an argument can be made for top 5 but definitely top 10
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an argument can be made for top 5 but definitely top 10
Top 10. Best power forward of all time.
1. Jordan
2. Wilt
3. Russell
4. Duncan/Kareem
6. Magic
7. Bird
8. Oscar Robertson
9. Hakeem
10. Robinson/Shaq
Top PF without a doubt because Karl Malone was about as clutch in the postseason as ARod.
Hmmm, not bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by rj215
#1 PF All-Time
Top 10 All Time Great Player
Could easily climb a couple more spots if he wins another Championship or two
David Robinson is not close to being a top 10 player in the history of the NBA. Sorry guys.
If I have to say where i would say number 2 behind MJ but.....
NBA players now are better than before.It happens in every sport.Physically they are much better and they know more tactics,dribblings,defensive and offensive schemes....etc..The humanity progresses in all the aspects.
One more thing.Basketball is more important in other countries.Today we have the best players of the world in the NBA like yesterday but yesterday the world of basketball was small than today.
I like Bird but I'm pretty sure he would have more problems to be as greatness as he was today.Magic?I don't know. i would say Wilt never could score 100 today.Even I'm not sure if he could score 50. Bill Russell could be better than David robinson was? I don't think so.They played against kids in the 60's.Hard to say but it's true.
It's a joke to compare TD with any other PF of the history.even I believe TD could be the best center of the 50's-70's too.
How good could be the actual TD in the 60's? or in the 50's? Who could stop Kobe in the 70's? anyone in the early 80's? What about Lebron? Could Mikan play today in the NBA?
it's no real to compare players from different years if you are talking about who is better.Could Carl Lewis run faster than Tyson Gay? Well,He was not able to do it but who would say Tyson Gay is better than Carl Lewis was?
The better way to compare NBA players it's talking about tittles.But of course that's not real too because someones played with better teammates and they played against different players.
Wilt, Russell, Oscar, Elgin Baylor, among other greats could have easily played in the current era and be HOF dominant with respect to their athleticism, especially if you give them the same modern nutritional supplements, dietary regimens, weight training programs, and have them play basketball all year round. There were plenty of great athletes back in the 60s and 70s. The athletes today might be a little bigger and stronger, but that's because of modern advancements. Guarantee you that if Wilt was born in 1980, he'd be the most dominant player in the NBA right now. The guy was reported (and of course it's not documented) close to a 50 inch vertical, could high jump 6-foot-10, and ran a mile in under 5 minutes. Wilt was a freak. Oscar was a freak too. Elgin Baylor was a freak. If some of those players were born in this generation, they'd be right up there with the LeBrons and Dwight Howards athletically.
The Duncan/Shaq comparison is an interesting one. I would say Shaq at his absolute peak was the most unstoppable player of the last decade, but he took longer to reach that peak than Duncan did, and also his decline has been surprisingly fast and sudden-- in part maybe because of bad conditioning. Russell usually had better teams than Wilt, but I don't think that can be said of Duncan-- actually, it seems like Shaq has had more talent around him.
If you'd predicted at the end of the 2002 season that Duncan would finish his career with as many championships as Shaq, I think most people would have laughed and said no way. But right now, Duncan's chances of getting a 5th look better than Shaq's...
What he said.Quote:
Originally Posted by peskypesky
Increasingly, the consensus starting 5 is Magic, Jordan, Bird, Duncan, and debate amongst yourselves. But most people are of the opinion that Duncan is the best 4 to have played.
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Originally Posted by Dynasty
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Originally Posted by Josepatches
Wow, that is funny. You are obviously very young and have no idea how good the players of the past were. That includes the 60's and 70's. If the Spurs have shown the world anything at all in the last 10 years, its that you don't have to be the most athletic team in the world to be the best.
Back in the day, there were less specialists. Players were basketball players and all of them were expected to know how to rebound, shoot, pass, make FT's, etc. Today, you have 1 dimensional players who get by on their athleticism alone because they really aren't the smartest players on the court and just aren't very skilled. Sure, they can dunk the ball and can jump but that's it.
Larry Bird was a bad ass in his day and would be again against any competition. He could do everything. He was a GREAT shooter and passer. He went head to head with MJ and Magic and Dominique in some classic battles. This isn't like Football. Those teams of the past were good but they wouldn't have the strength or speed to match up as well with today's teams. That's a whole different story.
As for David being Top 10 of all time ? No way. He wouldn't even put himself in that list. He was probably the most athletic Center who has ever played and perhaps Top 10 defensive player but Top 50 is where he belongs, not Top 10.
Best PF all time, top 10 player
Thank You..and I'm 37. Just so you don't think I'm living in the past or jockeying for my "generation". The Celtics, Lakers and Sixers teams of the Late 70's and 80's would absolutely kill some of the teams today...even without the supplements.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamStone
You want the old folks opinions? :)
To be objective and fair about this, it's probably best to wait until his career is over. The NBA had a list of the top 50 players after 50 years, but that was before Duncan was playing. I don't know why they didn't keep adding a player every year. Duncan would be on the list.
After reading this thread, I don't think I saw Julius Erving mentioned. Or Elgin Baylor. Or even Elvin Hayes. I don't think Duncan is better than any of those forwards in their prime.
I don't rate Bill Russell as high as some people do, nor do I put Shaq up there...
My top 10 would be probably....(Yeah, it's mostly older players, but these guys rocked and I did see them all play).
