Iowa

[johnsmith]

I just googled Iowa floods and found this, so it's not really a great point, but a good one. After watching the news last night on everything going on up there, I instantly thought of the differences between these storms (floods, tornado's) and Katrina. While the severity of the storms are a bit different, the basic outcome was one in the same. It's the response to the storms that are the major difference.

So my question is this, when will this be blamed on Bush?


The flooding in eastern Iowa has reached the point of catastrophe. Towns are overwhelmed, businesses destroyed, and crops are gone. A fifth of the corn and soybeans are gone. Fox News is calling it "Iowa's Katrina." Here is a gallery of aerial phtographs at the web site of the newspaper I used to deliver every afternoon, the Iowa City Press-Citizen.

The thing is, though, the people of eastern Iowa seem to be stepping up in the Iowa stubborn way. I have seen any number of man-on-the-street interviews, and nobody is complaining. They all seem to be working to solve their problem, which is not surprising because Iowans do not complain about tragedy. They complain about hot weather and dry weather, but not tragedy. And I have looked for reports of looting and come up empty so far.

Katrina has become a metaphor for many things beyond natural disaster, including governmental and individual incompetence (depending on your point of view). In Iowa there is a 500 year flood, but the people are not paralyzed, whining, or looting. There will be no massive relief effort from around the world, and nobody will step up to help Iowans except for other Iowans. Yet years from now, there will be no Iowans still in FEMA camps.

The difference is not in the severity of the flood, but in the people who confront the flood.

UPDATE (late Sunday afternoon): This post obviously touched a nerve. Oops. I certainly could have chosen my words more carefully. Sorry if I ruined Father's Day for any of you.

[101A]

It's Bush's fault.

"Years from now there will be no Iowans in FEMA camps.

Sure there will be. Volunteers in the camps in New Orleans.

[PixelPusher]

Are there thousands of Iowans trapped in a sports arena without food or water?

[RandomGuy]

I just googled Iowa floods and found this, so it's not really a great point, but a good one. After watching the news last night on everything going on up there, I instantly thought of the differences between these storms (floods, tornado's) and Katrina. While the severity of the storms are a bit different, the basic outcome was one in the same. It's the response to the storms that are the major difference.

So my question is this, when will this be blamed on Bush?

It depends on the federal response. I don't think a horse judge is in charge of FEMA anymore... :lol

One of the major differences between this and Katrina is that this kind of flooding was seen in '93, and many homes and businesses destroyed then were never rebuilt. Flooding around the mississipi is also a bit more periodic, expected, and controlled.

Another difference is that a major hurricane didn't flatten a huge area and overwhelm the state.

I just don't see much in the way of valid comparisons here.

What is your point?

[clambake]

why would anyone go directly to Bush's rescue when there is no blame to be defended from?

[Mike D.Brown]

Don't blame me.

[Ignignokt]

It depends on the federal response. I don't think a horse judge is in charge of FEMA anymore... :lol

One of the major differences between this and Katrina is that this kind of flooding was seen in '93, and many homes and businesses destroyed then were never rebuilt. Flooding around the mississipi is also a bit more periodic, expected, and controlled.

Another difference is that a major hurricane didn't flatten a huge area and overwhelm the state.
I just don't see much in the way of valid comparisons here.

What is your point?


allready a hole in your propaganda talking points.

[101A]

It depends on the federal response. I don't think a horse judge is in charge of FEMA anymore... :lol

One of the major differences between this and Katrina is that this kind of flooding was seen in '93, and many homes and businesses destroyed then were never rebuilt. Flooding around the mississipi is also a bit more periodic, expected, and controlled.

Another difference is that a major hurricane didn't flatten a huge area and overwhelm the state.

I just don't see much in the way of valid comparisons here.

What is your point?

That's a GREAT point! I never heard ANY warnings about New Orleans being beneath sea level, and in grave danger if there were to be a major hurricane hit it before Katrina. Complete and utter surprise. NO one could have predicted that!

[JoeChalupa]

I'm sure we've all learned from Katrina so any natural disasters will be handled differently based on the situation.

[Extra Stout]

That's a GREAT point! I never heard ANY warnings about New Orleans being beneath sea level, and in grave danger if there were to be a major hurricane hit it before Katrina. Complete and utter surprise. NO one could have predicted that!

