Re: Religion: Yes? No? Why?
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Originally Posted by
baseline bum
This statement is a gross oversimplification. My disillusionment with religious institutes comes from spite at organized power grabs by people looking to push their dogma on everyone.
it sounds like youre more of a nihilist. not all believers use religion as a weapon and to make money. the assholes do, and i think all people should speak out against them. thats where the word antichrist is born from - people who claim to be prophets and try to use religion in a profitable way. i cringe when i see infomercials trying to sell crosses. it really pisses me off. ive also had people tell me before that i was going to hell if i didnt convert to their beliefs :rolleyes. i just ignore them and move on. im not going to change my own opinion about a higher power if everyone else is pissing on the concept.
Re: Religion: Yes? No? Why?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
baseline bum
This statement is a gross oversimplification. My disillusionment with religious institutes comes from spite at organized power grabs by people looking to push their dogma on everyone. If you consider it small-minded and hateful to have extreme quarrels with the religious right pushing their religion in kids' science classes, a place where people are supposed to learn skepticism and formation of theories based on hard evidence and not faith or feelings, then there's really nothing I can say to you. If you think I'm arrogant because I say the church is full of it when they profess to know the answers to all of the big questions, so be it. But religion has an incredibly checkered history, and it's not doing too well in the present when you have people like Bush saying he invaded Iraq because god told him to do it and you have muslim extremists killing so they can be sent to a martyr's paradise not unlike the one promised to every faithful Christian by the bible. Religion is big business, and preys on people's greatest hopes and fears to make money. There's Oral Roberts threatening to kill himself if his flock didn't donate $8 million. There's L Ron Hubbard writing a book to get tax-exempt status for his blackmail of Hollywood actors who reveal their biggest skeletons to his church at their weakest moments. There's that scumbag Hagee here who lives like a Persian king on the money he raises from the suckers who phone him in. Jim Bakker. Ted Haggard. The Taliban. George Bush. Osama Bin Laden. This is the face of religion. Religion is the abstraction of the idea of "believe me because I say so".
My atheism comes from the lack of evidence to support the existence of a god. Logic dictates that a valid argument can still be correctly used to reach any conclusion if it is based on a false premise. Technically, a valid argument can establish an arbitrary conclusion if an assumption going in is unsound. Hence, muslim extremists can easily argue that their suicide bombings are the most honorable actions they could ever do. Christians can convince themselves it is honorable to deny civil rights to gays because the book says they're sinners. Back on point, I cannot accept the idea of a supernatural god on the idea that physical evidence isn't needed for something entirely supernatural. It makes no sense to believe something that cannot be reasonably shown to be true, as this throws knowledge into chaos.
Well said...I'm pretty much the same way. But on the other hand...I fully understand why some people are religious. There are passages in every scripture that do speak to some innermost feelings of people. But I put them on the same level as hearing a really good song with really strong lyrics. To me the same feelings I would feel reading a passage in Psalms is the same feeling I get hearing Don't Let Me Down by The Beatles.
P.S. You forgot to include Meir Kahane in your list of religious nuts.
Re: Religion: Yes? No? Why?
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Originally Posted by
I. Hustle
No I am proposing that as long as those things occur that there will always be people that believe in some type of celestial being. I am not saying that science won't come up with ideas as to why these things happen I am just saying that people are always going to be in awe of certain events and attribute them to a higher power.
As long as we have those people, religion will not go away and that is a fact.
Well, I do agree that certain people are way too attached to their religious beliefs. I also think it helps some of that people in a good way. Psychology has taken a portion of that clientèle away. And I'm sure as generations go by, and we become more knowledgeable in social behavior, we'll see the power of religion as a social tool dwindle. Obviously, this is just my opinion.
Re: Religion: Yes? No? Why?
God, somewhat, Religion, no.
I don't like being told how to believe or who to believe in.
Re: Religion: Yes? No? Why?
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Originally Posted by
DarrinS
Maybe if you get a large pile of steel, alloys, plastic, and rubber it will spontaneously form itself into an automobile.
This is what you'd have to believe if you think pools of carbon, water, etc. can spontaneously form a human being.
Yet God can spontaneously create himself? A being with the power to know all, do all, and yet he cares about us intricately?
Re: Religion: Yes? No? Why?
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Originally Posted by
DarrinS
You'd also have to believe that you're quite lucky that you remember to breathe and keep your heart beating when you're asleep. It's also quite amazing luck that our cells know how to divide, pass on DNA, etc. What dumb luck, huh?
What are the odds that I would wake up this morning, go get a sip of orange juice, yawn, get dressed, and drive to work in exactly 17 minutes and 12 seconds? Probably astronomical. You'll need a better argument than 'odds'.
Re: Religion: Yes? No? Why?
