40 States Pave Way For Next-Generation Craigslist

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/07/te...gslist.html?hp

In order to prove that the war on drugs has taught them nothing, 40 states have now made it nearly impossible for the adult industry to advertise on Craigslist. The pressure from the government has made sure that adult-related content is charged an additional fee to advertise to cover the extra costs associated by the extra policing of content.

War. Economy in a free-fall. Education in tatters. But escorts will now have to find a new place to advertise.

Do these people not understand that it's called the oldest profession for a reason?

Drugs and sex are perennial targets for the still-Puritanical USA, but guns, violence, etc. get a pass.

Why is the right always trying to keep down small business owners?

What a joke, this country calls itself the land of the free and then outlaws drugs and prostitution. What a person does on his own time should be no one else's business as long as he's not hurting anyone nor destroying property.

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Originally Posted by baseline bum

What a joke, this country calls itself the land of the free and then outlaws drugs and prostitution. What a person does on his own time should be no one else's business as long as he's not hurting anyone nor destroying property.

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So if a guy sleeps with a prostitute who might have an STD, is he then expected to remain chaste for the rest of his life except for other prostitutes? Because otherwise what you are implying is much more than simply a man getting his rocks off.

Well, hopefully they won't censor any child pornography. Our youngsters need to get a head start on their sex education.

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Originally Posted by Cry Havoc

So if a guy sleeps with a prostitute who might have an STD, is he then expected to remain chaste for the rest of his life except for other prostitutes? Because otherwise what you are implying is much more than simply a man getting his rocks off.

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Who sleeps with a hooker? You kick them out after 30 minutes.

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Originally Posted by Cry Havoc

So if a guy sleeps with a prostitute who might have an STD, is he then expected to remain chaste for the rest of his life except for other prostitutes? Because otherwise what you are implying is much more than simply a man getting his rocks off.

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Prostitution laws are in place to stop STDs?

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Originally Posted by MannyIsGod

Prostitution laws are in place to stop STDs?

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Laws are in place to protect people?

So no one should be able to legally fuck bareback?

yes let's just reduce ourselves to animals.

-Mars

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Originally Posted by baseline bum

What a joke, this country calls itself the land of the free and then outlaws drugs and prostitution. What a person does on his own time should be no one else's business as long as he's not hurting anyone nor destroying property.

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So, in your opinion, people should be able to do whatever they want, whenever they want to?

I'd like to introduce you to my brother in law. He's a crack addict. They won't arrest him, however, because he's ALSO a diabetic, and now on dialysis. State of Texas DOES NOT want to pay that bill, so they simply take him "home" when he is caught in a crack house.

He is a walking, talking example of legalized drugs. It's a gorgeous site, really. Lies, cheats, steals, has beat up his old man - all for a fix.

You got any daughters, btw? I'm thinking we ought not legalize that profession, either - legalized drugs AND prostititution? Can YOU do that math?

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What a joke, this country calls itself the land of the free and then feels it has the right and obligation, by threat of death, to confiscate half of my income, take more of my money any time I want to purchase something, and then tax me annually on the value of what I finally do purchase.

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Unfortunately, this isn't a right issue. Those on the left have just as bad a track record, and we can't pretend that the DOJ of 40 states is all red. But the out-of-whack priorities is a bit staggering.

The truth is that laws against this kind of thing are stupid. Legalized prostitution would generate tax revenue and increase the health benefits of society by being able to regulate the industry. When an industry stops having to operate behind the scenes, it cleans up its act. Much like the porn industry now generates lots of tax revenue and is held to higher standards of hygienic and fair practices.

Child pornography would still be illegal, and those fighting child porn would benefit largely because more time and resources could go into tracking down real criminals instead of two adults having consensual sex.

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Originally Posted by 101A

So, in your opinion, people should be able to do whatever they want, whenever they want to?

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To their own bodies or with other 100% consenting adults? Yes.

