Military Veterans Push for Repeal of 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell'

I didn't imply that they were against repealing the ban, but that their concerns, like Romad talking about the mindset of 17-22 year olds, were of a protective nature.

I'm clearly in agreement on a need to repeal the policy, but being concerned for human lives in an isolated culture/situation isn't something that represents a disrespect for military persons and they seem to believe that as well.

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Originally Posted by Spur-Addict

To choose what's right for these people shouldn't be your place, especially when others receive and are able to obtain what they desire. They are accustomed to persecution and incidences of extreme violence, the more commonplace their lifestyle is accepted, the more these incidents will decrease.

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what?

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Originally Posted by DarkReign

I never said it was right or that it should stay the same. But take lakaluva for example. Bullshit or not, guy said him and his boys were going to have some "friendly fire" victims (or some such) in the Prop 8 thread.

Reality is far stranger than fiction.

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Well, maybe they should implement it in the Air Force first. We're more laidback. :D

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Originally Posted by romad_20

I agree. I just think it will be quite the culture shock to the system and the number of problems will be high at first.

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Some people in the military are already suspected to be gay, and even if they aren't, it is known by this policy that they must keep it concealed. So just because some gays aren't open about it, doesn't mean they aren't suspected to be. Gays in the military isn't a shock because it already exists.


This already exists, and the fact that law makes it a hush issue, it makes some of those who persecute feel ok about it because gays are silenced already. Whether or not the problems may be high at first is a good concern to have, but in issues such as these, it isn't a suprise, and it's something that has to be worked on to get through. Nothing will be magic over night.

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Originally Posted by clambake

what?

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What do you not understand?

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Originally Posted by Spur-Addict

So basicaly you want to protect people who will be discriminated against, or potentially harmed for being gay, that's noble of you. But what over rules your desire for protection is their desire for acknowledgement.

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There is nothing "noble" about my opinon, but thanks. I am stating the obvious. Now it just depends on the reality vs instinct.

Instinct told me Prop would fail miserably in California.

Reality was completely different.

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To choose what's right for these people shouldn't be your place, especially when others receive and are able to obtain what they desire. They are accustomed to persecution and incidences of extreme violence, the more commonplace their lifestyle is accepted, the more these incidents will decrease.

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I choose nothing for anyone. I am not military, nor have I ever wanted to be or desire to be.

I simply state what I believe to be true. In a combat situation, liberties are taken. The term "fragging" comes to mind during the Vietnam war. You may be right and you may be wrong, same goes for me.

Personally, what the military does in this situation is the military's perogative. I have no interest in it, really. I am not a serviceman. But pointing out the reality of homophobes and their beliefs is not "choosing" for them, nor is it "noble". Its a statement of fact.

Military courts may have more teeth than a civilian court, but a battefield makes for an awful crime scene.

Finally, its up to the brass to figure it out. I dont pretend to know anything about our country's servicemen beyond the 4-5 I know and my impressions. Beyond that, its conjecture.

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Originally Posted by Spurminator

We don't shelter minority soldiers from racism or female soldiers from sexism. Those issues are dealt with whenever it's necessary. I don't think purging anti-gay sentiment within the Military is a prerequisite to allowing gays to serve openly.

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We also don't force men and women to use the same shower facilities and bedroom accommodations.

If we are to allow gays to openly serve, we may as well have men and women using the same open shower facilities and barracks.

This is the root of the problem. Sexual harassment and violence can be dealt with the same way it already is.

Just like some women would be abhorred by sharing a shower facility with men, some men are abhorred for a man who may be turned on by him, to see him naked.

This is the clearest problem. Not the only one. I get tired of re-arguing these same arguments over and over. Why cannot the advocates understand this concern?

When public nudity becomes commonly accepted in the USA, then we can have soldiers sharing such facilities.

Yeah that's more along the lines of what I figured you were getting at when I asked "Like what?" Gays completely fuck up our bathroom-by-gender system!

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Originally Posted by Spur-Addict

Some people in the military are already suspected to be gay, and even if they aren't, it is known by this policy that they must keep it concealed. So just because some gays aren't open about it, doesn't mean they aren't suspected to be. Gays in the military isn't a shock because it already exists.

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It would be quite the shock. There was only one person that was suspected of being gay in my squadron while I was in. This guy was persecuted by his peers and the leadership looked away. The people who were supposed to be looking out for his treatment and well being did nothing. No one, not even the 1st Sgt who usually helped everyone in trouble, even drug trouble. He ended up running off awol for weeks. Rumors were rampant while he was awol. His reputation was ruined and he was quickly charged under the UCMJ and discharged when he was found. Served time at Levenworth. Life ruined.

