180 Degrees - I did some thinking

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Originally Posted by BacktoBasics

The opportunity to fly a plane that will continue to crash. Perhaps a pilot death is in order to catapult change.

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Certainly one could argue that the best outcome would simply be for the United States of America to collapse and for the world as a whole to move on without it. If I were a Russian, I might enjoy that, and I might enjoy seeing Americans go through the deprivation and chaos I went through in the 1990's.

However, barring a tremendous sense of impersonal justice and irony, it's hard to see why an American would suggest that. Unless you are very rich, the 2010's will suck for you, to a degree of severity ranging from "moderate" to "on a waiting list to get a spot under that I-37 overpass."

Are you a Russian spy?

maybe we're the plane, man. maybe we're the plane.

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Originally Posted by smeagol

Not doing anything will have disastrous effects on the average American.

I'm surprised people do not see that . . .

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average american can't do simple math or understand simple financial concepts. Remember, most americans live paycheck to paycheck, so of course they would know best when it comes to finance. The fat cats are laughing, because they're rich already and the downturn will have little affect on them. It's these poor schmos who think everyone over the age of 18 would get 400,000 instead of the "bailout" or that the "bailout" is a handout.

I was listening to mike reagan this morning and the dude couldn't do simple math. I was flabbergasted. I love how the government caused this mess with Fannie and Freddie and now wants everyone to fend for themselves. It's a con so rich liquid republicans can come in after the mess and gobble up assets for pennies on the dollar while the average american gets bent over. Here's a solution let all the rich people gobble up assets and pay zero capital gains tax, so johnny doesn't go bankrupt.

I love it.

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Originally Posted by Oh, Gee!!

maybe we're the plane, man. maybe we're the plane.

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The way I had it, we're the pilot, but with your way...

It is true, if you want to have a violent revolution, it takes people who are desperate, angry, and have nothing more to lose.

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Originally Posted by Extra Stout

The way I had it, we're the pilot, but with your way...

It is true, if you want to have a violent revolution, it takes people who are desperate, angry, and have nothing more to lose.

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radical conservatives want a revolution to get rid of all the illegal immigrants.

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Originally Posted by 2centsworth

radical conservatives want a revolution to get rid of all the illegal immigrants.

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Well, hell, when all the jobs dry up, they'll go back home of their own accord.

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Originally Posted by 101A

Why is it so easy to find reasoned, detailed explanations of why NOT to do the bailout, but very difficult to find the same FOR doing the bailout? ALL of the papers in support are full of chicken little sky is falling cliches, but very few details, and almost most no reasoned discussion. My cynic alarm is at full tilt.

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give me well reasoned points why not to do it?

I think when my insurance check comes in for my house, after I'm done repairing everything, then, rather than replacing my furniture and belongings, I'll just buy gold and sit on the floor.

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Originally Posted by 2centsworth

average american can't do simple math or understand simple financial concepts. Remember, most americans live paycheck to paycheck, so of course they would know best when it comes to finance. The fat cats are laughing, because they're rich already and the downturn will have little affect on them. It's these poor schmos who think everyone over the age of 18 would get 400,000 instead of the "bailout" or that the "bailout" is a handout.

I was listening to mike reagan this morning and the dude couldn't do simple math. I was flabbergasted. I love how the government caused this mess with Fannie and Freddie and now wants everyone to fend for themselves. It's a con so rich liquid republicans can come in after the mess and gobble up assets for pennies on the dollar while the average american gets bent over. Here's a solution let all the rich people gobble up assets and pay zero capital gains tax, so johnny doesn't go bankrupt.

I love it.

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Rich people will not suffer. They never do. Actually, this will be an opportunitty for them to make more money. Volatile times help create fortunes.

By the way, this mess is not soley on the repbs. I remember ARMs flourishing in the late 90s. Hell, I took one in 1997.

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Originally Posted by Extra Stout

The way I had it, we're the pilot, but with your way...

It is true, if you want to have a violent revolution, it takes people who are desperate, angry, and have nothing more to lose.

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You're suggesting a rinse repeat cycle or we'll destroy the world you live in. I'm sick of waking up everyday to the world around me being as fucked up as it is. If it means we can do it differently from here on out I'm willing to eat it for now and live below the poverty line. The world needs ditch diggers too and I'm only 31. I'm gonna go get my shovel.

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Originally Posted by Extra Stout

Well, hell, when all the jobs dry up, they'll go back home of their own accord.

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that's the logic. Republicans feel like they are losing control, so want to blow up the country in hopes of change.

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Originally Posted by 2centsworth

that's the logic. Republicans feel like they are losing control, so want to blow up the country in hopes of change.

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they watched "v for vendetta" one too many times i guess

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Originally Posted by 101A

Stout, I understand credit it going to get VERY tight - and banks are going to hate it; but RIGHT NOW I can get a loan for damn near anything I want; called my bank to verify. INCLUDING a short termer to mean payroll (which I don't need).

