MVP? More like MIA

[lefty]

http://www.latimes.com/la-sp-plaschke18-2008jun18,0,5112683.column

MVP? More like MIA
Kobe Bryant made just seven of 22 mostly wild shots. He had just one assist. He had four turnovers. The league MVP was unable to carry a team that needed carrying.
June 18, 2008

BOSTON — In the end, the chant became fact, the screaming pleas of throaty New Englanders transposed into a sinking reality for silent Angelenos.

In the end, the crazy dream that the Lakers could quickly turn dysfunction into destiny ended when the Boston Celtics slowly turned them into chowder.


L.A. Beat.

And how.

An NBA Finals that began with the Lakers spraying wild streams of hope across the Southland ended Tuesday with those same Lakers in a small and embarrassed puddle.

Which the Celtics splashed through. Again and again. Loudly and messily and triumphantly in a 39-point victory that gave them their record 17th NBA championship.

The final score in Game 6 was Celtics 131, Lakers 92.

The final count in Finals games was Celtics 4, Lakers 2.

The final scene was green and white confetti blanketing brown parquet, small tears blanketing giant cheeks, fans tumbling over barricades onto the floor as the Lakers tried to escape.

"Man, man, man," said the Celtics' Kevin Garnett, saying it all.

The final cheers were heartfelt songs filled with the relief of fans who have waited 22 years since the Celtics' last title.

But the final chants were more compelling, because they were directed at you-know-who.

In his best chance at establishing his legacy as a championship player without Shaquille O'Neal, Kobe Bryant was seemingly burdened by something even heavier.

He made just seven of 22 mostly wild shots. He had just one assist. He had four turnovers.

The league MVP was

AWFUL, unable to break through even the most basic of one-on-one Celtic defenses, unable to carry a team that needed carrying.

In the six games of the series, he shot poorly, led inconsistently, had only one really dramatic moment, and that was on defense.

And, so, in voices that seemingly shook the TD Banknorth Garden, with Bryant standing at the foul line in the third quarter, here came those chants.

"You're . . . not . . . Jordan!" the fans sang, referring to Michael Jordan.

No, clearly, at this point he is not.

When Bryant began the fourth quarter on the bench with his team trailing by 29 points, they chanted again.

"Where . . . is . . . Kobe?" they sang even louder.


Today even the most diehard Bryant fans must be asking themselves the same thing, in wondering how far he can lead a team by himself.

"Once you taste defeat, that makes you a little tougher," said Bryant.

Other Lakers were just as deserving of the jeers.

Lamar Odom had two baskets and three turnovers and not one offensive rebound for a team that combined for a stunningly low two.

Pau Gasol had four baskets and five turnovers and the indignity of being forced into a jump ball by a guy -- Garnett -- using just one hand at the time.

"I thought we played on our heels from the very get-go," said Coach Phil Jackson. "They overran us. . . . We never met that energy all night tonight."

Before the game, if the Lakers were to lose, I was considering writing a column extolling this season's amazing turnaround and applauding them for an inspiring effort that ended at the feet of a clearly better team.

Before the game, if the Lakers were to lose, I was reminding everyone how their best inside player was in street clothes, and how Andrew Bynum's return next season should make them NBA favorites.

But after what happened in the game, how could any of us believe any of that?

They need more than Bynum. They need toughness in the middle. They needed maturity everywhere.

"We were surprised we were here, and we're glad that we had an opportunity," Jackson said. "But whenever you get this opportunity, you don't want to let it slip away, and we did."

How bad did it slip?

In the last seven minutes of the second quarter, the Celtics outscored the Lakers, 26-6, with a lineup that included three Celtic subs.

How bad did it look?

Garnett stalked around the court waving and chanting, a pep rally celebration -- with 5:07 left in the game.

The fans began chanting, "Nah-nah-nah-nah . . . goodbye" -- with 4:53 left.

Paul Pierce began doing a disco dance on the Celtic bench -- with 2:21 left.

Speaking of bad, yeah, the guy who began the series being carried off the floor and placed into a wheelchair was the Series MVP, an award that Pierce should place next to his Oscar.

"This is unreal," said Pierce in his acceptance speech.

I agree. I picked the Lakers to win in five games. The Lakers could not have won this series if it had gone 25 games.

I discounted that the Celtics' three veteran stars -- two of them acquired last summer -- would not be denied the championship that had thus far eluded them.

I didn't give them enough credit, and I gave some of the untested Lakers way too much credit.

So, too, apparently, did Jackson, who took the unusual step of threatening roster moves even before the cheering stopped.

"We have to get some players if we're going to come back and repeat, to have that kind of aggressiveness that we need," he said.

So when they return next fall, some of the Lakers might be new.

After this awful farewell, it is hoped that some of them will also be improved.

[xtremesteven33]

"youre not jordan"


haha classic.

Degrading Bryant and hailing Jordan all in one chant....

[PM5K]

Can anyone say with a straight face that Jordan wouldn't have been able to lead this Lakers team to a Championship?

[The Franchise]

Can anyone say with a straight face that Jordan wouldn't have been able to lead this Lakers team to a Championship?
Delusional Lakers Fans.

[PM5K]

In all honesty though, I doubt Odom would still be on a Jordan lead team, he's such a huge fucking under achiever that Jordan would have either brought out the best in him, or he'd be gone....

[xtremesteven33]

In all honesty though, I doubt Odom would still be on a Jordan lead team, he's such a huge fucking under achiever that Jordan would have either brought out the best in him, or he'd be gone....


Bryant=Pippen

[DazedAndConfused]

Can anyone say with a straight face that Jordan wouldn't have been able to lead this Lakers team to a Championship?

Against this Celtic team? I highly doubt Jordan makes a difference. If Lebron and Kobe couldn't get to the rim against this team what makes you think Jordan would? Jordan alone could not compensate for the serious defensive flaws on this Laker team.

You don't beat the Celtics with perimeter players. You need a dominant post presence to help space the floor and get them out of their pseudo zone defense.

[baseline bum]

Against this Celtic team? I highly doubt Jordan makes a difference. If Lebron and Kobe couldn't get to the rim against this team what makes you think Jordan would? Jordan alone could not compensate for the serious defensive flaws on this Laker team.

You don't beat the Celtics with perimeter players. You need a dominant post presence to help space the floor and get them out of their pseudo zone defense.

Because no one ever stopped Jordan from getting to the rim. Comparing Kobe Bryant to Jordan is like comparing Garnett to Wilt.

[DazedAndConfused]

If you seriously think swapping MJ with KB would have resulted in the Lakers winning against the Celtics you are a moron. Or a Kobe hater. Probably both.

[dbreiden83080]

Against this Celtic team? I highly doubt Jordan makes a difference. If Lebron and Kobe couldn't get to the rim against this team what makes you think Jordan would? Jordan alone could not compensate for the serious defensive flaws on this Laker team.

