Why I'm voting for .....

angel_luv...There is an interesting article in Relevant Magazine regarding Christians and voting. I found it really hit home with me as it reflects a lot about how I have been feeling as a Christian towards our leaders. Heres the link...

http://www.relevantmagazine.com/life...le.php?id=7616

I've voted for candidates that I don't "like" but they were who I though would do the better job. But in this case I like Obama and Biden and what little change McCain had to turn my vote....Sarah has blown it.

Plus, as a Spurs fan, I cannot support anything "Maverick" :lol

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Originally Posted by benefactor

angel_luv...There is an interesting article in Relevant Magazine regarding Christians and voting. I found it really hit home with me as it reflects a lot about how I have been feeling as a Christian towards our leaders. Heres the link...

http://www.relevantmagazine.com/life...le.php?id=7616

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Thanks! I'll read it. :)

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Originally Posted by angel_luv

I didn't like Bush when I voted for him in 2004- only voted for him because of his stance concerning abortion.

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Do you support comprehensive sex-ed or abstinence-only sex-ed?

Do you support programs like Head Start?

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Originally Posted by samikeyp

This is going to sound simplistic but I am going to vote for Obama because I feel he is the best candidate for the Office. This is a personal choice and not a suggested course of action for anyone. I am not going to try to convince you to vote the way I do so don't be so insulting as to attempt to try to convince me to vote your way.

On the subject of voting...I personally believe everyone should vote because too many people fought and died for us to have that right. However, recently I have come to believe that those same people fought and died for us to have the right not to use their vote if they don't feel the choices are worthy of said vote.

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This is where my confusion comes in...

My family has a LONG history of military service, so I've always felt compelled to vote no matter what.
But my own father, who served 20 years, said in the beginning that, if McCain was picked to represent the Rep. party, he would not vote.
He has since changed his mind, but now I'm there.

It's not that I dislike McCain. I have a lot of respect for him and all that he's been through and accomplished. But I feel like I'd be voting more against Obama than for McCain.

Either way, they're politicians, and I don't think I truly trust either side.

As my grandpa says, "They're all a bunch of crooks!" :lol

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Originally Posted by Findog

Do you support comprehensive sex-ed or abstinence-only sex-ed?

Do you support programs like Head Start?

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I also find myself asking if they support capital punishment. If they do, they either don't care about the severe inadequacies of the judicial system in convicting the actual perpetrator of the crime or they really don't know about it and choose to focus on abortion instead. It's really interesting to see people's responses.

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Originally Posted by angel_luv

I am going to vote for the two candidates that I feel will show the most honor to God and will honor those matters which I prioritize as a Christian.

I won't make my final decision until I step into the voting booth because I am taking into account all information, as it is being made available.

However, were I called upon to vote this second, I would choose Senator McCain and Govenor Palin.

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So you believe that dinosaurs and humans roamed the earth together a mere 5000 years ago?

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Originally Posted by Shastafarian

I also find myself asking if they support capital punishment. If they do, they either don't care about the severe inadequacies of the judicial system in convicting the actual perpetrator of the crime or they really don't know about it and choose to focus on abortion instead. It's really interesting to see people's responses.

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I can respect a pro-life point of view if it is accompanied by opposition to the death penalty and support for policies that would actually result in fewer unplanned pregnancies. I'll give pro-life supporters somewhat of a pass on support for the Iraq War because some may misguidedly believe it was a necessary conflict.

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Originally Posted by angel_luv

Thanks! I'll read it. :)

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Lengthy but excellent article. These were my favorite parts:
http://www.relevantmagazine.com/life...le.php?id=7616

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Campolo agrees. “My contention is that if anybody asks if you’re a Democrat or a Republican, the answer should be, ‘Please name the issue,’” he says. “On certain issues, I’m going to come across as someone who likes what the Republicans say, and on other issues I will come across as saying what the Democrats say.”

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In fact, Campolo became so disenchanted with the politicization of evangelical Christianity that he and a group of Christian authors and thinkers have chosen all themselves Red Letter Christians, a reference to the words of Christ being printed in red in some Bibles. Campolo hopes to break the stereotype that one political party has a monopoly on Christianity.

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For us, the litmus test for whether we’re a Christian nation is, does it look like Jesus?

