Religion: Yes? No? Why?

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Originally Posted by baseline bum

Everything you asked is addressed in my post above.

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No it is not.

How did something come from nothing?

How did life come from non-life?

You may not know the answer, but you believe that science will ultimately tell us that it was natural cause.

I have never had a problem with having vantage points of both of a spiritual and a rational nature. It has never been a conflict to me. I approach religion and faith in one context with an entirely different view through which I view mathematics, for example. I have never asked religion to be science, and I have never asked science to be religion. They are two entirely different things. I do not read a work of literature within the guidelines of the rules of geometry; moreover, I do not view the meaning of life within the confines of rigid scientific thought.

It just has never seemed like a conflict to me because I do not try to make one into another. It is why I have no problem with saying that things in the Bible are not scientifically accurate and that in no way shatters my faith because the Bible is not a science book. It is a spiritual book and I believe the spiritual truths within it. In the same way, I do not expect my Calculus book to teach me about a meaning in life above and beyond myself.

I also do not believe that religious people have a monopoly on the truth; that they alone have moral standing; or that anyone has the right answers. I am most suspicious of anyone who claims to have it all figured it out.

I also have faith in Christ, sometimes because of but quite often despite the behavior and words of those who act and speak in His name.

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Originally Posted by baseline bum

This is ridiculous when believers try to bring atheists down to their level. Atheism isn't faith at all; it's rationalism. I hate when believers go to this kind of massively flawed logic that it's on the atheist to prove god's non-existence. You don't prove something is true by lack of counter-example, but theists are perfectly happy justifying their god by it. Most atheists do not have faith. Most atheists think god is unlikely as a rationalist will say about any other hypothesis supported by no evidence. The idea that my theory is correct because your contradictory theory is incomplete is nonsense.

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That's not what he said.

He said your theory is JUST as incomplete as his.

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Originally Posted by I Love Me Some Me

No it is not.

How did something come from nothing?

How did life come from non-life?

You may not know the answer, but you believe that science will ultimately tell us that it was natural cause.

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I do think science will come up with a better explanation, since it actually searches for one instead of saying it already knows the answer and it cannot change.

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Originally Posted by baseline bum

I do think science will come up with a better explanation, since it actually searches for one instead of saying it already knows the answer and it cannot change.

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Think = believe. Congratulations, you do have beliefs.


By the way, I'd argue that I am more open minded than you are on the science thing.

I can follow science and let the evidence lead me to ANY conclusion. I've said it's possible that life comes from non-life, etc...and I'm willing to accept every possible explanation (including one that eliminates a creator).

You have already eliminated one possible answer from consideration.

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Originally Posted by I Love Me Some Me

Think = believe. Congratulations, you do have beliefs.


By the way, I'd argue that I am more open minded than you are on the science thing.

I can follow science and let the evidence lead me to ANY conclusion. I've said it's possible that life comes from non-life, etc...and I'm willing to accept every possible explanation (including one that eliminates a creator).

You have already eliminated one possible answer from consideration.

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The scientific method is an ever changing process uses extreme skepticism with creating and updating theory to match physical evidence. To put it at the same level as belief in an unchanging book is crazy.

I don’t like to get into these “discussions” but oh well, why not join in the fun right?
Growing up I had two extremes. For the first part of my life my father was a drug dealer and a pretty tough dude. We had guns, drugs and money all over the place in my house. When I was about 13 he decided to get his stuff together (my mom said she was taking off with me and my bro if not) and entered a church rehab program. I am 28 now (days from 29 in case you want to get me a gift) and he has been involved in the church ever since. To the point of opening his own and becoming a Pastor.
I do not consider myself “Christian” since I do not actively go to church and don’t believe that I behave like a true Christian but I do defend it a lot because of the change that I have seen my father go through. Who am I to say that he is wrong or right? All I know is that he cleaned himself up and in the process he has helped and continues to help people overcome their addictions and problems.
I don’t understand why atheist or non-believers feel the need to call Christians narrow minded or shallow for believing a certain way but then in turn call them stupid for not believing the way they do. Yes I know there are “bible thumpers” that shove their beliefs in your face but there are also non-believers that shove theirs beliefs too. Who cares what you believe as long as it makes you content? These people who say another group is stupid for believing the way they do to make themselves feel better are the real idiots.

