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Way to go you posted a dead video..
Christians intolerant? You don't say?
Hindus have killed 100s of Christians over the past few weeks... but don't let that change your own "intolerant" tune.... :rolleyesQuote:
Originally Posted by baseline bum
Yeah, Christians have never killed people of other religions for answering the god question differently.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phenomanul
any religion makes you hate and kill people
Two wrongs don't make a right.Quote:
Originally Posted by baseline bum
And those "Christians" that you describe with your statement, do not Christendom define. Christians are to bear the fruit of the Spirit. They should embody attributes of love, peace, kindness, forgiveness... etc...
But again, don't let that stop you and others in the anti-christian crowd from painting with broad strokes... You all are good at it.
Let me try...
Hitler, Stalin, and Kim Yong-il were/are all athiestic mass murderers (who killed in the name of their beliefs).... I guess that must mean that the atheistic 'religion' is defined by hate and murder .... :rolleyes
Geesssh... the intolerance of some people around here is ridiculously ignorant...
Including yours.Quote:
Originally Posted by boutons_
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phenomanul
Mine doesn't!! Woo Hoo!
Quote:
Originally Posted by boutons_
So THAT'S why I have this insatiable addiction to going on random shooting sprees in crowded places. And all this time I just thought it was because I'm an angry sociopath...
Nice argument. You're the one who painted Hindus as murderers in your post to justify the Christians interrupting dude's prayer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phenomanul
if he's posting an instance that actually happened "a few weeks ago" then how is that "painting" exactly?Quote:
Originally Posted by baseline bum
I'm stating two wrongs don't make a right...Quote:
Originally Posted by baseline bum
Your initial comment, on the other hand, cast all Christianity in negative light.
My initial comment presented the context of what is going on in India this very moment. Most Americans aren't even aware this is going on. Churches have been burned down, pastors dragged out and killed, whole villages wiped out. Yes, intolerance is one of humanities' most despicable attributes. To suggest, however, that this trait is tied only to religion is fool-hardy, reprehensible and an outright lie.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phenomanul
Every religion has its extremists, the zealots who bring shame upon the larger community. The majority of any religion's followers view their religion as an aid to mental peace, instilling good values in children, etc. But the 10% or so who are loony are the ones who end up causing bad blood between religions.
Christianity is no different. Religion is a private practice and should remain as such. The fact that institutions (like the Church) make it a public/social practice, and encourage people to apply religion to areas where it has no business being applied, such as politics, education, etc is the root of the problem.
Christianity (or Hinduism or Islam) is not the problem. It is the Church (or temples or mosques) and their leaders who need to be reformed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phenomanul
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7214053.stmQuote:
Christian mob
No side is left blameless in this conflict. After the initial attacks on church institutions and the shops and homes of Christian families, Christian mobs responded in kind.
A Hindu woman walks through her destroyed village
In the village of Gadapur, Hindu families, standing amid the charred rubble of their homes, told me how a mob of tribal Christians had descended on them, forcing them to flee into the forest, before destroying every shop and dwelling in the village.
For those now living in makeshift tents, or in the ruins of their old homes, aid from the state government has been limited: a few tents, some plastic sheeting, food and cooking utensils.
I could find no source claiming "hundreds" of Christians have been killed by Hindus.
Thousands of Christians have been made homeless, however, and there have been reports of deaths on both sides.
The fighting appearst to be over the murder of an anti-christian Hindu demagogue, apparently by Maoist guerillas. The guerillas deny the killing and many of his followers blame Christian attackers, due to the number of death threats against the demogogue by Christians.
Not exactly a shining moment for either religion.
If a holy war were to ever break out, I think I would lean to the Christians. I'm not sure why, perhaps because I was raised Lutheran (am now Agnostic)...but these christian bashers really annoy the fuck out of me.
"tied only to religion" is false.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phenomanul
"tied often to religion" not so much.
"tied more often than Phenomanul would probably be comfortable admitting to" ...?
