George Hill's athleticism: By the Numbers w/ video

On different threads I've seen some arguements and discussion over Hill and what his athleticism really is. So instead of responding on all of them here's a dedicated thread. I also have some number breakdowns on Hairston and Gist, but maybe later.

So here's a breakdown going by the limited resources available: combine measurements and video.

Lots of talk about his speed and his wingspan, but not too much about things like his reach and his vert.

Hill does have a nice wingspan of course (6-9) but a mediocre standing reach (8-1.5). As a comparison, Derrick Rose has a samller wingspan (6-8) but superior standing reach (8-2.5). So when prospect analysis articles write about him being ill suited to alter shots, the reach is coming into play.

It's harder to evaluate the speed times compared to the hard height/reach numbers. TJ Ford's 3/4 speed wasn't nearly as good on paper as it is on the court with the ball.

A broad note about these numbers. There were 32 players drafted in 2008 who had combine times officially recorded, a handful more who just had the measurements of height/weight etc. The all time number at DX is 295 performances timed from draftees. There were a couple who were repeated as they did 2 combines after entering the draft and pulling out then going back in the next year, but 295 is the number.

That being said, there's an odd disparity in Hill's 3/4 time and his agility time.

3/4 time. Hill did tie for 5th place on among the timed 32 draftees. If you go by the all-time numbers from Draft Express, the 08 class is among the fastest, and among the 295 timed performances of drafted players in the DX database, Hill has the 15th fastest time out of 295.

But the lane agility time was almost the exact opposite. Out of 32 timed 2008 draftees, Hill's lane time was 27th. All time DX numbers, he's tied for 266th out of 295.

Hate to repeat myself but the lane and 3/4 times can be very deceiving and don't translate well to on the court play. For instance Monta Ellis had horrible times (his lane time isn't as bad as Hill but close), and I've read rumors that Ellis's performance at the camp was hampered by partying the night before. And regardless of rumor his on court performance blows away his combine times. Joe Johnson also had a poor timed agility lane performance (not as bad as Hill or Ellis, but close enough) but he's a legit all-star.

One measurement that might be more relatable is Hill's no-step vertical measurement, though his max vert is nothing superstar. His no-step vert was in a 2-way tie for 3rd best no-step vert out of the 32 measured draftees. That probably plays a part in why he was able to be such a good rebounder in college. In fact all-time his numbers are in a 5-way tie for 18th out of 295.

His max vert doesn't gain all that much on the no-step, in fact the difference between the two is among the smallest I could find on DX, a difference of 3.5 inches. But still good enough to keep him in a broad 13 person tie for 50th out of 295.

VIDEO EVIDENCE

Here's where the vertical comes into play, these dunks are great for his small size. Not many his size can pull off these dunks in halfcourt sets and traffic. Tony Parker has never done it, the only dunks of his career were all alone with no one within a quarter court of him.

Hill on tape:

2 dunks around the 40 second mark or so

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LS8idEVrGN0

alley oop at 37 seconds or so

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-caS-872Jk

alley oop at 13 seconds

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEb3MS8bK24

Here is a guy who is at least an inch shorter without shoes than players like Monta Ellis and can dunk in games. Maybe not as powerfully, but I believe it's noteworthy.

Very good breakdown :tu

Overall, I think Hill's combine results are positive. That three-quarter quarter speed is really impressive and that's the first number I look at for a point guard. That's the result that Parker broke the all-time record when he tested out and made teams start recognizing him. He had something ridiculous like 2.85 ... which for him translated well to the basketball court.

Lane agility is something I look at when evaluating a bigman. It involves a lot of backpedaling and moves in the lane that most bigs need to be able to make to survive defensively. I never really look at it for point guards but yeah you are right that Hill's number is shockingly bad. After he got drafted I looked it up and it's a little bit scary because big center stiffs have had better numbers.

However, lane agility is really a drill that can be mastered. For example, a lot of draft prospects hook up with trainers who specifically work on that drill. They do it like 20 to 25 times a day for six weeks before the draft. Doing that can shave full seconds off the time. If Hill didn't prepare for it and if that was one of the first times he attempted the lane agility test, that could explain why his results were so bad.

As far as wingspan versus standing reach, I think wingspan is a tad more important for a point guard. A point guard with long arms who can reach and get steals is more important than a point guard who can jump up and contest a shot. Both of Hill's numbers look good enough.

