Cops kill man who beat toddler to death....GOOD!!!

[lebomb]

I hope this faggot gets sent to the fiery pits of hell as well.

:bang


TURLOCK, Calif. (AP) -- Police killed a 27-year-old man as he kicked, punched and stomped a toddler to death despite other people's attempts to stop him on a dark, country road, authorities said.

Investigators on Sunday were trying to establish the relationship between the suspect and the child they say he killed Saturday night. The Stanislaus County coroner said the boy appeared to be between 1 and 2 years old based on his size, according to county sheriff's deputy Royjindar Singh.

"It's been a long night of wondering, 'Why?' - not only for the officers and the passers-by who stopped and tried to help out, but for anyone. Why would somebody do this?" Singh said.

Singh said the coroner does not plan to confirm the identities of the suspect and victim until Monday. Because his injuries were so severe, the child will have to be identified through a blood or DNA test, he said.

The suspect had a child's car seat in the back of his four-door pickup truck. The truck caught the attention of an elderly couple at 10:13 p.m. Saturday because it was stopped in the two-lane road facing the wrong direction, Singh said.

As they got closer, the couple saw the man brutally beating the toddler behind his truck and throwing the child on the ground, according to Singh. Two or three other cars stopped, an unusual number to be passing through the remote area surrounded by a dairy, a cow pasture, a cornfield and a farmhouse, he said.

"What we got from witnesses is he was punching, slapping, kicking, stomping, shaking," Singh said. "They tried to intervene and get involved, but their efforts really didn't have an effect. The suspect was engaged in what he was doing. He just pushed them off and went back to it."

A sheriff's helicopter responding to emergency calls from the area landed in a cow pasture at 10:19 p.m. carrying a Modesto police officer who shot the man to death after he refused an order to stop beating the child, Singh said.

Paramedics tried to resuscitate the toddler, who was not breathing when they arrived. The boy was taken to a local hospital, where he was pronounced dead.

No children within the dead boy's age range have been reported kidnapped or missing in Stanislaus County, Singh said.

The incident happened on Bradbury Road about 10 miles west of Turlock, a city located about halfway between Sacramento and Fresno.

© 2008 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

[fatsack]

Cop of the Year

[thispego]

yeah because instant death is a LOT worse than a lifetime behind bars :rolleyes

[fatsack]

yeah because instant death is a LOT worse than a lifetime behind bars :rolleyes

and cheaper.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

Cool, we hadn't had a death penalty debate thread in about a week or so.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

Granted I don't know a ton about basic police procedure, but it seems that there are non-lethal options precisely so a cop doesn't have to fire a weapon anywhere near a child in peril. I don't feel a moment's sympathy for the guy, but I'm with pego. Taze the fucker, send him to prison, and let nature takes its course in there. Kid killers don't last long behind bars.

[Fillmoe]

I used to live 5 mins from Turlock Ca. Truly a shitty place.

[thispego]

and cheaper.

yeah i'd much rather my tax dollars go to keeping marijuana users behind bars rather than baby killers

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Saved the taxpayers some money. Too bad he didn't wing him a few times first though...

[desflood]

Too bad he didn't wing him a few times first though...
That was my first thought - he didn't hurt nearly enough to pay for his actions.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Granted I don't know a ton about basic police procedure, but it seems that there are non-lethal options precisely so a cop doesn't have to fire a weapon anywhere near a child in peril. I don't feel a moment's sympathy for the guy, but I'm pego. Taze the fucker, send him to prison, and let nature takes its course in there. Kid killers don't last long behind bars.

I'm guessing the cops intent was to save the life of the toddler. I don't think he'd be worrying about whether to use a tazer or a gun. In any case, I would hope he wouldn't. When confronted with a case like this, shoot the fucker first, then worry about whether or not you should have tazed him.

I do believe, based on the facts presented so far, that this dude was either on drugs or severely insane. Think about it, the cops told him to stop beating the child, at gun point I might add, and he just kept on beating... This is one fucked up individual, no doubt.

[Homeland Security]

We in the government are working on ways to bring about the bloodlust vengeance our citizens want. For too long America has been tied down by the limpwristed jurisprudential sensibilities of powdered wig-wearing effete 18th-century so-called intellectuals. Animals like this guy deserve cruel and/or unusual punishment.

