How Auto companies contributed for 9/11/2001

Per CNN Headline News, these were the contributions made by the Automotive industry for 9/11. Thought it was intreasting


1. Ford - $10 Million to Red Cross matching employee contributions of the same number. 10 2002 Ford Excursions to NY Fire Department. Gave office space to displaced government employees

2. GM - $10 Million to Red Cross and matching employee contributions. Donated 15 vehicles including Silverados and Sierras

3. Chrysler $10 million to support the children of victims of the attack

4. Harley Davidson- $1,000,000 and 30 motorcycles to NYPD

5. Volkswagen- Employees and management created 9/11 Foundation, funded with $2,000,000 for assistance to the children of victims

6. Hyundai- $300,000 to Red Cross

7. Audi- Nothing

8. BMW- Nothing

9. Fiat- Nothing

10. Honda- Nothing; despite boating the 2nd highest sales month ever in 8/01

11. Mitsubishi- Nothing

12. Nissan- Nothing

13. Porsche- Web site offered condolences

14. Subaru- Nothing

15 Toyota- Nothing, despite record sales in July and August of 2001

It's alright for these companies to take money out of our country, but apparently it's not acceptable to return some during a time of crisis

i guess that is why they have money and the 3 u.s. companies don't have shit.

So should we be bailing them out to the tune of what they contributed? Tug on my heartstrings all you want, but if we throw money at these bankruptcies-waiting-to-happen, we'll all be sorry.

Frankly, I really don't give a shit if a company is patriotic. A company's objective is to make money, and in doing so, that company will employ people. If a company makes a good product for a good price, and employs workers, what more can you ask? A burst of charity is nice but it's totally irrelevant to the issue.

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Originally Posted by Clandestino

i guess that is why they have money and the 3 u.s. companies don't have shit.

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that is one way to spin it

3 of those companies are working feverishly to get it back.....and then some.

We better hope that if we ever get into a real war that Volkswagon, BMW and Mercedes will manufacture our missile launchers, troop transports and tanks....

that is what boeing, northrop grumman, etc are for.

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Originally Posted by Nbadan

We better hope that if we ever get into a real war that Volkswagon, BMW and Mercedes will manufacture our missile launchers, troop transports and tanks....

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I'm sure all the soldiers returning home from the middle east over the past 18 years really appreciate that post Dan.

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Originally Posted by johnsmith

I'm sure all the soldiers returning home from the middle east over the past 18 years really appreciate that post Dan.

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Hes already proven he hates the millitary and this country as much as boutons so thats pointless.

Make less shitty cars and everything will get better.

:lol Seriously dude? Is it really charity if it gets thrown in peoples faces later?

Waving the bloody shirt? Seriously?

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

Make less shitty cars and everything will get better.

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Old stereotype from people who know nothing of automobiles.


Not surprising you would be one of them though.

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Originally Posted by Anti.Hero

Old stereotype from people who know nothing of automobiles.


Not surprising you would be one of them though.

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yeah, right, we don't know anything about automobiles. :lol

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Originally Posted by Anti.Hero

Old stereotype from people who know nothing of automobiles.


Not surprising you would be one of them though.

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http://z.about.com/d/mustangs/1/0/4/...dMustang-c.jpg

/Approves of this thread.

I'm proud to say that I have bought American cars my entire life with the exception of one vehicle (an acura). pwnt.

If Detroit wasn't visionless & senselessly infatuated with gas guzzlers since the 1970s, and if more Americans didn't view conservation as some sort of terrible infringement on freedom, our entanglements with the Middle East generally and Saudi Arabia specifically would have been far fewer... and 9/11 probably would not have happened.

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Originally Posted by Cry Havoc

http://z.about.com/d/mustangs/1/0/4/...dMustang-c.jpg

/Approves of this thread.

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Have an example post 1995? The auto companies lack of quality and innovation during the late 70s and entire 80s is well documented.

Have anything less than 20 years old to bitch about?

Honestly, I am getting slightly more surprised everyday reading this shit on this board and in the papers. Its as if some of you revel in the idea that you would rather buy foreign cars.

