Guess the religious nutjob that said this?

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Originally Posted by DarrinS

To the extent we are fighting people that consider themselves "holy warriors", we are in a holy war. I can't state it any more plainly than that.

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So you don't think we should be invoking God when talking about this war either.

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Originally Posted by FromWayDowntown

That sort of logic leads to supporting torture.

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I don't get your logic.

If Islamo-fascism, Islamists, Islamic extremists, jihadists, etc...ad nauseum... believes they're fighting a religious war, are they? I think they are -- regardless of how you or I would characterize the conflict.

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Originally Posted by Yonivore

I don't get your logic.

If Islamo-fascism, Islamists, Islamic extremists, jihadists, etc...ad nauseum... believes they're fighting a religious war, are they? I think they are -- regardless of how you or I would characterize the conflict.

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How would you characterize the conflict?

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Originally Posted by George Gervin's Afro

Well some conservative folks think THEY are in a holy war, don't they?

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There are some of us who believe the enemy, in this conflict, is pure evil. And, evil is a religious construct.

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Originally Posted by Yonivore

There are some of us who believe the enemy, in this conflict, is pure evil. And, evil is a religious construct.

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So you think this is a holy war?

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

So you don't think we should be invoking God when talking about this war either.

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Our invisible god is better than their invisible god.


Just kidding.


TO the extent that we can help jihadists meet God, I think we should ablige.

I think that those of us who believe in God should pray that we're doing His will.

That's different than asking or believing that God is on our side. It's asking that we be on God's side.

This was also the distinction the Left was unable to make when they jumped on Governor Palin's prayer at her son's deployment ceremony.

Do you consider the current conflict a holy war?

Yes or no will do.

The middle eastern conflict will not be resolved by the U.S. or any of it's military might - it is engrained in the generational mindset of most radical muslims and they will keep it going long after this administration or the next one leaves. Yes, even 'peaceful' muslims have stated on numerous occasions, on numerous platforms that the existence of the sovereign State of Israel is a threat to their faith, and an abomination to their way of life, and to their view of the world.

Another issue that will keep us entrenched in this conflict is that future generations of muslims within Europe and here in the States will become radicalized even if their parents were 'peaceful muslims' who chose to detach themselves from the middle eastern conflict altogether. Just because the parents were 'peaceful' - or 'americanized' (choosing instead a lassez-faire attitude about the conflict) doesn't guarantee that their children will share their worldview. In fact, even if a tiny fraction of their children become radicalized that generation will become an iminent internal threat. They will hate us no matter what foreign policy we decide to pursue.

So whether or not we consider ourselves participants in this centuries old "Holy War" by describing our military/political participation as such, the enemy sure does see it that way.... No matter who sugarcoats the issue, 'it' is what it is... They enemy has seen it that way long before this administration took the White House.

In that context, ChumpDumper, how we identify the 'war' is irrelevant.

So how about answering the question?

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Originally Posted by Phenomanul

The middle eastern conflict will not be resolved by the U.S. or any of it's military might - it is engrained in the generational mindset of most radical muslims and they will keep it going long after this administration or the next one leaves. Yes, even 'peaceful' muslims have stated on numerous occasions, on numerous platforms that the existence of the sovereign State of Israel is a threat to their faith, and an abomination to their way of life, and to their view of the world.

Another issue that will keep us entrenched in this conflict is that future generations of muslims within Europe and here in the States will become radicalized even if their parents were 'peaceful muslims' who chose to detach themselves from the middle eastern conflict altogether. Just because the parents were 'peaceful' - or 'americanized' (choosing instead a lassez-faire attitude about the conflict) doesn't guarantee that their children will share their worldview. In fact, even if a tiny fraction of their children become radicalized that generation will become an iminent internal threat. They will hate us no matter what foreign policy we decide to pursue.

So whether or not we consider ourselves participants in this centuries old "Holy War" by describing our military/political participation as such, the enemy sure does see it that way.... No matter who sugarcoats the issue, 'it' is what it is... They enemy has seen it that way long before this administration took the White House.

In that context, ChumpDumper, how we identify the 'war' is irrelevant.