Just a few of the programs the FBI and Homeland Security are working on:

Flaying -- in this procedure, we tie up a suspect by the wrists from the ceiling and use metal hooks to shred his skin off. A skilled flayer will miss major blood vessels so that the punishment can last longer. The successfully-flayed prisoner is then left alone for infection to kill him slowly and painfully.

Iron Maiden -- in this procedure, a suspect is locked in a sarcophagus-like chamber in which the door is lined with hundreds of spikes, which pierce the suspect's body as the door is closed. Newer models feature a small window at eye level and a drain at the base so the suspect can watch the blood drain out of his body as he suffers and slowly dies.

We have several other ideas! PM me for details.

[RandomGuy]

yeah because instant death is a LOT worse than a lifetime behind bars :rolleyes

Most criminals in prisons tend to take a very dim view of child-molesters or people that kill their kids so horrifically.

I would be willing to pay a good amount of money for the guy to have lived, just to throw him to the other prisoners and look the other way...

[RandomGuy]

Singh said the coroner does not plan to confirm the identities of the suspect and victim until Monday. Because his injuries were so severe, the child will have to be identified through a blood or DNA test, he said.

I read this at yahoo.news earlier but couldn't bring myself to post it.

:depressed

I have no words for this, other than wishing something from a movie I saw by a wise man named Marsellus:


What now? Let me tell you what now. I'ma call a coupla hard, pipe-hittin' n*****s, who'll go to work on the homes here with a pair of pliers and a blow torch. You hear me talkin', hillbilly boy? I ain't through with you by a damn sight. I'ma get medieval on your ass.

Too bad the cops did the obvious thing, not that I blame them. This is about a 100% justifiable, take-2-minutes-to-write-the-report-and-wrap-it-up shooting if I ever saw one.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

I read this at yahoo.news earlier but couldn't bring myself to post it.

:depressed

I have no words for this, other than wishing something from a movie I saw by a wise man named Marsellus:



Too bad the cops did the obvious thing, not that I blame them. This is about a 100% justifiable, take-2-minutes-to-write-the-report-and-wrap-it-up shooting if I ever saw one.

What I wouldn't give to have been there to pull the trigger... By the way, it really pisses me off that none of the witnesses managed to stop the fucker from beating up a 2 year old...

WTF!? Tackle him, fuck him up with a tire iron, I don't give a shit, but stop him from hurting the kid. I would have thought people would be braver. In the article it said the dude just pushed them away and kept beating the kid... fucker would have had to knock me the fuck out, let me tell you!

[RandomGuy]

What I wouldn't give to have been there to pull the trigger... By the way, it really pisses me off that none of the witnesses managed to stop the fucker from beating up a 2 year old...

WTF!? Tackle him, fuck him up with a tire iron, I don't give a shit, but stop him from hurting the kid. I would have thought people would be braver. In the article it said the dude just pushed them away and kept beating the kid... fucker would have had to knock me the fuck out, let me tell you!

It was an old couple that first stopped...

In Texas, with the concealed handgun laws, if you do that s*** by the side of the road...

"Yes officer, he wouldn't stop stomping the 2 year old, so I shot his ass 12 times."

"Ok sir, then, sign my autograph book, and you are free to go. Nice shot grouping."

[AlamoSpursFan]

By the way, it really pisses me off that none of the witnesses managed to stop the fucker from beating up a 2 year old...

WTF!? Tackle him, fuck him up with a tire iron, I don't give a shit, but stop him from hurting the kid. I would have thought people would be braver. In the article it said the dude just pushed them away and kept beating the kid... fucker would have had to knock me the fuck out, let me tell you!

R.I.F.


The truck caught the attention of an elderly couple at 10:13 p.m.

[lebomb]

What I wouldn't give to have been there to pull the trigger... By the way, it really pisses me off that none of the witnesses managed to stop the fucker from beating up a 2 year old...

WTF!? Tackle him, fuck him up with a tire iron, I don't give a shit, but stop him from hurting the kid. I would have thought people would be braver. In the article it said the dude just pushed them away and kept beating the kid... fucker would have had to knock me the fuck out, let me tell you!