Not that you do buy foreign cars, thats not what I am saying. But that you almost seemto actually enjoy the fact that an American institution is borderline bankrupt and they are getting their due.

I ask nicely...

What the fuck is wrong with you, asshole?

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Originally Posted by Anti.Hero

Old stereotype from people who know nothing of automobiles.


Not surprising you would be one of them though.

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I own an American car.

It's not as well deigned or reliable as the foreign cars I have owned.

Not surprising that you're an idiot though.

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Originally Posted by Oh, Gee!!

I'm proud to say that I have bought American cars my entire life with the exception of one vehicle (an acura). pwnt.

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And that is something to be proud of?

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Originally Posted by smeagol

And that is something to be proud of?

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I have to agree-- cars, like anything else should be purchased on the basis of their quality. I find it especially disingenuous when people claim that we should buy American cars for reasons of so-called patriotism. What's next? Maybe schools should replace Shakespeare's plays with the novels of Norman Mailer.... yikes.

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Originally Posted by smeagol

And that is something to be proud of?

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Why is it not something to be proud of?

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Originally Posted by Tully365

I have to agree-- cars, like anything else should be purchased on the basis of their quality. I find it especially disingenuous when people claim that we should buy American cars for reasons of so-called patriotism. What's next? Maybe schools should replace Shakespeare's plays with the novels of Norman Mailer.... yikes.

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Thats not a very good analogy at all.

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Originally Posted by DarkReign

Thats not a very good analogy at all.

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There are good american cars-- no doubt-- but my objection is to those who demand that we buy cars made in america for reasons other than quality. So I stand by the analogy... and also see your point, which I partially agree with.

How Domestic Automakers Stack Up in Bread & Butter Segments

Subcompact Sedan/Hatch

Best in class: Honda Fit
Competitive foreign: Nissan Versa
GM offering: Chevrolet Aveo. Competitive? No.*
Ford offering: N/A
Chrysler offering: N/A
*Captive import

Compact Sedan/Hatch

Best in class: Mazda3
Competitive foreign: Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla, VW Jetta/Rabbit
GM offering: Chevrolet Cobalt/Pontiac G5. Competitive? No.
GM offering: Saturn Astra. Competitive? Yes.*
Ford offering: Ford Focus. Competitive? No.**
Chrysler offering? Dodge Caliber. Competitive? No.***
***This car deserves special mention for being unusually awful.
**The European version is awesome.
*Captive import.

Midsize Sedan

Best in class: Chevrolet Malibu
Competitive foreign: Honda Accord, Nissan Altima, Hyundai Sonata, Mazda6
GM offering: See above.
GM offering: Pontiac G6. Competitive? No.*
GM offering: Saturn Aura. Competitive? No.*
Ford offering: Ford Fusion/Mercury Milan. Competitive? Yes.**
Chrysler offering: Chrysler Sebring. Competitive? No.***
*Even though the cars are mechanically identical to the Malibu, they somehow manage to be inferior.
** Made in Mexico.
***This is possibly the worst new car available for sale in the U.S.

Full-Size Sedan

Best in class: Nissan Maxima
Competitive foreign: Hyundai Azera
GM offering: Chevrolet Impala. Competitive? No.
GM offering: Pontiac G8. Competitive? Yes.*
GM offering: Buick LaCrosse. Competitive? No.
Ford offering: Ford Taurus. Competitive? Yes.
Chrysler offering: Chrysler 300/Dodge Charger. Competitive? No.
*Captive import.

Small Crossover

Best in class: Toyota RAV4
Competitive foreign: Honda CR-V, Nissan Rogue, VW Tiguan
GM offering: Chevrolet Equinox. Competitive? No.*
GM offering: Saturn VUE. Competitive? Yes.
Ford offering: Ford Escape. Competitive? Yes.
Chrysler offering: Jeep Compass/Jeep Patriot. Competitive? No.**
*Engine made in China
**This car deserves special mention for being unusually awful.