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Well stated.

Me personally?

Yes I consider it a 'holy war'... but that is also irrelevant.

Maybe we should pull out and 'lose the war', quit spending all that 'war-machine' money, fix our economy, worry about building that wall on our southern border. That should in the very least keep radical muslims at bay for another 5 years or so. The enemy, however, will get stronger, regroup and attack us at home once more - that eventuality is inevitable. The fact that Iran will potentially own nuclear weapons by that time won't help our cause.

Or we keep fighting on their turf, seek out as many radical cells as we can find, and keep insisting that Iran cease all nuclear-enrichment. The war continues...

Unfortunately, either option will cost us many American lives. That my friend is the state of the world we live in. People have always elected to drift towards extremes.

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Originally Posted by Phenomanul

Yes I consider it a 'holy war'... but that is also irrelevant.

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I believe it is quite relevant.

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

I believe it is quite relevant.

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Wrong. I don't dictate any foreign policy.

As such, my opinion stands; my characterization of this particular 'version' of the war is irrelevant.

In my worldview, all I can do is pray for what very little 'peace' we can muster out of the war.

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Originally Posted by Phenomanul

Wrong. I don't dictate any foreign policy.

As such, my opinion stands; it is irrelevant.

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So every political thought you have is irrelevant.

I wouldn't have gone that far, but whatever you say. Nice seeing you here.

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

So every political thought you have is irrelevant.

I wouldn't have gone that far, but whatever you say. Nice seeing you.

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Nice little red-herring...

My vote as an American Citizen counts as much as the next person's. But that vote in and of itself doesn't generate any foreign policies. Most politicians afterall, will do what they wish to do regardless of my vote, or more specifically my worldview.

Are your arguments always this dichotic, so ying-yang?

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Originally Posted by Yonivore

I think that those of us who believe in God should pray that we're doing His will.

That's different than asking or believing that God is on our side. It's asking that we be on God's side.

This was also the distinction the Left was unable to make when they jumped on Governor Palin's prayer at her son's deployment ceremony.

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Yes, going to church and making a public show of "praying" that you're doing the right thing does relieve you of the burden of having to do any serious thinking or reasoning about whether you are actually doing the right thing.

Funny how none of people praying ever say "God spoke to me and told me we have it all wrong".

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Originally Posted by Phenomanul

The middle eastern conflict will not be resolved by the U.S. or any of it's military might - it is engrained in the generational mindset of most radical muslims and they will keep it going long after this administration or the next one leaves. Yes, even 'peaceful' muslims have stated on numerous occasions, on numerous platforms that the existence of the sovereign State of Israel is a threat to their faith, and an abomination to their way of life, and to their view of the world.

Another issue that will keep us entrenched in this conflict is that future generations of muslims within Europe and here in the States will become radicalized even if their parents were 'peaceful muslims' who chose to detach themselves from the middle eastern conflict altogether. Just because the parents were 'peaceful' - or 'americanized' (choosing instead a lassez-faire attitude about the conflict) doesn't guarantee that their children will share their worldview. In fact, even if a tiny fraction of their children become radicalized that generation will become an iminent internal threat. They will hate us no matter what foreign policy we decide to pursue.

So whether or not we consider ourselves participants in this centuries old "Holy War" by describing our military/political participation as such, the enemy sure does see it that way.... No matter who sugarcoats the issue, 'it' is what it is... They enemy has seen it that way long before this administration took the White House.

In that context, ChumpDumper, how we identify the 'war' is irrelevant.

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How we think about and identify the war goes directly to how we conduct ourselves. If everyone here takes the bait of calling it a holy war, just because they do, we carelessly expand the definition of "our enemy" to include every muslim on earth.

It cracks me up watching Chump fuck with all the repubs in here. Even if I disagree with him 9 times out of 10, he's really good at fucking with you guys. Eventually you'll learn that if you just answer his questions with other questions you can wait for the hilarity to ensue.

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Originally Posted by PixelPusher

How we think about and identify the war goes directly to how we conduct ourselves. If everyone here takes the bait of calling it a holy war, just because they do, we carelessly expand the definition of "our enemy" to include every muslim on earth.

