There has to be a huge amount of fraud and misrepresentation, but BushCo is loath to prosecute white-collar crime.Quote:
Originally Posted by 101A
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There has to be a huge amount of fraud and misrepresentation, but BushCo is loath to prosecute white-collar crime.Quote:
Originally Posted by 101A
you're assuming they do any real planning. They are just seizing the opportunity of the moment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Extra Stout
I'm not going to argue with you that the power in the democrat party is clueless. However, there were enough republicans to stymie any real reform. Now the republicans have it in their heads that the financial destruction to come somehow will limit the size of government and chase away all the illegals.:lol Largest increase in government happened because of the depression, so lets bring on another to shrink the size of government. Talk about not learning anything from history.Quote:
To the GOP's credit, the financial hawk wing of the party started making noise about problems in Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac back in 2004 or thereabouts. The Democrats called them bigots. I guess the Fannie Mae chairman must have been black or something. I guess it is racist to call somebody out for falsifying financial results in order to deliver himself a bonus when in reality the company is losing billions. It's TOTALLY different from when Enron executives did it.
The government started this mess and now they want to bail. Atleast Bush is trying to do the right thing here.Quote:
Not that the Bush Administration did anything about it, but when have they ever done anything?
I'm not looking for you to copy and paste an opinion. Give me your well thought out ideas, because apparently the well thought out ideas of the American public is what's holding up this deal.Quote:
Originally Posted by 101A
The one thing is that its so tough to believe Paulson right now. He's been firing the magic bullet for some time now. This is just the latest one. How are we to know this one is going to work?
We need a fundamental change in this country. I understand your position ES because its been my position. And really, if a bailout passes I won't be upset, but by the same token you cannot deny that this country needs fundemental financial change and thats not going to happen by any means other than a whole lot of people hurting a whole lot.
That's what I've been doing.Quote:
Originally Posted by 2centsworth
1. I don't trust the govt.
2. The bailout gives the govt. unprecedented control of our mortgage market. (Here's an idea - "progressive" interest rates - could mirror the tax code)
3. I dont trust the people who got us into this mess.
4. The bailout allows those people to probably exploit the system for even more money - no doubt ALREADY have teams of accountants and lawyers figuring out how to do so with every proposal out there.
5. I believe strongly that people should be personally responsible for their actions; that includes those who took out the loans, sold the loans, packages the loans, etc....
6. Our economy, such as it is, is a house of cards; built on deficit spending and loans that, combined, have infused us with a wealth that isn't real. Hell, I could get a quarter of a million dollars in credit card debt, and live REAL GOOD for a little while; eventually it HAS to end. Our society must produce, and not just consume, otherwise, eventually, it WILL all come crashing down. This just delays the inevitable. Can't we be a generation that doesn't pass the buck?
7. I don't believe the naysayers; that it will be a depression level event. If our economy slows that much, fuels gonna get cheaper, jobs are gonna come home, etc.. We still have the most productive work force in the country, and by and large Americans want to work. We have resources, both natural and personal that will succeed. Third World? Please.
I never envisioned a scenario like the one ES laid out simply because our infrastructure is too damn good. This isn't 1933 without a real solid infrastructure from head to toe.
My head is spinning from reading these posts.
You guys really need to understand that even if the bailout works the problem has not been fixed. It's going to collpase at some point and the longer it gets put off the bigger it is going to be.
I have confidence in the US economy and when the going gets tough...the US gets going!!! There will be hard times but if we pull together as Americans always do we will get through this and be better for it. YES WE CAN!!Quote:
Originally Posted by whottt
Oh shit.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeChalupa
I've changed my mind.
I'm pro-bailout.
I don't believe you...link???:p:Quote:
Originally Posted by 101A
:rofl
I'm telling you, Joe Chalupa's posts make me want to poke my yes out.
:lmaoQuote:
Originally Posted by JoeChalupa
As of 2:20 the DOW is up over 360 points.
Does this mean the zombie hordes aren't coming? And I shouldn't rip out grannies fillings to melt down for bullets?
Its a tarp pull the fillingsQuote:
Originally Posted by 1369
The DOW is up because no one really expects Congress to sit by and do nothing. No one is buying into that. I promise you if they sit on their asses and do pass it Thursday you'll see another drop comapreable to yesterday.Quote:
Originally Posted by 1369
http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/a...tarp-30198.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by BacktoBasics
Hey grannie, lean back, wouldja?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 101A
Ok.
no it doesn't. taking assets off the balance sheets of banks gives the control back to the banks.Quote:
2. The bailout gives the govt. unprecedented control of our mortgage market. (Here's an idea - "progressive" interest rates - could mirror the tax code)
that's redundant. Fannie and Freddie deserve about 90% of the blame. btw, Fannie and Freddie are essentially government agencies. Oh yes.. governement deserves 90% of the blame here.Quote:
3. I dont trust the people who got us into this mess.
will be an investors paradise, but I happen to love honest real estate investors. They tend to use free market principles to clean up the streets.Quote:
4. The bailout allows those people to probably exploit the system for even more money - no doubt ALREADY have teams of accountants and lawyers figuring out how to do so with every proposal out there.