Hill's vertical jump numbers are interesting. You are right that his no-step vert is pretty damn impressive but he didn't really improve as much as expected when going to his max vert. That could mean he jumps off of two feet a la Dominique Wilkins or again perhaps he just didn't get the training. Without knowing the proper procedure of how to take the steps in the max vert, you can easily not jump as high as possible.

The videos make him look bigger than his listed height ... which is a good sign. Dunking in traffic is impressive, considering he's probably exactly as tall as Parker. Being able to dunk isn't hugely important but knowing that the kid is athletic is important considering he's coming from a small school. A lot of non-athletes can do good at a small school.

Overall, the videos I've watched of him make him look pretty good. I'm obviously not sold yet but nothing has stood out to tell me he's going to fail. That lane agility time is concerning but we'll see if it actually translates to him being immobile on the court against NBA players.

His coach has compared him to Parker for a long time and watching the videos, he does have a lot of Parker in his games. He has the little tear drop in the lane. He uses english off the glass. He'll even post up in the lane and then use good footwork to score. He doesn't have the blinding speed but he can jump better.

I'm hopefully Hill can contribute right away in his rookie year. There's still a better than 50/50 shot he doesn't amount to anything but so far, I haven't seen any huge red flags. Ten to twelve minutes per game of energy and attacking is what I'm hoping out of him during the season.

Wathing those videos Hill looks pretty impressive. He seems to have pretty good basketball IQ, as he moves very well without the ball, setting himself up for easy buckets. Also he has a sweet shot. I think as a senior he is very savy and looks like a good floor leader. This is pretty encouraging stuff, welcome George.

He's shorter than Monta Ellis? Ugh.

I like the guy and am optimistic, but look at those high school gyms he played in for college. The rocket-fueled leap to the NBA and NBA players is immense. It may take four to five months for his head to stop spinning.

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Originally Posted by timvp

Being able to dunk isn't hugely important but knowing
that the kid is athletic is important considering he's coming from a small school. A lot of non-athletes can do good at a small school.

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A perfect example of this would be Jared Jordan. Got to be a second round pick last year based on his incredible college career. Like Hill, he was the star of a smalltime division 1 school.

But he just didn't have NBA level athleticism. Great player, great point guard skills, but just doesn't have the body. Plays for Javtokas's old team now, Rytas.

One smalltime div 1 PG's combine vs another :

George Hill, 6-1.25, 181 lbs:

wingspan w/o shoes : +7.75 (even +0 is normal person, not good for NBA)

reach : +24.25 (+24.0 inches feet over height seems to be the case for the vast majority of nba draftees regardless of height, not many had fewer than 24 inches in addition to height; Augustin +24.5, Taylor + 25.25, but Bayless + 23.25 )

no-step vert : 34

max vert : 37.5

lane agility : 12.2

3/4 speed : 3.07

Jared Jordan, 6-0, 183 lbs :

wingspan : +0

reach : +22

no-step vert : 14.5

max vert : 28.5

lane agility : 11.02

3/4 speed : 3.39

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One confidence I think every Spur fan should have is that if Hill fails it won't be because he didn't have NBA level athleticism. The lane time is weird, but the rest makes up for it. It's easy to get caught up in thinking that a small shooler wouldn't be able to cut it in the NBA. After all, the competition was filled with guys much worse than Jared Jordan! But Hill has the body for the NBA.

It's shocking how far away athletically Jordan was from the other players. In the nearly 20 years of drafted players on the DX database, when filtering only point guards, Jordan's no-step vert is far and away the worst. He's TEN inches lower than the next lowest rated drafted no-step verts, Travis Diener. His max vert is tied for second worst all time. His 3/4 speed is the second slowest of all-time drafted point guards.

Jordan just doesn't have the physical tools necessary for NBA level basketball.

Dunk ability in traffic is more about wingspan, how big player's hands is and how fast player jump not so much how high he jump.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mr. Body

He's shorter than Monta Ellis? Ugh.

I like the guy and am optimistic, but look at those high school gyms he played in for college. The rocket-fueled leap to the NBA and NBA players is immense. It may take four to five months for his head to stop spinning.

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:lol

You will go to no lengths to dump on this kid will you.

Christ fuck sake.

dont worry we will groom him up nice and proper and then lose him to the suns....

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Originally Posted by Mr. Body

He's shorter than Monta Ellis? Ugh.