I would have gone apeshit on that guy. I literally would have jerk snapped his neck. Ninja style. I would have kicked his knee backwards, or snapped his elbow. There is noway I would have stood by and watched that shit take place without going UFC on him. :ihit

[DarkReign]

I would have gone apeshit on that guy. I literally would have jerk snapped his neck. Ninja style. I would have kicked his knee backwards, or snapped his elbow. There is noway I would have stood by and watched that shit take place without going UFC on him. :ihit

Drop the lebomb on him.

[AlamoSpursFan]

The average elderly person doesn't do shit after about 7 p.m., much less ninja drop-kick a crazed child killer.

I'm just sayin'...

[PM5K]

Nice shot grouping, lol....

He might not have even had a taser....

[lebomb]

Nice shot grouping, lol....

He might not have even had a taser....

.......ehhhhh, a CAP in the ass was the best thing for that idiot. :rollin

[thispego]

Most criminals in prisons tend to take a very dim view of child-molesters or people that kill their kids so horrifically.

I would be willing to pay a good amount of money for the guy to have lived, just to throw him to the other prisoners and look the other way...

exactly

[CuckingFunt]

I used to live 5 mins from Turlock Ca. Truly a shitty place.

At least it's not Salida.

Turlock is where my dad/step-mother/sisters live, and his neighborhood is alright, but I'm not too familiar with the rest of the town. Boring as fuck, though.

[Anti.Hero]

yeah because instant death is a LOT worse than a lifetime behind bars :rolleyes

One is justice. The other is not.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

What I wouldn't give to have been there to pull the trigger... By the way, it really pisses me off that none of the witnesses managed to stop the fucker from beating up a 2 year old...

WTF!? Tackle him, fuck him up with a tire iron, I don't give a shit, but stop him from hurting the kid. I would have thought people would be braver. In the article it said the dude just pushed them away and kept beating the kid... fucker would have had to knock me the fuck out, let me tell you!

Agreed.


"What we got from witnesses is he was punching, slapping, kicking, stomping, shaking," Singh said. "They tried to intervene and get involved, but their efforts really didn't have an effect. The suspect was engaged in what he was doing. He just pushed them off and went back to it."

I read it like after the old couple showed up some other folks happened on the scene, if none of them did anything that's pretty bush league, but about what I'd expect out of the leftist pussies in California. He pushed them off? WTF? Bum rush his ass, all someone had to do was distract him long enough for someone else to grab the child and get him/her the hell out of there.

That's some weak ass shit, California. He would have taken two shots center mass here in Texas.

[thispego]

One is justice. The other is not.

the guy wanted to die. het got exactly what he wanted.

[Anti.Hero]

the guy wanted to die. het got exactly what he wanted.


Yet I still care not. What he did deserves torture (real torture, not solitary with some nice meals sprinkled in), instant death is the next best alternative. That's what he got. Good.

[Ronaldo McDonald]

Government needs to build a giant arena to put all these criminals in so that they can fight it out and kill eachother. Better yet, create a league, have drafts, and put it on a cable network, and make sure Charles, Kenny, and E.J. do the Half-Time show.

[Ronaldo McDonald]

Also, make Rick Bucher the guy who does interviews at half-time.

[Don Quixote]

Yes, let's bring back the Roman circus! Lions and everything.

[O-Factor]

Fuck that low life piece of shit. I'd of taken my crowbar to him if I saw that. Glad he's dead, but I'd of rather seen him going to prison getting beaten and raped for life.

[Emanuel20]

I can't believe people let the kid die. :cry
What kind an idiot would do such a thing especially to a child?....:depressed

[Don Quixote]

You're right. It's completely wrong and unfair.

[The sone]

nausea...

wish i would have caught him, no mercy

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

More info:

===============

Minutes of horror as Turlock father beats, kills his son
By Julia Prodis Sulek and Ken McLaughlin
Mercury News
Article Launched: 06/16/2008 07:43:19 PM PDT

Six-and-a-half minutes.