Midsize/large Crossover

Best in class: (tie) Toyota Highlander, Mazda CX-9
Competitive foreign: Honda Pilot, Nissan Murano, Hyundai Santa Fe
GM offering: Chevrolet Traverse/Saturn Outlook/GMC Acadia. Competitive? Yes.
Ford offering: Ford Edge. Competitive? Yes.
Ford offering: Ford Flex. Competitive? Yes.
Chrysler offering: Dodge Nitro/Jeep Liberty. Competitive? No.*
*This car deserves special mention for being unusually awful.

Minivan

Best in class: Honda Odyssey
GM offering: N/A
Ford offering: N/A
Chrysler offering: Dodge Caravan/Chrysler T&C Competitive? No.

Commentary:

The domestic automakers struggle to make good small cars. In the subcompact segment, most don't try. As vehicles get larger, the domestics become more competitive. GM makes the best midsize sedan in the Chevy Malibu. GM and Ford make good crossovers.

Some of the better GM/Ford products are captive imports.

Chrysler makes terrible products almost all across the board. Most of their vehicles would not be competitive against imports from 1999, much less 2009.

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Originally Posted by smeagol

And that is something to be proud of?

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you're right--I shoulda bought a Kaiser, or a Rastrojero pickup.

The whole New Car Industry is always a conundrum for me generally when it comes to debates like this one. I've never purchased a new car and I never will, simply because new cars are a terrible investment. My oldest friend is a complete car nut, and buys a new car every few years, so I do understand the appeal of it... but for me, it just seems like an unnecessary waste of money. I drive an '87 Mercedes that I bought at a car auction for $3200. It runs like a dream, and its original list price when new was $50,000.

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Originally Posted by Clandestino

that is what boeing, northrop grumman, etc are for.

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So instead of making planes, missiles, and satellites you'd rather they made jeeps, troop-transports, and heavy artillery....idiot...

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Originally Posted by Nbadan

So instead of making planes, missiles, and satellites you'd rather they made jeeps, troop-transports, and heavy artillery....idiot...

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I believe most of those defense contractors manufacture land-based systems as well as the aerospace stuff. Boeing, Northrup Grumman, Lockheed, GD, etc. Clandestino was correct. You must be thinking of World War II.

The Fit is an awesome car and its pretty damn cheap. Too bad GM can't compete with it.

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Originally Posted by Tully365

The whole New Car Industry is always a conundrum for me generally when it comes to debates like this one. I've never purchased a new car and I never will, simply because new cars are a terrible investment. My oldest friend is a complete car nut, and buys a new car every few years, so I do understand the appeal of it... but for me, it just seems like an unnecessary waste of money. I drive an '87 Mercedes that I bought at a car auction for $3200. It runs like a dream, and its original list price when new was $50,000.

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Have you ever dated a girl and been forced to hang out with her "old friends"?

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Originally Posted by Anti.Hero

Old stereotype from people who know nothing of automobiles.


Not surprising you would be one of them though.

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exactly. american cars really arent of shitty quality. dumbasses just think they are. prove to me that american cars are made less reliable?

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Originally Posted by Tully365

If Detroit wasn't visionless & senselessly infatuated with gas guzzlers since the 1970s, and if more Americans didn't view conservation as some sort of terrible infringement on freedom, our entanglements with the Middle East generally and Saudi Arabia specifically would have been far fewer... and 9/11 probably would not have happened.

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doesnt chevy have one of the most, if not the most, vehicles in their lineup that gets over 30 mpg/hwy?

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

I own an American car.

It's not as well deigned or reliable as the foreign cars I have owned.

Not surprising that you're an idiot though.

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hmmm......well ive owned 7 american cars adn one foreign. guess which one had a shitty transmission and had a recall that the dealer fucked up and put the whole rear end together wrong? thats right. the foreign one. and it was a nissan jsut for anyone who was wondering. if foreign cars are so awesome, go to my350z.com and take alook aroudn at all the problems with the Z in particular and the company as a whole. i mean double digit transmission models on a car that is only 6 years old? really?

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Originally Posted by 4cc

+1

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i wish i was cool like you.