I like the guy and am optimistic

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:lmao

finally some videos that havnt been removed yet, thanks...he's a keeper alright, question is how long with it take for him to figure things out? imo he looks good for our future....all we need now is a big that can catch a pass close to the rim and dunk it....imo the alley-oop can take so much out of the opponent, its almost like a 3 point shot...

So is there any kind of consensus?

Looks like he's not a killer athlete, but it also doesn't look like he'll have much problem keeping up with opposing point guards or seperating from them in open space. Is that a fair assessment?

Either way, I'm pretty satisfied with his athleticism and length....it's the rest of his game I'm worried about.

Holy shit! This guy is a player.


Nice job Pop :tu


Bout time Pop put a stop to this wasted draft pick bullshit.


Right now I have to say Hill and Gist look like keepers to me.


Both of these guys have tons of NBA ability.


The guy I am least convinced about is Hairston...


But even in his interview he has that same, if I don't like you I will stick this basketball up your ass, vibe, that you get from Udoka and Bruce.


Glad to see Pop taking a more active role...he is the FO genius of this organization...not Presti, not RC, not anyone else hired away by any other team...it's Pop. Pop the FO guy >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pop the coach.



Anybody that can't see that Hill easily has the tools and disposition to make it in the NBA is a fool...who simply doesn't understand the game or what factors play a part in a player making it in the NBA.

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Originally Posted by Kill_Bill_Pana

Dunk ability in traffic is more about wingspan, how big player's hands is and how fast player jump not so much how high he jump.

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Not when he's 6 fucking 2 and he's dunking with the ease of a guy 6'6 or taller...in game. Besides...it doesn't matter what it's due too...it matters that he does it easily.


Hill >>>>>>>>>>>> Vaginis

Quote:

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Originally Posted by whottt

Holy shit! This guy is a player.


Nice job Pop :tu


Bout time Pop put a stop to this wasted draft pick bullshit.


Right now I have to say Hill and Gist look like keepers to me.


Both of these guys have tons of NBA ability.


The guy I am least convinced about is Hairston...


But even in his interview he has that same, if I don't like you I will stick this basketball up your ass, vibe, that you get from Udoka and Bruce.


Glad to see Pop taking a more active role...he is the FO genius of this organization...not Presti, not RC, not anyone else hired away by any other team...it's Pop. Pop the FO guy >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pop the coach.



Anybody that can't see that Hill easily has the tools and disposition to make it in the NBA is a fool...who simply doesn't understand the game or what factors play a part in a player making it in the NBA.

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:tu What he said...

I am sold on Hill and Gist, dunno enough about Hairston yet though...

Those who aren't sure what Hairston brings to the table need to go check the DX reports on his production as a senior and at the Orlando pre-draft camp. Out of our three picks, I think he may be the most ready for minutes. Hill will have an enormous learning curve and Gist lacks the fundamental skill level to play any minutes at SF right now other than as a defensive specialist. Hairston is a role-playing wing with great IQ who can contribute in multiple areas. I'm excited to see how he plays in Summer League.

Didn't all those teams passing on Parker demand some faith in POP/BC? Undersized guards appartently are harder to judge than prototype guards like Rose and Mayo. My gut tells me Hill is a guard clone of Bowens, where the technical parts don't equal the sum of the player. IN POP I TRUST!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by whottt

Bout time Pop put a stop to this wasted draft pick bullshit.


Right now I have to say Hill and Gist look like keepers to me.


Both of these guys have tons of NBA ability.

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You made several good points in your post. I knew people would warm up to Hill once they found out more about him. I had him on my draft list for the 2nd round so I was happy the Spurs got him, even though I questioned why they took him so early, especially with some of the talent still on the board. Overall, a good pick...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by whottt

The guy I am least convinced about is Hairston...

But even in his interview he has that same, if I don't like you I will stick this basketball up your ass, vibe, that you get from Udoka and Bruce.

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Hairston has really grown on me. I think Hairston and Hill have a good chance of making the team this year. Hairston is athletic (38 in vertical), versatile (can play PG, SG, SF), can shoot the rock (52.5 - FG% & 43.5 - 3P%), plays defense, is a 4 year college player, received his degree, is a good character guy off the court but has a nasty streak on the court, and did I mention he can also dunk. I’m telling you I think this guy is going to surprise a lot of Spurs fans. Gist on the other hand, I think has a lot of potential but is going to need at least a year in the DL.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by whottt

Glad to see Pop taking a more active role...he is the FO genius of this organization...not Presti, not RC, not anyone else hired away by any other team...it's Pop. Pop the FO guy >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pop the coach.