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Originally Posted by lakaluva

The love for his wife and children changed your dads life.:toast

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Either way, my point was that he made a decision. The church was the route he decided to take in order to make that change.
It upsets me when people choose to slam Christians just because they don't believe the same way. My dad is one of the smartest men I know. Why hate on someone who believes what they want to? My dad believes that your life should be an open book and that people should see Christ in you without you shoving it down your throat. He helps people with their addictions as well as his community.
I may not be the church going boyscout but why slam people that are?

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Originally Posted by I Love Me Some Me

I am a Christian. I was born and raised in a pretty strict environment, and some pretty strict teachings. It was always "God said it, I believe it, that settles it" type of learning, with never any meat and potatoes behind it. Now, I certainly believe in the omnipotence of God, and if he says something, I should believe it. But, I also believe that a God who we believe to have intricately designed this world doesn't just say things because He's God, and He has the power to say and do whatever he wants. He says and does things because there are logistical, rational reasons behind them. As I've grown older, my hunger for knowledge has led me to search for those rational reasons. I've had luck finding some, and I am still struggling for others. I will never know all of His reasons, but I know that He has them, and I know they can be found (science has done as much).

People often reject Christianity, or religion in general, because of certain problems. But really, there is no neutral place to position yourself in philosophical space. There's nowhere you can turn in which you believe absolutely nothing and therefore don't take on some burden of proof about the position you hold. Everyone has to believe something. Even what appears to be a rejection of all beliefs is a belief. Everyone holds something to be true. Maybe your truth is that nothing else is true, but that is something you believe. Even agnostics and atheists have faith. Atheists believe there is no god (while not being able to prove as much) and agnostics believe that it is not possible to know things about God (while not being able to prove as much).

If you reject religion or Christianity, there is something else that you end up asserting by default. And if you're rejecting religion or Christianity because of it's problems (and it does have problems), then you are only embracing a different set of problems. Agnostics and atheists, especially, are never really forced to face the problems of what they believe, but those problems exist and if you want to challenge Christians (or other faiths) on their unknowns, then you should be willing to accept the challenge to answer your unknowns.

It's not a liability of a particular belief system to have unanswered questions. They all do. Christianity has unanswered questions (not as many as people think), and there are some that I struggle with. Not because of my lack of faith, but because of my aforementioned interest in knowledge and reason. Every world view has it's problems and unanswered questions.

But as I've searched for knowledge, the evidence has led me to believe even more in a single God, who created us and our universe with intricate design and care. It seems to me to be the more reasonable and rational explanation. If you take God out of the equation, then you are saying that everything comes from nothing, life comes from non-life, order comes from chaos, and natural law comes from randomness. And I'm not offering this as an argument for God's existence. I'm trying to put things in perspective when it comes to our belief systems. Some of the things you believe as an atheist or agnostic are just as extreme (if not more extreme) than the problems you think you're avoiding by rejecting the existence of God.

Now, it may be that everything came from nothing. It may be that life came from non-life. It may be that order came from chaos, and natural law came from randomness. But man...you sure do have to have a hell of a lot of faith to believe that kind of thing. It seems to be much more reasonable, given the evidence, that there is a God who is responsible for these things.

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Originally Posted by 101A

Why Christianity? Well, obviously where I was raised, and who I hang with, and who raised me are the primary driving factors for that. But beyond that, I experience affirmations of my choice in subtle ways all the time. Most of you Atheists and Agnostics won't believe them, or will laugh at what I consider them but that's fine - they are for me. Also, for those who claim "All Religions are the Same" - you obviously have not actually studied the various religions and read their books. The message of Jesus Christ in the New Testament is far different from any of the other codes of behavior prescribed by the various religious books.