What shining moments does religion have? 9/11? Black slavery? The war in Iraq? The crusades?Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomGuy
The Resurrection.Quote:
Originally Posted by baseline bum
http://www.ccusa.org/info.asp (christian charities list)Quote:
Originally Posted by baseline bum
Baptist Children's Home Ministries
Children's Emergency Relief TeamsQuote:
If life was bad for Ian and his six-month-old baby sister before...now it was even worse. With their physically abusive father and mother in jail the children went to live with their Grandmother. But Grandmother was also a drug user and often left Ian to fend for himself and his tiny baby sister.
A foster family was found for the baby, but Ian was sent to live with an aunt. Sadly at the first court hearing his aunt told the judge, "I don't want him," leaving Ian confused, scared, and alone.
Today, Ian runs around the playroom hugging a stuffed puppy given to him at the Baptist Children's Home Ministry's Emergency Shelter. Ian now has a smile on his face and a new sparkle in his eyes. He has finally come to a place where he is safe and cared for. Ian is beginning to heal.
Watching this little boy, it is hard to imagine anyone not wanting him. But the sad reality is that he is just one of the many unwanted children who need care. Your gift to Baptist Children's Home Ministry can give neglected and abused children, who deserve ... more than anyone else... a new beginning
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Fighting For His Life Alipio is a Machiguenga infant we found clinging to his mother and fighting for his life, deep in Peru's Amazon Jungle. He had a severe case of Yellow Fever, was malnourished, dehydrated, and infested with intestinal worms. Our doctors said, "Without immediate hospital care Alipio will die," (photo on the right). Alipio was one of three children found in this condition, yet Alipio's mother Paulina was the only mother brave enough to leave the village of Yomibato with her son. SHE TRUSTED CERT WITH THE LIFE OF HER CHILD. To bring mom and son out of this highly restricted area required special government permission. After a three day boat ride downriver to the jungle town of Puerto Maldonado, a CERT representative and local pastor contacted government officials and began the "red tape" process. As only the Lord can do, permission and permits were quickly granted. Then the pastor had to make the long trip back upriver to Yomibato to get Alipio and his mother. On the fourth day just before getting to Yomibato, a propeller on the motor broke. The next day, after retrieving Alipio and Paulina the spare prop broke. "Propless", it took seven days of floating and paddling downriver to Puerto Maldonado where medical attention awaited. Alipio was immediately hospitalized where he received life-saving care for the next two weeks. Thanks be to God and partners like you, Alipio is back home in Yomibato now É doing what healthy little Machiguenga boys do.
http://www.muslimhands.org/en/gb/ (muslim charity)
http://www.egyptgiftshop.com/islamic...nizations.htmlQuote:
Qurbani 2008
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Sponsor an orphan
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http://www.sewainternational.com/ (hindu charity)
Sewa International to Provide Relief to Hurricane Ike EffectedQuote:
SEWA INTERNATIONAL, UK appeals
the benevolent to help these unfortunate victims. Your support will help reduce the sufferings of
these people in the flood affected state of Bihar, living in the remote areas. Sewa International
will help the flood victims to bring back life to normal in the state of Bihar.
in Appeals
Date: Sept. 16th, 2008
---------------------------------Quote:
As Hurricane Ike passed through four southern states, it left the devastating destruction. The storm as large as the state of Texas left its affect from Louisiana to Texas. The hurricane killed 34 in US and several thousands were evacuated and taking shelter.
Sewa International USA extends its sympathy to victims of Hurricane Ike and condolences to those whose family member lost life. Sewa International USA Houston chapter is working with various organizations to provide relief to people living in shelters in Houston. And hope to actively support relief activity. Particularly we are concerned about the International students dislocated due to loss of power and access to food.
http://sikhcharity.blogspot.com/ (sikh charity)
UK Sikh in 4,000km charity walk
-----------------------------------
I will stop there. I think I have made my point. If anyone doubts that I could fill hundreds of posts with similar bits, I can keep going.
Religious folks are just like everybody else-- some are very good, some are very bad, and many are somewhere in between.
Actually some good came out of the Crusades. In fact, it saved western civilization.
"What do I think of Western civilization? I think it would be a very good idea."
