Use this thread to post something intelligent...

....because the rest of the "San Antonio Spurs" forum of SpursTalk.com has raised its level of insanity and stupidity to 9 out of 10 (up from its typical offseason level of 7 out of 10).

As of this typing, the most active threads indicate that:

-Manu Ginobili, who was just voted the #6 Spur of all time, and will one day have his number 20 hanging in the rafters, should be traded immediately

-A poll that indicates that 50% of Spurstalk posters believe that R.C. Buford should resign (apparently because an NBA championship and a berth in the Western Conference Finals isn't successful enough over the last two years)

-Anyone who doesn't support the USA Basketball team with 110% of their cheering is apparently about the same as a terrorist

-Players proudly representing their home country (unless that country is the United States) is the worst thing since unsliced bread

-Luis Scola is the best thing since sliced bread (and apparently, based on what I'm reading, this guy is as good as Michael Jordan and Wilt Chamberlain combined...which I think places him as the 2nd greatest basketball player of all time, slightly ahead of James White and slightly behind James Gist)

So, with all this chaos going on in the outside world, you can use this thread to shelter yourself for a while. Only well thought-out, well reasoned, intelligent posts here please. If you're tempted to post something that doesn't fit the above description, slowly back away and return to the rest of the forum, where that sort of behavior is tolerated.

I'll start things off by simply posting Manu's season averages from last year:

31.0 MPG, 46% FG, 40.1% 3PT-FG, 86.0% FT, 4.8 RPG, 4.5 APG, 1.5 SPG, 2.70 TO per game, and 19.5 PPG

This included career highs in MPG, 3PT%, FT%, RPG, APG, and PPG

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/emanue...eer_stats.html


I understand fan's worries about his injuries, but how can anyone in their right mind think that Manu is declining?

There have been a series of underwhelming acquisitions and resignings this off-season...from paying Mason $4M/yr to drafting Hill to re-upping Finley.

Successes, and I use that as a relative term, include resigning Kurt Thomas and drafting James Gist (though letting him play in Europe may have been a gaffe).

They let go of Barry and brought in Mason. Udoka should be better, but we might see some decline w/ Bowen. Hill will be as much of a factor as Washington and Stoudamire were for the Spurs last year. Thomas should be more comfortable in the system but is a year older (slower). And Finley is...well Finley.

All in all, I'd say the Spurs played a "zero sum" game with this off-season.

But, having said that...the Spurs will still be in contention for the NBA title provided Tim, Tony, and Manu can stay healthy for most of the year (especially in the post-season).

Good post, Lurker23.

I am not delusional. I didn't pick the Spurs to win last season and I don't think they have a shot to win this season if they play defensively the way they have the past two seasons. Team defense, or go fishing. (See Boston)

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Originally Posted by lurker23

....because the rest of the "San Antonio Spurs" forum of SpursTalk.com has raised its level of insanity and stupidity to 9 out of 10 (down from its typical offseason level of 7 out of 10).

As of this typing, the most active threads indicate that:

-Manu Ginobili, who was just voted the #6 Spur of all time, and will one day have his number 20 hanging in the rafters, should be traded immediately

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Voted on Spurstalk by posters who I suspect are very young/recent to the franchise. Ginobili understood the risks taken by competing and he's a fair guy. He knows the NBA is a business and he messed up in accordance with his employer's best interest.

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-A poll that indicates that 50% of Spurstalk posters believe that R.C. Buford should resign (apparently because an NBA championship and a berth in the Western Conference Finals isn't successful enough over the last two years)

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Sometimes change is necessary. Notice how Byron Scott was fired after leading the Nets to 2 back to back Finals appearances. Personally I hate the "what have you done for me lately" mentality but you also can't rely on previous successes to justify current failures. The recent draft picks have been a nightmare. Parker and Ginobili have been good for us but they seem to have been anomalies.

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-Anyone who doesn't support the USA Basketball team with 110% of their cheering is apparently about the same as a terrorist

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It's not about cheering for the US, it's about not cheering against the US. Some people don't like the reasons certain players went (James, to be rich and do business in China) or the character of the players (Kobe, an accused rapist) and that is fine, but expressly hoping for their failure is different.