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Originally Posted by 101A

I'd like to introduce you to my brother in law. He's a crack addict. They won't arrest him, however, because he's ALSO a diabetic, and now on dialysis. State of Texas DOES NOT want to pay that bill, so they simply take him "home" when he is caught in a crack house.

He is a walking, talking example of legalized drugs. It's a gorgeous site, really. Lies, cheats, steals, has beat up his old man - all for a fix.

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He is a walking, talking example of ADDICTION. It's a shame your family has to endure him, but his situation would be the same if he were an alcoholic and alcohol is perfectly legal. His situation would also be the same if he got his high off sniffing legal solvents. It's not the legality of the substance - it's his addiction that makes him a sorry case.

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Originally Posted by 101A

You got any daughters, btw? I'm thinking we ought not legalize that profession, either - legalized drugs AND prostititution? Can YOU do that math?

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That profession is already legal in many countries and in at least one of our own. Oddly, the sky has not fallen. The overall crime rate in Nevada has continued to decline for the last two decades while the population has increased. There has been a slight jump in crime in Las Vegas proper, but prostitution is not legal there.

What math were you asking about?

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Originally Posted by 101A

So, in your opinion, people should be able to do whatever they want, whenever they want to?

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Yes, if it is not directly attacking someone else or their property.

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I'd like to introduce you to my brother in law. He's a crack addict. They won't arrest him, however, because he's ALSO a diabetic, and now on dialysis. State of Texas DOES NOT want to pay that bill, so they simply take him "home" when he is caught in a crack house.

He is a walking, talking example of legalized drugs. It's a gorgeous site, really. Lies, cheats, steals, has beat up his old man - all for a fix.

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I'm sorry to hear that, but substitute alcohol for crack and you'll see the exact same story over and over.

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You got any daughters, btw? I'm thinking we ought not legalize that profession, either - legalized drugs AND prostititution? Can YOU do that math?

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Nope, I don't have (or ever want) kids.

Prostitution should absolutely be legal. Better for someone to whore themselves out for decent money than to McDonalds for shit pay if they don't have other skills. If someone wants to just go out and get laid without having to play games and feign interest, I don't see what's wrong with it. Just because it doesn't agree with the church's definition of acceptable sex within marriage doesn't mean it merits being a crime.

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Originally Posted by MaryAnnKilledGinger

What math were you asking about?

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The easiest way to make money for an addict.

BTW, Alcohol and Crack addiction ARE NOT the same.

I've got no problem with weed being legal, btw.

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Originally Posted by baseline bum

Prostitution should absolutely be legal. Better for someone to whore themselves out for decent money

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You ever heard of supply and demand.

You legalize it everywhere, THEN you tax it - pay won't be so good, I'm betting.

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Originally Posted by 101A

BTW, Alcohol and Crack addiction ARE NOT the same.

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On this we completely agree, and I can even see some reason in legislating extremely harmful substances (crack, meth) on a more strict basis than minor recreational substances (pot, alcohol).

However, from a legislative perspective, I believe the focus needs to be on the producers of extremely harmful substances and not the addicts and victims who need as many resources as we can offer for rehabilitation and recovery.

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Originally Posted by 101A

You ever heard of supply and demand.

You legalize it everywhere, THEN you tax it - pay won't be so good, I'm betting.

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Are you telling me strip clubs are going to magically become cheap then?

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Originally Posted by baseline bum

Are you telling me strip clubs are going to magically become cheap then?

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Damn. You beat me to that. +1

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Originally Posted by 101A

You ever heard of supply and demand.

You legalize it everywhere, THEN you tax it - pay won't be so good, I'm betting.

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Have you heard of Tijuana, Mexico? They look the other way with regards to prostitution there, and the hookers are still able to pull the average citizen's weekly pay in about 30 minutes of work.

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Originally Posted by MaryAnnKilledGinger

However, from a legislative perspective, I believe the focus needs to be on the producers of extremely harmful substances and not the addicts and victims who need as many resources as we can offer for rehabilitation and recovery.