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How is that perception any different than how most muslim circles have always perceived the war? I've yet to find one muslim that agrees with America's involment in the middle eastern conflict... why? Because they realize that our military strength and support has unified and strengthened their long time arch-enemy; the nation of Israel (whether a sovereign state or not).

Tactfulness over the 'political-correctness' of characterizing the war is trivial and moot at this point.... because we blatantly became their enemy decades ago when we helped Israel become a nation. You do realize that most muslims here in the states inherently consider the U.S. "The Great Satan"... regardless of our foreign policy - don't you? They can't stand our culture, our music, our diversity, our freedom of expression, the fact that women are considered equals, or the fact that this nation was founded on Judeo-Christian principles (despite the Separation of Church and State). Most 'american' muslims are here chasing the 'almighty dollar' like most everyone else, but it would be naive to ignore that they also believe that they are spreading the extents of their earthly Islamic Kingdom -- and that in that sense they are self-sacrificing j_i_ha_dis_ts themselves...

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Originally Posted by Phenomanul

How is that perception any different than how most muslim circles have always perceived the war? I've yet to find one muslim that agrees with America's involment in the middle eastern conflict... why? Because they realize that our military strength and support has unified and strengthened their long time arch-enemy; the nation of Israel (whether a sovereign state or not).

Tactfulness over the 'political-correctness' of characterizing the war is trivial and moot at this point.... because we blatantly became their enemy decades ago when we helped Israel become a nation. You do realize that most muslims here in the states inherently consider the U.S. "The Great Satan"... regardless of our foreign policy - don't you? They can't stand our culture, our music, our diversity, our freedom of expression, the fact that women are considered equals, or the fact that this nation was founded on Judeo-Christian principles (despite the Separation of Church and State). Most 'american' muslims are here chasing the 'almighty dollar' like most everyone else, but it would be naive to ignore that they also believe that they are spreading the extents of their earthly Islamic Kingdom -- and that in that sense they are self-sacrificing j_i_ha_dis_ts themselves...

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Do you have any actual study or research that backs up your assertion that most muslims in this country think the way you describe? The ones I've met couldn't be more opposite the description you provided.
Your post above reeks of xenophobia, that's why I'd love to know where you got your information from.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

Do you have any actual study or research that backs up your assertion that most muslims in this country think the way you describe? The ones I've met couldn't be more opposite the description you provided.
Your post above reeks of xenophobia, that's why I'd love to know where you got your information from.

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Mostly from Muslim student associations in the greater Boston and New York areas....

Despite what you may think, I probably have more muslim friends and acquaintances than you think I do.... they're the ones that told me that they could not impede their childrens' calling if for some reason they were called to fight the evils they saw in their society.

And yes, I admit the above comments are simply my opinions; but ones that are based on actual interactions with muslims and their practices. Have you ever actually read the Quran? Or are you acquainted with the tenets of Islam or its history? Are you familiar with the major doctrinal controversies that divide the different Islamic groups? Well... I can't speak for you, but most Americans aren't; in their 'ignorance' on matters of Islam they basically don't realize that we face a problem much greater than the military conflict itself... It is a clash of worldviews and cultures.

For example, one of those major rifts between muslims just so happens to address the issue of how to deal with Islam's enemies. Considering that the prophet Mohammed had some of his detractors dismembered by horses, among a great deal of other bloody tortures - you should read his biographies if you haven't already - what then do you think some of the members of his faith feel is 'just' punishment for the detractors of Islam today? That path will always be pursued and instigated by a few.

My statements certainly don't apply to all muslims. One thing is for certain however; it may only take but one radical muslim to attack this country once more - and they won't necesarily have to travel from abroad to do their harm.

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Originally Posted by Phenomanul

Mostly from Muslim student associations in the greater Boston and New York areas....

Despite what you may think, I probably have more muslim friends and acquaintances than you think I do.... they're the ones that told me that they could not impede their childrens' calling if for some reason they were called to fight the evils they saw in their society.