If you think that wouldn't happen to more people if the policy was changed over night you're kidding yourself. If someone with enough pull wants to give you a screwjob it will happen. Combine that with the overwhelming machismo attitude of the military and you've got yourself a powder keg. It would be a bigger shock than you think, my friend.

I think the change should come with careful planning and education starting in boot camp. The entire culture and thinking on the subject would have to shift.

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

We also don't force men and women to use the same shower facilities and bedroom accommodations.

If we are to allow gays to openly serve, we may as well have men and women using the same open shower facilities and barracks.

This is the root of the problem. Sexual harassment and violence can be dealt with the same way it already is.

Just like some women would be abhorred by sharing a shower facility with men, some men are abhorred for a man who may be turned on by him, to see him naked.

This is the clearest problem. Not the only one. I get tired of re-arguing these same arguments over and over. Why cannot the advocates understand this concern?

When public nudity becomes commonly accepted in the USA, then we can have soldiers sharing such facilities.

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WTF?? You don't want to allow gays in the military because of some jackasses' insecurity?? You're truly one of the dumbest MOFO's on the board, you know that!?

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Originally Posted by DarkReign

Military courts may have more teeth than a civilian court, but a battefield makes for an awful crime scene.

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I've never been in combat, and outside of the personal stories that have been shared with me by friends and loved ones, I don't pretend to know. However, except in rare cases, I cannot imagine such a situation as you propose beyond possible a handful of isolated incidents. And even then, I just don't think it would happen. You're talking about a trained soldier lying in wait to murder another person, and then, presumably being able to do so in the middle of a high pressure situation. You're also either presupposing that everyone around will be oblivious or that they'd be of like minds.

Anyone capable of plotting such a thing is likely to exhibit behavior of an unacceptable nature prior to a combat situation and would already be on the radar, if not weeded out entirely. Those clever enough to slip by without notice would be sociopaths and you cannot base military policy on the weight of whatifs like that. It is far more likely that, as in previous cases, combat and close quarters would strengthen the bond between those serving and highlight just how insignificant such differences are in the bigger picture.

The military has adapted to accept issues of race and gender. They can adapt to this.

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Originally Posted by DarkReign

I simply state what I believe to be true. In a combat situation, liberties are taken. The term "fragging" comes to mind during the Vietnam war.

Military courts may have more teeth than a civilian court, but a battefield makes for an awful crime scene.

Finally, its up to the brass to figure it out. I dont pretend to know anything about our country's servicemen beyond the 4-5 I know and my impressions. Beyond that, its conjecture.

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Killing without consent is awful, and when you kill anyone anywhere without their consent you take their liberty. So whether it's on a battle field, or outside of a bar where a gay kid gets tortured and beaten to death, it's still a negative.

Gays are persecuted everywhere, and to think that gays aren't persecuted in the military as it stands now is to lie to oneself. The amount of persecution may rise in the beginning, but it most likely would calm. Just because being open about being gay isn't advocated, doesn't mean knowing someone is gay and persecuting them isn't possible. (Friendly fire on those perceived as gay may already exist. Violence against those thought to be gay may already exist.)

But to say you shouldn't have a say in it because you're not apart of the military is not something I agree with. To have a hands off approach to this matter is something that will only perpetuate the current status quo. To say someone can't be proud of who they are because of fear of violence is absurd. It's everywhere. It's at school, the office, the bar, on the sports teams etc. In all these places, like the military, the threat of death and violence is present, and possible.

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Originally Posted by Spur-Addict

Gays are persecuted everywhere, and to think that gays aren't persecuted in the military as it stands now is to lie to oneself.

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It's also worth noting that one sinister aspect of current policy is how it strips gay service persons of the ability to report crimes against them without facing a discharge themselves.

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Originally Posted by MaryAnnKilledGinger

It's also worth noting that one sinister aspect of current policy is how it strips gay service persons of the ability to report crimes against them without facing a discharge themselves.

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Not necessarily. They can report the crime and say its because the other party believed they are gay but they cannot be asked if they are or not. But that goes to the point of my post above, finding someone who is sympathetic to your problem isn't the easiest thing in the military.

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Originally Posted by romad_20

It would be quite the shock. There was only one person that was suspected of being gay in my squadron while I was in. This guy was persecuted by his peers and the leadership looked away. The people who were supposed to be looking out for his treatment and well being did nothing. No one, not even the 1st Sgt who usually helped everyone in trouble, even drug trouble. He ended up running off awol for weeks. Rumors were rampant while he was awol. His reputation was ruined and he was quickly charged under the UCMJ and discharged when he was found. Served time at Levenworth. Life ruined.