You don't beat the Celtics with perimeter players. You need a dominant post presence to help space the floor and get them out of their pseudo zone defense.

Dude, i am not going to say they would have been a lock to win it with MJ but they sure as hell would have had a better shot at it. You know damn well that series is 2-2 with MJ. Game 4 with 5 min to play was begging Kobe to take it over and he could not do it. MJ takes that game over without a doubt he does and it is all tied up at 2 games a piece. Lebron at times does not look to get to the rim, nobody stops him from getting there when he makes up his mind that is where he is going. Jordan faced and beat better overall teams with better D's than the Celtics. Those Knick teams in the 90's for example especially the early 90's were deep physical, nasty defensive squads and he was dominant.

[ElNono]

If you seriously think swapping MJ with KB would have resulted in the Lakers winning against the Celtics you are a moron. Or a Kobe hater. Probably both.

I actually appreciate Kobe, and I'm not a moron, and I think Jordan would have taken this team to the championship. The difference is that MJ would have drilled Odom head until he either became the next Pippen, or got traded for a Marion or somebody that could help him out. Same thing with Gasol.
Perhaps one of the biggest differences between MJ and Kobe is in the leadership department. And by leadership I don't mean who's scoring the most points. MJ would lit up a fire under ANYBODY that he didn't think was helping the team, win or lose, and would let the world know about it.
Haven't seen anything of that from Kobe, except when he lit up Bynum and asked to be traded.

[TDMVPDPOY]

man that play for garnett over pau, was clearly a travel if you look at his feet touching the groud already b4 he even puts up the shot

[dbreiden83080]

If you seriously think swapping MJ with KB would have resulted in the Lakers winning against the Celtics you are a moron. Or a Kobe hater. Probably both.

Kobe was mediocre as all hell in this series. MJ dominated against better teams, get over it.

[baseline bum]

If you seriously think swapping MJ with KB would have resulted in the Lakers winning against the Celtics you are a moron. Or a Kobe hater. Probably both.

Of course Jordan would have murdered the Celtics with that team around him. He singlehandedly won game 6 of the 98 Finals, on the road, against a Jazz team that would absolutely mop the floor with this Celtics team. Kobe Bryant has no fucking excuse now. He has his supporting cast, and it's one of the deepest and most talented in the league. Kobe isn't half the player Jordan was.

[ManuTim_best of Fwiendz]

Bryant needs another Batman.

[dbreiden83080]

Of course Jordan would have murdered the Celtics with that team around him. He singlehandedly won game 6 of the 98 Finals, on the road, against a Jazz team that would absolutely mop the floor with this Celtics team. Kobe Bryant has no fucking excuse now. He has his supporting cast, and it's one of the deepest and most talented in the league. Kobe isn't half the player Jordan was.

Yes i am finding it funny that now that the Lakers got handled by the Celtics the fans went from saying, Lakers in 5 or 6 we are too deep and talented for them, too Kobe does not have enough help. Kobe is playing with not one but two all star level big men. An experienced, still in his prime and very clutch PG. A young deep bench, that is versatile and oh yeah his head coach is one of the best of all time. This Laker team had enough to win it all this year. Kobe did not play well enough, to get them to the promise land. He was mediocre in too many of these games.

[m33p0]

Against this Celtic team? I highly doubt Jordan makes a difference. If Lebron and Kobe couldn't get to the rim against this team what makes you think Jordan would? Jordan alone could not compensate for the serious defensive flaws on this Laker team.

You don't beat the Celtics with perimeter players. You need a dominant post presence to help space the floor and get them out of their pseudo zone defense.
jordan got to the rim frequently in an era of handchecks and lovetaps. and speaking of dominant post presence, jordan was one of the best post up guards in the history of the league. or did you not know this?

[dbreiden83080]

jordan got to the rim frequently in an era of handchecks and lovetaps. and speaking of dominant post presence, jordan was one of the best post up guards in the history of the league. or did you not know this?

The comparison is not even close. Jordan dropped like 40 on the Jazz in the finals with a fever. Kobe, got worked in this series and he has no excuse, he is a great player, but MJ he is not.

[ManuTim_best of Fwiendz]

The comparison is not even close. Jordan dropped like 40 on the Jazz in the finals with a fever. Kobe, got worked in this series and he has no excuse, he is a great player, but MJ he is not.

Kobe is really one of those sad tragedies, where he thinks he has "it" to be the alpha dog or 'the man' .....when in actuality he was meant to be a Pippen all along...

[O-Factor]

If you seriously think swapping MJ with KB would have resulted in the Lakers winning against the Celtics you are a moron. Or a Kobe hater. Probably both.

To say that the same result would of ensued had Jordan been on this team is to say that Kobe=Jordan....

Which is, as we all have known for some time now, not true.........Moron.

Did you even ever see Jordan play?

[Lake_show]

Against this Celtic team? I highly doubt Jordan makes a difference. If Lebron and Kobe couldn't get to the rim against this team what makes you think Jordan would? Jordan alone could not compensate for the serious defensive flaws on this Laker team.

You don't beat the Celtics with perimeter players. You need a dominant post presence to help space the floor and get them out of their pseudo zone defense.

Right, it's amazing to see how many Spur fans care about Kobe.

Michael Jordan
Scottie Pippen
Toni Kukoc
Steve Kerr
Ron Harper
Dennis Rodman
Luc Longley

Give me a break.

[baseline bum]

Props to Laker fans blind enough to stand by Kobe after he Dirked his second Finals in a row.

[DazedAndConfused]

The revisionist history going on here is laughable. It sounds like 99% of you did not even watch Jordan in the 80's and 90's and all you know of him is the highlights you see on TV.

Jordan faced a very similar defense to the Celtics in the 80's against the Pistons. He tried to do it all by himself and failed miserably. I mean miserably. So much so that people wrote him off as a player incapable of leading a team to a championship, much like the criticisms of Kobe now. Maybe a Jordan in his prime shoots a bit higher FG%, maybe he stops Pierce a couple more times, but he doesn't change this outcome one iota. Celtics are still winning and it has far more to do with the other Laker role players than it does anything else.



The Pistons, with their punishing, physical play, established a plan for playing against Jordan, dubbed "The Jordan Rules" by Pistons coach Chuck Daly. The Jordan rules involved double- and triple-teaming him every time he touched the ball, preventing him from going to the baseline, hammering him when he drove to the basket, forcing him to the center where help defense could arrive and making him rely on his inexperienced teammates.

[m33p0]

Right, it's amazing to see how many Spur fans care about Kobe.

Michael Jordan
Scottie Pippen
Toni Kukoc
Steve Kerr
Ron Harper
Dennis Rodman
Luc Longley

Give me a break.
it's amazing to see fakerfans think that spurs fans care about kobe.

[DazedAndConfused]

Really it's fun owning you little Kobe haters. You're so predictable.