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This has been going on with my brother in law for 15 years now; he has spent 3 of those years in rehab - and never had to pay a dime for any of it. He did spend 3 in jail, not for drug possession, but for hot-checks and assault. Nothing has cured him. I understand he is an extreme case, but from what I can tell - about 10 - 20% of crack users turn out this way - uncurable. Something that horrible, IMO, must be illegal.

You are right, if Nicotine and Alcohol are legal - there is no reason why other lower-intensity stuff couldn't be as well.

There are cheap strip clubs, btw.

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Originally Posted by baseline bum

Have you heard of Tijuana, Mexico? They look the other way with regards to prostitution there, and the hookers are still able to pull the average citizen's weekly pay in about 30 minutes of work.

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How many Johns do you know that have had trouble picking up a hooker?

Not just Tijuana, dude, cops look the other way pretty much EVERYWHERE.

In Vegas, where it is open and legal, a guy handed my 13 year old son an "advertisement" card right on the street as we, as a family, walked in front of the Aladdin.

Leave it there, IMO.

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Originally Posted by 101A

This has been going on with my brother in law for 15 years now; he has spent 3 of those years in rehab - and never had to pay a dime for any of it. He did spend 3 in jail, not for drug possession, but for hot-checks and assault. Nothing has cured him. I understand he is an extreme case, but from what I can tell - about 10 - 20% of crack users turn out this way - uncurable. Something that horrible, IMO, must be illegal.

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Again, we don't disagree. And I understand he's an extreme case. But his crimes are the theft and violence, not his medical condition. I just don't believe you can criminalize addiction in and of itself. I do believe that people who produce deliberately harmful substances have something to answer for. If there are laws to be made, they should focus on the people profiting from the despair of addicts and their families.

That said, this battle cannot be won through law alone. Truth and education are the only way to drive down the demand for the substance and prevent new users. And medical advances toward helping addicts needs to be the focus of more research. Unfortunately, funding for prisons is more popular than medical research to help the inflicted.

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Originally Posted by 101A

There are cheap strip clubs, btw.

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There are also cheap restaurants.

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Originally Posted by 101A

How many Johns do you know that have had trouble picking up a hooker?

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It's not the availability. It's the game of roulette. Everyone speeds, but sometimes you get a ticket. That ticket shouldn't cost you a criminal conviction.

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Originally Posted by MaryAnnKilledGinger

Again, we don't disagree. And I understand he's an extreme case. But his crimes are the theft and violence, not his medical condition. I just don't believe you can criminalize addiction in and of itself. I do believe that people who produce deliberately harmful substances have something to answer for. If there are laws to be made, they should focus on the people profiting from the despair of addicts and their families.

That said, this battle cannot be won through law alone. Truth and education are the only way to drive down the demand for the substance and prevent new users. And medical advances toward helping addicts needs to be the focus of more research. Unfortunately, funding for prisons is more popular than medical research to help the inflicted.



There are also cheap restaurants.

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I don't disagree with much here; although anything THAT damaging to one's life ought not be legal. My b-i-l was 15 when he got hooked; not old enough to be tried as an adult for a crime, but addiction knows no age; he fucked up his life before it got started. A substance like that simply cannot be legalized, taxed, and have the stamp of approval from society.

The point on cheap strip clubs was refuting the point that prostitution pays well -

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Originally Posted by 101A

How many Johns do you know that have had trouble picking up a hooker?

Not just Tijuana, dude, cops look the other way pretty much EVERYWHERE.

In Vegas, where it is open and legal, a guy handed my 13 year old son an "advertisement" card right on the street as we, as a family, walked in front of the Aladdin.

Leave it there, IMO.

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If you legalize prostitution, you could regulate it and force weekly STD testing as so many places that decriminalize prostitution do with their sex workers. They could legally organize and demand better working conditions such as the use of condoms and protection from the police.

btw.