Six-and-a-half minutes for two men to try to stop a father from beating "the demons" out of his two-year-old son in the middle of a dark country road. Six-and-a-half minutes for a young woman to crouch in her car and watch in helpless shock. Six-and-a-half minutes for a police officer to land in a helicopter, run across a cow pasture, and shoot the man squarely in the forehead.

Six-and-a-half minutes of horror.

"It seemed like forever," said Lisa Mota, 23, who was driving to her parents' house when she came upon the scene after 10 p.m. Saturday. "I need to get this out of my head and I don't think it will be for the rest of my life."

On Monday, all that's left of the violence is blood seeping into the cracks of West Bradbury Road, just outside the Central Valley town of Turlock. Parents and children came and went all day placing ceramic angels and stuffed animals along the barbed wire fence. One white teddy bear held a heart that said, "Besos y Abrazos." It means kisses and hugs.

"The terrible man got to die in an instant, but his baby had to suffer endlessly," said Joel Arana, 36, a father of a toddler who stopped by to pay his respects. "It's not right. But God will take care of it."

The man has been identified by police as Sergio Casian Aguilar, 27. He and his wife had been separated. In an interview with detectives Monday, Frances Liliana Casian said she didn't know why Aguilar would do such a thing.

He had no police record and she didn't know of any mental illness, said Deputy Royjindar Singh, a spokesman for the Stanislaus County Sheriff's Department. A toxicology test for drugs and alcohol is under way.

As news of the roadside beating spread across the country, letters of support and thanks poured in for the pilot who landed the helicopter in the dark cow pasture and the Modesto police officer who shot Aguilar.

"That baby needed help and I knew we had to do something," the pilot, Sheriff's Deputy Rob Latapie said in a statement.

"I have never seen anything like that before and I hope I never have to again," said Officer Jerry Ramar, who fired the fatal shot.

Three cars stopped on the darkened lane that night. Three 911 calls were placed. And two men who happened upon this scene defied their fears of what this man was capable of, what weapons he might have, and tried to save a child.

It wasn't enough.

Dan Robinson, chief of the Crows Landing volunteer fire department, was driving home Saturday night with his wife and two grown children when their headlights shined on a man standing behind a parked pickup truck, which was in the next lane, facing oncoming traffic. At first, they thought maybe it was a hunter with a dead animal.

"As they slowed down, someone noticed it was an infant," Singh said. "He stopped, backed up and the dad got out."

It's unclear when the beating began, but the first 911 call came at just after 10:13 p.m. It was from someone named Mike, who may be Robinson's son, Singh said. He gave just a brief description before the cell phone went dead.

By then, Robinson had confronted Aguilar and "was trying to get him to stop, trying to pull him off, or away from the baby," Singh said. "The suspect just pushed him away and continued doing what he was doing."

A minute later, at 10:14 p.m., a pickup truck with three people in their 20s pulled up, facing Aguilar's truck. One of them called 911. A young man, who Singh hasn't identified, jumped out and ran to help Robinson.

"It was the shock of seeing what was going on, seeing this person with hands bloodied," said Singh, who was on the scene as the witnesses were interviewed. "At first they weren't sure how to react. You walk upon that scene and you see it and it's like, 'What are you doing?' It's like, "What the heck are you doing?' "

The two men wrestled with Aguilar, trying to get him to stop, trying to pull him away from the baby. But Aguilar, with the child in his arm, kept attacking the toddler, "punching, slapping, shaking," Singh said.

Robinson told reporters that "there was a total hollowness in his eyes," and Aguilar said he was beating "the demons" out of the boy.

At 10:17, Mike called 911 again.

At 10:19, the sheriff's helicopter that had been patrolling the area shined its spotlight on the scene, then landed in the cow pasture.

Officer Ramar jumped out, Singh said, and ran about 30 yards to the electrified fence that keeps the cows in and ordered the man to stop. By this time, Aguilar had the child on the ground and was stomping on him.

"Put your hands up. Step away from the baby," Ramar called out, according to Singh.

Instead, Singh said, Aguilar raised his middle finger and began to kick the toddler lying on the roadway.

At 10:20, Ramar aimed his gun and fired. Aguilar died at the scene. Two deputies rushed to the child and performed CPR, but the boy remained limp. He was pronounced dead at the local hospital.

