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Kinda in a debate with some people on his place in history, but its hard to speak about guys like Wilt, Russel, Dr. J, and West since I never really got to see them play. Even then all I've ever seen of f Bird vs Magic is on ESPN Classic and NBA TV, but I at least can that I have actually seen them.
Just curious to see where the older people would rank Duncan
Somewhere 3-6.
Are you talking about ranking him with every NBA player at any position? If so - I'd have to put him at 3 or 4. If you asked me to rank him at his position, he's a lock at #1 (hey, it is a Spurs' forum ;) )
Duncan is in the same neighborhood with Hakeem, Shaq, Bird, and Magic, looking up only at MJ, Wilt, and Kareem.
I mean the greatest players of all time, where would Duncan rank on that list?
I figured he would come in around 7-10 range right next to Shaq.
top 10
hmm MJ, Magic, Wilt, Bird , yep he will be 5. Maybe 6 , cause of Kareem
Behind Karl Malone.
Duncan is #1 on my list... just infront of the Admiral...
From an unbias point of view
He's behind Russell, Kareem, MJ, Wilt and Magic... on the same level as Bird, Hakeem, Shaq...
Best PF of all-time.
Top 10 player of all-time.
probably top 10.
IMO,
Russell
MJ
Magic
Wilt
Duncan
:rollinQuote:
Originally Posted by Tacker
Now you're the one on everyone's shitlist. :lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Tacker
12 - 15.
The thing that helps Duncan is that he's been so consistently good (and so have his teams) over the course of his career AND that he never had to face Jordan.
I'm pretty young so I really wouldn't know where to place him definitively. Ever since I started watching basketball in 1997 (which by chance was Duncans first year in L) there's only been two players I've seen play that I can say without a shadow of doubt are better than Duncan and should rank higher than Duncan on a list: Shaq and Jordan.
In the 6-10 range.
I list him behind Kwame Brown and both were drafted #1 overall and play the same position.....haha really he's top ten but with possibilities to be top 5
15-20
Top 15 for sure. As far as PF's, he's number 1. Magic Johnson was incredible. He was probably the second best player I ever saw play. How many players can move from Point Guard to Center in the biggest game of their lives and actually score 40 something points to win...on the road...for the title ?
Right now? Top 10. Call me in four years when he hangs up his kicks.
There's no way I can be objective about this. :)
Power Forward #1.
All-Time right now, top 5-8.
As far as all-time goes, like exstatic said let's see what he does with the rest of his career. I can easily see him moving up with another Title or two.
you guys go extreme
In my view, he is right behind
Chamberlain, Russell, Kareem, Jordan, Magic and Bird.... the Untouchables....
And he is in the same breath with Shaq.
Greatest Power Forward ever.
Overall, Top 5.
+2Quote:
Originally Posted by baseline bum
And, I agree best PF of all time.
Thing is players in the 6-15 range are all all-time greats and I can see an argument for many of them to be closer to 6 than closer to 15. It's definitely a subjective thing. But, without specifically making a list, I'd probably have Duncan in the lower half of the top 10 all time.
an argument can be made for top 5 but definitely top 10
Top 10. Best power forward of all time.
1. Jordan
2. Wilt
3. Russell
4. Duncan/Kareem
6. Magic
7. Bird
8. Oscar Robertson
9. Hakeem
10. Robinson/Shaq
Top PF without a doubt because Karl Malone was about as clutch in the postseason as ARod.
Hmmm, not bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by rj215
#1 PF All-Time
Top 10 All Time Great Player
Could easily climb a couple more spots if he wins another Championship or two
David Robinson is not close to being a top 10 player in the history of the NBA. Sorry guys.
If I have to say where i would say number 2 behind MJ but.....
NBA players now are better than before.It happens in every sport.Physically they are much better and they know more tactics,dribblings,defensive and offensive schemes....etc..The humanity progresses in all the aspects.
One more thing.Basketball is more important in other countries.Today we have the best players of the world in the NBA like yesterday but yesterday the world of basketball was small than today.
I like Bird but I'm pretty sure he would have more problems to be as greatness as he was today.Magic?I don't know. i would say Wilt never could score 100 today.Even I'm not sure if he could score 50. Bill Russell could be better than David robinson was? I don't think so.They played against kids in the 60's.Hard to say but it's true.
It's a joke to compare TD with any other PF of the history.even I believe TD could be the best center of the 50's-70's too.
How good could be the actual TD in the 60's? or in the 50's? Who could stop Kobe in the 70's? anyone in the early 80's? What about Lebron? Could Mikan play today in the NBA?
it's no real to compare players from different years if you are talking about who is better.Could Carl Lewis run faster than Tyson Gay? Well,He was not able to do it but who would say Tyson Gay is better than Carl Lewis was?