If you think that wouldn't happen to more people if the policy was changed over night you're kidding yourself. If someone with enough pull wants to give you a screwjob it will happen. Combine that with the overwhelming machismo attitude of the military and you've got yourself a powder keg. It would be a bigger shock than you think, my friend.

I think the change should come with careful planning and education starting in boot camp. The entire culture and thinking on the subject would have to shift.

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Uhm, if the policy were changed, then they would be ALLOWED to be open, and it would be ILLEGAL to discriminate against them. As it is now, soldiers can not come out, and so they have no leg to stand on for being discriminated against.

In response to your answer to MAKG, if a First Shirt decided to 'sit on' the issue, then they would be able to take it up to the IG. Right now, there are no firm punishments for making fun of someone for possibly being gay, because theoretically you're not supposed to be. However, if gays COULD serve, then it would be a serious problem to discriminate against them because of it.

I truly believe that atheists/agnostics would be discriminated against MUCH more if that were legal, for instance.

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Originally Posted by romad_20

Not necessarily. They can report the crime and say its because the other party believed they are gay but they cannot be asked if they are or not. But that goes to the point of my post above, finding someone who is sympathetic to your problem isn't the easiest thing in the military.

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True, but not without shining that light of suspicion upon themselves.

May I ask how recently you served? I'm genuinely curious because the attitude you're sharing is consistent with stories my father and others have told me from the 1970s and even 80s, but those friends of mine that served while I was in college and after (two of which are actually gay themselves) have told me the general attitude is not nearly as hostile specifically toward gays so much as just "picking on the little guy" in general during boot camp hazing, etc.

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Originally Posted by MaryAnnKilledGinger

True, but not without shining that light of suspicion upon themselves.

May I ask how recently you served? I'm genuinely curious because the attitude you're sharing is consistent with stories my father and others have told me from the 1970s and even 80s, but those friends of mine that served while I was in college and after (two of which are actually gay themselves) have told me the general attitude is not nearly as hostile specifically toward gays so much as just "picking on the little guy" in general during boot camp hazing, etc.

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I got out in 2002. But as I said before, I was in a male-only career field, so the attitude there is different.

I think the people in this thread are assuming things work the same way in the military as they do everyday life. I would like to see the policy changed, but it has to be done in a smart way that does take into account the safety of currently serving gay members and a change in the culture from boot camp on.

Can you imagine if you are gay and serving, and people you have worked with for years who have been bashing the gay lifestyle all of a sudden knew you were gay? I mean just because things are the right thing to do doesn't mean it has to be done immediately and without regard for real-world situations that will happen.

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Originally Posted by romad_20

I got out in 2002. But as I said before, I was in a male-only career field, so the attitude there is different.

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Thank you. That's interesting.

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Originally Posted by romad_20

Can you imagine if you are gay and serving, and people you have worked with for years who have been bashing the gay lifestyle all of a sudden knew you were gay?

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Maybe this is one of the military-world / real-world differences you spoke of, but just because it would be okay to be gay doesn't necessarily mean gay service persons would wear it on their sleeves. One would assume they'd be able to recognize the environment and act in their own best interest. I mean, it's not like they'd have different color uniforms or anything.

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Originally Posted by MaryAnnKilledGinger

Thank you. That's interesting.



Maybe this is one of the military-world / real-world differences you spoke of, but just because it would be okay to be gay doesn't necessarily mean gay service persons would wear it on their sleeves. One would assume they'd be able to recognize the environment and act in their own best interest. I mean, it's not like they'd have different color uniforms or anything.

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What' the difference if you can't say you're gay because of policy or if you can't say it because you're in fear. If they can't just come out without any fear, then nothing has really changed.

I think it needs to be a well-defined, systematic approach of teaching and tolerance. Education early in training about discrimination and strong repercussions for said discrimination would be a good way to start.

No matter what the approach is, it will take time. The military does not like change, one little bit.

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Originally Posted by romad_20

It would be quite the shock. There was only one person that was suspected of being gay in my squadron while I was in. This guy was persecuted by his peers and the leadership looked away. The people who were supposed to be looking out for his treatment and well being did nothing. No one, not even the 1st Sgt who usually helped everyone in trouble, even drug trouble. He ended up running off awol for weeks. Rumors were rampant while he was awol. His reputation was ruined and he was quickly charged under the UCMJ and discharged when he was found. Served time at Levenworth. Life ruined.