At 10:30, Singh arrived. The night was cool and clear. The only lights came from the headlights of the cars that had stopped to help and the flashing reds and blues of police vehicles. It was still so dark, Singh couldn't even see the helicopter in the pasture.

But he saw the deputies who tried to revive the child, the police officer who shot the man, and the witnesses who tried to help. They all were consoling each other, he said.

"I know how they were feeling," he said. "It's like you wish you could have done more."

http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_9606469

[pawe]

I hope the devil is shoving a big pineapple up in that son of a bitch's ass right now!

[angelbelow]

good.

[ORION]

:depressed
:cry

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Dan Robinson, chief of the Crows Landing volunteer fire department, was driving home Saturday night with his wife and two grown children when their headlights shined on a man standing behind a parked pickup truck, which was in the next lane, facing oncoming traffic. At first, they thought maybe it was a hunter with a dead animal.

"As they slowed down, someone noticed it was an infant," Singh said. "He stopped, backed up and the dad got out."

It's unclear when the beating began, but the first 911 call came at just after 10:13 p.m. It was from someone named Mike, who may be Robinson's son, Singh said. He gave just a brief description before the cell phone went dead.

By then, Robinson had confronted Aguilar and "was trying to get him to stop, trying to pull him off, or away from the baby," Singh said. "The suspect just pushed him away and continued doing what he was doing."

A minute later, at 10:14 p.m., a pickup truck with three people in their 20s pulled up, facing Aguilar's truck. One of them called 911. A young man, who Singh hasn't identified, jumped out and ran to help Robinson.

"It was the shock of seeing what was going on, seeing this person with hands bloodied," said Singh, who was on the scene as the witnesses were interviewed. "At first they weren't sure how to react. You walk upon that scene and you see it and it's like, 'What are you doing?' It's like, "What the heck are you doing?' "

The two men wrestled with Aguilar, trying to get him to stop, trying to pull him away from the baby. But Aguilar, with the child in his arm, kept attacking the toddler, "punching, slapping, shaking," Singh said.

Cowards.

[Homeland Security]

Yet I still care not. What he did deserves torture (real torture, not solitary with some nice meals sprinkled in), instant death is the next best alternative. That's what he got. Good.
You're the kind of loyal American we like.

You might be interested to know an experiment we ran Monday morning. We placed the suspect's head in a vise and compressed it just enough until his eyes popped out. At that point, all his teeth were crushed, and his jaw has been pushed up into his skull just enough that it locks in place. We then released him to his cell.

The suspect has been offered some nutritive liquids through a straw, but he refuses. My theory is that the pain is so bad he just wants to die of thirst. We may force some liquids down his throat to make him suffer longer.

This is the kind of punishment we propose for animals like that man.

[Don Quixote]

I rather like this kind of punishment for the truly vile and heinous.

[Extra Stout]

I rather like this kind of punishment for the truly vile and heinous.
The correct answer would be vengeance is the Lord's, not yours, and that such practices dehumanize the people who do them.

If you really want to be fair and equitable about who deserves torture, God certainly can just add up the totality of your transgressions and deal with you accordingly.

This creep was killed in order to make him stop beating the child, not to exact vengeance.

[Don Quixote]

You're absolutely right -- we should make an effort to balance justice with mercy.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that the state ought not to exact punishment (or vengeance -- are they even distinct?) in the case of heinous crimes. That might lead to a real "dovishness" when it comes to dealing with crime & punishment. Does God truly want us to look the other way, or forgive violent offenders, when things like this are happening?

On the other hand, I'm sure he doesn't want a system like we see in Islam either, which is very retributive.

[bigzak25]

damn...

r.i.p. little one.

[Extra Stout]

You're absolutely right -- we should make an effort to balance justice with mercy.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that the state ought not to exact punishment (or vengeance -- are they even distinct?) in the case of heinous crimes. That might lead to a real "dovishness" when it comes to dealing with crime & punishment. Does God truly want us to look the other way, or forgive violent offenders, when things like this are happening?

