Military Veterans Push for Repeal of 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell'

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Originally Posted by romad_20

Not necessarily. They can report the crime and say its because the other party believed they are gay but they cannot be asked if they are or not. But that goes to the point of my post above, finding someone who is sympathetic to your problem isn't the easiest thing in the military.

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Making it law with punishment will improve the situation. To just say fuck it, is not helping anyone.

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Originally Posted by romad_20

No but what about these questions:

Are you married?
Do you have kids?
What's your girlfriend's name?
When was the last time you got laid?
What kind of women/men do you like?
Why haven't you brought anyone to the christmas party in 20 years?

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Understood, but first of all there are only two questions there that I could see a male service member asking to another male service member (or even one male to another outside of the service), and honestly those two questions are the kind of stuff I would only talk about to people I trust anyway since the answers to those two questions could get a harassment charge slapped on you (military or civilian).

Edit: Anyway, you dont think that gay men and women don't have ridiculous experience dealing with these questions and others on a daily basis from friends, family, coworkers, etc. I think that is very flimsy reasoning. If anyone wants to keep my personal life seperate from their professional life, they can. Case in point, my friend and I wrote and recorded a song about "the shocker" this is not something that I would share with my department head, or my grandmother. People compartmentalize their lives, thus my friends, fiance, etc think the song is great, while my parents and superiors at work dont know about it.

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Originally Posted by Drachen

Understood, but first of all there are only two questions there that I could see a male service member asking to another male service member (or even one male to another outside of the service), and honestly those two questions are the kind of stuff I would only talk about to people I trust anyway since the answers to those two questions could get a harassment charge slapped on you (military or civilian).

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That's you, but I heard more intrusive questions while I was in. I'm pretty salty now compared to civilians. I really don’t know how it is now, its been 6 years since I’ve been out and the military changed tons in the 5 years I was in.

Once again, I'm agreeing with everyone that has responded to me, I'm just giving some alternate concerns/ playing a little Devil's advocate. :lol

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Originally Posted by MaNuMaNiAc

WTF?? You don't want to allow gays in the military because of some jackasses' insecurity?? You're truly one of the dumbest MOFO's on the board, you know that!?

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OK, I understand you advocate mixing of men and women in the shower facilities as well.

Right?

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

OK, I understand you advocate mixing of men and women in the shower facilities as well. Right?

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It wouldn't be the first time coed bathroom facilities were forced on American citizens.

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

OK, I understand you advocate mixing of men and women in the shower facilities as well.

Right?

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Honestly, were those advocating integration of black and white showers also advocating the mixing of men and women in the shower facilities? You are building a straw man.

Kazakhi military is all homosexual! The straight are the outcasts!

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Originally Posted by Drachen

Honestly, were those advocating integration of black and white showers also advocating the mixing of men and women in the shower facilities? You are building a straw man.

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Call it what you want. You cannot simply ignore the fact that this would be required in the name of equality.

Are you in favor or removing the only privacy male and female military members have living in the barracks?

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

Are you in favor or removing the only privacy male and female military members have living in the barracks?

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How is showering with other people privacy?

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Originally Posted by Iakchos Kadmos

Kazakhi military is all homosexual! The straight are the outcasts!

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I've been watching Hogan's Heroes on DVD, start to finish. I'm on season 4, the last disk.

Anyway, I could see a homosexual Nazi being sent to the Eastern Front, that is, if he isn't just shot!

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

Call it what you want. You cannot simply ignore the fact that this would be required in the name of equality.

Are you in favor or removing the only privacy male and female military members have living in the barracks?

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Although I never agree with WC, I can't disagree with him in this instance. You would have to put in place a seperate shower facility for those who didn't feel comfortable with showering with gay people of the same gender, otherwise you'd be overlooking their rights to privacy as well.

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Originally Posted by MaryAnnKilledGinger

How is showering with other people privacy?

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Privacy between men and women.

Do you think women would appriciate showering with men?

Why would hetrosexuals want to shower with homosexuals?

Same with sleeping in the same room. Because of sexual hangups, women are allowed to be separate from men. Equal protection allows for such separation then of straits from homosexuals.

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

Call it what you want. You cannot simply ignore the fact that this would be required in the name of equality.

Are you in favor or removing the only privacy male and female military members have living in the barracks?

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Not until the civilian world is going to integrate those two. Now, back to the issue we were actually talking about: The civilian world is already integrated in such a way that male heteros go to the bathroom with male homos, shower in the same room at gyms, etc. It seems reasonable that the military should finally and belatedly follow.

Given that gay men and women have been showering with their heterosexual kin since junior high school in America, I see this as a non-issue, really. That said, are there really one big room showers in widespread use anymore as opposed to those semi-stall ones?

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Originally Posted by romad_20

Although I never agree with WC, I can't disagree with him in this instance. You would have to put in place a seperate shower facility for those who didn't feel comfortable with showering with gay people of the same gender, otherwise you'd be overlooking their rights to privacy as well.