[baseline bum]

The revisionist history going on here is laughable. It sounds like 99% of you did not even watch Jordan in the 80's and 90's and all you know of him is the highlights you see on TV.

Jordan faced a very similar defense to the Celtics in the 80's against the Pistons. He tried to do it all by himself and failed miserably. I mean miserably. So much so that people wrote him off as a player incapable of leading a team to a championship, much like the criticisms of Kobe now. Maybe a Jordan in his prime shoots a bit higher FG%, maybe he stops Pierce a couple more times, but he doesn't change this outcome one iota. Celtics are still winning and it has far more to do with the other Laker role players than it does anything else.

You mean like the series Jordan averaged 32 ppg in 1990, and took Detroit to 7, while having two games in the 40s? Or when he put up 30 a game in 89? His worst series against Detroit was 88, when he dropped 27 points and 9 boards a game.

LMAO @ your dumb ass trying to compare the 08 Celtics to the Bad Boys.

[san antonio spurs]

You mean like the series Jordan averaged 32 ppg in 1990, and took Detroit to 7, while having two games in the 40s? Or when he put up 30 a game in 89? His worst series against Detroit was 88, when he dropped 27 points and 9 boards a game.

LMAO @ your dumb ass trying to compare the 08 Celtics to the Bad Boys.

Not only that but Jordan wasn't the veteran that Kobe is now.

[DazedAndConfused]

You clearly did not watch Jordan in the 80's so this discussion ends here. Learn some NBA history, yes it's true the NBA existed before the Spurs and Tim Duncan.

And yes the Celtics are one of the best defensive teams this league has seen, even more so with the addition of zone defenses. Statistically they are the best in the last 25 years.

[DazedAndConfused]

Not only that but Jordan wasn't the veteran that Kobe is now.

Yup he was just NBA MVP and NBA defensive player of the year.

[O-Factor]

Not only that but Jordan wasn't the veteran that Kobe is now.

AND he showed more heart and no quit.

[DazedAndConfused]

The bottomline is you need a TEAM to beat the Celtics. One player is not going to do it all by his lonesome, not even the greatest to ever lace em up.

[PM5K]

LMAO @ your dumb ass trying to compare the 08 Celtics to the Bad Boys.


Yup, he totally lost the argument when he said that...

[san antonio spurs]

The bottomline is you need a TEAM to beat the Celtics. One player is not going to do it all by his lonesome, not even the greatest to ever lace em up.
I thought u had a team? And a pretty good one, or not?

[PM5K]

The bottomline is you need a TEAM to beat the Celtics. One player is not going to do it all by his lonesome, not even the greatest to ever lace em up.

Nobody is denying that it takes a team effort to beat any other team, including the Celtics, what I'm saying is that the same Lakers team lead by Jordan would have been a different team than the one lead by Bryant.

You can't say that don't have a team with the players they have, they made it all the way to the Finals, but they were missing something that Kobe didn't bring, something Jordan would have...

[DazedAndConfused]

The Lakers were missing a defensive DNA that the Celtics had. That has more to do with the coaching staff and the individual players themselves than Kobe Bryant. Michael Jordan would not have single-handedly fixed that.

[ManuTim_best of Fwiendz]

The bottomline is you need a TEAM to beat the Celtics. One player is not going to do it all by his lonesome, not even the greatest to ever lace em up.
That argument doesn't hold up.
Lebron was a game 7 win away from doing it to this same Boston Celtics defense all by HIS lonesome. And Kobe had one of the deepest teams in the league this year.

[Manu Pacquiao]

http://www.latimes.com/la-sp-plaschke18-2008jun18,0,5112683.column

MVP? More like MIA
Kobe Bryant made just seven of 22 mostly wild shots. He had just one assist. He had four turnovers. The league MVP was unable to carry a team that needed carrying.
June 18, 2008

BOSTON — In the end, the chant became fact, the screaming pleas of throaty New Englanders transposed into a sinking reality for silent Angelenos.

In the end, the crazy dream that the Lakers could quickly turn dysfunction into destiny ended when the Boston Celtics slowly turned them into chowder.


L.A. Beat.

And how.

An NBA Finals that began with the Lakers spraying wild streams of hope across the Southland ended Tuesday with those same Lakers in a small and embarrassed puddle.

Which the Celtics splashed through. Again and again. Loudly and messily and triumphantly in a 39-point victory that gave them their record 17th NBA championship.

The final score in Game 6 was Celtics 131, Lakers 92.

The final count in Finals games was Celtics 4, Lakers 2.

The final scene was green and white confetti blanketing brown parquet, small tears blanketing giant cheeks, fans tumbling over barricades onto the floor as the Lakers tried to escape.

"Man, man, man," said the Celtics' Kevin Garnett, saying it all.

The final cheers were heartfelt songs filled with the relief of fans who have waited 22 years since the Celtics' last title.

But the final chants were more compelling, because they were directed at you-know-who.

In his best chance at establishing his legacy as a championship player without Shaquille O'Neal, Kobe Bryant was seemingly burdened by something even heavier.

He made just seven of 22 mostly wild shots. He had just one assist. He had four turnovers.

The league MVP was

AWFUL, unable to break through even the most basic of one-on-one Celtic defenses, unable to carry a team that needed carrying.

In the six games of the series, he shot poorly, led inconsistently, had only one really dramatic moment, and that was on defense.

And, so, in voices that seemingly shook the TD Banknorth Garden, with Bryant standing at the foul line in the third quarter, here came those chants.

"You're . . . not . . . Jordan!" the fans sang, referring to Michael Jordan.

No, clearly, at this point he is not.

When Bryant began the fourth quarter on the bench with his team trailing by 29 points, they chanted again.

"Where . . . is . . . Kobe?" they sang even louder.


Today even the most diehard Bryant fans must be asking themselves the same thing, in wondering how far he can lead a team by himself.

"Once you taste defeat, that makes you a little tougher," said Bryant.

Other Lakers were just as deserving of the jeers.

Lamar Odom had two baskets and three turnovers and not one offensive rebound for a team that combined for a stunningly low two.

Pau Gasol had four baskets and five turnovers and the indignity of being forced into a jump ball by a guy -- Garnett -- using just one hand at the time.

"I thought we played on our heels from the very get-go," said Coach Phil Jackson. "They overran us. . . . We never met that energy all night tonight."

Before the game, if the Lakers were to lose, I was considering writing a column extolling this season's amazing turnaround and applauding them for an inspiring effort that ended at the feet of a clearly better team.

Before the game, if the Lakers were to lose, I was reminding everyone how their best inside player was in street clothes, and how Andrew Bynum's return next season should make them NBA favorites.

But after what happened in the game, how could any of us believe any of that?

They need more than Bynum. They need toughness in the middle. They needed maturity everywhere.