I think if we lowered the drinking age to 16, legalized Marijuana and some other party drugs - we'd have more $$$ left over to combat the real problems, both at the supply, and at the demand (through, as you suggest education and rehabilitation) side.

You're right. Jails don't work.

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Originally Posted by baseline bum

If you legalize prostitution, you could regulate it and force weekly STD testing as so many places that decriminalize prostitution do with their sex workers. They could legally organize and demand better working conditions such as the use of condoms and protection from the police.

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I've got enough libertarian sensibilities that this sounds O.K. to me (but I've got a bible-belt upbringing - and a father's sensibility that is struggling with it).

I think drugs are too easy to blame, and are too much of a scapegoat in today's society. I think this country goes too far with the AA idea that people are powerless in the face of them. I've had a few close friends get into major problems with cocaine, but it was their choice. They are the same people who found plenty of other ways to screw their lives up before cocaine too. I've also had many friends who used coke recreationally and were fine.

BTW, I'm sorry to hear about your brother in law.

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Originally Posted by 101A

I don't disagree with much here; although anything THAT damaging to one's life ought not be legal. My b-i-l was 15 when he got hooked; not old enough to be tried as an adult for a crime, but addiction knows no age; he fucked up his life before it got started. A substance like that simply cannot be legalized, taxed, and have the stamp of approval from society.

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I think there's a difference between legalizing it and not criminalizing addicts. My feelings on legalizing hardcore substances like crack are still murky. If it's going to be illegal, I just want the focus to be on pressuring producers and distributors rather than people with a medical condition. I don't think we disagree. I know you seem to think it would be easier if you could just lock your brother in law up for the obvious, but surely you can see how dangerous that is on the larger scale. It sounds like he's well on his way to a life inside anyway.

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Originally Posted by 101A

The point on cheap strip clubs was refuting the point that prostitution pays well -

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I took your point. Mine was that, like any legal industry, making a living in that profession varies on the skills and quality of the individual. That said, even girls at cheap strip clubs make a better living than their friends at dominoes pizza. Moreover, regulating the industry so that it isn't as lucrative for just anyone that engages in it will help make sure it isn't a rash decission for those who have better employment opportunities. Right now a bad prostitute can still make a better living than a good receptionist.

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Originally Posted by baseline bum

I think drugs are too easy to blame, and are too much of a scapegoat in today's society. I think this country goes too far with the AA idea that people are powerless in the face of them. I've had a few close friends get into major problems with cocaine, but it was their choice. They are the same people who found plenty of other ways to screw their lives up before cocaine too. I've also had many friends who used coke recreationally and were fine.

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Can you imagine what would happen to the economies of certain Asian and South American countries if American Corporate farms could legally grow coca and Marijuana?

THAT would be something to watch. Not changing my stance, but picturing vast acres of.....well, you get the picture.

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Originally Posted by MaryAnnKilledGinger

I think there's a difference between legalizing it and not criminalizing addicts. My feelings on legalizing hardcore substances like crack are still murky. If it's going to be illegal, I just want the focus to be on pressuring producers and distributors rather than people with a medical condition. I don't think we disagree. I know you seem to think it would be easier if you could just lock your brother in law up for the obvious, but surely you can see how dangerous that is on the larger scale. It sounds like he's well on his way to a life inside anyway.

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You cannot legislate morality; it has never and will never work in this country. The war on drugs is a huge waste of tax dollars, and does little but drive up the cost of cocaine.

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Originally Posted by baseline bum

You cannot legislate morality; it has never and will never work in this country. The war on drugs is a huge waste of tax dollars, and does little but drive up the cost of cocaine.

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I'm not talking about legislating morality. I am talking about legislation of controlled and harmful substances - something that our government does and it obligated on some level to do. The problem is that all recreational drugs tend to be labeled harmful with a broad brush instead of being considered individually on their own merits. Pot and crack are not the same, just like morphine and aspirin aren't the same.