On the other hand, I'm sure he doesn't want a system like we see in Islam either, which is very retributive.
Since my point was not that justice should be balanced with mercy, and I never claimed that the state should refrain from exacting punishment, I won't attempt to defend the strawman you built.

[Don Quixote]

No, I'm not attempting to strawmen your position. I'm trying to legitimately grapple with the twin concerns for justice and mercy. On the one hand, we need a certain measure of mercy in our system that recognizes the ability to grow morally, to genuinely repent, to atone for past transgressions. On the other, the state (and the church!) ought not merely look the other way when bad things happen. I'm more than open to the death penalty, but I'm not dogmatic either way regarding it.

What is your position?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Wow, this got deep.

We're all going to have differences on the appropriate punishment. The bigger problem I have is with a bunch of pussy ass Californians standing there and not doing shit about it.

You've got a group of at least 4 people and they stand and watch an infant get beat to death because 'they tried to pull the guy off the kid, but he pushed them off.'

Take his ass to the ground, start beating his ass, occupy him long enough for someone to pull the toddler away, etc.

Typical sorry ass left coast pacifistic pussies.

[Don Quixote]

I can't help it.

I'm all for punishing the crap out of these villains, but I do advocate a certain measure of mercy as well. It is more humane, and biblical, that way. As for exactly how to do this, I'm all ears.

And AHF, did you hook up with that broad?

[Extra Stout]

No, I'm not attempting to strawmen your position. I'm trying to legitimately grapple with the twin concerns for justice and mercy. On the one hand, we need a certain measure of mercy in our system that recognizes the ability to grow morally, to genuinely repent, to atone for past transgressions. On the other, the state (and the church!) ought not merely look the other way when bad things happen. I'm more than open to the death penalty, but I'm not dogmatic either way regarding it.

What is your position?
Pragmatically, capital punishment in this country makes little sense. In order to maintain a frequency of false conviction low enough that society will accept it, we keep an appeals process which incurs legal fees that exceed the cost of lifetime imprisonment. The duration between conviction and execution usually is so long that the deterrence of shortened lifespan to a criminal is discounted to nil. So it costs us more money and prevents zero additional crimes. The reason we keep it around, I think, is because citizens either are ignorant of those facts, or are more satisfied with the vengeance exacted in killing a murderer.

Now it is true that legal costs could be greatly reduced if we greatly streamlined the appeals process, to the point that society could save money through the execution of criminals. However, the trade-off would be that the state would kill many more innocent people, a consequence I do not find morally tenable.

The theology behind my position centers around the value of human life and the attitude of society towards it. To a Christian, human life is quadruply precious, since humans are given life from God, since humans are made in the image of God, since God in Jesus Christ was made into human likeness, and since Jesus Christ submitted to death in order to save human beings. The taking of human life therefore is a terrible tragedy, a miscarriage of the intent in creation, and a residue of the effects of the Fall. As this informs my ideology, I then hold that the state through its jurisprudence likewise should hold a high view of human life, evensofar as not to exact vengeance through killing except when in and of itself it is necessary to protect other human life. The narrative underlying this thread gives an example of this, although tragically the infant already had been murdered.

The state is granted civil authority to punish transgressions against civil law. It is just that if a person fails to abide by the laws of his society, that he therefore lose the privileges within that society as well, including his individual freedom. The state holds up its responsibility to its citizens by removing from among them those who pose a violent danger to it. But when the state holds that certain crimes are heinous enough to warrant execution as a matter of vengeance, it then holds up Law as a higher ideal than the human life Law is ostensibly intended to protect. Incarceration, isolation, and hard labor as punishment do not equal the taking of life by the criminal, but under the ideal state, that is not the point anyway.

[Extra Stout]

Wow, this got deep.

We're all going to have differences on the appropriate punishment. The bigger problem I have is with a bunch of pussy ass Californians standing there and not doing shit about it.

You've got a group of at least 4 people and they stand and watch an infant get beat to death because 'they tried to pull the guy off the kid, but he pushed them off.'

Take his ass to the ground, start beating his ass, occupy him long enough for someone to pull the toddler away, etc.