"We were surprised we were here, and we're glad that we had an opportunity," Jackson said. "But whenever you get this opportunity, you don't want to let it slip away, and we did."

How bad did it slip?

In the last seven minutes of the second quarter, the Celtics outscored the Lakers, 26-6, with a lineup that included three Celtic subs.

How bad did it look?

Garnett stalked around the court waving and chanting, a pep rally celebration -- with 5:07 left in the game.

The fans began chanting, "Nah-nah-nah-nah . . . goodbye" -- with 4:53 left.

Paul Pierce began doing a disco dance on the Celtic bench -- with 2:21 left.

Speaking of bad, yeah, the guy who began the series being carried off the floor and placed into a wheelchair was the Series MVP, an award that Pierce should place next to his Oscar.

"This is unreal," said Pierce in his acceptance speech.

I agree. I picked the Lakers to win in five games. The Lakers could not have won this series if it had gone 25 games.

I discounted that the Celtics' three veteran stars -- two of them acquired last summer -- would not be denied the championship that had thus far eluded them.

I didn't give them enough credit, and I gave some of the untested Lakers way too much credit.

So, too, apparently, did Jackson, who took the unusual step of threatening roster moves even before the cheering stopped.

"We have to get some players if we're going to come back and repeat, to have that kind of aggressiveness that we need," he said.

So when they return next fall, some of the Lakers might be new.

After this awful farewell, it is hoped that some of them will also be improved.


Fair weather fag.

[DazedAndConfused]

That argument doesn't hold up.
Lebron was a game 7 win away from doing it to this same Boston Celtics defense all by HIS lonesome. And Kobe had one of the deepest teams in the league this year.

Lebron's team plays amazing defense. If you notice teams that had strong defenses with physical front lines fared far better against the Celtics this year than teams with good offense. Matchups, matchups, matchups.

There are so many things that go into winning besides the franchise player. You guys need to get your head out of your asses and realize that one player alone isn't winning you the ship and one player alone is often never the reason why a team loses.

[Ghazi]

I'm not a Kobe fan, but the criticisms of him are ridiculous. He has never personally compared himself to Jordan and has said something along the lines of "Michael is Michael" and "Kobe is Kobe", yet because the MEDIA has decided to build him up people criticize him for not living up to the standard of excellence of the greatest player of all time. That's like criticizing a millionaire for not being a billionaire. Kobe is what he is, the best shooting guard in the game. We can talk about how Jordan would not have blown the game 4 lead against Boston and that may be true, because Jordan is a much better player than Kobe Bryant... but so what? Criticizing someone because he is not as good as the best player of all time makes no sense.

and the "can't win without Shaq" argument holds little substance either considering Shaq can't win without Kobe either (2006 Finals were BS, either). We could also say Garnett can't win without Pierce/Allen, Pierce can't win without Allen/Garnett, and Allen can't win without Garnett/Pierce, Robinson can't win without Duncan, etc etc.

[ManuTim_best of Fwiendz]

He has never personally compared himself to Jordan and has said something along the lines of "Michael is Michael" and "Kobe is Kobe", yet because the MEDIA has decided to build him up people criticize him for not living up to the standard of excellence of the greatest player of all time.

Please, Kobe is not an innocent victim of the media. His actions on court speak louder than words ever since his first all star game. It's more like 40-60.

If he didn't want the heat, he shouldn't have been boasting "not tonight, not tonight" to the fans in Boston. And not backing up his trash-talking in the 2nd half of game 6. Instead he cried. :lmao

[Spur-Addict]

Lebron's team plays amazing defense. If you notice teams that had strong defenses with physical front lines fared far better against the Celtics this year than teams with good offense. Matchups, matchups, matchups.

There are so many things that go into winning besides the franchise player. You guys need to get your head out of your asses and realize that one player alone isn't winning you the ship and one player alone is often never the reason why a team loses.

I'm sure Kobe had no say in evaluation of the current roster. Just not to long ago he was crying about the roster situation in regards to alot of things. If i'm not mistaken he demanded a trade, but then things changed around camp. Things changed at point and power forward. Fish is supposed to be this great defender, Kobe is all league if i'm not mistaken. I don't care what you say, Turiaf is a good defender and so is Trevor. Mihm is a good defender. Odom and Gasol certainly played well against Boozer and Okur. Also, I remember you saying Gasol did the job On timmy not to long ago, now he can't defend? GTFOH

Now, after being favored by everyone and their mother, they lose and their team is looked at in a different manner. Last series L.A was a superb defending team, now they aren't? Good against the early round opponents and now they aren't? Man why don't you GTFOH. Everything must be perfect for Kobe, why don't you stop making excuses for him? What I saw was a talented team who were bullied, PERIOD.

Everyone including Kobe were bullied. In a deciding game you don't just throw up jumpers, he could've posted up on the block but he didn't. They were bullied despite a seven footer shooting 15 footers all series long. Boston didn't have much of an interior game at all. Just not to long ago you said they were missing one piece, now it's more than one? What your team needs is heart, that doesn't grow on trees i'm afraid. The Spurs aren't the most talented team all around, but we certainly have heart. Despite all the set backs this season and post season we fought b/c we have heart. Heart will get you somewhere talent can't, when you have heart and talent, WATCH OUT. Hopefully we can sure up the places that need it b/c we have all the heart any team needs, along with great talent already.

[Kobe24Forever]

yeah all these kobe hate has got to stop, in regards to Jordan, it was the assinine fans who did the comparisons not kobe, you can't compare the current lakers squad with the bulls squad either, the bulls were just superior defensively, they had hardnose and very quick and smart players who played great team defense, jordan couldnt do it all by himself, lets get serious, we only got gasol, this year, he's still soft, odom is soft as well, but i can say that with gay allen, rondo and garnett, there's more ways to exploit the celtics quick defense and that is andrew bynum, a big strong body down there, and a very mobile one at that, will cause celtics all sorts of problem, we just ran into a matchup wall, and some very inexperience players like farmar and vujacic.

[KidCongo]

I'm not a Kobe fan, but the criticisms of him are ridiculous. He has never personally compared himself to Jordan and has said something along the lines of "Michael is Michael" and "Kobe is Kobe", yet because the MEDIA has decided to build him up people criticize him for not living up to the standard of excellence of the greatest player of all time. That's like criticizing a millionaire for not being a billionaire. Kobe is what he is, the best shooting guard in the game. We can talk about how Jordan would not have blown the game 4 lead against Boston and that may be true, because Jordan is a much better player than Kobe Bryant... but so what? Criticizing someone because he is not as good as the best player of all time makes no sense.

and the "can't win without Shaq" argument holds little substance either considering Shaq can't win without Kobe either (2006 Finals were BS, either). We could also say Garnett can't win without Pierce/Allen, Pierce can't win without Allen/Garnett, and Allen can't win without Garnett/Pierce, Robinson can't win without Duncan, etc etc.