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Originally Posted by Clandestino

that is what boeing, northrop grumman, etc are for.

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agreed. troop transport doestn mean much bc what is going to stop us? we destryoyed all that russion crap i the first gulf war and again in this one. plus our superior air defense would take out any crap plane they try to send against us. on top of the apache tank killer not to mention the c130 gunship and the A10. i mean seriously? who do you think has better shit than us nbadan?

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Originally Posted by Nbadan

So instead of making planes, missiles, and satellites you'd rather they made jeeps, troop-transports, and heavy artillery....idiot...

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you sir are an idiot

yuo apparently know nohting about what is out there righ tnow in the current field of vehicles employed or what the enemy has either.


but keep talking big on a website and trying to make yourself feel big adn important.

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Originally Posted by Cry Havoc

http://z.about.com/d/mustangs/1/0/4/...dMustang-c.jpg

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That looks exactly like my car. It has 110k miles on it, gets 27 miles per gallon, has 225 horsepower, cool air and will probably go another 150 thousand miles. Exactly what part of that is shitty?

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Originally Posted by Obstructed_View

That looks exactly like my car. It has 110k miles on it, gets 27 miles per gallon, has 225 horsepower, cool air and will probably go another 150 thousand miles. Exactly what part of that is shitty?

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Its American, it must suck.

Clearly, the solution to Detroit's problems is to bring back the 1991 Mustang and sell people on the fact that the A/C works. Most cars don't have A/C.

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Originally Posted by Extra Stout

Clearly, the solution to Detroit's problems is to bring back the 1991 Mustang and sell people on the fact that the A/C works. Most cars don't have A/C.

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???

I haven't seen a car in years that doesn't have AC.

Must be a regional thing.

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

Must be a regional thing.

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Apparently sarcasm is too.

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Originally Posted by Extra Stout

Apparently sarcasm is too.

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so are ACs. Do you really need an AC unit up in Alaska or Wisconsin or Minnesota?

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Originally Posted by Oh, Gee!!

so are ACs. Do you really need an AC unit up in Alaska or Wisconsin or Minnesota?

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Eau Claire's Average Temperatures June-August

HIGHS

June ~ 79 degrees
July ~ 84 degrees
August ~ 82 degrees


Alaska, maybe not so much, but Wisconsin and Minnesota? Yep

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Originally Posted by Extra Stout

Apparently sarcasm is too.

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Good one Stout.





Although...
http://www.gloomies.com/sarcasm.jpg
That applies if you blue the text too.

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Originally Posted by jochhejaam

Temperatures June-August

HIGHS

June ~ 79 degrees
July ~ 84 degrees
August ~ 82 degrees

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That would be heaven IMO

Until its -10 in January.

Give me my 100 degrees in August anyday over that shit.

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Originally Posted by MannyIsGod

Until its -10 in January.

Give me my 100 degrees in August anyday over that shit.

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I am originally from Northern Minnesota and I agree with you whole heartedly in this instance.

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Originally Posted by MannyIsGod

Until its -10 in January.

Give me my 100 degrees in August anyday over that shit.

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You in Michigan, yet?

So American cars are much better, it's just that no one knows it but you guys.

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

So American cars are much better, it's just that no one knows it but you guys.

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yeah, i don't get it. every american made car i've owned turned into a pumpkin.

every american made car.

I've owned three American cars and two foreign. The American cars were the ones with shitty wiring and oil pressure problems, and they were the ones that broke down while I was driving them. The GM car was the worst.

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

So American cars are much better, it's just that no one knows it but you guys.

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No, thats not what I am implying at all.

What I am saying is I find it disturbing that some here and a few Southern politicians almost enjoy the fall of the American auto industry and embrace foreign companies as a viable replacement for American manufacturing.

Thats fine you buy foreign cars. Its your money, its your decision, do what you want. But the bashing of the automotive companies goes waaaaaaay beyond just bashing the management and executive board in most of the comments I hear at Congressional hearings.

And to hear an American politician from Alabama sing the praises of foreign industry as a viable replacement in domestic borders is fucking scary.