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Originally Posted by MaryAnnKilledGinger

I think there's a difference between legalizing it and not criminalizing addicts. My feelings on legalizing hardcore substances like crack are still murky. If it's going to be illegal, I just want the focus to be on pressuring producers and distributors rather than people with a medical condition. I don't think we disagree. I know you seem to think it would be easier if you could just lock your brother in law up for the obvious, but surely you can see how dangerous that is on the larger scale. It sounds like he's well on his way to a life inside anyway.

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He'll never be inside again. Like I said, he's on dialysis now (has to be hooked up to a machine to clean his blood 4 hours, three times a week). They WON'T lock him up. He still steals, writes hot checks, etc....but doesn't go to jail. He was never locked up for possession, and he was caught many times, before his medical condition was an issue, with crack. Cops would just throw it out - and send him on his way.

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I took your point. Mine was that, like any legal industry, making a living in that profession varies on the skills and quality of the individual.

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O.K., now you've got me. As any man my age, I watched Gilligan's Island after school, and, well, that sentence was a little too much coming from you.

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Originally Posted by 101A

O.K., now you've got me. As any man my age, I watched Gilligan's Island after school, and, well, that sentence was a little too much coming from you.

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:rollin :toast

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Originally Posted by baseline bum

Are you telling me strip clubs are going to magically become cheap then?

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that would stimulate the economy :toast

Another positive effect of legalizing drugs would be that it would be harder for minors to obtain them. As a teenager, it was far easier for me to get weed, coke, or acid than it was to buy beer, as no dealer ever checked that you were 21. I don't think you're going to have a big epidemic of people 21 and up buying crack for their little brothers and sisters either.

I don't think this will solve problems on Craigslist or any other ad space for the simple reason that codewords will be used instead. If not escort services or massage therapy, it will be something else.

I find it interesting that when a law is passed or something like what is being proposed is done, there are those who think it is good, and those that think it is bad (it is bad). Those that that disagree with those that think it is bad start bringing up almost absurd senarios to try to prove their point that have very little ot nothing to do with what is going on.

So if they eliminate this part of craigslist, do they really think it will help and someone just won't start up something else? Why single out craiglist.

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Originally Posted by MaryAnnKilledGinger

I'm not talking about legislating morality. I am talking about legislation of controlled and harmful substances - something that our government does and it obligated on some level to do. The problem is that all recreational drugs tend to be labeled harmful with a broad brush instead of being considered individually on their own merits. Pot and crack are not the same, just like morphine and aspirin aren't the same.

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Cocaine can be a recreational drug. The government's doing a piss-poor job of regulating harmful substances when nicotine is readily available and rubbing alcohol is polluted with methyl so that it can kill people who drink it. Seriously, nicotine is one of the most toxic substances known to man. For anyone interested in mass suicide, drop a cigar in a cup of water and then share the cup with friends.

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Originally Posted by baseline bum

Cocaine can be a recreational drug. The government's doing a piss-poor job of regulating harmful substances when nicotine is readily available and rubbing alcohol is polluted with methyl so that it can kill people who drink it. Seriously, nicotine is one of the most toxic substances known to man. For anyone interested in mass suicide, drop a cigar in a cup of water and then share the cup with friends.

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Crack != Nicotine

Seriously.

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Originally Posted by baseline bum

Cocaine can be a recreational drug.

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Crack cocaine and regular cocaine are two completely different animals. I don't think you can be a recreational crack user. I have never known one and I can't think of anyone that does. You are either on the pipe or recovering from being on the pipe. Other forms of cocaine just don't compare.

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Originally Posted by baseline bum

The government's doing a piss-poor job of regulating harmful substances

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We do not disagree.

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The government's doing a piss-poor job of regulating harmful substances

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Name one thing the government does a good job doing?

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Originally Posted by 101A

Name one thing the government does a good job doing?

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Spending money on unneccessary things like unneccessary wars.

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Originally Posted by cherylsteele

Spending money on unneccessary things like unneccessary wars.

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That's one.

Got any others?