With the uncertainty being what it is, and all the banks so shell-shocked; how can that be the case? People who can pay back loans will still be able to get them as long as their are people with capital to give them (which there will be) - just probably not the SAME people who screwed it up in the first place. That is a good thing.

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It takes a while for the ripple effects to truly wind their way down.

Not all credit will completely dry up, but enough will to exacerbate the slowdown.

I will take a wait and see attitude. I am certain that doing nothing is worse than doing what they are proposing.

It's going to get rough and we haven't seen the worst of it yet.

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Originally Posted by Extra Stout

Certainly one could argue that the best outcome would simply be for the United States of America to collapse and for the world as a whole to move on without it. If I were a Russian, I might enjoy that, and I might enjoy seeing Americans go through the deprivation and chaos I went through in the 1990's.

However, barring a tremendous sense of impersonal justice and irony, it's hard to see why an American would suggest that. Unless you are very rich, the 2010's will suck for you, to a degree of severity ranging from "moderate" to "on a waiting list to get a spot under that I-37 overpass."

Are you a Russian spy?

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Who will be living in all the houses?

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Originally Posted by 2centsworth

give me well reasoned points why not to do it?

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There's already been one posted in this thread - twice.

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Originally Posted by 2centsworth

that's the logic. Republicans feel like they are losing control, so want to blow up the country in hopes of change.

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I seriously don't think that Republicans back in 1999 hatched a scheme where in case the Democrats looked like they were going to win the White House in 2008 the richers could sabotage the economy. I think there was a suspension of reality with Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac where the liberals liked subprime mortgage loans because it put their constituents in homes, and conservatives liked subprime loans because the financial markets seemed to be making a killing while the economy was good.

To the GOP's credit, the financial hawk wing of the party started making noise about problems in Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac back in 2004 or thereabouts. The Democrats called them bigots. I guess the Fannie Mae chairman must have been black or something. I guess it is racist to call somebody out for falsifying financial results in order to deliver himself a bonus when in reality the company is losing billions. It's TOTALLY different from when Enron executives did it.

Not that the Bush Administration did anything about it, but when have they ever done anything?

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Originally Posted by 101A

Who will be living in all the houses?

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Squatters, you mean? That works fine until the property owner calls out the National Guard to remove them.

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Originally Posted by 2centsworth

average american can't do simple math or understand simple financial concepts. Remember, most americans live paycheck to paycheck, so of course they would know best when it comes to finance. The fat cats are laughing, because they're rich already and the downturn will have little affect on them. It's these poor schmos who think everyone over the age of 18 would get 400,000 instead of the "bailout" or that the "bailout" is a handout.

I was listening to mike reagan this morning and the dude couldn't do simple math. I was flabbergasted. I love how the government caused this mess with Fannie and Freddie and now wants everyone to fend for themselves. It's a con so rich liquid republicans can come in after the mess and gobble up assets for pennies on the dollar while the average american gets bent over. Here's a solution let all the rich people gobble up assets and pay zero capital gains tax, so johnny doesn't go bankrupt.

I love it.

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Bullshit.

These "assets" are available for pennies on the dollar RIGHT NOW!!!

The powerful are waiting around to see if they can get MORE THAN THEY ARE WORTH from the taxpayer.

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Originally Posted by 101A

Who will be living in all the houses?

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That is a good question. The people who are vacating them are, quite often, stripping them down to the studs. Appliances, copper wires, copper tubes, fixtures, etc.

Hard to sell that kind of property.

Foreclosed Homeowners Trashing Houses

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As we hear of more people falling into the seemingly endless pit called foreclosure, we are finding out that people are taking out their frustrations and anger out on the very places they called home.

They are literally trashing the houses, which will ultimately cost us all in some way or another.

We went to a house on East 17th Street in Chattanooga so see for ourselves the damage that so many realtors are talking about. We found people taking desperate measures in desperate times.

Crye-Leike managing broker Cindy Walker took us on a tour of the house, beginning in the bathroom. We find walls literally ripped open where fixtures and plumbing were taken. The sink is laying on the floor because the vanity was taken.

Walker says this is becoming far too common, and it's costing the banks that now own these homes a lot of money.

"Typically on a national average, they're loosing about $50,000 per home. Back in the 80's when I started doing this they were loosing an average of $25,000," Walker explained.

Look around and you'll see light fixtures gone, and wires hanging out of walls and floors. This house is just one example, and it gets even worse.

"Sometimes they will strip a house down to the bare studs. I mean sheet rock, bathtubs, all the kitchen cabinets, everything totally stripped out of the house," Walker said.

Just outside, we find an empty concrete pad, where the airconditioner once sat. The wires and plumbing still dangle from the walls.

Back inside, the attic ladder was ripped out leaving a gaping hole in the ceiling - the electric wiring in the attic is gone too.

As are the kitchen appliances and counters.