If you think that wouldn't happen to more people if the policy was changed over night you're kidding yourself. If someone with enough pull wants to give you a screwjob it will happen. Combine that with the overwhelming machismo attitude of the military and you've got yourself a powder keg. It would be a bigger shock than you think, my friend.

I think the change should come with careful planning and education starting in boot camp. The entire culture and thinking on the subject would have to shift.

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In this matter it's about accountability. The gay man or women in this situation had no one to run to. SO yes of course it makes sense that this person left. If he could report this to a higher authority which goes beyond his or her unit, that can be solved easily.

If you think a person who has served for decades would risk his retirement for this, then you are mistaken. IF they do, then it's their own problem if they hate gays that much. In regards to those who are privates, or other lower level service men and women, they can make that choice as well. If they want to risk what they have going for persecuting someone then so be it. They can then be served their papers, and goodbye.

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Originally Posted by MaryAnnKilledGinger

Thank you. That's interesting.



Maybe this is one of the military-world / real-world differences you spoke of, but just because it would be okay to be gay doesn't necessarily mean gay service persons would wear it on their sleeves. One would assume they'd be able to recognize the environment and act in their own best interest. I mean, it's not like they'd have different color uniforms or anything.

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Oh, c'mon, I thought it goes without saying that as soon as they were allowed to express their gayness, the gays would start wearing that pink camoflage!!!

/sarcasm

Look, I do believe that immersion would be the only way to make it work. I like the idea of having education for those entering the military on the subject. As far as those who have so much fear of gays that they would scream at the thought of being in the same shower, suck it the F up. To give a little historical precedence, there were also those who feared that allowing the black man to use the same showers would, I don't know, infect them or something. Then the rules changed and they all had to integrate, and while there were incidents, it turned out ok. Point is there is nothing to it but to do it. The faster you start the faster it will be finished.

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Originally Posted by romad_20

What' the difference if you can't say you're gay because of policy or if you can't say it because you're in fear. If they can't just come out without any fear, then nothing has really changed.

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Knowing when to keep your mouth shut about your personal life and beliefs in the wrong kind of company is something people of all walks face every day. Opting to hold your tongue is profoundly different from being forced to keep silent.

Naturally there would need to be other adjustments to protocols in order to deal with this transition, but the military has faced such circumstances before with integration.

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Originally Posted by romad_20

What' the difference if you can't say you're gay because of policy or if you can't say it because you're in fear. If they can't just come out without any fear, then nothing has really changed.

I think it needs to be a well-defined, systematic approach of teaching and tolerance. Education early in training about discrimination and strong repercussions for said discrimination would be a good way to start.

No matter what the approach is, it will take time. The military does not like change, one little bit.

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Not to say that some won't come out of the closet due to fear, but that is not the only reason. I promise you I don't go to my place of work and say "I am a heterosexual" to every person I meet. Similarly, they would not just show up to work the first day after the repeal and announce to the world that they are gay.

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Originally Posted by MaryAnnKilledGinger

Knowing when to keep your mouth shut about your personal life and beliefs in the wrong kind of company is something people of all walks face every day. Opting to hold your tongue is profoundly different from being forced to keep silent.

Naturally there would need to be other adjustments to protocols in order to deal with this transition, but the military has faced such circumstances before with integration.

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Very true, but its going to be hard to not live a double life if you choose to "stay silent" on the issue. There is no real separation between personal and professional life in the military (the main reason I left) Just more things to consider when thinking about the siuation.

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Originally Posted by Drachen

Not to say that some won't come out of the closet due to fear, but that is not the only reason. I promise you I don't go to my place of work and say "I am a heterosexual" to every person I meet. Similarly, they would not just show up to work the first day after the repeal and announce to the world that they are gay.

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No but what about these questions:

Are you married?
Do you have kids?
What's your girlfriend's name?
When was the last time you got laid?
What kind of women/men do you like?
Why haven't you brought anyone to the christmas party in 20 years?

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Originally Posted by romad_20

Very true, but its going to be hard to not live a double life if you choose to "stay silent" on the issue. There is no real separation between personal and professional life in the military (the main reason I left) Just more things to consider when thinking about the siuation.

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In theory, gay service persons will be going through a period of adjustment as well. Right now they're all pretty much leading double lives. I doubt they'll all jump out of the closet at once just because it's allowed. I'm sure they'll need time to adjust to the freedom to be true to themselves as much as the military will need to adjust to allowing them such freedom.