Typical sorry ass left coast pacifistic pussies.
I suspect in Texas it would have happened as you say. Interesting but unsubstantiable anecdote:

In the 1970's, in rough neighborhoods in New York, a woman could be raped in broad daylight in public, and bystanders would ignore her screams as they walked on by.

Since 9/11, New Yorkers respond more like the way you propose.

[BRHornet45]

good job from the police officer, but oh don't worry im sure the Democrats will be screaming for this officer to be fired and jailed for using his gun.

[Don Quixote]

If this had happened in New Orleans, and the dead guy were a member of a certain sensitive group, you're darn right the libs would be screaming for the cop's head.

[Don Quixote]

Pragmatically, capital punishment in this country makes little sense. In order to maintain a frequency of false conviction low enough that society will accept it, we keep an appeals process which incurs legal fees that exceed the cost of lifetime imprisonment. The duration between conviction and execution usually is so long that the deterrence of shortened lifespan to a criminal is discounted to nil. So it costs us more money and prevents zero additional crimes. The reason we keep it around, I think, is because citizens either are ignorant of those facts, or are more satisfied with the vengeance exacted in killing a murderer.

Now it is true that legal costs could be greatly reduced if we greatly streamlined the appeals process, to the point that society could save money through the execution of criminals. However, the trade-off would be that the state would kill many more innocent people, a consequence I do not find morally tenable.

The theology behind my position centers around the value of human life and the attitude of society towards it. To a Christian, human life is quadruply precious, since humans are given life from God, since humans are made in the image of God, since God in Jesus Christ was made into human likeness, and since Jesus Christ submitted to death in order to save human beings. The taking of human life therefore is a terrible tragedy, a miscarriage of the intent in creation, and a residue of the effects of the Fall. As this informs my ideology, I then hold that the state through its jurisprudence likewise should hold a high view of human life, evensofar as not to exact vengeance through killing except when in and of itself it is necessary to protect other human life. The narrative underlying this thread gives an example of this, although tragically the infant already had been murdered.

The state is granted civil authority to punish transgressions against civil law. It is just that if a person fails to abide by the laws of his society, that he therefore lose the privileges within that society as well, including his individual freedom. The state holds up its responsibility to its citizens by removing from among them those who pose a violent danger to it. But when the state holds that certain crimes are heinous enough to warrant execution as a matter of vengeance, it then holds up Law as a higher ideal than the human life Law is ostensibly intended to protect. Incarceration, isolation, and hard labor as punishment do not equal the taking of life by the criminal, but under the ideal state, that is not the point anyway.

I basically agree with your take on capital punishment. Your theological approach is robust and solid -- my only concern is that scripture yet permits the state to have it (OT), or accepts it as a reality (NT). So, I lean against it, but I'm not full-out 100% against it.

I'd prefer these vile offenders suffer good and long.

[BRHornet45]

If this had happened in New Orleans, and the dead guy were a member of a certain sensitive group, you're darn right the libs would be screaming for the cop's head.

LOL son at you poking fun at New Orleans. I am so highly offended.

son nice signature of Muhammad Hussein Obama

[Extra Stout]

I basically agree with your take on capital punishment. Your theological approach is robust and solid -- my only concern is that scripture yet permits the state to have it (OT), or accepts it as a reality (NT). So, I lean against it, but I'm not full-out 100% against it.

I'd prefer these vile offenders suffer good and long.
I don't think ancient Israel had quite the capacity for locking up violent offenders that the United States of America has. Much of OT law quite obviously applies to the reality of an ancient society, and is shared in common with contemporaries to ancient Israel.

The NT accepts the reality of the state as it is. Paul is very clear about respecting the existing civil authorities. Remember this is in the context of Jews expecting a Messiah who would overthrow the Romans and reestablish the Davidic kingdom, contrasted with Jesus' teaching that his kingdom is not of this world. The formula "Jesus is Lord; there is no other name under heaven by which men may be saved" was subversive enough in the Roman Empire.

It is theologically important to note that Christianity does not prescribe a social order for the entire society the way Islam does. Augustine came along later and superimposed a Christian social order over Biblical truth which was erroneous and frankly quite awful, though quite popular among medieval Western rulers looking to use Christianity as a means to power.