The better way to compare NBA players it's talking about tittles.But of course that's not real too because someones played with better teammates and they played against different players.
Wilt, Russell, Oscar, Elgin Baylor, among other greats could have easily played in the current era and be HOF dominant with respect to their athleticism, especially if you give them the same modern nutritional supplements, dietary regimens, weight training programs, and have them play basketball all year round. There were plenty of great athletes back in the 60s and 70s. The athletes today might be a little bigger and stronger, but that's because of modern advancements. Guarantee you that if Wilt was born in 1980, he'd be the most dominant player in the NBA right now. The guy was reported (and of course it's not documented) close to a 50 inch vertical, could high jump 6-foot-10, and ran a mile in under 5 minutes. Wilt was a freak. Oscar was a freak too. Elgin Baylor was a freak. If some of those players were born in this generation, they'd be right up there with the LeBrons and Dwight Howards athletically.
The Duncan/Shaq comparison is an interesting one. I would say Shaq at his absolute peak was the most unstoppable player of the last decade, but he took longer to reach that peak than Duncan did, and also his decline has been surprisingly fast and sudden-- in part maybe because of bad conditioning. Russell usually had better teams than Wilt, but I don't think that can be said of Duncan-- actually, it seems like Shaq has had more talent around him.
If you'd predicted at the end of the 2002 season that Duncan would finish his career with as many championships as Shaq, I think most people would have laughed and said no way. But right now, Duncan's chances of getting a 5th look better than Shaq's...
What he said.Quote:
Originally Posted by peskypesky
Increasingly, the consensus starting 5 is Magic, Jordan, Bird, Duncan, and debate amongst yourselves. But most people are of the opinion that Duncan is the best 4 to have played.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dynasty
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josepatches
Wow, that is funny. You are obviously very young and have no idea how good the players of the past were. That includes the 60's and 70's. If the Spurs have shown the world anything at all in the last 10 years, its that you don't have to be the most athletic team in the world to be the best.
Back in the day, there were less specialists. Players were basketball players and all of them were expected to know how to rebound, shoot, pass, make FT's, etc. Today, you have 1 dimensional players who get by on their athleticism alone because they really aren't the smartest players on the court and just aren't very skilled. Sure, they can dunk the ball and can jump but that's it.
Larry Bird was a bad ass in his day and would be again against any competition. He could do everything. He was a GREAT shooter and passer. He went head to head with MJ and Magic and Dominique in some classic battles. This isn't like Football. Those teams of the past were good but they wouldn't have the strength or speed to match up as well with today's teams. That's a whole different story.
As for David being Top 10 of all time ? No way. He wouldn't even put himself in that list. He was probably the most athletic Center who has ever played and perhaps Top 10 defensive player but Top 50 is where he belongs, not Top 10.
Best PF all time, top 10 player
Thank You..and I'm 37. Just so you don't think I'm living in the past or jockeying for my "generation". The Celtics, Lakers and Sixers teams of the Late 70's and 80's would absolutely kill some of the teams today...even without the supplements.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamStone
You want the old folks opinions? :)
To be objective and fair about this, it's probably best to wait until his career is over. The NBA had a list of the top 50 players after 50 years, but that was before Duncan was playing. I don't know why they didn't keep adding a player every year. Duncan would be on the list.
After reading this thread, I don't think I saw Julius Erving mentioned. Or Elgin Baylor. Or even Elvin Hayes. I don't think Duncan is better than any of those forwards in their prime.
I don't rate Bill Russell as high as some people do, nor do I put Shaq up there...
My top 10 would be probably....(Yeah, it's mostly older players, but these guys rocked and I did see them all play).
1) Wilt Chamberlain
2) Kareem Abdul Jabbar
3) Michael Jordan
4) Magic Johnson
5) Elgin Baylor
6) Oscar Robertson
7) Jerry West
8) Julius Erving
9) Larry Bird
10) Elvin Hayes
:rollinQuote:
Originally Posted by Lakers_55
Obviously you read the list as "name as many Lakers as possible", or rather, "name as many players as you can who got their ass kicked by Bill Russell." You would think if Wilt, Elgin, and West were all top ten, they would have been able to beat him just once.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lakers_55
Elvin Hayes? You must be joking. Dude was notorious for being non-clutch when he played. He was the Karl Malone of his day.