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-Players proudly representing their home country (unless that country is the United States) is the worst thing since unsliced bread

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I agree that it should be consistent. Can't speak for everyone though. Perhaps no NBA players should compete and it should be more like Team USA in baseball - all college players.

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-Luis Scola is the best thing since sliced bread (and apparently, based on what I'm reading, this guy is as good as Michael Jordan and Wilt Chamberlain combined...which I think places him as the 2nd greatest basketball player of all time, slightly ahead of James White and slightly behind James Gist)

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I think most people are just lamenting what could have been. See: above part on RC Buford

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So, with all this chaos going on in the outside world, you can use this thread to shelter yourself for a while. Only well thought-out, well reasoned, intelligent posts here please. If you're tempted to post something that doesn't fit the above description, slowly back away and return to the rest of the forum, where that sort of behavior is tolerated.

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I hope this was sufficient.

i r nawt undrstind mano ingery y he play on bad ankal if whin dat teem no pay moni 2 him

I am sure you are well aware, but this thread is going to be a lightning rod for all that idiocy.

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Originally Posted by sabar

I am sure you are well aware, but this thread is going to be a lightning rod for all that idiocy.

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I'm surprised it made 5 posts before someone did this...

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Originally Posted by Brutalis

i r nawt undrstind mano ingery y he play on bad ankal if whin dat teem no pay moni 2 him

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Dayum. Just 69 posts and lurker23 is already calling the shots.

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Originally Posted by Mr.Bottomtooth

Dayum. Just 69 posts and lurker23 is already calling the shots.

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:lmao

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Originally Posted by lurker

Luis Scola is the best thing since sliced bread (and apparently, based on what I'm reading, this guy is as good as Michael Jordan and Wilt Chamberlain combined...which I think places him as the 2nd greatest basketball player of all time, slightly ahead of James White and slightly behind James Gist)

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:lmao

hill better be the real deal

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Originally Posted by ducks

hill better be the real deal

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you have no business around the word intelligent you frickin retard.

^ ^ ^ ^

Thread derailed. Usual suspects.

annnnd it begins

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Originally Posted by Mr.Bottomtooth

Dayum. Just 69 posts and lurker23 is already calling the shots.

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:lol I was just hoping for some decent ground rules for a single thread. While it's obvious that I don't care for what's going on out there in most of the rest of the forum, I can't do much about the 37,000+ other threads.

Now back on topic, everyone. It's a pretty open-ended topic, after all. :toast

Spot on with everything, but I disagree with the national team part.

The worry is legit.

The Spurs are two pieces a way from a really strong title run.

1) A healthy team.
2) a 4th scoring option that can give a consistent 12 ppg. (Mason looks like he is as good as it gets in that department.)

mason is a good 4 option

what they need is a 3 star and manu was that player but now he is hurt again

thanks to stupidty

here we go again

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Originally Posted by v2freak

Sometimes change is necessary. Notice how Byron Scott was fired after leading the Nets to 2 back to back Finals appearances. Personally I hate the "what have you done for me lately" mentality but you also can't rely on previous successes to justify current failures. The recent draft picks have been a nightmare. Parker and Ginobili have been good for us but they seem to have been anomalies.

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You realize that is the worst example you could come up with to validate your theory

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Originally Posted by san antonio spurs

You realize that is the worst example you could come up with to validate your theory

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How so? Byron Scott is a good coach but the system just wasn't enough to get them past the best of the west. When Lawrence Frank came around, the Nets became energized.

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Originally Posted by v2freak

How so? Byron Scott is a good coach but the system just wasn't enough to get them past the best of the west. When Lawrence Frank came around, the Nets became energized.

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The Nets were energized for a very short time, but are now an extremely mediocre team. The Spurs, using the same parameters, have been energized for over a decade. The Spurs' off-year-- losing in the WCF-- was at least as impressive (coming against better competition) as the Nets' best years, when they won the ECF.

The expectations are skewed, and I'm fine with that. I'd rather the Spurs be the victims of their own great success, and listen to fans call for the head of the GM and coach every time they don't win the NBA championship than root for a team like the Nets, whose fans every summer cross their fingers and hope to make the playoffs.