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Well stated. Thanks for posting. :)

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Originally Posted by baseline bum

The scientific method is an ever changing process uses extreme skepticism with creating and updating theory to match physical evidence. To put it at the same level as belief in an unchanging book is crazy.

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When did I say science was the same as the Bible (which is what I assume you are referring to when you say "belief in an unchanging book)?

My last statement was that my faith allows me to be more open minded about the direction science takes us than atheism does. I can openly consider all possible options...atheists cannot. By definition, they are starting their research by eliminating a possible conclusion. I, on the other hand, have not eliminated any possible conclusion.


(BTW-perhaps the book hasn't changed because it's accurate.)

I understand that religion is a topic of discussion but, IMO, when it comes to faith you simply have it or you don't. Nothing anybody can ever post in here could change my faith. But I do enjoy reading the many views.
Carry on.

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Originally Posted by I Love Me Some Me

(BTW-perhaps the book hasn't changed because it's accurate.)

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The book hasn't changed because it's accurate? :lmao

So we should put people to death for working on Saturday or for disobeying their parents?

i'm catholic. i believe God is the intangible, mystical force that binds us all and is the solid foundation for the universe. i think its incredible that the universe is so stable and humans have survived extinction for so long, and how life came about from an amazingly complex chemical reaction, which has been able to sustain itself for so long. not without outside help, of course. why does water not freeze at a certain depth?

in my opinion, God established the sequence of thought (creation) and constructed our Cartesian Theaters, which allow us to think in our own terms and create our own ideas - like demigods.

i think God was never meant to be the now accepted judeo-christian God (big guy in the sky with the white beard), but that was most likely due to a severe misinterpretation of a book of intellectual writings attempting to describe the concept of God in a metaphorical sense. the Bible is pure genius, but only if you look behind the ink and really reflect on it besides just regurgitating metaphors. i dont think God sits on his mighty throne-cloud and instigates random miracles. we are God's throne, and God's miracles are shown through the goodwill and kind acts by the greatest miracle of all -- free will.

that said, i think 95% of athiests are so out of spite. most athiests cite their atheism due to not believing the misinterpreted metaphors of Christian doctrine. its as if the athiests are sucked into the same ignorance that many Christians are. there are a million different religions and interpretations out there, and if none of them fit, make one up.

The Grand Inquisitor is the shit. Dostoevsky nailed that chapter.

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Originally Posted by lakaluva

Man is the greatest thing in the universe. NOTHING IS GREATER THAN MAN. The idea that a man will fall to his knees and worship something that he cant prove exsists is perfect evidence that man has lost his mind... literally!!!

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if ur prop 8 buddies read this, they'd blow a gasket

atheists' dogma is awfully religious

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Originally Posted by Viva Las Espuelas

atheists' dogma is awfully religious

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Can you please ever make a post on this forum that can be taken as anything other than knee-jerk?

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Originally Posted by baseline bum

Can you please ever make a post on this forum that can be taken as anything other than knee-jerk?

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quality, not quantity.

I'm a Christian primarily because of my upbringing, but I have remained a Christian through experience and reflection. I am a naturally skeptical person and I very often find myself straying from my faith, only to be pulled back in by events in my life or revelations that, for me, reaffirm my belief in a Higher Power. I have been blessed in my life well beyond anything I have truly earned on my own. Whether I would come to attribute any of this to a Higher Power if I had been raised in a non-Christian home, I don't know. But I'm thankful for my upbringing.

I also believe that the greatest threat to Christianity is its followers, who wear the badge of Christianity while failing to be an example of Jesus Christ. I place myself into that group, because I know I have enormous shortcomings as a Christian. But it discourages me to see Christians devoted to causes rooted in hate, rather than love.