Allen/Pierce/Garnett are not compared to Jordan. Shaq won without Kobe.

[KidCongo]

I'm sure Kobe had no say in evaluation of the current roster. Just not to long ago he was crying about the roster situation in regards to alot of things. If i'm not mistaken he demanded a trade, but then things changed around camp. Things changed at point and power forward. Fish is supposed to be this great defender, Kobe is all league if i'm not mistaken. I don't care what you say, Turiaf is a good defender and so is Trevor. Mihm is a good defender. Odom and Gasol certainly played well against Boozer and Okur. Also, I remember you saying Gasol did the job On timmy not to long ago, now he can't defend? GTFOH


Too right. Kobe should be able to light a fire up under their asses and make them defend.

[ratm1221]

The bottomline is you need a TEAM to beat the Celtics. One player is not going to do it all by his lonesome, not even the greatest to ever lace em up.

Now you are contradicting yourself. You said all this TEAM is missing is Bynum. Now you are saying there there is no team outside of Kobe. Which is it?

And yes, MJ would have put this TEAM on his back and carried them piggyback to a championship kicking and screaming.

And :rollin at you saying this Celtics team has the best defense in 25 years...

If that is what helps you sleep at night to keep the 39 point nightmares away.

[1Parker1]

No one knows for sure what Jordan would/could have done with this Lakers team against this Celtics defense.

But one thing, anyone, even Laker Homers, can agree with; In no way, shape, or form would an MJ led team have let this Celtics team come back from 24 down at halftime, 20 up in the 3rd quarter, on their own Homecourt in a pivotal Game 4. That game could have raised Kobe's game and reputation, but instead, people are going to look back on this series, particularly THAT game, and it's going to take Kobe a long time to recover from it.

[ratm1221]

Lebron's team plays amazing defense. If you notice teams that had strong defenses with physical front lines fared far better against the Celtics this year than teams with good offense. Matchups, matchups, matchups.

There are so many things that go into winning besides the franchise player. You guys need to get your head out of your asses and realize that one player alone isn't winning you the ship and one player alone is often never the reason why a team loses.

So let me get this straight. You said one man can't do shit and it's a TEAM that wins ships. But, your also saying that Bynum (ONE MAN) coming back is going to fix all the defense problems?

[stretch]

If you seriously think swapping MJ with KB would have resulted in the Lakers winning against the Celtics you are a moron. Or a Kobe hater. Probably both.

No way Jordan lets his team slip the way Kobe did. No way he allows a comeback like Kobe did. Jordan knew when to take over games. Kobe clearly does not, as he allowed the Celtics to cut deeper and deeper into the lead, any by time he started to try to take over, it was far too late. Not to mention he falls in love with the jumper WAY too much. Jordan never had as big of an issue as Kobe does with falling in love with the jumper.

[stretch]

and did anyone notice how PATHETIC Kobe was on defense in game 6? even before the game was out of hand, he was missing rotations and playing AWFUL lazy defense and was a big reason they went on a run and was able to maintain that lead. Kobe has definitley lost several points defensively in my book. he was very average on defense all series, and i cant count how many steals he gets from getting away with fouling the shit out of opponents. i almost NEVER see him get a clean steal.

[~~~~~~]

Bryant needs another Batman.No, Bryant needs Superman :lol

[~~~~~~]

Bryant's not too good at lighting fires, but he is an expert at throwing people under the bus :lol

[dbreiden83080]

The revisionist history going on here is laughable. It sounds like 99% of you did not even watch Jordan in the 80's and 90's and all you know of him is the highlights you see on TV.

Jordan faced a very similar defense to the Celtics in the 80's against the Pistons. He tried to do it all by himself and failed miserably. I mean miserably. So much so that people wrote him off as a player incapable of leading a team to a championship, much like the criticisms of Kobe now. Maybe a Jordan in his prime shoots a bit higher FG%, maybe he stops Pierce a couple more times, but he doesn't change this outcome one iota. Celtics are still winning and it has far more to do with the other Laker role players than it does anything else.


:lmao:lmao:lmao

How about those series against the Knicks?? A better defensive squad than the Celtics in an ERA of more physical play. Jordan destroyed those Knick teams in epic 6 and 7 game series. In todays game of touch fouls, he would have destroyed the Celtics in this series. Please tell me you are not saying Kobe is as good as MJ. MJ never played that bad in his prime in the finals and he played against some great teams.

[dbreiden83080]

You clearly did not watch Jordan in the 80's so this discussion ends here. Learn some NBA history, yes it's true the NBA existed before the Spurs and Tim Duncan.

And yes the Celtics are one of the best defensive teams this league has seen, even more so with the addition of zone defenses. Statistically they are the best in the last 25 years.

This Celtic D is not light years better than some of the Spurs teams that won titles and i know MJ would have torched them as well.

[~~~~~~]

Jordan scored 63 in the playoffs against what is considered the best frontline ever in Bird, McHale and Parrish. Did Bryant even scored that much against the enver Nuggets, a team that plays no defense, in this year's playoffs?

[Gino]

The bottomline is you need a TEAM to beat the Celtics. One player is not going to do it all by his lonesome, not even the greatest to ever lace em up.

And you need a leader as well. Something Kobe is not.


No Celtic would ever bitch out a teammate on the court like Bryant bitched out Gasol after the big Spainard failed to catch his 130-mph, no-look pass in the first half of Game 5. How can Lakers fans continue to defend such petulant behavior? You got me. But, hey, he must be a good guy because he can do news conferences while holding both of his kids. I have to admit, I'm a little Kobe'd out. Even politicians handle their public image less transparently -- we're almost to the point that Kobe's PR team is going to stage a fake fire in the Hollywood Hills and have Kobe "randomly" drive by the house, then run in to "save" three kids.)

[dbreiden83080]

And you need a leader as well. Something Kobe is not.

He really isn't, Jordan was an Egomaniac like Kobe, but he seemed to find ways to inspire the guys more than Kobe does. Kobe's teammates seem to tolerate his bullshit because he is such a great player but are not really inspired by him.

[baseline bum]

You clearly did not watch Jordan in the 80's so this discussion ends here. Learn some NBA history, yes it's true the NBA existed before the Spurs and Tim Duncan.

And yes the Celtics are one of the best defensive teams this league has seen, even more so with the addition of zone defenses. Statistically they are the best in the last 25 years.

That's funny. I've probably watched 80%+ of Jordan's playoff games since '86. You clearly never watched Jordan the way you underrate him by constantly comparing Kobe Bryant to him. I remember those series with Detroit as prime examples of why Jordan is an incomparable player. Jordan would get beat up, clotheslined, and thrown to the floor on almost every play, and he still said 'fuck you' and attacked relentlessly. Michael refused to be intimidated going against the dirtiest/most physical frontline in NBA history.