- Mohandas Gandhi
Humans will always find ways of dividing themselves from each other and of feeling superior to each other, whether it is black/white/brown/yellow, baptist/methodist, protestant/catholic, christian/muslim/hindu, village A/village B, Spurs/Mavericks (HA!).
Each of us holds within ourselves the good or evil that humans are capable of, and that is what makes us human. It is not religion itself that is evil any more than a hammer is evil. It is what you do with your faith.
I think that God and the universe speaks to us often, but sadly, some are too busy to really listen. In the end, in a hundred years I will be just as dead as the most vile, evil person alive today. I would hope that in some way, my life's actions reduce the world's misery, and that the world is better for my having been in it. I also hope there are enough people who choose to act to do the same that on balance things get better over time.
That's hot.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomGuy
So you are all about criticizing religion but when someone points out 5 of the 5,000,000,000 good things that come out of religion, you have nothing but a shitty joke?Quote:
Originally Posted by baseline bum
Pretty hard to see how any of that is on par with the black eyes on religion I mentioned above.Quote:
Originally Posted by johnsmith
What does this have to do with my admission of anything? I have no vested stake in defending the actions of those who profess to be christians and respond by acting un-Christlike. They will be held accountable for their own actions. That people continue to gauge an entire belief system, however, based solely on the actions of those who don't even represent its ideals is beyond my control.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomGuy
I clearly stated that intolerance (and the actions it breeds) is a despicable human trait.
Those who wish to tie it to religion, while being blind to everthing else are deceiving only themselves... it reflects their own personal bias.
are these the demons?
How else am I to respond to your constant cynicism, ridicule and scorn? Naively? Please... You're old enough where you know exactly what you're doing. You need to grow up.Quote:
Originally Posted by clambake
Anyways to answer your "question"... Without acceptance of Christ's redemptive act of forgiveness you will meet those demons soon enough...
As harsh as that may sound. It's still completely up to you.
:lmaoQuote:
Originally Posted by Phenomanul
this is about you, not me.
are people who kill in the name of religion demons?
Hitler: over 6 millioin Jews dead... started a war that resulted in over 70 million human casualties.Quote:
Originally Posted by baseline bum
Stalin: over 40 million dead... imposed a regime that turned Russia upside down.
The list goes on and on for people that waged wars over something other than "religion"....
Alexander the Great, Ghengis Khan, Napoleon, Attila the Hun, Mao, Kim Yong-il
No. People are responsible for their own actions.Quote:
Originally Posted by clambake
you could have thrown bush in there while you're at it.
you came into this thread shouting tit for tat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phenomanul
are you saying that people who kill in the name of religion has nothing to do with religion?
Another even-handed and rational discussion on religion for the SpursTalk Political Forum.
Well done, everybody.
hitler prayed before major battles
anyway, the Church kept Europe from caving in on itself during the dark ages and established the first schools
tough question huh?
Conveniently you've ignored the fact that I stated on three separate occasions that "two wrongs don't make a right"... I'm not defending the actions of anyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by clambake
Your bias is clear...
Like I said earlier.... grow up.
just won't answer that question, huh?
Alongside the satanic cult that put him in power.... but don't tell clambake... he doesn't believe in demons.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Reckoning
People who kill in the name of religion don't typically embody what their religion represents...Quote:
Originally Posted by clambake
just can't do it, huh?Quote:
Originally Posted by Phenomanul
Your reading comprehension is not my problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by clambake
What about people who think the bible is true? The bible that tells them to kill people who follow gods other than Yahweh?Quote:
Originally Posted by Phenomanul
I thought Hitler was a Christian.
phenom bailed without answering.
must be buried in scripture.
bright peach just isn't his color...:wakeup
If all you have in response is a rather shameful and lame attempt at humor to avoid admitting that you might be just slightly wrong or inaccurate when you imply that religion is nothing but evil, I understand.Quote:
Originally Posted by baseline bum
No one likes to admit that they might be wrong, just don't expect anyone to really buy your arguments.
People will see you for what you are when you say things like this, and if what you say here isn't something you could stand up in front of your friends and family and say in person, then I can only hope that someday you might look inside and grow a little beyond such things.