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Originally Posted by DarkReign

No, thats not what I am implying at all.

What I am saying is I find it disturbing that some here and a few Southern politicians almost enjoy the fall of the American auto industry and embrace foreign companies as a viable replacement for American manufacturing.

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Great, then In wasn't referring to you.

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Thats fine you buy foreign cars. Its your money, its your decision, do what you want. But the bashing of the automotive companies goes waaaaaaay beyond just bashing the management and executive board in most of the comments I hear at Congressional hearings.

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That's pretty much what I have limited it to.

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And to hear an American politician from Alabama sing the praises of foreign industry as a viable replacement in domestic borders is fucking scary.

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Well, he's from Alabama.

Cars I've bought:

1) A GM. It was fun and got decent gas mileage. The first month, loose wiring in the engine compartment made the car randomly shut off while driving. I caused a traffic jam once when this happened on an Interstate in a construction zone. The dealership kept the car for three weeks and couldn't figure it out until they called in a GM repair specialist from Michigan.

The dashboard plastic shrunk and cracked within six months. Pieces of trim from the door panel frequently came off in my hand. I kept epoxy on hand to tack them back in place. The brake rotors warped within three months. The radio burned out in nine months. The dashboard lights burned out in one year. The power window motors quit between nine and eighteen months.

Two years into owning it, Tropical Storm Allison flooded it and my insurance totaled it.

Grade: F

2) A Ford. Bland and boring. Gets slightly less decent gas mileage. Ran for three years without trouble. Had to replace two CV's and three sets of wheel bearing within six months after an oblivious soccer mom in Dallas ran me off the road with her Expedition. That's not the car's fault. The transmission started sticking at 60,000 miles. A local repair shop knew a way to lubricate it, and it has worked ever since. Parts of the cooling system are made of cheap plastic. These have tended to fail and need replacement. The OEM spark plug wires corroded quickly. The rear drum brakes groan like a school bus even though they work fine and have plenty of material left. The front discs squeak even with plenty of pad, unless I have them greased once a month.

The air conditioner has a loose wire I haven't bothered to fix, so the A/C works about half the time.

I've had it seven years. It has 130,000 miles and runs fine. If I go easy on the gas, it can give me 26 miles a gallon.

Grade: C

3) A Mazda. An absolute blast to drive. Gets good gas mileage when I drive it (my wife takes the zoom-zoom literally). Had to go to the dealer once for a check engine light when my wife forgot to tighten the gas cap. The bumper doesn't quite fit right since my wife rear-ended somebody in the neighborhood, even though the repair shop "fixed" it. Needs a new rim because my wife drove over a curb.

Grade: A

My wife is hard on cars. A soccer mom caused the most expensive repair costs incurred on the Ford. This is not a scientific assessment of women drivers. YMMV.

Ford F-series and Chevy Silverado have been CONSISTENTLY the top selling vehicles in the US. In 2007, the big 3 had 10 of the top 20 selling vehicles. Just sounds like they are grossly mismanaged.


No bailout.

a few years ago i bought a pacifica because the kid was still small and we needed something bigger to haul all of our needless shit around on trips up and down the coast.

that thing is a fucking nightmare of engineering. i shit you not, every 3 weeks something would go wrong. trans, electric, front axle, AWD sync, electiric, electric.

i traded it in for practically nothing and was happy to do it.

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Originally Posted by DarkReign

No, thats not what I am implying at all.

What I am saying is I find it disturbing that some here and a few Southern politicians almost enjoy the fall of the American auto industry and embrace foreign companies as a viable replacement for American manufacturing.

Thats fine you buy foreign cars. Its your money, its your decision, do what you want. But the bashing of the automotive companies goes waaaaaaay beyond just bashing the management and executive board in most of the comments I hear at Congressional hearings.

And to hear an American politician from Alabama sing the praises of foreign industry as a viable replacement in domestic borders is fucking scary.