[MateoNeygro]

If you seriously think swapping MJ with KB would have resulted in the Lakers winning against the Celtics you are a moron. Or a Kobe hater. Probably both.

i think MJ could've beat this Celtics team with the present Lakers, and i'm definently not a KOBE hater i think he is super talented. But he's not Jordan, i must also say this, i believe that Kobe could have won championships with some of the BULLS teams that Jordan had but i don't think he would have won 6 thats for sure.

[MateoNeygro]

Lebron's team plays amazing defense. If you notice teams that had strong defenses with physical front lines fared far better against the Celtics this year than teams with good offense. Matchups, matchups, matchups.

There are so many things that go into winning besides the franchise player. You guys need to get your head out of your asses and realize that one player alone isn't winning you the ship and one player alone is often never the reason why a team loses.

amazing defense? foreal? A physical front line?
Ilgauskas? Varejo? that ridiculous haha

[dbreiden83080]

Jordan would get beat up, clotheslined, and thrown to the floor on almost every play, and he still said 'fuck you' and attacked relentlessly. Michael refused to be intimidated going against the dirtiest/most physical frontline in NBA history.

No doubt about it. Jordan is the best player of all time not just because of his great physical gifts, but because he was probably the fiercest, most competitive player to ever lace em up. Basketball was life and death to him out there.

[DazedAndConfused]

That's funny. I've probably watched 80%+ of Jordan's playoff games since '86. You clearly never watched Jordan the way you underrate him by constantly comparing Kobe Bryant to him. I remember those series with Detroit as prime examples of why Jordan is an incomparable player. Jordan would get beat up, clotheslined, and thrown to the floor on almost every play, and he still said 'fuck you' and attacked relentlessly. Michael refused to be intimidated going against the dirtiest/most physical frontline in NBA history.

First of all I've never said Kobe was better than MJ. That's you making up lies. The only thing I've said in this thread is that MJ wouldn't have changed the result of this series and I've seen no substantive arguments from anyone here to make me think otherwise. All I see is "MJ is BETTA THAN KOBE, KOBE is a RAPIST". That's not how you win an argument.

Going 1-5 will never win you an NBA Championship. Kobe has done this before in his career and failed just as miserably as MJ did. He's scored 81 points in one fucking game, scored 50pts something like 5 straight times, he's done the me against the world thing and it resulted in a #7 seed and 1st round exit. I'm sure he could have said fuck it and attacked the Celtics defense relentlessly, which would have resulted in the Lakers getting blown out even more and Kobe risking further injury to himself. He's still playing with a torn ligament in his pinky, everytime it gets whacked on the way to the rim he risks further damaging it.

I'm waiting for someone to give me a real counter as to why MJ would make the Lakers win this series. Right now you all get an "F" in terms of your debating skills. You need to come up with some solid examples and substantive arguments other than "MJ WAS BETTA DAN KOBE!!!".

Tell me, how does MJ solve the Laker's defensive problems single-handedly? How does he make Odom not disappear for whole halves at a time? How does he make Pau not shy away from extreme contact in the paint? How does he make Vladimir Radmanovich a better perimeter defender and more able to stay in front of Pierce? How does he make Sasha not throw the ball away carelessly? How does he make the Lakers play better team defense? These are the reason why LAL lost, not because Kobe wasn't MJ.

[ratm1221]

First of all I've never said Kobe was better than MJ. That's you making up lies. The only thing I've said in this thread is that MJ wouldn't have changed the result of this series and I've seen no substantive arguments from anyone here to make me think otherwise. All I see is "MJ is BETTA THAN KOBE, KOBE is a RAPIST". That's not how you win an argument.

Going 1-5 will never win you an NBA Championship. Kobe has done this before in his career and failed just as miserably as MJ did. He's scored 81 points in one fucking game, scored 50pts something like 5 straight times, he's done the me against the world thing and it resulted in a #7 seed and 1st round exit. I'm sure he could have said fuck it and attacked the Celtics defense relentlessly, which would have resulted in the Lakers getting blown out even more and Kobe risking further injury to himself. He's still playing with a torn ligament in his pinky, everytime it gets whacked on the way to the rim he risks further damaging it.

I'm waiting for someone to give me a real counter as to why MJ would make the Lakers win this series. Right now you all get an "F" in terms of your debating skills. You need to come up with some solid examples and substantive arguments other than "MJ WAS BETTA DAN KOBE!!!".

Tell me, how does MJ solve the Laker's defensive problems single-handedly? How does he make Odom not disappear for whole halves at a time? How does he make Pau not shy away from extreme contact in the paint? How does he make Vladimir Radmanovich a better perimeter defender and more able to stay in front of Pierce? How does he make Sasha not throw the ball away carelessly? How does he make the Lakers play better team defense? These are the reason why LAL lost, not because Kobe wasn't MJ.

Kobe wouldn't have had to score 81 points by himself to win the game. He needed to show some nuts and drive to the hoop instead of running down the court and jacking up wild contested 3's. MJ would not have done that. He would have driven to the hoop every time no matter how bad he got beat up and he definitely would not have turned the ball over a dozen times. You say you watched Jordan in his prime. Well I don't believe you. When I grew up there was Mike Tyson and Michael Jordan. Michael Jordan was not human. He could effect the outcome more than any other player to set foot on the court. Trade out Jordan for Kobe and there is no denying, no matter what you say, that he would increase the chances of winning this series dramatically. Sorry but that's not an opinion, it's a fact. And if you don't believe that you haven't really seen Jordan play like you claim.

[Ghazi]

Game 6, not even MJ himself could've won considering how poor the Lakers were playing and how HOT the celtics were. Game 4 on the other hand, he does not blow that lead. So it's conceivable to say that if MJ was on the Lakers there would be a game 7 tonight in Boston.

But it's irrelevant. MJ is better than Kobe, I know this, and I don't blame Kobe for not being as good as MJ because he simply isn't. And there's nothing wrong with that, he's the best shooting guard in the game right now, MJ is the best player in the history OF the game.

[baseline bum]

First of all I've never said Kobe was better than MJ. That's you making up lies. The only thing I've said in this thread is that MJ wouldn't have changed the result of this series and I've seen no substantive arguments from anyone here to make me think otherwise. All I see is "MJ is BETTA THAN KOBE, KOBE is a RAPIST". That's not how you win an argument.

Going 1-5 will never win you an NBA Championship. Kobe has done this before in his career and failed just as miserably as MJ did. He's scored 81 points in one fucking game, scored 50pts something like 5 straight times, he's done the me against the world thing and it resulted in a #7 seed and 1st round exit. I'm sure he could have said fuck it and attacked the Celtics defense relentlessly, which would have resulted in the Lakers getting blown out even more and Kobe risking further injury to himself. He's still playing with a torn ligament in his pinky, everytime it gets whacked on the way to the rim he risks further damaging it.

