Unions

I guess this would go in the political forum.

Are unions still a good thing? Are they the powerhouse they once were? I've never been in a union, but my dad's business is union. We employ ironworkers and electricians. We pay a shitload each month to them for their benefits, so I guess being in one is good for that reason. Every year they get a new contract which includes a raise for them and more we have to pay in benefits.

He would love to get out of the union, but I don't think he ever will be able to. I know we have lost out on some bids because we were undercut in price by a non-union competitor.

I thought I heard that TX is not a big union state?

Anyway, just curious to see what y'all thought of them.

Shellyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!

I think Unions have gone from trying to help workers, into a business entity. I can't 100% say they are useless, but as a business owner, i'm 100% against them after seeing the havoc they've wrecked on the auto industry.

WHOOOOOTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT!

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Unfortunately, we've been union for over 50 years, so you know we're stuck. We have 1 electrician and pay minimum four grand a month just for him. One person!

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Originally Posted by Shelly

WHOOOOOTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT!

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Unfortunately, we've been union for over 50 years, so you know we're stuck. We have 1 electrician and pay minimum four grand a month just for him. One person!

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And people wonder why business is outsourced.

We do a lot of defense work, so they usually are pro-union. We just lost a big job with Boeing by a lot to a non-union company.

Are checkers at grocery stores union? I know some stores are. Not sure about HEB?

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Originally Posted by Shelly

WHOOOOOTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT!

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Unfortunately, we've been union for over 50 years, so you know we're stuck. We have 1 electrician and pay minimum four grand a month just for him. One person!

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Unions can be a good thing or a bad thing. They are good when the workers have little or no power and bad once they realize how much power they truly have....once they realize how much power they have they drive up the cost of the their labor which drives up the cost to the rest of us...and like anything else they are can become corrupt at the leadership positions really easily.

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Originally Posted by whottt

Unions can be a good thing or a bad thing. They are good when the workers have little or no power and bad once they realize how much power they truly have....once they realize how much power they have they drive up the cost of the their labor which drives up the cost to the rest of us...and like anything else they are can become corrupt at the leadership positions really easily.

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Very well said.

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Originally Posted by Shelly

We do a lot of defense work, so they usually are pro-union. We just lost a big job with Boeing by a lot to a non-union company.

Are checkers at grocery stores union? I know some stores are. Not sure about HEB?

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Safeway/Randall's has a Union...that's why they're largely out of business now.

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Originally Posted by whottt

Unions can be a good thing or a bad thing. They are good when the workers have little or no power and bad once they realize how much power they truly have....once they realize how much power they have they drive up the cost of the their labor which drives up the cost to the rest of us...and like anything else they are can become corrupt at the leadership positions really easily.

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It is a tough issue. I used to represent large employers who had issues with unions. Unions made it tough to terminate unproductive employees. Often, the unions would defend these employees to the point of absurdity. However, at the same time, I saw corporations mistreat employees who didn't have similar protections in place.

It's a complex issue and largely depends on the people involved and the specific situation you're looking into.

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Originally Posted by whottt

Safeway/Randall's has a Union...that's why they're largely out of business now.

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I was gonna say Safeway was. I used to shop there when I lived in San Francisco and I recall a checker saying they were.

This is what we pay to the I/W per month based on total hours worked.

vacation $3.68 (a wash as we deduct from their paycheck)
annuity $3.43 (what is annuity)
welfare $7.58
pension $6.81
apprenticeship $0.87
admin trust $0.03
LMCT $0.06 (don't know what this is)
WCTF $0.02 (i think this is some workers comp thing. We already pay comp)
Impact $0.25 (have no idea what that is either)

Every July 1st, they get a raise and the rates go up.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Peabody

It is a tough issue. I used to represent large employers who had issues with unions. Unions made it tough to terminate unproductive employees. Often, the unions would defend these employees to the point of absurdity. However, at the same time, I saw corporations mistreat employees who didn't have similar protections in place.

It's a complex issue and largely depends on the people involved and the specific situation you're looking into.