1) Wilt Chamberlain
2) Kareem Abdul Jabbar
3) Michael Jordan
4) Magic Johnson
5) Elgin Baylor
6) Oscar Robertson
7) Jerry West
8) Julius Erving
9) Larry Bird
10) Elvin Hayes
:rollinQuote:
Originally Posted by Lakers_55
Obviously you read the list as "name as many Lakers as possible", or rather, "name as many players as you can who got their ass kicked by Bill Russell." You would think if Wilt, Elgin, and West were all top ten, they would have been able to beat him just once.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lakers_55
Elvin Hayes? You must be joking. Dude was notorious for being non-clutch when he played. He was the Karl Malone of his day.
I have to agree. The only guy in NBA history to get 11 rings, the guy all of his contemporaries agreed was by far the greatest defender-- and he doesn't even crack the top 10?Quote:
Originally Posted by ShoogarBear
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShoogarBear
Well, it's my opinion. We're talking greatest players, not most titles. Michael Cooper has 5 rings, TD has 4. Is Cooper top 50? maybe top 1000. Russell had the teammates that West, Baylor, and Wilt didn't. Most of Wilt's success was done before he was a Laker. If you put Bird in the top 10 which I did, you must have Magic. I can't help it West and Baylor played for the Lakers. If I wanted more Lakers on the list, I would have added Shaq. Or Kobe. I don't think Kobe will ever crack the top 10, let alone top 20 or so. I think history will drop Shaq in the rankings. Outside of 5 feet away, he can't score. He can't even come close! Mikan is top 50 per the NBA, but he wasn't that great. The guy was the first big man in the league and just overpowered everyone. However, the key was 3 feet wide back then and he was a career 40% shooter from the field. Sorry, he wouldn't make it today.
Hayes in his prime was a beast. It's been a long time since I saw him play, but he was unstoppable. Also, I am the only one to mention Dr. J.
If you want to start a topic on the best players who were MVP's to their team, then Bill Russell has a good shot at top 10. So does TD. Until then, my list is reasonably accurate. Topic is about individual players.
Reasonably subjective. Its accuracy is far from reasonable.
Exactly.:toast I am an old guy that saw them all play, and I have great memories. I list players that most of you never saw play the game. Duncan belongs on the all time list that I mentioned the NBA needs to update. Some clown writer a few years ago thought the 50 number was set in stone and wanted to add players from the new generation and kick off a few from the original list. That defeats the purpose of the Top 50 players of the NBA at 50 years, which will become the NBA at 60...at 70...etc...Quote:
Originally Posted by JamStone
However he was smart enough to add TD to the 50.
I guess I throw more weight towards "guys who were the main factor in winning games that mattered", not "guys with lots of numbers in games that didn't". Certainly by your criteria, Kevin Garnett and Karl Malone should be top ten players above Hayes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lakers_55
Yeah, the only teammates West, Baylor, and Wilt had were . . . each other! :lmaoQuote:
Russell had the teammates that West, Baylor, and Wilt didn't.
So explain this math to me. If (West > Russell) + (Baylor > Russell) + (Chamberlain > Russell), then (Celtics stomping Lakers every year) must mean Cousy, Sam Jones, Heinsohn = Top Ten players?
Until it mattered. I'd be surprised if anyone on this board saw more of Elvin Hayes than I did. The guy was a talent, but he was also selfish and unclutch.Quote:
Hayes in his prime was a beast. It's been a long time since I saw him play, but he was unstoppable.
Any list with Elvin Hayes as a top ten player is just bad, sorry.
Shoog....
Hayes or Unseld?
Hmm....Wilt, West and Baylor were together "healthy" for 2 title runs. Boston was the 4th seed in the East in 1969 and sent Russell out a winner. It was a surprise they even made the finals. Lakers counted the title theirs before they won it. In 1969-70 Wilt went down with a probable season ending knee injury early in the season, but he came back at the end of the regular season. Against the Knicks in 1970, the Lakers coughed up a huge lead after Willis Reed went down in game 5. I still remember Walt Frazier picking Elgin Baylor blind for break away layups twice in succession when the Knicks made their run. LA didn't win the game when West tied it at the buzzer with his 59 footer and sent it to OT in game 3. Game 7 came around, Reed came back, and one of the greatest finals routs in history was on. That Knick team was predicted to be a dynasty. Well, they were good a few more years, but Reed was injured a lot. With a squad of Reed, Frazier, Monroe, Bradley, Lucas, and Debusschere they were one of the best teams in history over a short period.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShoogarBear
Baylor and West were both out injured when the 1971 playoffs started. Lakers did beat Chicago in 7 games before succcumbing to Lew Alcindor and the Big O of Milwaukee in 5 games. Elgin retired 9 games into the 1971-2 season after he was told he was being moved to the bench in favor of Jim McMillian. Lakers promptly won 33 games in a row, and Baylor appears in the team photo later that year, and got a championship ring.
Hey, I don't expect everyone to agree with me about Hayes. As to your math question, I believe I already answered this. Discussion is about individual players, not role players that were better than the other team's role players therefore elevating a non top 10 player of all time to the top 10.
Hayes was the better talent, but if I was looking for a piece to a team, I'd rather have Unseld. Guy was a monster rebounder, among the top 2-3 passing centers when he played, had the best outlet pass in the game (maybe ever), and before he wrecked his knees was a solid defender (even after that he was a pretty crafty one despite being severely undersized).Quote:
Originally Posted by samikeyp
Imagine if Oberto was about five times the rebounder he is now and twice the defender and that would approximate Unseld.