Quote:
hitler prayed before major battles
(shakes head)Quote:
Originally Posted by Phenomanul
I guess it is easier to believe that Hitler et al. were somehow satanists rather than people who actually believed in Christ and thought of themselves as Christians.
An odd duality given that you have already made the logical distinction between a religion's worth versus people that make up that religion.
You are comfortable, and honest enough to say "those people say they are Christians, but do some very un-Christ-like" things", so why prevaricate and try to claim the leaders of Nazi germany were really not Christians?
I would say that you prefer to believe otherwise, evidence to the contrary notwithstanding.
There is more than enough evidence to show that Hitler was involved in several satanic rituals... Much of it surfaced after several Nazi files were made public, 'declassified' in 2001.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomGuy
You can't serve two masters....
Quote:
Originally Posted by clambake
It is a fair question, Phenomanul.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phenomanul
Just as fairly: I think you have answered it already.
To my understanding you have answered:
Yes, it does have something to do with religion in a sense that it is done supposedly in the name of religion. Further, the core of most religions do not endorse wanton murder, and that the people who commit such things do not do so because their religion requires it, they do so because they are fallible human beings doing things that are actually against the religion they profess.
I would agree with that statement.
I'm not even sure what the debate is about here, but the resolution is pretty simple.
You either believe that people who do things in the name of anything, do so because they are acting in accordance with what that thing tells them to do.
Or, you believe they do so not in accordance with what that thing tells them to do.
I am not sure there is "more than enough" evidence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phenomanul
I do not know exactly what evidence you are referring to, but I think that your confirmation bias is probably leading you to assign more weight to it than is reasonable.
You say that, but all I hear is:Quote:
Originally Posted by I Love Me Some Me
`Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.
to which I reply:
"uh, what?"
Could you try that again? I really am not entirely sure what you are trying to get at.
Anyhoo, time to get to work.
Peace out, my ninjas.
http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/ninja-12.jpg
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomGuy
:lol
I guess the question is, in your understanding of Christ's teachings, do you believe the 'Christians' who committed these horrible offenses did so in correct response to Christ's teachings?
Not quite at the same level as the atrocities committed in the name of religion, is it? Nursing a few sick babies doesn't quite make up for the crusades, brainwashing black slaves, 9/11, and all the other great things religion has brought us. So get off your high horse.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomGuy
So I guess things like schools and hospitals which were founded by the religious don't count either?Quote:
Originally Posted by baseline bum
By the way if it weren't for the crusades you'd be bowing to allah right now.
If we're going to talk hypotheticals, Islam is nowhere near as hostile without having Muslims slaughtered by Christians in the crusades. If it wasn't for the crusades you would be bowing to Allah, not me. (of course, making your assumption that the crusades kept Europe from being Muslim).Quote:
Originally Posted by SAtoDallas
Random Guy is on a high horse???Quote:
Originally Posted by baseline bum
You're the one preferentially judging equally atrocious acts of human history as 'unequal'...
I would probably credit that more to the Reconquista in Spain and Jan Sobieski's leadership in the Battle of Vienna, neither of which are generally considered crusades.Quote:
Originally Posted by SAtoDallas
Did you ever hear of William Wilberforce? Several prominent Christian leaders opposed the practice of slavery. Greed and prejudice led to slavery not religion. Your bias is unrelenting. Revising and ignoring history to suit your arguments is counterproductive to your stance.Quote:
Originally Posted by baseline bum
For that matter, on a related topic, most Christian leaders within Nazi Germany were opposed to the Nazi party, its tactics, and its beliefs. Many were killed for it.
the bible says slavery is cool.
Read up on Hitler, Hess and Himnler...Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomGuy
Or rent "The History of the Occult Third Reich" on DVD. It aired on the History channel 2 years ago (?) as a 5 part mini-series.
Like I said, or rather, like Jesus said, "You can't serve two masters."
The fact that Hitler professed to be "christian" was greatly countered by his actions.
Let's see what we know about Hitler...
--- He ordered the murder of millions.
--- He engaged in pedofilia and homosexuality.
--- His obsession with eastern occult religions (and hence why a swastika was chosen as a Nazi party symbol) don't particularly validate his alleged christianity.