Gone With the Water (http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0410/feature5/)

National Geographic Magazine, October 2004

By Joel K. Bourne, Jr.
Photographs by Robert Caputo and Tyrone Turner



The Louisiana bayou, hardest working marsh in America, is in big trouble—with dire consequences for residents, the nearby city of New Orleans, and seafood lovers everywhere.



It was a broiling August afternoon in New Orleans, Louisiana, the Big Easy, the City That Care Forgot. Those who ventured outside moved as if they were swimming in tupelo honey. Those inside paid silent homage to the man who invented air-conditioning as they watched TV "storm teams" warn of a hurricane in the Gulf of Mexico. Nothing surprising there: Hurricanes in August are as much a part of life in this town as hangovers on Ash Wednesday.

But the next day the storm gathered steam and drew a bead on the city. As the whirling maelstrom approached the coast, more than a million people evacuated to higher ground. Some 200,000 remained, however—the car-less, the homeless, the aged and infirm, and those die-hard New Orleanians who look for any excuse to throw a party.

The storm hit Breton Sound with the fury of a nuclear warhead, pushing a deadly storm surge into Lake Pontchartrain. The water crept to the top of the massive berm that holds back the lake and then spilled over. Nearly 80 percent of New Orleans lies below sea level—more than eight feet below in places—so the water poured in. A liquid brown wall washed over the brick ranch homes of Gentilly, over the clapboard houses of the Ninth Ward, over the white-columned porches of the Garden District, until it raced through the bars and strip joints on Bourbon Street like the pale rider of the Apocalypse. As it reached 25 feet (eight meters) over parts of the city, people climbed onto roofs to escape it.

Thousands drowned in the murky brew that was soon contaminated by sewage and industrial waste. Thousands more who survived the flood later perished from dehydration and disease as they waited to be rescued. It took two months to pump the city dry, and by then the Big Easy was buried under a blanket of putrid sediment, a million people were homeless, and 50,000 were dead. It was the worst natural disaster in the history of the United States.

[Extra Stout]

Drowning New Orleans; October 2001; Scientific American Magazine; by Mark Fischetti; 10 Page(s)

The boxes are stacked eight feet high and line the walls of the large, windowless room. Inside them are new body bags, 10,000 in all. If a big, slow-moving hurricane crossed the Gulf of Mexico on the right track, it would drive a sea surge that would drown New Orleans under 20 feet of water. "As the water recedes," says Walter Maestri, a local emergency management director, "we expect to find a lot of dead bodies."

New Orleans is a disaster waiting to happen. The city lies below sea level, in a bowl bordered by levees that fend off Lake Pontchartrain to the north and the Mississippi River to the south and west. And because of a damning confluence of factors, the city is sinking further, putting it at increasing flood risk after even minor storms. The low-lying Mississippi Delta, which buffers the city from the gulf, is also rapidly disappearing. A year from now another 25 to 30 square miles of delta marsh-an area the size of Manhattan-will have vanished. An acre disappears every 24 minutes. Each loss gives a storm surge a clearer path to wash over the delta and pour into the bowl, trapping one million people inside and another million in surrounding communities. Extensive evacuation would be impossible because the surging water would cut off the few escape routes. Scientists at Louisiana State University (L.S.U.), who have modeled hundreds of possible storm tracks on advanced computers, predict that more than 100,000 people could die. The body bags wouldn't go very far.

[Extra Stout]

Speaking of disaster predictions, records for flood damage set by Katrina in New Orleans will be approached or broken by the inevitable next big flood in west St. Louis County, Missouri in the next 10 to 20 years.

[Don Quixote]

Nowhere near that many of us died in Katrina. 100,000 people my butt. But, yes, we have been aware of the levee issue for many years now. But it's not like we're the only city that depends upon engineering to exist -- we're (re)learning that now in Iowa.

[Don Quixote]

Speaking of disaster predictions, records for flood damage set by Katrina in New Orleans will be approached or broken by the inevitable next big flood in west St. Louis County, Missouri in the next 10 to 20 years.

And they're due for another big quake, too. The last one made the Mississippi flow backward and caused the river to change course. And it resulted in minor quirks where a small bit of Tennessee is on the west bank, a teensy bit of Kentucky is on the east bank, etc.

[johnsmith]

My biggest issue with all of this (and the Bush thing was a joke) is the media coverage of all of it. It's not a "sexy hurricane", there are no racial issues to be looked at, and the people of Iowa, rather then EXPECTING help from the federal government, are currently taking mother natures best punch and telling the bitch to fuck off while they fix their own problems.