Me too, so we blow up the entire bill for a few concessions. I don't think anyone is talking about paying off someones mortgage, but instead allowing them to refi and pay the money back themselves.Quote:
5. I believe strongly that people should be personally responsible for their actions; that includes those who took out the loans, sold the loans, packages the loans, etc....
economics 101. What we produce must be consumed in order for there to be more production. What ever happened to the Republicans harping on production? I thought the republicans were the party of growth? Somehow you think you're teaching someone a lesson, but all you're really trying to do is send this country back to the stone age.Quote:
6. Our economy, such as it is, is a house of cards; built on deficit spending and loans that, combined, have infused us with a wealth that isn't real. Hell, I could get a quarter of a million dollars in credit card debt, and live REAL GOOD for a little while; eventually it HAS to end. Our society must produce, and not just consume, otherwise, eventually, it WILL all come crashing down. This just delays the inevitable. Can't we be a generation that doesn't pass the buck?
Do you hate America? I swear the Republicans have turned into liberals. They hate Americans and what we stand for. Yeah, I see it now, the Fred Flintstone days are way better than they are today.Quote:
7. I don't believe the naysayers; that it will be a depression level event. If our economy slows that much, fuels gonna get cheaper, jobs are gonna come home, etc.. We still have the most productive work force in the country, and by and large Americans want to work. We have resources, both natural and personal that will succeed. Third World? Please.
Will this be the next defining moment in our lives? So far thats obviously 9/11 and one would think nothing could top that, but this would seem to have potential if the worst case scenarios pan out.
So, congress did nothing yesterday and stocks took it in the shorts. And if something passes Thursday, stocks will take it in the shorts.Quote:
Originally Posted by MannyIsGod
Why anyone plays the market is a mystery to me.
Well, I for one am glad I invested in a Barrett Model 95 and about 150 rounds to go with it.
And who holds the paper for all of those mortgages, again?Quote:
Originally Posted by 2centsworth
For "essentially government agencies" they sure do a whole bunch of lobbying and donating to campaigns.Quote:
that's redundant. Fannie and Freddie deserve about 90% of the blame. btw, Fannie and Freddie are essentially government agencies. Oh yes.. governement deserves 90% of the blame here.
Honest being the operative word.Quote:
will be an investors paradise, but I happen to love honest real estate investors. They tend to use free market principles to clean up the streets.
Hell, NOBODIES talking about paying off anyone's mortgage - this is a decidedly one-sided bailout. And you support giving loans to people who JUST defaulted on their mortgages. These are sub-prime risks; giving them MORE loans just starts the cycle over again, doesn't it? Did I misunderstand you?Quote:
Me too, so we blow up the entire bill for a few concessions. I don't think anyone is talking about paying off someones mortgage, but instead allowing them to refi and pay the money back themselves.
I am harping on production; as it; we have been consuming MUCH more than we have been producing! Loans that aren't paid back at the personal, and Federal level, amount to spending what hasn't been produced...living large on credit.Quote:
economics 101. What we produce must be consumed in order for there to be more production. What ever happened to the Republicans harping on production? I thought the republicans were the party of growth? Somehow you think you're teaching someone a lesson, but all you're really trying to do is send this country back to the stone age.
I'm liberal for NOT wanting the govt. to bail out people and corps that made horrible decisions? That's liberal now? Who knew?Quote:
Do you hate America? I swear the Republicans have turned into liberals. They hate Americans and what we stand for. Yeah, I see it now, the Fred Flintstone days are way better than they are today.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MannyIsGod
Nah. For it to be a defining moment, it has to be in the history books. Do you have kids? Have you seen a history book lately? This is WAY too confusing for that!!! If it can't be explained in VERY short sentences, and with VERY large, colorful pictures, it won't make the cut!
Planes flying into buildings? Oh, yeah, there's a defining moment we can publish.
I meant to type don't not do. I'm running off no sleep after 36 hours. I'm allowed to fuck up a bit. :PQuote:
Originally Posted by 1369
But seriously, the market is an indicator but its a flawed one. I think in this situation its more important to keep tabs on the credit market and big time financial companies.
I don't think I could ever become an economist. This shit just honestly blows my mind. Not to sound cocky, but there aren't many things I feel like I can't get a fundamental grip on. Not that I'm an expert, but if I want to learn how a system works I read up on it and I tend to gain a decent understanding of things. I'm sure this works for many of us here because there are quite a few intelligent people posting here (especially in this thread - its been a great read imo).
That being said, how many of us are comfortable with this shit? Its so fucking complex that I feel I need a damn model just to conceptualize how interconnected and dependent things are.
In the end, I think I'm going to remember 2008 as one of the more historic yeas in my life. Its been such a fucking awesome ride so far. Its a bit scary right now, but I'd be lieing if I said I wasn't a bit wide eyed and just trying to take it all in.Quote:
Originally Posted by 101A
It's easy to understand.Quote:
Originally Posted by MannyIsGod
1. Bend Over
2. Grab Your Ankles.
3. View the World by looking between the prism between your legs.