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I agree, when it comes to evaluating talent, Pop > Presti >>>>>>>>>> RC. This year’s early exit may have actually helped Spurs with the draft since it allowed Pop more time to look at the prospects.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mr. Body

He's shorter than Monta Ellis? Ugh.

I like the guy and am optimistic, but look at those high school gyms he played in for college. The rocket-fueled leap to the NBA and NBA players is immense. It may take four to five months for his head to stop spinning.

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That is totally fair and I agree. Hopefully it's not the case with Hill.

now you guys are praising him? lol I remember during draft night Most of you guys were going crazy with the pick

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheProfessor

Those who aren't sure what Hairston brings to the table need to go check the DX reports on his production as a senior and at the Orlando pre-draft camp. Out of our three picks, I think he may be the most ready for minutes. Hill will have an enormous learning curve and Gist lacks the fundamental skill level to play any minutes at SF right now other than as a defensive specialist. Hairston is a role-playing wing with great IQ who can contribute in multiple areas. I'm excited to see how he plays in Summer League.

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http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_yl...yhoo&type=lgns

{In the second round the Spurs took Phoenix to the cleaners simply for the price of moving up three spots in the draft. They landed the better player in the deal (Malik Hairston), picked up a future second-round pick and even managed to swindle some cash out of the Suns in the process. A very nice transaction. Hairston has a great chance to make this team and may develop into a contributor down the road if he can improve his perimeter defense skills.}

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sehui

now you guys are praising him? lol I remember during draft night Most of you guys were going crazy with the pick

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That is cuz, at least for me, I had never heard of the guy. After reading up on Hill, watching footage, etc... he has really growen on me.. I am convinced now that Pop and the FO made a good selection.

Potential Potential Potential.
You know who else had potential? Let me show you the list

oh sorry, the file size is over the upload limit! $(#)(()@*!!!

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Originally Posted by nil.ball

Potential Potential Potential.
You know who else had potential? Let me show you the list

oh sorry, the file size is over the upload limit! $(#)(()@*!!!

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Probably at the top of that list is T-Mac, but then again that's not our problem.

George Hill possesses athletic capabilities unparalleled by any other mere mortal.

George Hill can dunk two basketballs at the same time.
One for each basket on the court.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by whottt

Not when he's 6 fucking 2 and he's dunking with the ease of a guy 6'6 or taller...in game. Besides...it doesn't matter what it's due too...it matters that he does it easily.


Hill >>>>>>>>>>>> Vaginis

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well maybe this will shed some light on Spanoulis from the Rockets side.

Morey said he thought Billy had the potential to be the starting gaurd but that he had a hard time adjusting (we know this) and that he got down because of lack of playing time. What we did not know was that his mother was in Every meeting between Spanoulis and the front office and made call after call to the front office. CD and Morey wanted to keep him but things of course worked out well with Scola.

Someone need to tell Billy's mother to shut the F' up!

Judging by some highlights?

Ahh yeah :rolleyes

Quote:

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Originally Posted by polandprzem

Judging by some highlights?

Ahh yeah :rolleyes

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That's right I am a walking high light. Do you see Kobe has these kind highlight? That's right, he never played in the league where I played. Cause I am George Hill babe!

I will be laughing when he tries to drive in the lane against the Clippers to be stuffed by Chris Kaman.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Indazone

I will be laughing when he tries to drive in the lane against the Clippers to be stuffed by Chris Kaman.

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how would it be funny? It wouldn't be surprising at all considering Kaman averaged 2.8 blocks a game, third highest average in the NBA. Kaman averaged more blocks than either Yao or Duncan.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Indazone

I will be laughing when he tries to drive in the lane against the Clippers to be stuffed by Chris Kaman.

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I will be laughing when the Rockets get knocked out of the first round again. :toast

Not that I mind George Hill doing well. I really wish him well. It's just this multiple homer Gorge Hill who can't even spell his name right that draws my ire.

I bet this is the kinda threads that were made about Tony when we drafted him too.....huh?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Indazone

Not that I mind George Hill doing well. I really wish him well. It's just this multiple homer Gorge Hill who can't even spell his name right that draws my ire.

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Ire (n) {ây-er}- the act of looking for posts by a certain poster in order to point out how annoying poster is, while simultaneously being more annoying than said poster.