So where's the media? That's right, they only extensively cover "shock value, the worlds coming to an end, it's a republicans fault" kind of stuff.

[Don Quixote]

Obama will save us!!!

[Ignignokt]

Are there thousands of Iowans trapped in a sports arena without food or water?

THank god Iowans don't have democrat mayors and Liberal governors to shit to tell iowans to shit that again.

[RandomGuy]

That's a GREAT point! I never heard ANY warnings about New Orleans being beneath sea level, and in grave danger if there were to be a major hurricane hit it before Katrina. Complete and utter surprise. NO one could have predicted that!

That's not what I meant and you know it. Floods and the Mississipi are a bit more frequent than Cat 5 hurricane strikes.

I fully recognize that there were such warnings in NO.

[Wild Cobra]

Nowhere near that many of us died in Katrina. 100,000 people my butt. But, yes, we have been aware of the levee issue for many years now. But it's not like we're the only city that depends upon engineering to exist -- we're (re)learning that now in Iowa.

That was a 2001 article predicting what could happen. Not what would or did.

I wonder what the factors for Iowa were.

Did community infrastructure like bridges limit the natural; flood widt of streams and rivers?

Did people build in know flood plains without planning for such things?

I can come up with more. Like I said during Katrina, I have little sympathy for people who choose to put themselves in harms way.

[Extra Stout]

That's not what I meant and you know it. Floods and the Mississipi are a bit more frequent than Cat 5 hurricane strikes.

I fully recognize that there were such warnings in NO.
The glancing blow New Orleans received was Cat 3 at the most.

[Wild Cobra]

My biggest issue with all of this (and the Bush thing was a joke) is the media coverage of all of it. It's not a "sexy hurricane", there are no racial issues to be looked at, and the people of Iowa, rather then EXPECTING help from the federal government, are currently taking mother natures best punch and telling the bitch to fuck off while they fix their own problems.

So where's the media? That's right, they only extensively cover "shock value, the worlds coming to an end, it's a republicans fault" kind of stuff.

I'd say that's because the people are not asking for increased government. They are bailing themselves out instead of acting like victims.

[MannyIsGod]

The glancing blow New Orleans received was Cat 3 at the most.

Wrong. The wind speed may have been at CAT 3 levels but the storm surge (the most destructive part of Katrina) was not only at CAT 5 levels but at record CAT 5 levels.

[Don Quixote]

That is correct. The Times-Picayune that Monday morning read, "New Orleans dodges a bullet."

Little did they know that the levees were failing!

[Wild Cobra]

The glancing blow New Orleans received was Cat 3 at the most.

Yep, it was larger before hitting New Orleans, but a Catagory 3 when it hit.

[MannyIsGod]

Its a LOT easier to handle this type of flooding than it is to handle a CAT 5 hurricane barreling down on your city. This is much much much much slower. It really should not be compared in the least.

[1369]

Sean Penn needs to get in his rowboat and head up that way.

On second thought, he'd only be getting in the way of folks who are actually doing something to save their town.

[Extra Stout]

Wrong. The wind speed may have been at CAT 3 levels but the storm surge (the most destructive part of Katrina) was not only at CAT 5 levels but at record CAT 5 levels.
Mississippi got the record storm surge. New Orleans saw no more than 11 feet.

[Extra Stout]

People quickly forget that Hurricane Katrina did not hit New Orleans. It hit the Mississippi coast. Katrina got a glancing blow and the levees failed anyway.

But that can happen when a contractor is supposed to drill steel pilings 30 feet into the ground, but only drills them 6 feet deep to boost his profits.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Wrong. The wind speed may have been at CAT 3 levels but the storm surge (the most destructive part of Katrina) was not only at CAT 5 levels but at record CAT 5 levels.
no. you're wrong. it was a 5 in the gulf. 3 when it hit. look it up.

[Don Quixote]

Only parts of Lakeview, New Orleans East, and the Lower 9 got more than a couple of feet. It was St. Bernard and Plaquemines that got into the double-digits.

[Extra Stout]

no. you're wrong. it was a 5 in the gulf. 3 when it hit. look it up.
Manny's right that it was a Cat 5 storm surge, but wrong in thinking that's what New Orleans saw.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Manny's right that it was a Cat 5 storm surge, but wrong in thinking that's what New Orleans saw.it just amazes me that he's that all knowing about everything. :rolleyes

[1369]

But that can happen when a contractor is supposed to drill steel pilings 30 feet into the ground, but only drills them 6 feet deep to boost his profits.