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Originally Posted by SequSpur

you have no business around the word intelligent you frickin retard.

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you don't talk to someone like that who has a bigger post count!

From here on out I will never be able to watch a Spurs game and not think about the possibility of Ginobili injuring his ankle. My feeling of awe whenever Ginobili does something spectacular will now be accompanied by a constant feeling of worry.

does marcellus wallace look like a bitch??

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Originally Posted by lurker23

....
-A poll that indicates that 50% of Spurstalk posters believe that R.C. Buford should resign (apparently because an NBA championship and a berth in the Western Conference Finals isn't successful enough over the last two years)
.

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it's all because of Duncan that the spurs have success but Buford in the last years does not help to the spurs he is just hurt the spurs - how you can trade Scola who was the best big man in Europe for nothing, everyone knew that it gonna be a bad for the spurs but Buford, with Scola i'm pretty sure that we beating the lakers this year. not be able to sign Splitter while other GM Sign there own European draft pick (Rudy - Portland, Dragic - suns).
letting Portland screw you in draft night and left with a PG who is no more than a second rounder - and why to waste a first rounder on a back up PG at must when you can find a back up PG in FA or even in the second round and pass on players who has great potential(Green to example who could be our 3for the future).
also give up a first draft pick for a 36 years old big man who has little left in him - it's too much.
whan is the last time Buford made trade that is good for the spurs!! and also can't sign a significant FA!
also give Bonner who can't play a long contract!!

R.C Buford need to take responsibility for all his mistakes and resign, you can't live forever for two good draft picks that you made years ago!!

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Originally Posted by lurker23

....because the rest of the "San Antonio Spurs" forum of SpursTalk.com has raised its level of insanity and stupidity to 9 out of 10 (up from its typical offseason level of 7 out of 10).

As of this typing, the most active threads indicate that:

-Manu Ginobili, who was just voted the #6 Spur of all time, and will one day have his number 20 hanging in the rafters, should be traded immediately

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why not trade duncan and tony as well and call yerselves geniuses.

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-A poll that indicates that 50% of Spurstalk posters believe that R.C. Buford should resign (apparently because an NBA championship and a berth in the Western Conference Finals isn't successful enough over the last two years)

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it also indicates that 50% of Spurstalk posters either don't give a shit or think its stupid.

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-Anyone who doesn't support the USA Basketball team with 110% of their cheering is apparently about the same as a terrorist

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call me a terrorist then.

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-Players proudly representing their home country (unless that country is the United States) is the worst thing since unsliced bread

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i disagree. the left-handed power saw is the worst, if there is such a thing.

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-Luis Scola is the best thing since sliced bread (and apparently, based on what I'm reading, this guy is as good as Michael Jordan and Wilt Chamberlain combined...which I think places him as the 2nd greatest basketball player of all time, slightly ahead of James White and slightly behind James Gist)

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he is?

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So, with all this chaos going on in the outside world, you can use this thread to shelter yourself for a while. Only well thought-out, well reasoned, intelligent posts here please. If you're tempted to post something that doesn't fit the above description, slowly back away and return to the rest of the forum, where that sort of behavior is tolerated.

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oops. too late.

props to lurker! he is da man! :tu

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Originally Posted by kobyz

R.C Buford need to take responsibility for all his mistakes and resign, you can't live forever for two good draft picks that you made years ago!!

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Your arguments are based on a lot more speculation than you probably realize. Let's break it down a bit.

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how you can trade Scola who was the best big man in Europe for nothing, everyone knew that it gonna be a bad for the spurs but Buford

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I guess I'll start by conceding that the Scola trade was far from the best trade in the history of the NBA. I could try to make some paltry justifications here such as maybe the money we saved from the luxury tax was reused to sign Kurt Thomas, but I won't bother too much. I'll just say that while most of us wish the whole Scola situation had gone differently, almost none of us really know everything that happened behind the scenes, including player/organization relationships, attitudes, requests, or demands. This may not be a valid excuse, but we should at least concede that we'll probably never know every piece of information that went into making the decision.