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Hence, they get 'laid off' and collect unemployment. And if you're gonna lay them off before the end of the day, you have to pay them 2 hours show up pay. They also get non-taxable travel and subsistence reimbursement.

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Originally Posted by Shelly

I thought I heard that TX is not a big union state?

Anyway, just curious to see what y'all thought of them.

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Texas is a right-to-work state. We do have Unions, but they're not nearly as prevalent as in other states.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Peabody

Texas is a right-to-work state. We do have Unions, but they're not nearly as prevalent as in other states.

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Thank god.

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Originally Posted by Shelly

Hence, they get 'laid off' and collect unemployment. And if you're gonna lay them off before the end of the day, you have to pay them 2 hours show up pay. They also get non-taxable travel and subsistence reimbursement.

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Here in Texas, you don't get unemployment if you were terminated for good cause (or is it just cause[?]). It's been a while since I've done the employment law thing.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Peabody

Texas is a right-to-work state. We do have Unions, but they're not nearly as prevalent as in other states.

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I see. We're in CA and most of our jobs are in CA, but if we have a job in another state, we hire out of their hall.

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Originally Posted by Shelly

We do a lot of defense work, so they usually are pro-union. We just lost a big job with Boeing by a lot to a non-union company.

Are checkers at grocery stores union? I know some stores are. Not sure about HEB?

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I work deli, and I'm in a union...UFCW 1546, I think.

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Originally Posted by Shelly

I was gonna say Safeway was. I used to shop there when I lived in San Francisco and I recall a checker saying they were.

This is what we pay to the I/W per month based on total hours worked.

vacation $3.68 (a wash as we deduct from their paycheck)
annuity $3.43 (what is annuity)
welfare $7.58
pension $6.81
apprenticeship $0.87
admin trust $0.03
LMCT $0.06 (don't know what this is)
WCTF $0.02 (i think this is some workers comp thing. We already pay comp)
Impact $0.25 (have no idea what that is either)

Every July 1st, they get a raise and the rates go up.

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Yeah I used to work at Safeway too, great holidays, pay and benefits but the prices put them out of business. :lol

I didn't mean Randall's for the other choice though...whatever they became after Safeway...AppleTree maybe? Something like that. The unions killed them at least in Texas because no other grocery chain in Texas had one...they couldn't stay competitive.

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Originally Posted by whottt

Yeah I used to work at Safeway too, great holidays, pay and benefits but the prices put them out of business. :lol

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Safeway is union here also, but that is not why their prices re so high. I could see them being a little higher than Walmart or WinCo over here, but their prices average about 30% higher. No way the union benefits cause that much more. They can go fuck themselves.

I don't like most unions, but they are a necessary evil. I despise most unions, but there are still a few good ones out there that do get proper benefits for their employees without going overboard. Unions are part of the reason the Metals, Auto, and Airline industries are dying in the USA. Workers losing their jobs from these industries should realize that they can only push for more benefits so much before it is cheaper to outsource, or push people to buy foreign like Toyotas. Taxes are the other aspect. That's another subject, so I will leave it that if America, which has the 2nd highest corporate tax rate, was far lower, we wouldn't be losing so many good paying jobs to foreign competition.

Unions are communism.

....unregulated capitalism is communism too...

:lol

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

Safeway is union here also, but that is not why their prices re so high. I could see them being a little higher than Walmart or WinCo over here, but their prices average about 30% higher. No way the union benefits cause that much more. They can go fuck themselves.

I don't like most unions, but they are a necessary evil. I despise most unions, but there are still a few good ones out there that do get proper benefits for their employees without going overboard. Unions are part of the reason the Metals, Auto, and Airline industries are dying in the USA. Workers losing their jobs from these industries should realize that they can only push for more benefits so much before it is cheaper to outsource, or push people to buy foreign like Toyotas. Taxes are the other aspect. That's another subject, so I will leave it that if America, which has the 2nd highest corporate tax rate, was far lower, we wouldn't be losing so many good paying jobs to foreign competition.

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I don't know where you live but that Union is why their prices are high.