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Haw adds that the idea of nationalism is often theologically unsound. He says that being “born again” should mean, from a theological standpoint, that Christians have a new and different citizenship. “Theologically, born again didn’t just mean that you have a spiritual attitude to your life. It literally meant that you’re joining into this people of Abraham that are a holy nation, set apart. There seems to be evidence all over the Bible that this is a very concrete people. You’re latching yourself onto this other nation. Now when you use the word we or our, your identity is connected to a different group of people, a diasporic people. That’s not just linguistic gymnastics. It’s biblical realism. Without that, our nationalism is misguided.”

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Claiborne says that this was a concept understood well by the early Church. In a time when allegiance to Rome was not only expected, but required, early Christians maintained a peculiarity and attitude set apart from the empire in which they lived. “The early Christians said a Christian could only be emperor if he decided not to be a Christian,” Claiborne says. “There was a deep collision of identities between your citizenship on earth and your citizenship in heaven.”

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Thus, say Claiborne and Haw, Christians should belong to a citizenship that is transnational. “What does it mean to be born again?” Claiborne asks. “For Christians, there’s got to be a sense that there’s something that runs deeper than what’s born of the flesh—my biology, my ethnicity, my nation-state. Our central identity is in this reborn people of God that’s transnational.”

In this context, patriotism can seem like a vice. However, Claiborne and Haw believe it’s all about keeping an appropriate perspective. “A love for our own people is not a bad thing, but it’s a love that doesn’t stop at the border,” Claiborne says.

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Claiborne believes Christians can celebrate the good in America without falling prey to the idea that the United States, rather than Christ, is the hope of the world. “We want to celebrate the things that America and leaders of this country do well and right,” he says. “There’s plenty of them, but there’s also plenty of things historically and currently that don’t look like Jesus. That’s why it’s so important to differentiate them. Our hope and what we’re called to is to remind the world of Jesus, to be like Jesus, to take the words of Jesus seriously. We will applaud people when they do that, and we will interrupt and prophesy when they don’t.”

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With this in mind, how can we chart a new course? How can we see society transformed when we have to be wary of involvement in the system? Claiborne and Haw believe that the importance lies in keeping our perspective. “There are a lot of models in Scripture,” Claiborne says. “There are prophets who are on the margins. There are prophets in the royal court. There are people who are engaged in a lot of different ways. One of the tricky things is to maintain the peculiarity and the distinctiveness of being a Christian.”

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“For those of us working legislatively, we can’t compromise on things like, ‘We’re going to beat our swords into plowshares,’” he says. “That’s what we’re called to, and to bless the poor and meek. If we don’t hear any of these parties saying something that embodies that, then we don’t put our hand in with it. There are a number of ways you can call that. You can work for the Kingdom of God and align yourself with whatever seems to move us closer to that. It’s possible to say we’re also going to interrupt with grace and humility whatever seems to be standing in the way of the reign of God. One way of looking at voting is that it’s damage control. We’re in a sense voting against whatever is going to do the worst damage.”

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Part of the beauty of it is saying, ‘We’re going to trust that the Spirit is at work in different people’s hearts in different ways.’ Ultimately, [we hope] whatever they do is seeking first the Kingdom of God and embodying their politics with their lives rather than just trusting in a single candidate or a single politician to change the world for them.”

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Haw adds that action on the part of Christians far eclipses their party affiliation. “What is more important than how we vote on Nov. 4 is how we live on Nov. 3 and Nov. 5,” he says.

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So, how should Christians engage the political arena? That is the question. If Claiborne and Haw are any indication, the choice is up to the individual. No matter what that individual decides, though, they must realize that true change will never happen through legislation alone. And, no matter what the individual chooses to do, they must realize that they are already voting through the way they choose to live.

“We vote every day with our lives,” Claiborne says. “We vote every day with our feet, our hands, our lips and our wallets. We vote for the poor. We vote for the peacemakers. We vote for the marginalized, the oppressed, the most vulnerable of our society. Ultimate change does not just happen one day every four years.”

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Originally Posted by Shastafarian

I also find myself asking if they support capital punishment. If they do, they either don't care about the severe inadequacies of the judicial system in convicting the actual perpetrator of the crime or they really don't know about it and choose to focus on abortion instead. It's really interesting to see people's responses.

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Personally, I'm pro-life, but I also don't feel it's the government's place to tell women what we can and can't do with our bodies.
I know this doesn't exactly fit with many other Christians' views, but I have a problem with government having too much say in our personal lives. Abortion is one of those ways.