I have to agree. The only guy in NBA history to get 11 rings, the guy all of his contemporaries agreed was by far the greatest defender-- and he doesn't even crack the top 10?Quote:
Originally Posted by ShoogarBear
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShoogarBear
Well, it's my opinion. We're talking greatest players, not most titles. Michael Cooper has 5 rings, TD has 4. Is Cooper top 50? maybe top 1000. Russell had the teammates that West, Baylor, and Wilt didn't. Most of Wilt's success was done before he was a Laker. If you put Bird in the top 10 which I did, you must have Magic. I can't help it West and Baylor played for the Lakers. If I wanted more Lakers on the list, I would have added Shaq. Or Kobe. I don't think Kobe will ever crack the top 10, let alone top 20 or so. I think history will drop Shaq in the rankings. Outside of 5 feet away, he can't score. He can't even come close! Mikan is top 50 per the NBA, but he wasn't that great. The guy was the first big man in the league and just overpowered everyone. However, the key was 3 feet wide back then and he was a career 40% shooter from the field. Sorry, he wouldn't make it today.
Hayes in his prime was a beast. It's been a long time since I saw him play, but he was unstoppable. Also, I am the only one to mention Dr. J.
If you want to start a topic on the best players who were MVP's to their team, then Bill Russell has a good shot at top 10. So does TD. Until then, my list is reasonably accurate. Topic is about individual players.
Reasonably subjective. Its accuracy is far from reasonable.
Exactly.:toast I am an old guy that saw them all play, and I have great memories. I list players that most of you never saw play the game. Duncan belongs on the all time list that I mentioned the NBA needs to update. Some clown writer a few years ago thought the 50 number was set in stone and wanted to add players from the new generation and kick off a few from the original list. That defeats the purpose of the Top 50 players of the NBA at 50 years, which will become the NBA at 60...at 70...etc...Quote:
Originally Posted by JamStone
However he was smart enough to add TD to the 50.
I guess I throw more weight towards "guys who were the main factor in winning games that mattered", not "guys with lots of numbers in games that didn't". Certainly by your criteria, Kevin Garnett and Karl Malone should be top ten players above Hayes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lakers_55
Yeah, the only teammates West, Baylor, and Wilt had were . . . each other! :lmaoQuote:
Russell had the teammates that West, Baylor, and Wilt didn't.
So explain this math to me. If (West > Russell) + (Baylor > Russell) + (Chamberlain > Russell), then (Celtics stomping Lakers every year) must mean Cousy, Sam Jones, Heinsohn = Top Ten players?
Until it mattered. I'd be surprised if anyone on this board saw more of Elvin Hayes than I did. The guy was a talent, but he was also selfish and unclutch.Quote:
Hayes in his prime was a beast. It's been a long time since I saw him play, but he was unstoppable.
Any list with Elvin Hayes as a top ten player is just bad, sorry.
Shoog....
Hayes or Unseld?
Hmm....Wilt, West and Baylor were together "healthy" for 2 title runs. Boston was the 4th seed in the East in 1969 and sent Russell out a winner. It was a surprise they even made the finals. Lakers counted the title theirs before they won it. In 1969-70 Wilt went down with a probable season ending knee injury early in the season, but he came back at the end of the regular season. Against the Knicks in 1970, the Lakers coughed up a huge lead after Willis Reed went down in game 5. I still remember Walt Frazier picking Elgin Baylor blind for break away layups twice in succession when the Knicks made their run. LA didn't win the game when West tied it at the buzzer with his 59 footer and sent it to OT in game 3. Game 7 came around, Reed came back, and one of the greatest finals routs in history was on. That Knick team was predicted to be a dynasty. Well, they were good a few more years, but Reed was injured a lot. With a squad of Reed, Frazier, Monroe, Bradley, Lucas, and Debusschere they were one of the best teams in history over a short period.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShoogarBear
Baylor and West were both out injured when the 1971 playoffs started. Lakers did beat Chicago in 7 games before succcumbing to Lew Alcindor and the Big O of Milwaukee in 5 games. Elgin retired 9 games into the 1971-2 season after he was told he was being moved to the bench in favor of Jim McMillian. Lakers promptly won 33 games in a row, and Baylor appears in the team photo later that year, and got a championship ring.
Hey, I don't expect everyone to agree with me about Hayes. As to your math question, I believe I already answered this. Discussion is about individual players, not role players that were better than the other team's role players therefore elevating a non top 10 player of all time to the top 10.
Hayes was the better talent, but if I was looking for a piece to a team, I'd rather have Unseld. Guy was a monster rebounder, among the top 2-3 passing centers when he played, had the best outlet pass in the game (maybe ever), and before he wrecked his knees was a solid defender (even after that he was a pretty crafty one despite being severely undersized).Quote:
Originally Posted by samikeyp
Imagine if Oberto was about five times the rebounder he is now and twice the defender and that would approximate Unseld.