Where was that found out to have existed?

If true, there are a few people who need to be in jail.

[Extra Stout]

That is correct. The Times-Picayune that Monday morning read, "New Orleans dodges a bullet."

Little did they know that the levees were failing!

"New Orleans dodges a bullet by jumping into a vat of hot acid."

[Don Quixote]

Well ... he does claim to be God. Of course, I've never heard him answer any of my prayers, or perform miracles.

[Extra Stout]

it just amazes me that he's that all knowing about everything. :rolleyes
It's not that I'm all-knowing; it's just that you're ignorant.

[Don Quixote]

No ... he's referring to Manuel-es-Dios.

[Wild Cobra]

Where was that found out to have existed?

If true, there are a few people who need to be in jail.
How often have you seen the truth to trump sensationalism in the media?

Besides. Liberals control the media. The govorner never authorized emergency aid, but it's president Bush's fault.

Why speak the truth when Bush Bashing sells?

[Don Quixote]

You non-locals don't know the half of it.

Louisiana is arguably the most corrupt, most ineptly-governed, welfare-dependent state in the union. And New Orleans competes with Chicago for that honor with cities, although we don't really have unions here.

[Extra Stout]

The pilings issue was covered up. You can still find allusions to it in some reports that gloss over the degree of corruption.

MIT study:

At one point along the 17th Street Canal and at two points along the London Avenue Canal, the levees were not overtopped but failed. The levees in this area are about 14 feet, but the water inside the canals was only at 8.5 feet. The canals were backed up with water from the storm surge coming from Lake Pontchartrain. The pumps in the canals were unable to pump the water out because the pumps were located below sea level in the section of the canal in the interior of the city, not near the lake. The levees along both canals are concrete I-walls atop earthen levees. The concrete walls were actually pushed aside by the water pressure building up inside the canals. The steel pilings driven into the soil were too shallow, and the soil foundations in which the concrete walls were anchored in were poor, too soft, and permeable. Water was able to seep through and undermine the foundations and wedge the wall from its foundations, causing the whole wall to be pushed over and water to enter the city. The canals, which are supposed to pump water out of the city, actually caused much of New Orleans to flood by letting water into the city. The breaches at the 17th St. Canal and London Avenue Canal were caused by engineering failures. The levees were built on top of poor soil and sand, the pilings were not deep enough, and the pumping system was designed poorly.

[Wild Cobra]

You non-locals don't know the half of it.

Louisiana is arguably the most corrupt, most ineptly-governed, welfare-dependent state in the union. And New Orleans competes with Chicago for that honor with cities, although we don't really have unions here.
I heard a little about that, including the intentional underbuilding of the levies to save money, lining the pockets of the contractors and politicians.

[Wild Cobra]

You non-locals don't know the half of it.

Louisiana is arguably the most corrupt, most ineptly-governed, welfare-dependent state in the union. And New Orleans competes with Chicago for that honor with cities, although we don't really have unions here.
From Govorner Nagen to President Obama.

Now we can have the entire nation as inept as Louisiana!

[Don Quixote]

Shoot, read the T-P sometime (our local paper, NOLA.com). Every dang day there's a new scandal. (e.g., William "Cold Cash" Jefferson and his family, Derrick Shepherd, "Chocolate City" Nagin, the Landrieus (our Kennedys)). Not a Republican in the bunch.

[Extra Stout]

The most expensive part of constructing those levees is drilling the piles deep into that marshy ground below sea level. The contractor was able to pocket most of his bid for the project by drilling so shallow.

What I can't remember is whether the sections of levees that failed were managed by the Army Corps or by one of the local levee boards. The only ways such catastrophic fraud could have been missed are complicity or total incompetence, both of which are Louisiana distinctives.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

It's not that I'm all-knowing; it's just that you're ignorant.i wasn't referring to you jackass. ignorance is a choice.

[1369]

The pilings issue was covered up. You can still find allusions to it in some reports that gloss over the degree of corruption.