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A lot of people who owned a domestic vehicle sometime between 1971 and 1994 or so are left with an incorrigible visceral hatred of domestic automakers. Back then those companies made poor-quality cars, and told the customer to go shove it when he had problems. The customers would be left without a working vehicle, and out thousands of dollars. The stories of unemployed former UAW workers in Michigan shivering in unheated trailers brings them great schadenfreude.

That's most of it. Then there are some Republicans that like to see labor unions fail.

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Originally Posted by Extra Stout

A lot of people who owned a domestic vehicle sometime between 1971 and 1994 or so are left with an incorrigible visceral hatred of domestic automakers. Back then those companies made poor-quality cars, and told the customer to go shove it when he had problems. The customers would be left without a working vehicle, and out thousands of dollars. The stories of unemployed former UAW workers in Michigan shivering in unheated trailers brings them great schadenfreude.

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And thats where my generational divide begins and ends.

I got my driver's license when I was 17, that was 1997. Ive been in more than a few accidents in my life and a few required lengthy hospital stays that turned into some profitable litigation for myself when I turned 18.

The first car I bought was a 1996 Pontiac Grand Am GT (in late 1997). Lame, I know. Wish I would have done it differently, but it was a great car. These were my hard partying days of instant (but negligible) wealth. I had absolutely no problems with the vehicle at all beyond the obvious maintenance required of vehicle ownership (tires, oil, brakes, plugs, wires, etc).

I traded it in for my next vehicle in 2001 with 90k+ miles on it (bought it with less than 20k, iirc). A 2000 Ford F150 XLT. Awesome truck, 4x4, gas-guzzling behemoth that it was/is. I drove that until 2007 (sold it to my employer). Once again, no problems besides my getting stupid once and trying to "fish" my truck all cool-like in the snow, lost control and went straight up and over a fire hydrant. It blew out my passenger door, bent the frame and watching that much water pressure shoot thru the floor boards was comical in retrospect.

I bought a 2008 Ford F150 last year. Love it.

So my limited experience in car ownership has been more than satisfactory with regards to American engineering and customer service.

It must have been extremely deplorable for the timeframe you mentioned for that many Americans to vow so staunchly to never buy American again. That will be the tragedy of our manufacturing industry...grudge holding.

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That's most of it. Then there are some Republicans that like to see labor unions fail.

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Fair enough. I should have considered the source, but it irks me nonetheless. This blowhard is talking up foreign companies because they opened shop in his state. The part of the story he doesnt reveal is how the company themselves do not pay a lick in state or federal taxes with all the subsidies and tax breaks provided to them by the state politicians in their attempts to create jobs. And that those benefits are perpetual.

I think the problem with the American auto industry is a combination of both mismanagement, lazy shiftless unions, and the making of shitty gas-guzzling cars. I think I would be happy to see the auto makers in Detroit fail, not because I hate America, but because this is capitalism. We're not fucking communists...everyone seems to bash Obama for wanting to "redistribute wealth" yet people want to throw money at these auto makers.

In business, there is only one reason you go under...a shitty product that nobody wants to buy. That's exactly what's happening to the automakers in Detroit. For years they've been making shitty cars and have not wanted innovate when it comes to MPG on their cars either.

Personally my first car was a Chevy Corsica and that's my last American car I'll ever buy. If I had the money, I'd throw down for a Honda or Toyota right now. Because every mechanic I've ever known has always said that Hondas and Toyotas are the best made cars. As long as you maintain them they will last for a really long time.

http://www.forbes.com/home/2008/11/0..._1107cars.html

The recent news that Chrysler may merge with General Motors didn't come as a surprise to many, as Chrysler has been struggling for years. It can't negotiate a deal with GM fast enough to save it from going under, in large part because its poor-performing vehicles are a drag on overall sales.

It therefore shouldn't come as any surprise that when the performance of cars is examined according to their predicted reliability, recalls and rate of depreciation, Chrysler vehicles dominate the list of the poorest performers, with seven of the 10 models on our list. All the vehicles have multiple recalls, ranging from airbags to door latches, along with mediocre resale values and bottom-level reliability scores for market-research groups.