You've heard the old expression, take everything and the kitchen sink? Well in this case that applies because the kitchen sink is gone too, and realtors say sometimes they find other surprises in the kitchen.

"Like in the kitchen drawers, and things like that people have actually went to the bathroom and just left that in the kitchen drawers for people," Walker said.

Walker said in almost all local foreclosures the owners never talked with their lender - they just got mad and decided to get even.

Walker said "I guess the main thing is people need to be more aware that they should be talking to their lender and try to resolve things, trying to stay out of foreclosure. There's so many avenues right now because the lender does not want their houses."

In almost all cases like this one the owners who were foreclosed on are not prosecuted because it's hard to prove they did the damage.

In Georgia, officials there say owners are taking even more desperate measures. Walker County fire marshal Waymond Westbrook said the number of arsons is on the rise and he says foreclosed owners are suspected in several cases.

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In many cases it isn't only the homeowners, but roving gangs of theives.

If 40-80% of the houses in an area are vacant, who is there to report the crimes?

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Originally Posted by 101A

Bullshit.

These "assets" are available for pennies on the dollar RIGHT NOW!!!

The powerful are waiting around to see if they can get MORE THAN THEY ARE WORTH from the taxpayer.

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Yes, that is correct. The theory does require the government to buy the securities for greater than market value. If they buy them for current market value, it doesn't really solve the problem, because the current market valuation is what is pushing everybody into bankruptcy.

Citi and BoA bought the other banks in anticipation of a buyout. If there's no buyout, they go under regardless of whether they buy WaMu and Wachovia. If there is a buyout, they get those assets dirt cheap and make a killing.

It's really unfair that there might be a safety net for the rich. Really unfair. It's just that when they fall, they also crush all of us underneath them.

If you want revenge, you could always try the terrorist route. That's what the working classes did 100 years ago.

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Originally Posted by RandomGuy

That is a good question. The people who are vacating them are, quite often, stripping them down to the studs. Appliances, copper wires, copper tubes, fixtures, etc.

Hard to sell that kind of property.

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What percentage of homes are currently in default?

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Originally Posted by 101A

What percentage of homes are currently in default?

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9%.

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Originally Posted by Extra Stout

Yes, that is correct. The theory does require the government to buy the securities for greater than market value. If they buy them for current market value, it doesn't really solve the problem, because the current market valuation is what is pushing everybody into bankruptcy.

Citi and BoA bought the other banks in anticipation of a buyout. If there's no buyout, they go under regardless of whether they buy WaMu and Wachovia. If there is a buyout, they get those assets dirt cheap and make a killing.

It's really unfair that there might be a safety net for the rich. Really unfair. It's just that when they fall, they also crush all of us underneath them.

If you want revenge, you could always try the terrorist route. That's what the working classes did 100 years ago.

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Does the centralization of the credit markets to the Federal govt. not raise any red flags for you?

May prevent some economic disaster now, but at what cost? What can future (wise, prudent), lawmakers do with what is being proposed now, that we cannot imagine?

How does letting the people off the hook that did this, and leaving them in charge, help anything?

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Originally Posted by Extra Stout

If you want revenge, you could always try the terrorist route. That's what the working classes did 100 years ago.

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I already loaded up on shotgun shells and found a used Anarchist Cookbook at Borders. I'm ready.

About 2.75 percent of all home loans, or about 1.75 million mortgages, were in foreclosure at the end of June, up from 2.47 percent in March. That was the highest foreclosure rate since 1979, when the Mortgage Bankers first collected the data.

The number of loans that were past due by less than three months fell to 4.58 percent, from 4.72 percent, the first decline since the start of 2006. Foreclosure rates were highest in California, Florida, Michigan, Nevada and Ohio.

Analysts and industry officials offered several explanations for the decline in delinquencies. The $100 billion in federal tax rebates that were sent out in the spring and early summer probably helped some families pay their bills, while efforts to modify adjustable rate loans may have helped others.

But the economic stimulus from the rebates appears to be wearing off, and the job market is weakening faster. The Labor Department reported on Friday that the unemployment rate climbed to 6.1 percent in August, up from 5.7 percent in July.

“The data over all still suggests that mortgage quality is weak, and I would expect that there will be further weakening and foreclosures that occur before the housing market improves,” said Celia Chen, director of housing research at Moody’s Economy.com.

A crucial concern is the fate of prime loans, which account for most home mortgages outstanding. Delinquencies on these loans have been rising fast over the last year and a half, and many analysts are worried they could climb higher because many borrowers with interest-only and other creative loans may not be able to make the higher principal and interest payments when their favorable introductory terms end.

At the end of June, 5.35 percent of prime loans were past due or in foreclosure, up from 4.93 in March. By contrast, 30.48 percent of subprime loans were past due or in foreclosure, up from 29.53 percent.

:wow


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http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/06/business/06lend.html

6 september 2008