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So why aren't there seperate shower rooms for those who feel uncomfortable showering with other men in general? Don't they have a right to privacy? As previously stated, when the edict was sent down that the military had to be integrated, don't you think there were whites who were "uncomfortable" showering with blacks, and vice versa? They were told, in effect, that their "seperate showering facility" that made them more comfortable was being taken away, and they dealt with it. Yes there were problems as there always are with change, but as I said the only way to do it, is to do it!


P.S. I would also like to know where in the enlistment contract it states that one has the right to comfortable showering facilities, or even privacy for that matter.

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Originally Posted by MaryAnnKilledGinger

Given that gay men and women have been showering with their heterosexual kin since junior high school in America, I see this as a non-issue, really. That said, are there really one big room showers in widespread use anymore as opposed to those semi-stall ones?

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Yes they do still use those big rooms.

The problem here is that if a person doesn't agree with the gay lifestyle or they feel uncomfortable showering with gay people because of the sexual attration to the same sex, those concerns shouldn't be overlooked. Showering in a gym with random people is different than showering with people you know on a daily basis.

You wouldn't force a woman to shower among men that could be attracted to her and vice versa. I am not playing devil's advocate on this one, I think this is a legit issue.

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Originally Posted by Drachen

So why aren't there seperate shower rooms for those who feel uncomfortable showering with other men in general? Don't they have a right to privacy? As previously stated, when the edict was sent down that the military had to be integrated, don't you think there were whites who were "uncomfortable" showering with blacks, and vice versa? They were told, in effect, that their "seperate showering facility" that made them more comfortable was being taken away, and they dealt with it. Yes there were problems as there always are with change, but as I said the only way to do it, is to do it!


P.S. I would also like to know where in the enlistment contract it states that one has the right to comfortable showering facilities, or even privacy for that matter.

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Not a question of race here. You could have multiple sexual harassment suits come out of this. Lets say you turn around and someone's eyeing you while you shower? That's not a problem? Come on lets be real here.

It basically comes down to one person's right to be openly gay and serve in the military and another's right to not have to shower around people who are attracted to their sex. I say the former trumps the latter by a mile. Those who are afraid of being stared at by gays in the shower can bathe with their boxers on or something.

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Originally Posted by romad_20

Not a question of race here. You could have multiple sexual harassment suits come out of this. Lets say you turn around and someone's eyeing you while you shower? That's not a problem? Come on lets be real here.

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I would imagine scenarios such as this would be dealt with in a similar manner as a business executive who has a tendency to talk to women's tits in meetings.

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Originally Posted by romad_20

Not a question of race here. You could have multiple sexual harassment suits come out of this. Lets say you turn around and someone's eyeing you while you shower? That's not a problem? Come on lets be real here.

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No, it's not a question of race, it's a question of one's comfort level with the differences of another, just like the question of race. Also, the "Daddy, she's looking at me" doesn't work with my kids, and so it's not going to suffice with adults.

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Originally Posted by Spurminator

It basically comes down to one person's right to be openly gay and serve in the military and another's right to not have to shower around people who are attracted to their sex. I say the former trumps the latter by a mile. Those who are afraid of being stared at by gays in the shower can bathe with their boxers on or something.

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Now this is a ridiculous statement. Neither trumps the other, they are equal. Its a legitimate concern when dealing with the issue.

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Originally Posted by Spurminator

I would imagine scenarios such as this would be dealt with in a similar manner as a business executive who has a tendency to talk to women's tits in meetings.

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This here seems to be completely reasonable and logical.

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Originally Posted by romad_20

Now this is a ridiculous statement. Neither trumps the other, they are equal. Its a legitimate concern when dealing with the issue.

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Even if they are equal (and the notion that they are is pretty fucking ridiculous, IMO) you can easily make accommodations for people to shower alone. I personally don't want to shower with a bunch of other guys straight or otherwise.

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Originally Posted by MannyIsGod

Even if they are equal (and the notion that they are is pretty fucking ridiculous, IMO) you can easily make accommodations for people to shower alone. I personally don't want to shower with a bunch of other guys straight or otherwise.

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I don't think this is always convienient, plus I think the whole idea is about equality, so the quicker you integrate, the quicker you make this a non-issue.

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Originally Posted by Drachen

No, it's not a question of race, it's a question of one's comfort level with the differences of another, just like the question of race. Also, the "Daddy, she's looking at me" doesn't work with my kids, and so it's not going to suffice with adults.

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Bullshit. So women who don't like men/women staring at them in a sexual manner should just deal with it? Same with men?

The quickness to go to bat for one side while totally overlooking concerns for the other is short sighted and stupid. This isn't about intolerance or not accepting another's differences, this is about your rights as a person and what you should and shouldn't have to subject yourself to.

Showering with people who are not attracted to your sex is very different than showering with people who are attracted to your sex. I would like to hear a gay person’s view on the subject. I’m sure it wouldn’t be easy to shower with someone who you know and are attracted to but doesn’t share the feelings.