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not be able to sign Splitter while other GM Sign there own European draft pick (Rudy - Portland, Dragic - suns).

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First rounders have a set pay scale. There's nothing GMs can do about this. Dragic was a 2nd round rounder, so the Suns could negotiate with him. As for Rudy vs. Tiago, you have to think this comes down to the personalities of the players. They would both receive similar money in the NBA, and both were offered similar money overseas, if I recall correctly. So, what would you have RC do? I'm sure Tiago realized he would get playing time with this team. Perhaps another GM would be more aggressive or enthusiastic in their recruitment, but in the end it's up to the personality of the player as to whether they choose the "NBA dream" or the almighty dollar (or euro).

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letting Portland screw you in draft night and left with a PG who is no more than a second rounder - and why to waste a first rounder on a back up PG at must when you can find a back up PG in FA or even in the second round and pass on players who has great potential(Green to example who could be our 3for the future).

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No one knows how any of these draft picks will turn out. Not you, not me, not the NBA GMs. The Spurs targeted a young, backup PG in the draft, probably because they felt that was the position that it would be easiest to get an immediate upgrade, and they picked the one that they felt was best for the team. Why decide that this was a bad pick before the kid plays even one game? Simply because you didn't recognize his name among the guys with more national television exposure? (I'm glad the Spurs picked Parker over more recognizable names like Terence Morris, Brian Scalabrine, Earl Watson, Eric Chenowith, and Loren Woods.) Sure, maybe Hill doesn't have as much "upside" as a lot of the players the Spurs passed over, but he is more likely to contribute to the team in the next 2 years than any SF would be, and how often is that "upside" really met anyway?

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also give up a first draft pick for a 36 years old big man who has little left in him - it's too much.

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Who says he has little left in him? Did you watch the games he played with the Spurs last year? He will be a solid contributor with the Spurs, and will provide a great veteran presence on the front line, IMO. How were we going to get that kind of production from a 2009 draft pick? There won't be any big men capable of contributing at Thomas's level in '09-'10 available in the 20s of next year's first round.

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whan is the last time Buford made trade that is good for the spurs!! and also can't sign a significant FA!

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Obviously based on my opinions above, I think the Kurt Thomas trade was a good trade. You want better pieces than Thomas? You're going to have to give up a lot more than people on this board have suggested- no one is going to give the Spurs a Pau Gasol.

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also give Bonner who can't play a long contract!!

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Finally, what evidence do you have that Bonner can't play? A more reasonable argument might be that "Pop won't play him," but then the acquisition is more Pop's fault than RC's. His rebounds per 48 minutes are on par with a lot of other role player big men. In a three point competition last year, all of the Spurs took 100 three pointers; Barry came in first by hitting 96 or 97, but Bonner was 2nd by hitting 92 (and this is on a team with Ginobili, Bowen (former NBA 3-pt champ), Finley, and Duncan (who hit one of the most clutch 3-pointers of all-time, :lol ). Bottom line is that Bonner can play basketball, the question is more about whether he can get out of Pop's doghouse.

It's funny that RC gets criticism for letting Barry go this year, but he doesn't seem to get equal credit for originally signing him a few years ago, when he was younger, and better-- that was one of the FO's moves that was very good.

The Spurs have been in a situation the last five years where at least 4 positions were set: Duncan at PF, Bowen at SF, Manu at SG, and Tony at PG. It makes sense with that roster to add complementary role players, which is what they've done. It's understandable that fans want an interesting & glamorous addition every off season, but it's not easy or always smart to do that. Look at the Jordan/Pippen-era Bulls: they platooned half a dozen journeymen and role players at center over the years, and it worked. The Spurs have done the same thing, and it has also worked. I think the way Rasho was handled exemplifies the intelligence and subtlety of the FO: He was signed as a young center with potential and upside-- he'd improved a few years in a row in Minnesota, and looked like he might continue to improve. They signed him, and he was an average center-- not an all-star, but not a terrible liability either. They won a title with him. But then when it looked like he'd hit his ceiling and wasn't going to get any better, the Spurs unloaded him and signed other role guys for less money to do the same job. It hasn't been an exciting progression through the years with Willis, Nazr, Oberto, Elson, and now Thomas, but it has worked.