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Originally Posted by Viva Las Espuelas

quality, not quantity.

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I concur.

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Originally Posted by MaryAnnKilledGinger

1. What do you believe?

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I don't believe there is a god. And I think religion is a social construct created by humans used as a tool in order to keep certain people in check. It worked a lot better when we didn't have the knowledge that we have today. And I think as we progress scientifically as a civilization, it's power will dwindle even more. I think as a civilization, we have come a long way discovering and scientifically explaining very, very complex systems. There's still a whole lot more to figure out, and some of the answers can only be built on top of more answers as we find them. I understand that advancing the sciences is a very long process. Our civilization might never finish it. But that doesn't bother me in the least. I'm happy that everyone, including you and me, through our own discoveries, can help.

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Originally Posted by MaryAnnKilledGinger

2. Why do you believe it?

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I grew up in a christian house. Parents took me to church every Sunday, and I had baptism, first communion and confirmation. As part of the process, I attended cathecism classes and learned what I needed to learn about the Bible. I always had the personal trait of being somewhat rebellious and like to question authority. At some point my own rational thinking and skepticism grew big enough to simply view things from outside religion, and try to make sense of them without assigning them to the supernatural. As years went by, and science kept on giving rational explanations to phenomena that was previously only attributable to the supernatural, that opinion got reinforced.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

...science kept on giving rational explanations to phenomena that was previously only attributable to the supernatural, that opinion got reinforced.

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Just curious...what, exactly?

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Originally Posted by baseline bum

The book hasn't changed because it's accurate? :lmao

So we should put people to death for working on Saturday or for disobeying their parents?

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OT law v. NT covenant...another time, another thread. Besides, that was a flippant half-joke.


Feel free to address the meat of the post if you're so inclined:

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Originally Posted by me

My last statement was that my faith allows me to be more open minded about the direction science takes us than atheism does. I can openly consider all possible options...atheists cannot. By definition, they are starting their research by eliminating a possible conclusion. I, on the other hand, have not eliminated any possible conclusion.

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This is an ooooold post when I first joined ST. The overall message still holds. My writing style was more or less crap at the time I wrote this because its actually older than when I posted it here at ST.

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Originally Posted by DarkReign

Posted many moons ago on another forum

I just happened upon this thread, so bear with me...

First off, I am agnostic (if this is an acceptable label for those who enjoy them).

All forms of mass religion are existential beliefs looking to someone/something else for answers/questions/guidance/etc.

It is my opinion that God is not outward, but very much inward.

I dont have the answers for everything (not even a damn shade close), and I would bet nor does any other human.

But, you know that feeling you get when you open that door for a complete stranger just as a simple gesture of good will? Or some form of the cliché "walking an old lady across the street"? Or for giving a little money to the “down on his luck” family member who just lost their job? Or the admiration you see in your child’s eyes and the aspiration to be an example worthy of his praise?

That is the power that binds. That is as close to a God as I will ever need. I dont believe in Christianity, Islam, Hindu, etc. Those are all human machinations created in a veiled attempt to capitulate the masses into subservience and conformity. Really, take a look at the timeline when organized religion came around. Look at the political landscape and the incessant war being waged by fellow countrymen.

It was chaos. The power-brokers (usually warlords and land owners) were in a unique position to see opportunity. Patriotism comes in a distant second to faith. Based upon the rites of the pagans religion before them (ever wonder why Christmas is in December? It is a well known fact that Jesus was never born anywhere near that date, but the pagans already had a major holiday in that moon phase. In a highly effective recruiting tactic, Jesus was suddenly born in that same timeframe. Hmmm...), religion sprung from the deep down longing of the human spirit to believe in something greater than itself.

Obviously, there are exceptions to every rule. People claim they have no belief and I whole-heartedly believe them.