I'm waiting for someone to give me a real counter as to why MJ would make the Lakers win this series. Right now you all get an "F" in terms of your debating skills. You need to come up with some solid examples and substantive arguments other than "MJ WAS BETTA DAN KOBE!!!".

Tell me, how does MJ solve the Laker's defensive problems single-handedly? How does he make Odom not disappear for whole halves at a time? How does he make Pau not shy away from extreme contact in the paint? How does he make Vladimir Radmanovich a better perimeter defender and more able to stay in front of Pierce? How does he make Sasha not throw the ball away carelessly? How does he make the Lakers play better team defense? These are the reason why LAL lost, not because Kobe wasn't MJ.

Here's why MJ would have won the series:

1. Jordan was a far better penetrator than Bryant. No team ever kept Jordan out of the lane. He was quicker and more athletic than Bryant, and was a stronger finisher. He was strong enough so that Pierce could never keep him in check one on one by playing physical defense... and if Rodman, Mahorn, and Laimbeer couldn't keep Jordan from finishing at the rim, don't tell me Garnett, Perkins, and Powe would.

2. Jordan was a far better defensive player than Bryant. You could stick him on Pierce, unlike Bryant. Kobe Bryant is the most overrated defender I've ever seen. He always plays the other team's worst offensive player (ie, Bowen, Rondo). First team All-Defense my ass. So anyways, Radmanovic wouldn't be guarding Pierce; someone with the strength to play physical defense while having the quickness to stay in front of Pierce would be.

3. Jordan could score on the block. You could always run a high percentage play for him on the baseline to make double teaming him difficult. An absolute go-to play that Bryant hasn't even tried to have in his arsenal since '04. What was the Lakers goto crunch-time play? Throw it to Kobe and have him shoot a wild off balance jumper?

[DazedAndConfused]

Here's why MJ would have won the series:

1. Jordan was a far better penetrator than Bryant. No team ever kept Jordan out of the lane. He was quicker and more athletic than Bryant, and was a stronger finisher. He was strong enough so that Pierce could never keep him in check one on one by playing physical defense... and if Rodman, Mahorn, and Laimbeer couldn't keep Jordan from finishing at the rim, don't tell me Garnett, Perkins, and Powe would.

2. Jordan was a far better defensive player than Bryant. You could stick him on Pierce, unlike Bryant. Kobe Bryant is the most overrated defender I've ever seen. He always plays the other team's worst offensive player (ie, Bowen, Rondo). First team All-Defense my ass. So anyways, Radmanovic wouldn't be guarding Pierce; someone with the strength to play physical defense while having the quickness to stay in front of Pierce would be.

3. Jordan could score on the block. You could always run a high percentage play for him on the baseline to make double teaming him difficult. An absolute go-to play that Bryant hasn't even tried to have in his arsenal since '04. What was the Lakers goto crunch-time play? Throw it to Kobe and have him shoot a wild off balance jumper?

1. Nope, Jordan is not penetrating and getting into the lane against this zone defense. The Celtics were keying 3-4 defenders on Bryant at all times. There simply wasn't any room to penetrate. Lebron James could barely get to the rim, and he is much more athletic and a stronger finisher than Jordan IMHO. You forget, MJ never had to play against zone defenses. The Bad Boy Pistons may have knocked him around a bit and been more physical, but that's not nearly as effective as a zone defense in terms of thwarting someone from penetrating.

2. Totally agree. MJ's defense was superb, equally as good as his offense. Still, him stopping Pierce a few more times per game isn't winning this series. Who's guarding KG, who's guarding Ray Allen, who's keeping Perkins/Powe/BBD off the glass, who's staying in front of Eddie House, who's keeping Rondo in check? The Celtics got plenty of production from players not named Pierce in this series.

3. Jordan would have been more effective on the block. Still, the Celtics did a great job of cutting off the passing lanes and making it difficult to make the entry pass. This doesn't change the outcome of the series IMHO. The Celtics would have swarmed Jordan and forced him to give up the ball if he was too effective in the post.

What you don't understand baseline is that the Celtics defense was used to stop Kobe at all costs and force someone else to make baskets. Nobody can score against a defense that is keying 3-4 defenders on you at all times. They basically play illegal defense 90% of the time but bank on the fact that they won't get called for it much. Great points though, and I agree with most of what you said. I just don't think it would have been enough to turn the tide.

[~~~~~~]

Jordan would stay up 3 days straight on a gambling binge and stll find a way to win a bball game.

[TheNextGen]

Mj's dick must be sore since this thread was made.

[DazedAndConfused]

Mj's dick must be sore since this thread was made.

It's a testament to how rabid the Kobe haters are.

[Lake_show]

No point in arguing with SA fans who have a bias. Kobe in 5 bitch.

[DazedAndConfused]

Yea this thread has made me realize how pointless it is arguing with Kobe-haters.

[Spur-Addict]

Jordan would stay up 3 days straight on a gambling binge and stll find a way to win a bball game.

At least someone is honest. :clap

[m33p0]

Yea this thread has made me realize how pointless it is arguing with Kobe-haters.
same thing can be said about Kobe-cocksuckers.

[ManuTim_best of Fwiendz]

Trade out Jordan for Kobe and there is no denying, no matter what you say, that he would increase the chances of winning this series dramatically. Sorry but that's not an opinion, it's a fact. And if you don't believe that you haven't really seen Jordan play like you claim.
Dude, the guy was only six! when Jordan won his final championship. Cut him some slack.

[~~~~~~]

No point in arguing with SA fans who have a bias. Kobe in 5 bitch.


Yea this thread has made me realize how pointless it is arguing with Kobe-haters.Fuck you dumbasses. Do you realize even realize why Kobe is hated by non-Laker fans and even Laker fans like me. It's not because of his on court play. It's because Kobe-stans like you have to go out of your way and rub it into peoples faces of how "great this and how great that" he is, how you constantly fellate him and put him on a pedestal, how you have to defend his on and off the court arrogance. He's a class A1 prick, asshole and egomaniac and those are irrefutable facts. He's got no one but himself to blame for those character flaws. You're too much of a moron to realize that you're guilty by association when you make him to be more than what he is.

[DazedAndConfused]

Not once has a single Laker fan here said Kobe > MJ. This is how warped you Kobe haters are.

[~~~~~~]

Not once has a single Laker fan here said Kobe > MJ. This is how warped you Kobe haters are.Because he isn't, which is blatantly obvious, and doesn't need to be stated you pea-brained Neanderthal.

[DazedAndConfused]

Fuck you dumbasses. Do you realize even realize why Kobe is hated by non-Laker fans and even Laker fans like me. It's not because of his on court play. It's because Kobe-stans like you have to go out of your way and rub it into peoples faces of how "great this and how great that" he is, how you constantly fellate him and put him on a pedestal, how you have to defend his on and off the court arrogance. He's a class A1 prick, asshole and egomaniac and those are irrefutable facts. He's got no one but himself to blame for those character flaws. You're too much of a moron to realize that you're guilty by association when you make him to be more than what he is.