As far as the death penalty goes...
I think it's human nature to want to see some vile human being suffer for their heinous crimes...an eye for an eye mentality.
BUT...once I get past that initial reaction, I don't think I could ever sentence someone to death, regardless of their crimes.
As a Christian, I just don't think it's my place to decide when and how someone's life ends.

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Originally Posted by SpursFanFirst

Personally, I'm pro-life, but I also don't feel it's the government's place to tell women what we can and can't do with our bodies.
I know this doesn't exactly fit with many other Christians' views, but I have a problem with government having too much say in our personal lives. Abortion is one of those ways.

As far as the death penalty goes...
I think it's human nature to want to see some vile human being suffer for their heinous crimes...an eye for an eye mentality.
BUT...once I get past that initial reaction, I don't think I could ever sentence someone to death, regardless of their crimes.
As a Christian, I just don't think it's my place to decide when and how someone's life ends.

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Fair take. Do you have any opinions on the current system?

My question for those who supported Bush because of his abortion stance.

What did he do to stop abortions? They are still legal. Roe v. Wade is nowhere close to ever being overturned. Abstinence only education has outright failed. In short nothing has really changed.

There is so much more to your vote than just abortion. Don't be so close minded.

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Originally Posted by TomBrady

My question for those who supported Bush because of his abortion stance.

What did he do to stop abortions? They are still legal. Roe v. Wade is nowhere close to ever being overturned. Abstinence only education has outright failed. In short nothing has really changed.

There is so much more to your vote than just abortion. Don't be so close minded.

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People on both sides of that issue that make it their top priority don't seem to realize that the status quo is what both parties want.

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Originally Posted by SpursFanFirst

This is where my confusion comes in...

My family has a LONG history of military service, so I've always felt compelled to vote no matter what.
But my own father, who served 20 years, said in the beginning that, if McCain was picked to represent the Rep. party, he would not vote.
He has since changed his mind, but now I'm there.

It's not that I dislike McCain. I have a lot of respect for him and all that he's been through and accomplished. But I feel like I'd be voting more against Obama than for McCain.

Either way, they're politicians, and I don't think I truly trust either side.

As my grandpa says, "They're all a bunch of crooks!" :lol

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Grandpa is wise! :lol :toast

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Originally Posted by Shastafarian

Fair take. Do you have any opinions on the current system?

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I wish the death penalty was abolished, but I highly doubt that will ever happen.

It is very likely there have been many innocent people found guilty and put to death...and some who have been found guilty but exonerated before it was too late.

Obama because Sarah Palin is a dipshit

Obama for soooo many reasons, but mostly because of his initial opposition to the illegal Iraq war....but also to help bring America back from the abyss the Bush administration has put us in fiscally and morally....

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Originally Posted by SpursFanFirst

I wish the death penalty was abolished, but I highly doubt that will ever happen.

It is very likely there have been many innocent people found guilty and put to death...and some who have been found guilty but exonerated before it was too late.

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That's admirable. Do you think it's a greater tragedy when a guilty man goes free or when an innocent man is punished?

Haven't gotten around to responding in here, yet.

My biggest issues in this election (and, for the most part, in general) are gay rights, reproductive justice, the economy, the Iraq ugliness, and the environment. Not in that order. In all five of those areas, Obama's policies are more in line with my own beliefs, so I'm going with Obama.

Furthermore, I LIKE that he's well spoken, polished, and well educated. I tend to think that "elitist" is more a positive than a negative, especially when it comes to giving someone the job of running my country. And especially after eight years of having the village idiot in control.

I did not, however, wholly support Obama before he earned the nomination, as I have concerns about his lack of experience. I've always liked him, and I've always been pretty sure that I would be voting a Democratic ticket in this election, but he wasn't my favorite swimmer in the pool a year ago. In short, I will be voting for Obama, but I do not think he is the Messiah.

Bump for DR

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Originally Posted by DarkReign

I wanted to be fair to both candidates for this election. Its the first time in my short life that I would feel very comfortable with either candidate as President. I mean that sincerely.

So there had to be some mitigating circumstance to delineate the two.

McCain: Unfortunately for McCain, imo, he is an older man with health issues directly and indirectly (melanoma) related to his service to this country. While commendable and highly honorable, his VP pick was of the highest importance to me (an tbh, I would hope its important to everyone else as well) in respect to those health concerns. I voted for McCain in the 2000 primaries, so when he picked Palin, I was a little heartbroken. At first Palin was an absolute disaster as a VP pick. It reeked of political pandering, not a shoring of his deficiencies. Weeks later, it looks ever-so-slightly better....when I say slightly, I mean very slight. So what is slightly better than a total fucking disaster? A train wreck?