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Originally Posted by MaryAnnKilledGinger

Crack cocaine and regular cocaine are two completely different animals. I don't think you can be a recreational crack user. I have never known one and I can't think of anyone that does. You are either on the pipe or recovering from being on the pipe. Other forms of cocaine just don't compare.

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You can't have one without the other. Crack is insanely easy to make from cocaine.

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Originally Posted by baseline bum

You can't have one without the other. Crack is insanely easy to make from cocaine.

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Point taken. But just because a needle is difficult to thread doesn't mean you stop sewing. Law is all about definition and distinction.

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Originally Posted by MaryAnnKilledGinger

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/07/te...gslist.html?hp

In order to prove that the war on drugs has taught them nothing, 40 states have now made it nearly impossible for the adult industry to advertise on Craigslist. The pressure from the government has made sure that adult-related content is charged an additional fee to advertise to cover the extra costs associated by the extra policing of content.

War. Economy in a free-fall. Education in tatters. But escorts will now have to find a new place to advertise.

Do these people not understand that it's called the oldest profession for a reason?

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wow -- with this philosophy and others you have stated on this thread - America would acutally really be like the Wilde quote in your sig. HEre is what it boils down to - and this has been stated: Morals. There are those who have no morals -- who have no respect for the family or marraige and those that do. It is a moral argument.

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Originally Posted by implacable44

wow -- with this philosophy and others you have stated on this thread - America would acutally really be like the Wilde quote in your sig. HEre is what it boils down to - and this has been stated: Morals. There are those who have no morals -- who have no respect for the family or marraige and those that do. It is a moral argument.

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My sig really bothers you. Did The Picture of Dorian Gray give you nightmares as a child or something?

Morals are an abstract idea.

One might argue that people fighting for the right to marry have more respect for it than those who want to treat it like a country club membership.

I have never seen so many self righteous people who can walk on water in the same topic,incredible.

I personally don't see anything wrong with prostitution...I think it should be legal. When the government makes something legal they have all the power to regulate everything that goes on in it. STD testing would be one of the first things the government would implement. Not to mention like any industry...quality would take over.

I can only think of the girls in the Bunny Ranch. Clean and always at least half way decent looking. There's no crack heads selling their bodies for a hit...that's what happens when you can't control the industry. The same goes for the porn industry..there's no gargoyles (other than the men) working in the porn industry. They are all fantastic looking women for the most part..not that I would ever sleep with a porn star out of my own insecurities.

I think the issue of morality is a stupid one. It's definitely a sliding scale for me...in the sense that how much morality do you want...I mean really want. Do conservatives just want morality when it comes to sex...or do they want morality when it comes to everything? And I do mean everything...morality like spending more money on developing countries and populations that are decimated by poverty, starvation, and malnutrition...is that also not morality? Or is it only morality when you control sex/marriage/love between two consenting adults?

I understand the need for personal liberty, and understand the harm principle's application. But where do we draw the line? If 21 is an arbitrary line for a drinking age, then why not 18. Person A: I think 18 would be better. Then, what about 16? A: Well 16 is still reasonable - many countries show that 16 works. Okay, then 14, 12, 10, 8, etc.... All are arbitrary points.

Do we test someone based on their physiological development? Do we test their reasoning capacity? Do we award driver's licenses to some at age 10 (who are perhaps taller, more co-ordinated and have better reasoning skills than their peers)?

I would say yes if there was some sort of LaPlace's-demon-level-intellect that could sort out all of the reasonable and related criteria, and make reasonable boundaries that were applicable to the individual and not simply a broad slicing of societal demographics.

I guess that, in principle, I see the merit of Prostitution being legal - mainly as a means to protect the girls from unscrupulous practices, violent pimps, and ungodly STD levels.

I just do not know how this mindset leads to any other end but anarchy. And from anarchy will likely rise a corporate oligarchy or a genuine tyranny of the majority. Sadly, there is no precedence for successful egalitarian governments on either side - total libertarian (egalitarian negative rights) or communism (egalitarian positive rights).