Just responding to your pea-brained response. Not one Laker fan in this thread has said anything of the sort that Kobe > MJ. This is you and your warped reality making up shit.

There are legions of Kobe 1st fans out there that fit the bill of what you are describing. And I hate to break it to you, but they AREN'T Laker fans.

[lefty]

Yea this thread has made me realize how pointless it is arguing with Kobe-haters.

Yes we really really really hate Kobe

[kingmalaki]

I'm waiting for someone to give me a real counter as to why MJ would make the Lakers win this series. Right now you all get an "F" in terms of your debating skills. You need to come up with some solid examples and substantive arguments other than "MJ WAS BETTA DAN KOBE!!!".


I have some reasons for you.

1) LeBron almost beat the Celtics, even though he shot a pathetic %. Like MJ, Lebron constantly attacked the basket. This is something Kobe doesn't do. As great as Kobe is, he is still primarily a jumpshooter. LeBron, without a jumper and limited help, almost beat Boston. I think MJ, who was just as good as attacking...and has a jumper...and would have more help on LA's team than LeBron had with the Cavs, would have beaten Boston.

2) To back up #1, I have seen MJ light up the Pistons defense (which did zone him and beat the hell out of him when he drove). They couldn't keep him out of the lane. So no, I don't think a worse defense would have kept him out of the lane. I know you Laker fans need to overhype Boston because to make your spanking feel better, but the Boston defense is not the best defense of all-time. The 90's Knicks, 90's Sonice and 80's Pistons defenses that MJ beat were all better.

3) I don't see MJ letting his team blow a 24 point lead at home. How did Kobe play in that game? If LA wins that game the series is 2-2 with one more game at home. That game let Boston go up 3-1 and changed the entire series, especially since KG plays better when ahead and not when behind or under intense pressure.

4) When the Bulls were winning, MJ was able to get his mid-range jumper on anyone. The fadeaway was automatic. It didn't matter if it was in the face of 3 dudes...that midrange jumper was automatic. Kobe got plenty of midrange shots. He just missed them. I even saw Pierce block one (how often did you see MJ get his fadeaway swatted??). If Kobe was hitting his midrange jumper like he was against SA (who also packed the paint against him) then there is no problem. For whatever reason he was missing them this series.

Good enough for ya?

[~~~~~~]

I have some reasons for you.

1) LeBron almost beat the Celtics, even though he shot a pathetic %. Like MJ, Lebron constantly attacked the basket. This is something Kobe doesn't do. As great as Kobe is, he is still primarily a jumpshooter. LeBron, without a jumper and limited help, almost beat Boston. I think MJ, who was just as good as attacking...and has a jumper...and would have more help on LA's team than LeBron had with the Cavs, would have beaten Boston.

2) To back up #1, I have seen MJ light up the Pistons defense (which did zone him and beat the hell out of him when he drove). They couldn't keep him out of the lane. So no, I don't think a worse defense would have kept him out of the lane. I know you Laker fans need to overhype Boston because to make your spanking feel better, but the Boston defense is not the best defense of all-time. The 90's Knicks, 90's Sonice and 80's Pistons defenses that MJ beat were all better.

3) I don't see MJ letting his team blow a 24 point lead at home. How did Kobe play in that game? If LA wins that game the series is 2-2 with one more game at home. That game let Boston go up 3-1 and changed the entire series, especially since KG plays better when ahead and not when behind or under intense pressure.

4) When the Bulls were winning, MJ was able to get his mid-range jumper on anyone. The fadeaway was automatic. It didn't matter if it was in the face of 3 dudes...that midrange jumper was automatic. Kobe got plenty of midrange shots. He just missed them. I even saw Pierce block one (how often did you see MJ get his fadeaway swatted??). If Kobe was hitting his midrange jumper like he was against SA (who also packed the paint against him) then there is no problem. For whatever reason he was missing them this series.

Good enough for ya?Bryant chokes in the Finals plain and simple. In 4 of the 5 Finals he's been in, he's shot 36% (2000), 42% (2001), 38% (2004), 41% (2008).

The myopic Lakers fan homers now like to use the trendy "Bryant has to face a zone defense" argument. It's complete BS and doesn't hold water 'cause Bryant had a full 5 years of NOT facing zone defenses prior to the 2001-02 season which is when the NBA allowed zone defenses. Bryant never shot better than 47% in any season from 1996-2001.

[~~~~~~]

Just responding to your pea-brained response. Not one Laker fan in this thread has said anything of the sort that Kobe > MJ. This is you and your warped reality making up shit.

There are legions of Kobe 1st fans out there that fit the bill of what you are describing. And I hate to break it to you, but they AREN'T Laker fans.Bryant choking with a 24 point lead in game 4 of the 2008 Finals is making it up??? You must be smoking too much pot like Odom :downspin:

Hate to break it to ya but plently of Kobe-stans who are Laker fans regularly post on several Lakers forums, some of which I'm also a registered member. You're too dumb to understand that Kobe-stans like you all too often bring up "what if" scenarios with Bryant which completely undermines your arguments because it never happened. Jordan actually did it, his accomplishments are irrefutable facts.

[The Franchise]

1. Nope, Jordan is not penetrating and getting into the lane against this zone defense. The Celtics were keying 3-4 defenders on Bryant at all times. There simply wasn't any room to penetrate. Lebron James could barely get to the rim, and he is much more athletic and a stronger finisher than Jordan IMHO. You forget, MJ never had to play against zone defenses. The Bad Boy Pistons may have knocked him around a bit and been more physical, but that's not nearly as effective as a zone defense in terms of thwarting someone from penetrating.

2. Totally agree. MJ's defense was superb, equally as good as his offense. Still, him stopping Pierce a few more times per game isn't winning this series. Who's guarding KG, who's guarding Ray Allen, who's keeping Perkins/Powe/BBD off the glass, who's staying in front of Eddie House, who's keeping Rondo in check? The Celtics got plenty of production from players not named Pierce in this series.

3. Jordan would have been more effective on the block. Still, the Celtics did a great job of cutting off the passing lanes and making it difficult to make the entry pass. This doesn't change the outcome of the series IMHO. The Celtics would have swarmed Jordan and forced him to give up the ball if he was too effective in the post.

What you don't understand baseline is that the Celtics defense was used to stop Kobe at all costs and force someone else to make baskets. Nobody can score against a defense that is keying 3-4 defenders on you at all times. They basically play illegal defense 90% of the time but bank on the fact that they won't get called for it much. Great points though, and I agree with most of what you said. I just don't think it would have been enough to turn the tide.This entire post was retarded. A person would have more luck talking into a baboons ass than trying to convince you of anything.