:tuQuote:
Originally Posted by ShoogarBear
:lol at Hayes/Erving/West/Baylor > Tim DuncanQuote:
Originally Posted by Lakers_55
None of those players belong in the top ten.
Let's see.
1. MJ
2. Wilt
3. Magic
4. Bird
5. Kareem
6. Hakeem
7. Duncan
Ok...top 7.
DD
1) Chamberlain
2) Russell
3) Jordan
4) Jabbar
5) Bird
6) Magic
7) Duncan
8) Robertson
9) O'Neal
10) Irving
1. Jordan
2. Russell
3. Abdul-Jabbar
4. Chamberlain
5. Magic
6. Duncan
7. Bird
8. Robertson
9. O'Neal
10. Hakeem
glad most posters agree with me, duncan is definitely somewhere in the 6-10 range.
6 or 7.
Behind Olajuwan :downspin:Quote:
Originally Posted by SScarrJ
cause he is not eliteQuote:
Originally Posted by 4cc
:rolleyes
dont know bout yall but ive been watching basketball since 73, ive seen to many greats to be able to place duncan anywhere, until he is gone and im almost gone...then and only then will i have an answer for your question
Duncan is ok but he cannot be in the top ten, i put tony parker ahead of him.
Top 5
top 5.
Jordan
Magic
Bird
Duncan
Vince Carter
jk about the VC part. seriously id probably say... its a toss-up between Kareem, Hakeem, or Shaq
#1 PF, But everyone included definately top 5!!
1. Magic Johnson
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Michael Jordan
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Tim Duncan
6. Shaquille O'Neal
7. Hakeem Olajuwon
8. Larry Bird
9. Oscar Robertson
10.David Robinson
Whether this is popular or not Karl was better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacker
Dave and Tim Are not top ten players. Neither was better than Charles Barkley. If he is not top ten then they are way down the list. Everyone Judges this by championships. That is flawed reasoning. It doesn't ask who won more it asks who was better. If Duncans career was during the Jordan era he wouldn't have won either.Quote:
Originally Posted by slayermin
Sure are quite a few Lakers on that list of yours! :lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Lakers_55
I'd say Tim is the greatest power forward and top 10 without a shred of a doubt, probably closer to top 5.
1) MJ
2) Kareem
3) Magic
4) Russell
5) Timmy
6) Shaq
7) Bird
8) Hakeem
9) Wilt
10) Isiah Lord
So I guess Hakeem shouldnt be top 10 either? He never won shit while Jordan played.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Franchise
Barkley>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hakeem, right?
No but he's better than Duncan.Quote:
Originally Posted by mardigan
1. Jordan
2. Chamberlain
3. Abdul-Jabbar
4. Robertson
6. Duncan
7. Magic
8. Baylor
9. Hayes
10. Russell
The more I thought about this I changed some of the rankings.
The most dominate players were the ones that played closer to the basket.
Jordan was an exception that he won without a star center thats why I ranked hinm first.
Robertson was a triple double machine and deserves a top ranking because he did so much for his team.
And Magic was a pg who could play many positions if he had to, a special talent.
:lolQuote:
Originally Posted by The Franchise
He won less titles with better teams.
But keep telling yourself that.
This a not a knock on Duncan. I think Duncan is a great player, but he is being rated way to high here.
:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmaoQuote:
Originally Posted by The Franchise
:lmao
Duncan is slightly overated..take away manu or parker...(the nba lockdown year cannot count as a legit ring) = 0 rings.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Franchise
There's been a better 2-way power forward in the history of the NBA?Quote:
Originally Posted by The Franchise
#1 PF, #8 all time
No duncan is the difference between a championship level team and a bottom feeding lottery team. Manu and Parker are not that good to keep the spurs out of the lottery without Duncan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kobe>Duncan
Someone already mentioned that and I addressed the question. Did you read this thread? Poster asked for opinions. I gave mine. No one is right, it's all subjective. However, I am one of the few people participating that saw all these giants actually play. I know one thing, I sure took some heat for my opnions. That's ok, we're here to discuss and as long as the arguments have content, it's all good. I picked Elvin Hayes but a detractor of his saw him play more than I did. All I know is he was one of a few players that always beat his season averages when he played against the Lakers.Quote:
Originally Posted by GrandeDavid
this is why i said overated!Quote:
Originally Posted by rascal
You don't read well, do you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kobe>Duncan
so are you a spurs fan or not? obviously you haven't followed the spurs very long if you haveQuote:
Originally Posted by Kobe>Duncan
Top ten - 7th
Russell
MJ
Kareem
Magic
Bird
Chamberlain
Duncan
Bill Russell was a great defensive player but he is way overrated by most people.