Nevertheless, in the American system where people theoretically have a say in their government, the application of Christian principles to political science is a worthy endeavor, so far as it actually deals with virtues, rather than power claims.

[Brutalis]

Did he at least suffer first like the child did?

[Don Quixote]

It is theologically important to note that Christianity does not prescribe a social order for the entire society the way Islam does. Augustine came along later and superimposed a Christian social order over Biblical truth which was erroneous and frankly quite awful, though quite popular among medieval Western rulers looking to use Christianity as a means to power.

Nevertheless, in the American system where people theoretically have a say in their government, the application of Christian principles to political science is a worthy endeavor, so far as it actually deals with virtues, rather than power claims.

Another good post. You are quite right that Christianity does not resemble Islam in its relation to the state. I don't quite share your dim view of Augustine, but I can admit that maybe he was, um, wrong on this count.

I think we agree that American Christians ought to have a say in how the country is governed, just like all Americans. I particularly like how we ought to speak from a position of wanting virtue, not merely power. And the virtuous thing, in this case, would be ... ?

[Don Quixote]

LOL son at you poking fun at New Orleans. I am so highly offended.

son nice signature of Muhammad Hussein Obama

I have room to talk -- I LIVE in New Orleans. Have since 2005.

And you like my Obama porn?

[BRHornet45]

I have room to talk -- I LIVE in New Orleans. Have since 2005.

And you like my Obama porn?


we should get drunk then son. although I gotta ask ... are you for Obama or is that picture mocking him? it's bad enough your a Spurs fan, hopefully your not a Democrat too.

[Don Quixote]

I post my Obama porn to appease, and show my sincerest regrets to, his supporters for ever having made fun of, mocked, or questioned the character or politics of their Anointed One, praise be unto him. I am repenting. Yes we can!

I am also in search of a way to show my contrition for ever having been a conservative Reaganite.

[Don Quixote]

I have a fair amount of Obama porn in my collections -- art or literature by his followers.

I saw a tee-shirt being worn by an older lady (Chinese place at Elysian Fields and Gentilly), with a big pic of a smiling Obama, PBUH, with Dr. King, Malcolm X, and Rosa Parks in the background. I wanted to take a pic of it but I didn't have my camera.

[BRHornet45]

I have a fair amount of Obama porn in my collections -- art or literature by his followers.

I saw a tee-shirt being worn by an older lady (Chinese place at Elysian Fields and Gentilly), with a big pic of a smiling Obama, PBUH, with Dr. King, Malcolm X, and Rosa Parks in the background. I wanted to take a pic of it but I didn't have my camera.


oh dear god son are you kidding me? that is hilarious lol

as far as politics goes. Libertarian is the way to go.

[Brutalis]

I have a fair amount of Obama porn in my collections -- art or literature by his followers.

I saw a tee-shirt being worn by an older lady (Chinese place at Elysian Fields and Gentilly), with a big pic of a smiling Obama, PBUH, with Dr. King, Malcolm X, and Rosa Parks in the background. I wanted to take a pic of it but I didn't have my camera.

Don't fret. You know some good ole southern boy will take him out before he even sits in the oval office.

Not that I condone it............:blah

[MateoNeygro]

i would have punch him in the heart and made it explode
:bang

[RandomGuy]

No one pointed out the guy was beating the "demons" out of the kid.

This suggests a few possibilities:

1) He was suffering from some form of meningitis (brain infection), and this commonly causes psychosis, paranoia and other violent behavior if untreated.

2) He was simply really that insane and it just got so bad that he went over the edge.

3) He was on some sort of drug bender that caused him to lose connection with reality.

He could have also simply been a violent, evil person, as has been suggested.

Such people usually aren't concerned with "demons", and that tends to indicate someone hearing voices.

Just thought I would throw that bit in there. Reality is not always so cut and dried.

[smeagol]

Cowards.

I was told by people who post on ST that you should not intervene in other peoples fights.

Interesting to hear them out regarding this horrific case . . . :bang

[smeagol]

I always wondered why people who are against the death penalty ususally state that it is inhumane.

On the other hand, they prefer that these criminals who murder, spend their life behind bars, which is pretty inhumane in itself.