But, what I wont buy is that they feel no innate connection to their fellow man, and even some cases, a much stronger feeling to the Earth and animals.

Let the religious decide amongst themselves whose God is right or wrong.

I walk confidently thru my days knowing as a life-form, I share a bond with all forms of life that is stronger than any faith based, Bible-thumping nitwit could ever claim.

We are all born with a "feeling". A closeness that was/is separate from the rest of the animals because we seen ourselves as superior in some light. In ways, we are. But I will not lose my respect for the life that was, the life that is, and the life that will be.

We all control our own destinies, but in some small way we share our destiny. We arent some single-source creation of some higher being. We are the product of a system that extends well beyond some man-made heaven and hell.

I have always felt myself separate from the ideologies of those around me my whole life. I was never a classic-religious, "member of the flock", sheep looking for my sheppard skyward. Nor was I a nihilist objecting to any sort of common fabric that binds.

Then, after 15 years of close contemplation, I read a book called Hyperspace. A scientific study explaining the possibilities and impact of string theory. In that book, the authors' attempt to create an analogy that explains what a 4th dimensional being would look like to us ("us" being 3 dimensional beings). It provoked a stunning revelation for me.

The authors' basically said, and I completely paraphrase and will speak in the authors' voice for clarity:

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"To understand what it is to even try and wrap the human brain around the appearance or even existence of a 4th dimensional being is impossible. To give humans a vague idea, picture a race of beings existing in 2 dimensions for a moment. Thats right, youre a stick figure on a sheet of paper, with stick buildings and other stick people who inhabit this sheet of paper. You have a society, religion, and economy. Now, imagine a human entering your world. How does a 3-D being enter a 2-D world, you ask? Easy, stick his finger thru the sheet of paper. The effect could be 2 fold. One, you destroy their world creating a rift in the fabric of their existence. Or two (and this is the accepted idea), you pass thru only revealing to those 2-D stick-people the portion of your physical body that sits on their plane of existence (ie the sheet of paper). You would only be perceived as a floating, shape-changing blob of very odd coloration and texture (the cross section of a human finger).

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Now, with that analogy in mind and with the empathy you hold for those poor 2-D stick-people, try and imagine what a 4-D being would look like to us. The scientific response to any such hypothesis would of utter disregard. The cold, hard truth is no matter your imagination, no matter your dreams or how smart you are, it is impossible to have any concept of what said being would “look” like.

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I could go on and on about what all of this meant to me and how profound the universe became with one chapter, but it would be pointless.

I have come to conclusion that there are 4 kinds of people (I hate labels, but they seem to give better perspective for those that need them):

a) Those that think they have it all figured out and seek no more introspection on the subject. They accept only the “faithful” and vilify the “unfaithful” as heathens. Their existential lives dedicated to the furthering of their agenda.(religious zealots)

b) Those that admit their shortcomings in the eyes of a societal God and seek endless introspection as to why. Their existential lives are spent in a small or large capacity to the furthering of their religious beliefs/affiliation. (religious people in general)

c) Those that adhere to no consensus standard but admit to the same feeling the religious people experience but do not hold it to any specific idols, and seek introspection on the basis of personal well-being and understanding of oneself. Their existential lives are spent in solitary refinement and only share their ideals when provoked. (agnostic or whatever label is placed upon them by those who don’t understand)

d) Those that have no care for the mysteries of life that science cannot explain and spend very little time concerned with introspection on the dynamic human/nature/life relationship. Their existential lives will either never develop or be hastened when confronted with death. (atheists)

By no means does one or the other make this person “bad” or criminally lenient. It just is. Those factors are completely dependant upon individual decisions.

Maybe you don’t fall into a category. I say good for you! Be different. Be harmonious and thoughtful. Experience this gift to its fullest and enjoy the time spent with the world and its beauty.

I am as close to “God” now than I have ever been. I find fulfillment not from a book or a building, I find it in life. I hope you do too.

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