Here are some other moves that deserve big time credit:

Stealing Finley for almost nothing. A great move at the time. Many teams wanted him, and they all lost out to the Spurs.

Signing an unheralded Bruce Bowen, who went on to be one of the greatest defensive stoppers of the decade. Isn't that a prime example of great scouting and talent analysis?

Signing Horry. He's gone now and probably retired, but no one can say he didn't fulfill his role perfectly while playing for the Spurs.

The short term guys: Speedy Claxton, Massenburg, Glenn Robinson, Willis, Devin Brown. They all contributed in small ways and were all financial bargains. Most importantly, they all have rings. Ask any of those guys if they think RC doesn't know what he's doing.

Some moves have to be applauded for their effort, even if they didn't work out. Larry Brown was on record saying that Jackie Butler was the best young player on the Knicks, and that he would be a starter in the near future. He came out of high school as one of the highest rated players in the entire country. Based on Brown's (Pop's good friend) firsthand knowledge of his abilities and their own scouting reports, Pop and RC signed him to a very reasonable contract. The fact that he didn't pan out is just something that happens pretty regularly in sports-- a guy not playing to his potential. If you're playing poker and you bet big with 4 kings in your hand but lose to a royal flush it doesn't mean that you're stupid and don't know how to play the game. It means you had bad luck. No GM or coach or player or human being is immune to bad luck. It's an unfortunate and simple fact of life.

Finally, I think it's impossible to ignore the fact that Holt is one of the least wealthy owners in the NBA. He has far fewer dollars to gamble with than Dolan or Cuban, but has managed to assemble a more successful team than both of them... and every other owner in the NBA also. If RC is working on direct orders to stay out of the luxury tax penalty from his boss, he can't be criticized for the Scola trade as fervently as he has on Spurstalk. Are you ever put in a situation at work where you are forced to doing something that you would rather not? I know I am. RC was looking for the least painful cut, and he & Pop decided on that one. If you want an example of payroll cutting that is much worse, look at what the Nuggets just did with Camby. Does the Scola move now look like a mistake? Yes. But it also represents a kindness that is rare in modern sports-- setting Scola free to pursue his dream of playing in the NBA-- which is almost as unheard of in the cutthroat world of big dollar sports as the Spurs' constant emphasis on character is. They are one of the few teams that truly walk the walk and almost always stick to their stated values in choosing new parts-- Mason is a good example of this , and so is Hill-- and that's the reason why, rather than any of the other 29 teams in the league, including my childhood home team and my current state's team, I'm proud to call them my favorite.

It is apparent that many fans are just that, fans. They do not take the time to understand what it takes to not only run a successful franchise, but to do so with unwavering class, smart profitable business practices and sustained success. It does not make them bad people, it just makes them fans of the Spurs and not fans of basketball.

It gets a little frustrating to hear some of the crazy ideas (fire R.C., trade Manu for pennies on the dollar...) but it is equally frustrating to watch people on here tear each other down by being constantly rude. Both things are kind of lame. Just part of the deal though, everyone needs to just sit back and see the forest for the trees. We have been blessed in San Antonio and should continue to be.

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Originally Posted by DPG21920

It is apparent that many fans are just that, fans. They do not take the time to understand what it takes to not only run a successful franchise, but to do so with unwavering class, smart profitable business practices and sustained success. It does not make them bad people, it just makes them fans of the Spurs and not fans of basketball.

It gets a little frustrating to hear some of the crazy ideas (fire R.C., trade Manu for pennies on the dollar...) but it is equally frustrating to watch people on here tear each other down by being constantly rude. Both things are kind of lame. Just part of the deal though, everyone needs to just sit back and see the forest for the trees. We have been blessed in San Antonio and should continue to be.