And yes, I admit the above comments are simply my opinions; but ones that are based on actual interactions with muslims and their practices. Have you ever actually read the Quran? Or are you acquainted with the tenets of Islam or its history? Are you familiar with the major doctrinal controversies that divide the different Islamic groups? Well... I can't speak for you, but most Americans aren't; in their 'ignorance' on matters of Islam they basically don't realize that we face a problem much greater than the military conflict itself... It is a clash of worldviews and cultures.

For example, one of those major rifts between muslims just so happens to address the issue of how to deal with Islam's enemies. Considering that the prophet Mohammed had some of his detractors dismembered by horses, among a great deal of other bloody tortures - you should read his biographies if you haven't already - what then do you think some of the members of his faith feel is 'just' punishment for the detractors of Islam today? That path will always be pursued and instigated by a few.

My statements certainly don't apply to all muslims. One thing is for certain however; it may only take but one radical muslim to attack this country once more - and they won't necesarily have to travel from abroad to do their harm.

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Thanks. I was pretty sure you pulled those comments out from your ass.
I don't disagree with your notion that one of these Muslims might go wacko one day and do something bad. But that can happen with anybody (McVeigh, Unabomber, etc) regardless of their religion.
And as much as you can quote people being dismembered by horses, I can retort with the Inquisition. But we don't burn people at the stake anymore, do we?
The Catholic church history is also nothing to be proud of IF you look at it with the same critical eye that you look at Islam.

And yes, I have read both the Bible and the Quran. And I think both are a bunch of fear mongering for the weak minded. Now, that's just my personal opinion, even though I understand it will piss off equally some Christians and Islamists.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

Thanks. I was pretty sure you pulled those comments out from your ass.

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Ummmm... dude... that phrase is usually reserved for someone who 'brings' faulty statistics, or outright lies into a discussion.

I clearly stated from the get-go what my stance was, and what my opinions were...

:rolleyes

Unlike other posters, I'm not afraid to show where I stand on certain issues; even if they are highly controversial.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

I don't disagree with your notion that one of these Muslims might go wacko one day and do something bad. But that can happen with anybody (McVeigh, Unabomber, etc) regardless of their religion.

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Quite the understatement. They go 'wacko' everyday somewhere in the middle east; they don't understand the concept of peace because 1) they can't let go of a thousands-year-old family feud, 2) because they don't value the ideals of freedom and equality like we do and 3) because they hate Israel and its allies (specifically the U.S.)...

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Originally Posted by ElNono

And as much as you can quote people being dismembered by horses, I can retort with the Inquisition. But we don't burn people at the stake anymore, do we? The Catholic church history is also nothing to be proud of IF you look at it with the same critical eye that you look at Islam.

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Epic fail!....

I won't defend the Catholic Churchs' actions, and I certainly don't condone their cruel history; but their actions were driven by the institution's thirst for power... not because the Bible taught or instructed them to do so...

'Vengence is mine sayeth The LORD"
'Verily I say unto you, if a man strikes you on one cheek, turn the other"

The Quran, on the other hand, does nothing to disuade muslims from violence - it gives them the option to pursue that course; and guess what? Many, many do....

That, ElNono, is a massive 'theological' difference between the two.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

And yes, I have read both the Bible and the Quran.

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Doubtful... given your noted ignorance in differentiating a core distinction between the two.

Yes... I'm calling you out on this particular claim...

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Originally Posted by ElNono

And I think both are a bunch of fear mongering for the weak minded. Now, that's just my personal opinion, even though I understand it will piss off equally some Christians and Islamists.

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So then why the sudden concern over hurting Muslims' feelings, and being all 'politically correct' over the characterization of the war? "Let's not alienate the muslim sector in american society"... :rolleyes

Nothing seems to hold liberals back when attacking the Christian moral value set, or the Christian sector.

I'm going to sleep. Sorry it got that heated... but my Islamic Studies course in college was an eye-opening class that forever changed my view on what the Islamic worldview is all about.

BTW the "building the wall on the southern border" comment was mocking and sarcastic in nature. I am opposed to that project.

I'm many, many things... but I'm not what most would consider a xenophobe.