Obama: Obama was an unknown quantity. My initial impressions of him were probably the same that everyone else had. Smart, eloquent and a total rookie. But there is a part of me that has always wondered what a non-partisan, non-politician would do in the Oval Office. Obama is the closest thing to that notion in my voting lifetime (Perot being the other in my lifetime). Obviously, with his inexperience, his VP pick was important (but, imo, less so than McCain's). He picked a guy to shore up his weakest attribute by selecting a long-standing member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. Thats a damn good pick.

So with an obvious bias towards Obama to start this internal-reasoning process, I moved on to the issues that are important to me.

Domestic Policy: Both candidates are going to bankrupt our nation. In no time have I ever seen two candidates from opposing parties so closely aligned with the ruin of our nation. Makes me think conspiracy, but anyway... There just isnt much difference between the two in their approach to this economic downturn. Sadly, neither share my view of the situation, but thats to be expected really. I am of the mind the entire system of government needs to be torn to shreds and rewritten, so its no surprise to me that a candidate from one the major parties does not share that sentiment.

IMO, education is the single most important issue of all time, no matter the generation. It has never been treated that way (on purpose, imo) but it should. So Obama's plan to give a $4k credit to students for tuition in exchange for X amount of hours of community service is downright excellent.

Its like a double dip of awesome in that you have young people attending college and youre forcing them to get involved in their community. When I heard that, I'll admit, I was swayed. It got me to thinking what welfare recipients should be forced to do and any other recipient of government assistance should be forced to do. To me, its this sort of thinking that needs to be re-instilled into Americans.

Abortion I could care less about, one way or the other. If its overturned, oh well. If not, who cares? I am personally of the mind that it should be a woman's right to choose (no late term though), especially in cases of rape and incest or the mother's health is at risk. But this entire issue I see as just a distraction (a wedge issue) to pander to the religious, self-appointed moral supervisors of our time who in turn pander to their chosen "Man of the Sky".

Taxation... yeah....see the first part of Domestic Policy. Ruinous on both sides. One favors the middle class and poor, one favors the status quo. Its class warfare with no discernible winner. I mean that only in today's relevant environment. In time, a shared responsibility (Fair Tax) could be beneficial, but its just not realistic at this point with an ever-rising national debt. Also, a Fair Tax would force Congress to do its fucking job (you know, balance the fucking budget) which is just entirely too much to ask. They were tasked by the Constitution "To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures", but they found that entirely too hard and gave that responsibility away as soon as they hit the first big hurdle. Cant have that sort of problem hanging around your neck in an election year, might as well privatize our monetary system (John Adams would be absolutely rolling in his grave if he were alive today).

Foreign Policy: Iraq needs to end. Shouldnt have been there in the first place, but we are. No use going back and forth on whose fault it is, better to just come up with a solution. The sooner the better but not at the expense of an unstable government in Iraq. Obviously I lean toward Obama on this issue.

I am of the mind that diplomatic relations with any and all countries is important. No matter our status with them. Keep channels open...wtf is so bad about that? Our meeting with them legitimizes their positions? Are you kidding? They dont need verification from the US to "legitimize" their position. They hold said position because they can, whether by force or cult of personality.

I dont hear any politicians complaining about meeting with China. They are not a democracy, they are not an open society even. But we dont mind because they loan us money and their consumer market is about to eclipse the US in its best days. Why do you think our government is so complicit with them? Because theyre going to pass us economically, thats inevitable, our lobbyist-controlled government knows where their bread is buttered and it isnt by we citizens. The Corporations of this country see an emerging market like never before seen in the history of the world, not even America's emergence. They have 9 million new drivers per year who buy new cars (not including existing drivers) just to name one area of intense interest. Its the same reason Japan is playing nice as well. They know where theyll be sending their electronic gadgets in 10-15 years, better to hold palaver now.

But thats ok, I guess. Whatever...no politician in my lifetime sees the world the way I do personally (maybe Ron Paul, but thats iffy at best). So I have to stick to the major affairs and judge accordingly.

The War on Terror is complete bullshit. Its the "War on Drugs" or the "War on Crime" or the "War on <insert vague noun here>" of our time and just as effective. There is no war with terrorists. If it were, it wouldnt make them terrorists now would it? No, theyd be an army if we could actually go to "war" with them.