You gotta do it on both ends of the court to crack the top ten, imo.
LOL @ Duncan without Manu and Parker..did that person miss out on 2003? that was one of the top 3 worst supporting casts for a championship team in NBA history, only next to Hakeem in 1993 and Rick Barry from the 70's..The Admiral was nearly done at that point, and Parker and Manu were just role players..some people just don't know anything about the NBA..
some of us are being biased though..Duncan isn't a top 5 player of all-time, that's a stretch..
tier 1 is undoubtedly(IMO) Jordan, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Magic and Bird, in no particular order(except Russell being last out of those for me)..the next tier for me would have to be Shaq, Hakeem and Duncan..I'd say Timmy is at #10, but unlike Shaq, he still has a few years at the end of his prime, where he can bring in a 5th ring and some accolades..
Kobe without Shaq = 0 ringsQuote:
Originally Posted by Kobe>Duncan
Kobe without Shaq = trying to get traded
Kobe without Shaq = even more horrible teammate
Duncan is the heart and soul of the Spurs. He's won with so many different teammates over the years. He saves his best for the postseason.....why am I even explaining this....
EasilyQuote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Bottomtooth
(first 5 in any order you would like) = Jabbar, Jordan, Russell, O. Robinson, Chamberlain, Bird, Magic and next is Tim Duncan (8) with Malone, K. Bryant, E. Baylor right below him.
Number 1
How can Tim be the greatest pf of all time and not be in the top five of all time? If he's the best 4 that ever played than this by definition makes him a top five player. Ahead of anybody at the position. I'd put K. Malone and Elvin Hayes right behind him though.
No question Tim is a top five player of all time. And he's not done yet. I foresee at least two more Championships for him when it's all said and done.
Top 7 for sure.
There is the NBA all-time team.
Then above that is the NBA Duncan elite team.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bresilhac
I think I know what you are getting at..But if you were to make a list of the top 10 football players that ever played would you have to list a Tight End or an offensive lineman ? No, you might have 4 QB's in your top 10 list. That's why Duncan isn't top 10 necessarily.
MJ - Guard
Magic - Guard
Oscar Robertson - Guard
Wilt Chamberlin - Center
Bill Russell - Center
I'm not saying these are my top 5, I'm just using them as an example to my point.
Yeah, you get it. Explained further below. If a player makes everyone's top 10 list, he is probably top 10. If he is left off enough "ballots" he may not be.Quote:
Originally Posted by slayermin
This thread is very interesting. Naturally, there will usually be bias towards newer players. Which is why some people may rate LeBron ahead of MJ eventually, simply because they saw him play and didn't see Michael do his stuff.
I have also pointed out this topic is about individual players, not how many titles they won because their teammates were better. Looking at baseball, how many titles did Ernie Banks win? Nolan Ryan can be argued as one of the greatest pitchers in history. He got one championship when he was young, as a bullpen player for the 69 Mets. He probably would have won plenty of Cy Young awards if his Angel teams were better. That award usually went to pitchers who helped their teams make the playoffs. Anyway, Ryan finally earned respect due to his longevity of greatness. If you use the term no-hitter, you think of Nolan Ryan. If you think strikeout, Nolan Ryan comes up again. Going to Texas to play probably lengthened his career, and his excellence.
I am still surprised no one is discussing the pros and cons of Julius Erving. Certainly there are other older fans on this board that remember what he could do! Certainly you have all seen his move to the basket in the video below at the 1 minute mark. Michael Jordan makes comments near the end.:
Trying REALLY hard to be objective, and taking into account that I am 35:
1. Jordan
2. Wilt
3. Russell
4. Kareem
6. Magic
7. Bird
8. Duncan
9. Oscar Robinson
10. Snaq
Anyone that doesnt have Russell and Chamberlain in their top 2 or 3 has no notion of the history of the game.
Russell was the common and key component of 11 World Titles.
Chamberlain over a 14 year career averaged 30/23/4. He went to the finals 5 times and won 2 titles and was perennial in the conference finals on the other years accruing 160 playoff games. One season he averaged 50/26/2. Another he went 24/24/9 which led the league in assists. He scored 100 points in a game; he grabbed 50 rebounds in another. He averaged 48.5 minutes one season. He led the league in points 7 times, rebounding 11 times, FG% 9 times, minutes played 9 times.
:lol I love reading threads like this. Fans of other teams making themselves look foolish and jealous. Get over it. Tim is top 10 and best pf of all time