--- His anti-semitism, as many would hate to admit, is not biblically founded.
--- His own 'messianic' ambitions were blasphemy.
Look... even satan recognizes Jesus as KING of KINGS and LORD of LORDS... but that doesn't make him a christian.
So how many slaves did Jesus own?Quote:
Originally Posted by clambake
the bible says slavery is cool.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phenomanul
Did the bible specifically say Jesus owned no slaves?
Just curious.
Please. The masters filled their slaves' heads with Christian heaven fantasies about how their toil and suffering was good and would make their spot in the afterlife that much better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phenomanul
besides...aren't churches SUPPOSED to do those sort of things?Quote:
Originally Posted by baseline bum
like help the sick, disabled, homeless and needy?
not just take ten percent of our income & turn a profit...
i think that all churches in the US that don't perform some sort of community service should lose their tax-exempt status...
taking in a income w/o putting anything back in the community is just robbery and we shouldn't allow it...
would we allow an oil company(or any business) to exist w/tax credits, if they didn't bring jobs or charity to the community?...
and the fact that those extremist in the vid are elected officials is just scary...
what's next, a christian version of shariah?
it shows disrespect to one of the foundations of this nation being founded, freedom of religion...
"nursing a few sick babies..."Quote:
Originally Posted by baseline bum
You say that as if there is something that would, in your mind, make up for all of that.
How about nursing tens of millions of sick babies? hundreds of millions?
Since we are playing the moral equivalancy game, we need to know the rules, of course.
The rules are, by your own implication:
1) We can assume religion is good if we can name the things it has done that are good, and they outweigh somehow the bad things.
2) We can assume religion is bad if we can name the things it has done that are evil, and they outweigh somehow the good things.
You cannot logically have #2 without logically having #1. If you want to admit that your position isn't logical, say so now before we begin, so I don't have to waste my time on someone who admits they are being irrational.
Do you accept that these are the rules, and say that your position is a logical one?
The bible is, to my knowledge, silent on that issue. I am by far not an expert though.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChumpDumper
Given what I understand about the place/time and probable economic status of Jesus, it would be a safe assumption to guess that he did own one or two. It may be that references to his slaves were purged during the many re-writes and edits of the stories in the bible in the first millenium and a half after his death.
So you would rather focus on the 'fake' christians... got ya.Quote:
Originally Posted by baseline bum
I'm sure you've never lied before.
a very good response:toastQuote:
Originally Posted by RandomGuy
Why would that be the safe assumption??? Nothing in the context of his life would even remotely suggest He or his family owed any slaves... But why even bother with searching the scriptures for clues if you would rather believe that they were 'altered' to begin with... you'd end up nowhere with that approach.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomGuy
The bible never specifically mentioned that Jesus had 10 toes.... I guess it's safe to assume that He had 12.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChumpDumper
Great logic CD... your cynicism never ceases to amaze me. :downspin:
I merely asked a question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phenomanul
Your capacity to be a douche never ceases to amaze me. :downspin:
How many millions of people have been killed in the name of Government?
Many.
Ergo, Government is bad.
Jesus had disciples who took care of his needs. i dont think it would have been practical for him to own slaves.
we can thank dracula - he owned the shit out of the turks.
but i think the battle of tours really ended the chance of europe being under islam.
Yup the Moops couldn't pull through.
Right... :rolleyes "I merely asked a question"... like I'm supposed to believe you were asking that question in 'sheepish' innocence... You knew exactly what you were doing...Quote:
Originally Posted by ChumpDumper
It was cynical logic at its best... I simply exposed the fallacy in using that argument. That's it.
Nothing personal... you just so happen to be the king of one-liners around these parts (with Oh Gee! and Mr. Peabody close behind.) Your fame precedes you.
1) I have a degree in German. You can assume that I have "read up" on modern german history. I have read Mein Kampf in the original language. Hitler criticised much of the voelkisch occultism that was in vogue at the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phenomanul
The NSDAP (german acronym for the Nazi party) drew some of the original inspiration from the Germanenorden movement, and no historian disputes that the swastika symbol was drawn directly from this movement.