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I think you are right. Yesterday on espn radio, one show asked people to call in and predict who would win the college football championship this upcoming season. The first caller said there was no doubt that it would be Ohio State and then listed a bunch of reasons why. At the end of his list, the announcer asked where he was calling from. His answer: Ohio. The next caller predicted USC would win it all. He gave his reasons, and the announcer asked where he was from. He was from Los Angeles. The next guy said there was no doubt about it, Georgia would be National Champs. Where was he calling from? Georgia. It's nice that people root for their home team, but I think it's rare to find fans who are capable of objectivity. When I see that the Vegas oddsmakers have the Lakers as the favorites in the western conference, it doesn't get me angry. They should be the favorites based on last year's performance and the return of Bynum. I wonder what San Antonio fans would say about a Laker's forum where fans called for Phil Jackson and Kupchak to be fired based on last year's loss in the finals? Remember-- Kupchak is the guy who traded Caron Butler for Kwame Brown, among other things, and Phil hasn't won a title since 2002 and is 0-2 in the finals since then! Should they both be fired.... or would that be a strange proposition?

Don't get me wrong, I like Barry and I think he's a great shooter. But it really seems like people are overrating him as a player purely becuase in his last game for the Spurs he lit the Lakers up. Last time I checked that wasn't something he did regularly and if you're going to accuse anyone for losing a step on defense he's just as guilty as finley. Oh and he's a year older than Kurt Thomas AND Michael Finley as far as age goes.

If the Spurs had resigned him i'm sure people would be criticizing the FO for wasting money on an aging player when we should be pursuing more youth. But since we didn't resign him its their fault we let him go.

Make up your damn mind.

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Originally Posted by Dramon

Don't get me wrong, I like Barry and I think he's a great shooter. But it really seems like people are overrating him as a player purely becuase in his last game for the Spurs he lit the Lakers up. Last time I checked that wasn't something he did regularly and if you're going to accuse anyone for losing a step on defense he's just as guilty as finley. Oh and he's a year older than Kurt Thomas AND Michael Finley as far as age goes.

If the Spurs had resigned him i'm sure people would be criticizing the FO for wasting money on an aging player when we should be pursuing more youth. But since we didn't resign him its their fault we let him go.

Make up your damn mind.

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Not to mention that last year he was bothered by a nagging calf injury and as you get older those little injuries tend to linger.

Spurs did the right thing to sign someone fresh and new...I just don't know if $4M was too much and if the guy was the right one. But he can't be much worse than Barry, who was barely there for half the year.

An Opinion Based On Facts Is Subject To Interpretation Of The Facts And Is Still An Opinion

Great posts Tully365. Spot on. :tu

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Originally Posted by DPG21920

It is apparent that many fans are just that, fans. They do not take the time to understand what it takes to not only run a successful franchise, but to do so with unwavering class, smart profitable business practices and sustained success. It does not make them bad people, it just makes them fans of the Spurs and not fans of basketball.

It gets a little frustrating to hear some of the crazy ideas (fire R.C., trade Manu for pennies on the dollar...) but it is equally frustrating to watch people on here tear each other down by being constantly rude. Both things are kind of lame. Just part of the deal though, everyone needs to just sit back and see the forest for the trees. We have been blessed in San Antonio and should continue to be.

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Agreed. I guess sometimes when someone takes the time to read and post on a team's forum, you assume that they're an above average basketball fan and dedicated to understanding the game, but that's not always the case. I hope I don't come across as rude. I'll call people on it when their takes are insane, or happily take the time to debate them if they use reason and evidence in their arguments, or eat my crow if I end up being wrong. But sometimes the name calling, ad hominem attacks, and lack of respect on internet message boards is disappointing.

As what has become painfully obvious from last season's playoffs, the health of the Big Three will determine how far this team will go.

Health notwithstanding, we have seen the emergence of the playoff schedule and HCA play a major factor in the playoff wins and losses.

Oh and by the way, I don't always make intelligent comments, but I DID stay at a Holiday Inn last night.

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Originally Posted by SenorSpur

As what has become painfully obvious from last season's playoffs, the health of the Big Three will determine how far this team will go.

The emergence of the playoff schedule and HCA could again play a factor playoff wins and losses.

Oh and by the way, I don't always make intelligent comments, but I DID stay at a Holiday Inn last night.

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hahaha, well said

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