When I worked at Safeway 25 something years ago they paid about 3-4 more dollars more per hour than any other grocery chain in Austin. I know because I worked at a couple of the other ones. Every place else paid about $3.35 an hour and Safeway paid about $7.00....and there were other perks too.

HEB is non union. All I know is that the UAW union made it possible for my father to get hired at GM which got us out of the migrant fields and allowed us to live a nice middle class life and for him to enjoy a nice retirement on a 5th grade education.
We know go round and round about unions. I think they served their purpose back when workers were getting the shaft but I don't feel they are needed as much today.

"back when workers were getting the shaft"

household income has held steady/declined since 2000, while CEO pay has skyrocketed to several 100x average salary.

GDP has increased OK, productivity has increased very well, but the lower 98% has gotten shafted and excluded from the increase in national wealth.

Repugs have removed workplace protections national level, and in TX right now the corps are fighting to reduce workers' rights to sue for workplace injuries, while financing the TX Supreme Court judges.

The story is very clear: the top 2% are ripping off the govt (see mortage bailout as only one example), while aggressively suppressing the lower 98%, and ripping them off (eg: health insurance prices, health care prices)

Would unions help workers today? Probably not, the top 2% are have the country by the short and curlies and won't ever let go of that power.

Can childishly, trustingly naive "workers" even now see how they are getting ripped off by the mortgage bailout? No, they have have been dumbed down to be docile, fat/dumb, TV-narcotzied victims for the predatory top 2%.

They started out as a necessary evil, now they are as corrupt as what they once fought

Texas is a "right to work" state which is the biggest misnomer out there, since what it means is you have a right to be fired whenever you want, because unions have been undercut.

Unions are THE ONLY WAY to assure job security. It doesn't matter how good you are at your job, if your boss doesn't like you, they can fire you. Even if it's technically "discrimination" that is so impossible to prove in most cases it's rarely worth it, and you're out of a job. Unions are also the only way to guarantee you get a raise every year, and have a voice at your workplace.

Does that mean there aren't corrupt unions, unions that lose sight of their priorities? Of course there are. But the basic principle of unions is one which anyone who cares about their job and their livelihood should embrace.

My biases: I am not currently a union member. But I helped organize the workers at the Parry Center for Children in Portland, OR, a residential treatment center. I went on to serve for 1 year as president. SEIU is a strong, growing, important political force for workers in health care and other jobs. It's one of the "good ones" as far as unions go. That's been my experience with unions, so while I know that corruption exists in all aspects of the human race, I have seen primarily the positive, life-changing, job-saving aspect of unions.

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Originally Posted by whottt

I don't know where you live but that Union is why their prices are high.

When I worked at Safeway 25 something years ago they paid about 3-4 more dollars more per hour than any other grocery chain in Austin. I know because I worked at a couple of the other ones. Every place else paid about $3.35 an hour and Safeway paid about $7.00....and there were other perks too.

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I worked for Safeway in 1979 and was paid $8.52 (I think, $850 round #s) per hour. As a checker, I was putting through over $2000 per hour through the check stand. How does any amount of pay and benifits between union and even minimum pay amount to over a 5% difference. 5% of that $2000 is $100 per hour.

Please explain to me why a union facility should be more than a 5% difference in cost from a non-union competator.

Safeway here is 30% more costly than Walmart and WinCo, but they are in line with QFC, FRed Meyer, and Albertsons. I don't know what union scale is today, but minimum wage here is I think $7.95 per hour. Even with slow, lazy union checkers today (in the old days, they had to maintain speed) they still have over $2000 per hour of food, and a 30% increase is $600 per hour difference!

Again:

Please explain to me why a union facility should be more than a 5% difference in cost from a non-union competator.

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

I worked for Safeway in 1979 and was paid $8.52 (I think, $850 round #s) per hour. As a checker, I was putting through over $2000 per hour through the check stand. How does any amount of pay and benifits between union and even minimum pay amount to over a 5% difference. 5% of that $2000 is $100 per hour.

Please explain to me why a union facility should be more than a 5% difference in cost from a non-union competator.