But there is no credible evidence to support the assertion that Hitler was some sort of Satanist of any kind.
Hitler used some of the voelkisch romantic themes to weave into his speeches, but after coming to power ruthlessly suppressed the paganistic movements that spawned this romanticised version of nordic mythology.
Quite frankly most of the "evidence" you seem to have bought into amounts to little more than conspiracy theories that suit your confirmation bias.
There is no credible evidence that I have seen that he was either a pedophile or a homosexual. [BEGIN EDIT] Indeed, such charges are to be treated with a great deal of skepticism, as they are precisely the kinds of things that his enemies would simply make up out of thin air to discredit and villify him, as if we needed anything else to villify him with other than mass murder.[/END EDIT]
I am not going to defend him or his actions, but I won't buy into bullshit either.
The NSDAP very definitely tried to weave a sort of neo-paganistic element into German identity by working with some of aspects of volksmthyhologie, and some of the higher ups, yes including Himmler seem to have bought into astrology, but that is about as far as the evidence supports it went.
Yes, I knew exactly what I was doing -- asking a question because I was curious about it. I didn't know if anything was said about it. If anything, I was going to follow up with questions about what he said and did about slavery, again because I simply want to know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phenomanul
I made no argument whatsoever. You're being an overly defensive dumbass for no reason.Quote:
It was cynical logic at its best... I simply exposed the fallacy in using that argument. That's it.
Nothing personal...you just happen to be an asshole. So instead of leaping to the defense the Jesus when it wasn't warranted, why don't you just answer the question and let people think for themselves? Why do you have such an aversion to that? You act like you have something to hide regarding your religion.Quote:
Nothing personal... you just so happen to be the king of one-liners around these parts (with Oh Gee! and Mr. Peabody close behind.) Your fame precedes you.
Jesus, as a skilled carpenter, would have been in the upper middle class at the time, and as such would likely have had the means to own a slave or two as was common throughout the Roman Empire for anyone over a certain economic status.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phenomanul
I am by no means an expert on the Bible. I leave that to Extra Stout, but Roman history is something I know a bit about.
Let's see what we know about Hitler...
--- He ordered the murder of millions.
--- He used some mythological themes in some of his speeches.
--- He was an anti-semite
--- He did have some 'messianic' ambitions.
We can surmise that he was a bit insane, and have some evidence that he was quite possibly under the influence of several drugs towards the last few years of his life.
THAT is what we KNOW about Hitler.
I think most of that stuff listed above garners an automatic excommunication, which is nice for busy church officials with all the normal paperwork and such. It would have been nice of them to confirm it though.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomGuy
which they never did...
besides, being an anti-semite was a prac a requirement to being catholic at the time...
even their current leader was a member of the hitler youth...
hitler had the same amount of real christian values as bush....
Well if that was really your intention... it's a first. Every other time you've engaged discussion with me such questions always rear their ugly head further down the thread...Quote:
Originally Posted by ChumpDumper
For that I'm sorry.
Have you seen clambake's questions??? After enduring his constant scorn and cynicism who wouldn't be on the defensive?Quote:
Originally Posted by ChumpDumper
Yup. Hitlers links to the occult are some of the first modern conspiracy theories. It was pretty much the first "9-11 was an inside job" -type conspiracy theory, and worked precisely like the 9-11 truth sites of today, in a pre-internet form.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChumpDumper
One or two people wrote a couple of badly-researched books riddled with logical fallacies, and others picked up on it, re-wrote the stuff, added a few unsupported claims peppered with an occasional fact taken out of context to come up with this whole "Hitler was a satanist" movement.
Substitute "websites" for "books" and "9-11 was an inside job" for "Hitler was a satanist" and you have an apt description of the pathology of a conspiracy theory.
Jesus had several brothers and sisters. His father died sometime between the time Jesus was 12 and before He started his ministry at 30. He was the main provider of the household, and the primary caretaker of his mother. Would he have the money for slaves? Not likely. Plus Jesus was Nazarene. Nazarenes didn't own any slaves. He was also a Rabbi, meaning he had met the qualifications of the Jewish process for priesthood. Priests didn't own slaves.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomGuy
Like I said, the context is there.... If you would just read.