Theyre an irregular opponent masked under extreme religious convictions and covered by the societies they dwell in. There is no winning with them, only more death. The best you can do with terrorism is what we did in Afghanistan. Ally with the government, drive them out of the country.

Because then you see where they run. Seeing a cockroach and killing it is one thing. Finding out where they live and breed is another, more important piece of info. At least we know who are not our allies and treat them accordingly. That means no aid whatsoever to them or their proxies.

Anyway, I am digressing here. Neither candidate thinks the same way as me, so its more or less a wash. What it came down to was America's perception abroad. Bush took 100+ years of excellent foreign relations and flushed them down the toilet in less than 6 years. We are a fucking shadow of our former selves (in foreign clout, I mean) thanks to that fucking born-again idiot.

Its my opinion that either candidate would do wonders to repair that reputation. Hell, I would do wonders in contrast to Bush. But seriously, McCain or Obama would at least show the world that not all Americans are spineless, redneck cowboy retards afraid of their own shadow because you got your lipped bloodied in a skirmish 7 years ago. Show them, and more importantly other Americans, that we are not cowards and that terrorists or any other unconventional threats will not rule our entire existence in any way, shape or form.

Foreign policy I lean with neither candidate. Both are significant upgrades over our current POTUS. Total wash in my opinion, the differences just arent that striking to me, and neither actually share my worldview...so fuck it.

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All in all, I am going to vote for Obama. Mainly on the health of McCain and his deplorable VP pick. Its an insult to Americans in general, imo, that in a country that really only allows you a choice of two, that one of them would pick an absolutely divisive character who actively encourages other Americans to see the other candidate as an associate of terrorists, that there are parts of America that are universally un-American and that foreign policy experience is gained simply by your proximity to a foreign land. Because if thats the case, you Texans are experts on Mexico and I'm an expert on Canada.

Again, her as a VP wouldnt be a deal-breaker if McCain was (shit, I dont know) 60 years old instead of 72 (when inaugurated). But he is 72, he has health problems, he is a former POW with lingering handicaps from that terrible ordeal and frankly, that dumb, pandering, divisive bitch scares the living shit out of me if she were actually POTUS.

Quite literally, scares the shit out of me.

Then again, since I am for the dissolution of our government in its current form, maybe the better pick would be McCain in the hopes that he does die in office so that broad can be promoted. Then she would have to confirm my previous suspicion of being dangerous and start suspending rights, starting wars and generally running amok because her campaign is guided only by "God", not that silly, old-boy network in Washington they call "Congress" while making moral platitudes about where and when the "inalienable rights" granted to all human beings thats written into the Constitution should be applied in times of war. And since we have a vague, ever changing "War on Terror" with no clear battlefield or discernible opponent, we will always be (technically) at war and therefore the powers of POTUS are nearly limitless.

Hmm...come to think of it...

But seriously, my one reservation about Obama has nothing to do with Obama himself. It has everything to do with giving over Congress and the White House to Democrats. Make no mistake, they will fuck up just as bad in the next 4 years as the Republicans did with the first 6 of Bush's reign.

So once again I find myself, as we all do every time this year (if you have one non-partisan bone in your body that is) with a choice of a "lesser of two evils".

*sigh*

I hate this government with the very fabric of my being for this kind of subversive, obviously tainted election bullshit. Red hot fury of a thousand suns. We are being conned by a very few, powerful individuals into thinking there is actually a difference between these two situations/candidates.

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I guess we can continue this here... quoted is DR's post

McCain is clueless when it comes to the economy and isn't articulate enough to persuade the democrats to draft any meaningful reform. Palin is too much of an unknown for me. She's charismatic and seems to have potential, but she needs way more time to hone her skill.

Obama is as far left as I have ever seen in national politics. His spread the wealth comment scares me. What's scarier is that we will see censorship against the right in the form of the fairness doctrine. Obama takes our country in a very dangerous direction. Biden is a clown and will be told to take a 4 year vacation.

These are the two most imperfect choices I have ever been given.

The best thing for this country is for the republicans to regroup and bring some strong principled talent to the table next time. The real change this country needs is within the Republican Party IMO, but the GOP is too far off course to make a difference now.

So I'm torn, do I vote for the better of two candidates or do I vote for the better of two projected outcomes?

I'm going to vote for ________? I still haven't decided, but I'm leaning Bob Barr.

Obama.

McCain/Palin scare me. Seriously.

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Originally Posted by DisgruntledLionFan#54,927

Obama.

McCain/Palin scare me. Seriously.

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why do they scare you?