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Originally Posted by
I Love Me Some Me
People often reject Christianity, or religion in general, because of certain problems. But really, there is no neutral place to position yourself in philosophical space. There's nowhere you can turn in which you believe absolutely nothing and therefore don't take on some burden of proof about the position you hold. Everyone has to believe something. Even what appears to be a rejection of all beliefs is a belief. Everyone holds something to be true. Maybe your truth is that nothing else is true, but that is something you believe. Even agnostics and atheists have faith. Atheists believe there is no god (while not being able to prove as much) and agnostics believe that it is not possible to know things about God (while not being able to prove as much).
There are different meanings to the word 'belief'. I 'believe' there is no God, like I 'believe' that gravity will continue to work tomorrow. Some beliefs are based on fact, some are based on experience, and some on neither.
Re: Religion: Yes? No? Why?
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Originally Posted by
ElNono
Your opinion is certainly welcome, and I'm not going to argue with you about it, but I think it's interesting what you posted above, because Earth didn't look anything like it looks like today many million years ago, before there was life in it.
Your statement does not contradict mine, that there is a plan and a Planner.
Re: Religion: Yes? No? Why?
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Originally Posted by
LnGrrrR
There are different meanings to the word 'belief'. I 'believe' there is no God, like I 'believe' that gravity will continue to work tomorrow. Some beliefs are based on fact, some are based on experience, and some on neither.
I would say that if it is based on fact, it is no longer a belief but rather is now knowledge.
If it is not based on proven fact, it is a belief.
i.e. -
I know that gravity will continue to work...I believe the earth was created by natual causes.
Re: Religion: Yes? No? Why?
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Originally Posted by
I Love Me Some Me
I would say that if it is based on fact, it is no longer a belief but rather is now knowledge.
If it is not based on proven fact, it is a belief.
i.e. -
I know that gravity will continue to work...I believe the earth was created by natual causes.
Technically, it's the THEORY of gravity.
You could say it is a FACT that gravity exists, but you do not know for sure that gravity will continue to work as it does tomorrow. You believe it will, based on the fact that it has continued to exist for quite a long time.
Beliefs can be based on facts, as well. For instance, before the election, I BELIEVED Obama would win, due to the results of certain polls, which are FACTS.
Re: Religion: Yes? No? Why?
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Originally Posted by
LnGrrrR
Technically, it's the THEORY of gravity.
You could say it is a FACT that gravity exists, but you do not know for sure that gravity will continue to work as it does tomorrow. You believe it will, based on the fact that it has continued to exist for quite a long time.
Beliefs can be based on facts, as well. For instance, before the election, I BELIEVED Obama would win, due to the results of certain polls, which are FACTS.
Yes, but you did not KNOW that Obama would win. Your belief was based on good evidence, but you did not have knowledge that he was going to win. The polls were evidence that led us to believe he would win, but they did not provide us with the knowledge that he had won before the election even took place.
:lol
this is kinda funny. :rollin
Re: Religion: Yes? No? Why?
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Originally Posted by
The Reckoning
it sounds like youre more of a nihilist.
I would never consider myself a nihilist. As I know it, a nihilist thinks there is no order to the world, no sense of justice, and no reason that anyone would be born with one. Nihilism seems more consistent with the religious side that claims altruism is a learned behavior rather than something naturally selected.
Re: Religion: Yes? No? Why?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LnGrrrR
Yet God can spontaneously create himself? A being with the power to know all, do all, and yet he cares about us intricately?
It sound like you're making Dawkins' argument, that a god created from no order is like jumping a sheer cliff on the side of a mountain in one bound as opposed to any intelligent life being a slow progression like a hike up the side of the mountain.
Re: Religion: Yes? No? Why?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
I Love Me Some Me
Yes, but you did not KNOW that Obama would win. Your belief was based on good evidence, but you did not have knowledge that he was going to win. The polls were evidence that led us to believe he would win, but they did not provide us with the knowledge that he had won before the election even took place.
:lol
this is kinda funny. :rollin
And my lack of evidence for any god explains my lack of belief for any god. While there obviously IS some evidence (Bible, testimony), it does not pass the 'sniff' test for me. It does for others obviously. :)
Re: Religion: Yes? No? Why?
Why does everyone assume that God, or in the case of an agnostic-maybe god, has to be perfect.
I think our god could be a fuck-up. Maybe the big bang was was an Oh Shit moment. Maybe the reason the world is pretty screwed up-babies born with cancer and stuff like that is because our god just did not get it right. As gods-in-training are we getting a terrible education or, having seen how badly god messed up are we like an alcoholics teetotaler son, going to be determined to get it right when its our turn?
Oh well, you see a pretty sunset and you think, "he/she does get some things right-maybe there's some hope for 'em."
Now if he/she could just get us an athletic big.
Re: Religion: Yes? No? Why?
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Originally Posted by
smeagol
Your statement does not contradict mine, that there is a plan and a Planner.
Correct. I'm also not against the idea that there's a plan or a planner. Certainly a possibility. Except that I'm against the idea that whoever that planner or planners might be are a supernatural entity.