MIT study:

At one point along the 17th Street Canal and at two points along the London Avenue Canal, the levees were not overtopped but failed. The levees in this area are about 14 feet, but the water inside the canals was only at 8.5 feet. The canals were backed up with water from the storm surge coming from Lake Pontchartrain. The pumps in the canals were unable to pump the water out because the pumps were located below sea level in the section of the canal in the interior of the city, not near the lake. The levees along both canals are concrete I-walls atop earthen levees. The concrete walls were actually pushed aside by the water pressure building up inside the canals. The steel pilings driven into the soil were too shallow, and the soil foundations in which the concrete walls were anchored in were poor, too soft, and permeable. Water was able to seep through and undermine the foundations and wedge the wall from its foundations, causing the whole wall to be pushed over and water to enter the city. The canals, which are supposed to pump water out of the city, actually caused much of New Orleans to flood by letting water into the city. The breaches at the 17th St. Canal and London Avenue Canal were caused by engineering failures. The levees were built on top of poor soil and sand, the pilings were not deep enough, and the pumping system was designed poorly.

Sounds like crappy design (or a design that didn't go far enough to account for all the water that actually accumulated) and not an outright scam.

And with the Corps overseeing that system and its installation, the crappy design wouldn't surprise me.

[Don Quixote]

From Govorner Nagen to President Obama.

Now we can have the entire nation as inept as Louisiana!

At least I'm used to it.

Jesse Jackson still gets the projects in an uproar when he comes.

[Extra Stout]

Sounds like crappy design (or a design that didn't go far enough to account for all the water that actually accumulated) and not an outright scam.

And with the Corps overseeing that system and its installation, the crappy design wouldn't surprise me.
The water was still 6 feet below the top of at least one levee section that failed. You can't just chalk that up to bad design.

[1369]

The water was still 6 feet below the top of at least one levee section that failed. You can't just chalk that up to bad design.

Sure you can.

Did the water "percolate" under the structure and cause it to weaken and fail? Was the spacing between pilings too far apart that is caused a weak point between piling spans? Was the piling not engineered deep enough (And why they wouldn't drive them to refusal would really concern me) and allowed it to be "undercut"?

I'm not saying that there wasn't corruption that caused the system to fail, but it also could be that they just plain fucked up the engineering.

Or, being that it is the government doing this, they had a set budget and designed the system to fit the budget.

[MannyIsGod]

it just amazes me that he's that all knowing about everything. :rolleyes

Its not my fault I'm smarter than you.

[johnsmith]

And with the Corps overseeing that system and its installation, the crappy design wouldn't surprise me.

:toast

[MannyIsGod]

i wasn't referring to you jackass. ignorance is a choice.

:lol

The irony.

[MannyIsGod]

ES,

You're right in that Mississippi's storm surge is more accurately known to be of record levels and its not arguable that it was higher than what NO saw, NO did see higher storm surge than is associated with a CAT 3 storm. Catagory 3 storm surge is usually around 10 feet, and there were measurements of 14 feet+ storm surge which is considered solid for a CAT 4 storm.

I suspect that there was higher storm surge than that especially when you take into account of the landscape mechanics and how the water is funneled into certain areas but either way NO was always a disaster (still is) waiting to happen.

Sad really.

[MannyIsGod]

Anyway, anyone trying to make a comparison between Mississippi floods and the effects of a CAT 5 hurricane is just making a foolish comparison. River floods of this nature happen over the course of weeks, where as Hurricane damage comes over the course of hours. The difference in logistics for management and preparation should be self evident simply given that fact.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

:lol

The irony.
so is your screen name with your avatar. i'm so confused now. especially with the whole evolution thing. if that's the case, then why haven't you evolved.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Its not my fault I'm smarter than you.in all areas, but relationships. :ihit

[MannyIsGod]

in all areas, but relationships. :ihit

Oh snap!

[ChumpDumper]

Apples and watermelons.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Oh snap!
a cold snap, if you will

[MannyIsGod]

You should have quit while you were ahead.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

bigalee bigalee.

[MannyIsGod]

Also, back to the flooding, I think although I'm not sure, that the 1993 floods were far worse than the current flooding hiting these regions.

[xrayzebra]

Also, back to the flooding, I think although I'm not sure, that the 1993 floods were far worse than the current flooding hiting these regions.

Manny agree that river flooding, in many cases, does occur over a period of days. Although it can happen at a very rapid pace. BUT in cases of hurricanes, people are warned for sometime days in advance on is headed in their direction and to get prepared. A good portion of the people in NO did not prepared, the local government did not prepare and the state government did not prepare. But the feds drew all the heat and blame. At least in Iowa the people there have been preparing and taking care of their own. Not sitting around crying about no one is there to take care of them.