Safeway here is 30% more costly than Walmart and WinCo, but they are in line with QFC, FRed Meyer, and Albertsons. I don't know what union scale is today, but minimum wage here is I think $7.95 per hour. Even with slow, lazy union checkers today (in the old days, they had to maintain speed) they still have over $2000 per hour of food, and a 30% increase is $600 per hour difference!

Again:

Please explain to me why a union facility should be more than a 5% difference in cost from a non-union competator.

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Well I was never a checker so I don't know how much they paid them but that is a high figure for 1979.

Don't lose the Forest for the Trees...in my case it's simple, they were paying their employees at least double what any other Grocery Store was paying their employees, at least for sackers. That's going to result in substantially higher prices. It is enough to justify prices twice as high? No...but 30% sounds about right to me. And it hurts them....that's why Safeways are extinct in Texas now(if they aren't totally extinct they are close).

I don't know who else has Unions now...so I don't how the wages should match up. All I know is back then Safeway was the only supermarket chain in Texas with a Union.

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Originally Posted by whottt

Well I was never a checker so I don't know how much they paid them but that is a high figure for 1979.

Don't lose the Forest for the Trees...in my case it's simple, they were paying their employees at least double what any other Grocery Store was paying their employees, at least for sackers. That's going to result in substantially higher prices. It is enough to justify prices twice as high? No...but 30% sounds about right to me. And it hurts them....that's why Safeways are extinct in Texas now(if they aren't totally extinct they are close).

I don't know who else has Unions now...so I don't how the wages should match up. All I know is back then Safeway was the only supermarket chain in Texas with a Union.

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You missed my point. Union stores are charging about 30% more than non-union stores. When groceries pass at a rate of over $2000 per hour per checker, and say that two other people are involved, a 5% difference at $2000 is $100. Are three union employees the cause for this extra $100 per hour in food cost through the check stands? And that only at 5% more than a non-union store. If it was only a 5% increase, I would shop at a union store. However, the cost around here is about a 30% difference, or $600 PER HOUR for the same three employees. No way in hell the three union employees cost the union stores that additional $600 per hour!

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

You missed my point. Union stores are charging about 30% more than non-union stores. When groceries pass at a rate of over $2000 per hour per checker, and say that two other people are involved, a 5% difference at $2000 is $100. Are three union employees the cause for this extra $100 per hour in food cost through the check stands? And that only at 5% more than a non-union store. If it was only a 5% increase, I would shop at a union store. However, the cost around here is about a 30% difference, or $600 PER HOUR for the same three employees. No way in hell the three union employees cost the union stores that additional $600 per hour!

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Ahh ok...well I'm out of my element, that grocery passing rate is entirely over my head. I've never heard of it before, and I'm not really quite sure I understand it. I was just going entirely on the fact that the store I worked at paid their employeees twice as much as other stores and union membership was mandatory.

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Originally Posted by whottt

Ahh ok...well I'm out of my element, that grocery passing rate is entirely over my head. I've never heard of it before, and I'm not really quite sure I understand it. I was just going entirely on the fact that the store I worked at paid their employeees twice as much as other stores and union membership was mandatory.

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What else is new?

<<<Never claims to be knowledgable on a subject he isn't knowledgable about, and definitely never argues from a position of ignorance when he isn't knowledgable on a subject. Per hour grocery checking rates and their relation to unions and product costs is definitely one of them. Unfortunately for your sorry ass.....cultural attitudes of Island Nations and the many definitions of continent, isn't.


I am the easiest person on this board to beat in an argument when I don't know what I am talking about...and a cast iron bitch when I do...you should try it sometime...not arguing from a position of ignorance I mean.

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Originally Posted by whottt

<<<Never claims to be knowledgable on a subject he isn't knowledgable about, and definitely never argues from a position of ignorance when he isn't knowledgable on a subject. Per hour grocery checking rates and their relation to unions and product costs is definitely one of them. Unfortunately for your sorry ass.....cultural attitudes of Island Nations and the many definitions of continent, isn't.


I am the easiest person on this board to beat in an argument when I don't know what I am talking about...and a cast iron bitch when I do...you should try it sometime...not arguing from a position of ignorance I mean.

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As corroborated by many posters in your ignore list...