having SJ at 5 a yr would be a steal.

[jcrod]

Mahinmi has already filled the post guy one.

What good does Youth do at the end of the bench as opposed to some veterans.

Young veterans.....happy.