These things always seem to boil down to simple matters of faith. If you really have it, there's not much of an argument against it and there's certainly not much reason to get upset over it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phenomanul
I was really looking more into Jesus in the context of his times. Many of his teachings were downright revolutionary; I was just wondering if any of his pronouncements on slavery ran along those lines. It wouldn't surprise me or disappoint me much if they were not.
:rolleyesQuote:
Originally Posted by 8ft.tall.tejano
the lutherans and other german protestant churches were incredibly anti-semitic. pope benedict was forced to be in the hitler youth - as was all of the german children. he was too young to make a conscious decision to be a nazi. the Church objected to what the nazis were doing, but the pope at that time didnt want hitler putting catholics into concentration camps.
Yup. Those two bits had a lot more to do with it than the Crusades.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Reckoning
It is sad that someone would try some vaguely moral defense of the Crusades by claiming that it "kept Europe Christian". Puh-lease. That is weak on so many levels. :rolleyes
That is such a copout analogy...Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomGuy
Comparing anything to the '9-11' conspiracy movement with the intent of debunking the argument is not an argument in and of itself.
Just see the DVD... it isn't even marketed by Christians... it's a documentary from the History channel.
Hmm. Fair enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phenomanul
Then I would take it back. I did not have this information, and based on this, it is reasonable to assume that he didn't own slaves.
Thank you. It is always good to learn something new.
Religion makes for a lovely pretext for people who want to steal and to kill. They can convince themselves that rather than indulging their own selfish, evil desires, they're doing something for God.
Take away God, and they just find some other "higher cause" to rationalize their actions. See Century, 20th.
Hitler was not a Christian. He did the politician thing and used Christian rhetoric in his rise to power. His religion once in power was a strange blend of Nordic paganism and a revision of Christianity where Jesus was an Aryan anti-Semite white supremacist.
The Crusades did not save Western civilization from Islam. The Fourth Crusade made it really easy for the Ottomans eventually to conquer the Balkans because the Crusader sack of Constantinople irrevocably crippled the Byzantine Empire.
The key battles that staved off Muslim advance were: 1) Tours, 2) the Reconquista, 3) Vienna.
Saying the Crusades are the reason Muslims hate Westerners now is stretching the definition of "reason" beyond recognition. The last of the Crusades happened over 600 years ago. People who hold grudges over things that happened 600 years ago are insane.
Western civilization as we know it is saturated with Christian ideals of morality, even if the piety itself is dying out. Everything about the West, good and bad, happened in a Christian framework from about A.D. 400 until World War I. Picking out the atrocities and saying they are the only thing religion influenced or caused is just cherry-picking.
Jesus was a homeless itinerant preacher with a background in manual labor, probably stonemasonry (he's called a "carpenter," but they didn't build wooden buildings there then). He was dependent upon the hospitality of his followers. It is profoundly unlikely that he himself owned slaves.
The Old Testament specifically allows chattel slavery of foreigners. It allows indentured servanthood of Israelites until the subsequent Year of Jubilee. In the New Testament, slavery is neither vouched for nor condemned as an institution. It simply exists.
The scholarly Greek New Testament that exists today is compiled from extant manuscripts from late antiquity, i.e. the late first to mid-fifth centuries. It is not some bastardized version reflecting 1500 years of editing. The Catholic Church in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries didn't fool the people by giving them a heavily revised Bible that matched their new teachings. They fooled the people by hiding the Bible from them.
Pastors that collect peoples' tithes and use them to buy million-dollar homes and Bentleys are going to burn in hell.
Yes, communities of faith are supposed to do good works. The idea of people doing organized acts of charity for people they don't know did not exist in the West until Christianity came along.
Leave it to ES to summarize and address all the floating questions. I don't have your patience dude... People's stubborness frustrates me to no end...Quote:
Originally Posted by Extra Stout
amen. throughout history the europeans were infatuated with the idea of conquering the middle east. the greeks for glory, the romans for gold, and the crusaders for God. they just found a different excuse every time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Extra Stout