Owners of the current-model-year Dodge Avenger, for example, have had to deal with six recalls. The depreciation and true market value of Avenger only ranks at two stars (out of a possible five) in the Automotive Leasing Guide, which provides depreciation estimates for use in the automotive financing industry.

And experts see no signs of Chrysler making quality improvements across the board, because the company currently lacks the financial resources to do so. It also remains unclear if the company has the means to hang on until auto sales revive.

"I'm not sure Chrysler can weather the storm as an individual company," says Dan Edmunds, director of vehicle testing at Edmunds.com.

It's an entirely different story, however, for the two Japanese auto giants, Toyota and Honda. The best-performing cars, according to our rankings, are all made by these two carmakers, with Toyota claiming six spots and Honda four in the top 10.

In the sixth spot is the immensely popular Honda Accord. It earned the highest Insurance Institute Highway Safety crash test ratings, its predicted reliability is high and there are no recalls so far this year.

"Honda's manufacturing quality is strong, and the consumer's perception of quality is also strong," says Jonathan Banks, senior director of consulting services for Automotive Leasing Guide.

Behind the Numbers
To compile our list of 2008 best- and worst-performing cars, we looked at five factors, all pertaining to 2008 model-year vehicles: the number of recalls to date, according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) database; reliability ratings from Consumer Reports; depreciation, in the form of Automotive Leasing Guide's (ALG) star ratings; safety from the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS) crash test ratings; and fuel economy and annual fuel costs from the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency.

Fuel costs were based on AAA's national regular gas price of $2.42 and unleaded at $2.60.

Aside from a standout number of recalls, we looked specifically for below-average reliability, high depreciation and IIHS results of "marginal" or "poor" for worst performers. Of the vehicles that met at least two of these qualifications, we also looked at other factors, such as fuel efficiency and fuel cost per year of ownership, assuming 15,000 miles driven per year.

Leading the Pack
Just as Chrysler dominates the bottom of the list, Toyota reigns at the top, with six vehicles that have among the highest resale values and best reliability scores. And all of the top 10 are among the most fuel-efficient cars and SUVs on the road.

The fuel-efficient Toyota Prius hybrid tops the list with an "excellent" reliability rating, no recalls and a five-star-rated resale value. It has the highest fuel economy (46 mpg) and the lowest annual fuel cost of any car on the list ($789).

Another top performer is Toyota's Scion xD , a hatchback introduced in the 2008 model year as a replacement to the xA hatchback. The xD has an "excellent" reliability rating, no recalls and good fuel economy (28 mpg).

While the Scion is a solid performer, however, it isn't perfect. It earned an "acceptable" (second-highest) frontal crash-test rating but did score a "good" rating (highest) in side- and rear-impact crash tests. Also, its resale value is an average three stars.

Which is more attractive in buying a car: a better price or better predicted reliability? Weigh in. Add your thoughts in the Reader Comments section below.

While there are no similar cars from U.S. automakers on the top half of the list, there are bright spots for 2009 and beyond, as GM and Ford Motor both plan to bring more fuel-efficient, nicely equipped small cars like the Chevrolet Cruze and Ford Festiva to the U.S. from other countries.

"There are things in the pipeline," says Edmunds, at least for those two companies. "I just don't know if Chrysler will be around to do it."

Trailing the Pack
Chrysler has carved out for itself a big space on our list of poor-performing cars, but the automaker has plenty of company.

When gas prices topped $4 a gallon this summer, consumers dropped gas-guzzling SUVs like the Nissan Xterra (17 mpg), as sales plummeted 29.1% from January to October, compared with same period in 2007. The Xterra falls to sixth place among the worst-performing vehicles, as there have been three recalls on the car so far this year, not to mention its below-average performance in crash ratings in side (marginal) and rear (poor) tests, as well as its mediocre three-star resale value.

The Xterra's sales drop can't be chalked up to a general anti-SUV sentiment either, as the smaller Toyota Rav-4 rated fourth among best-performing cars and the Honda CR-V came in fifth. Unlike the Xterra, both cars deliver on fuel economy and resale value.

With the 2009 model year now in full swing (it kicked off Oct. 1), the 2008 model-year cars still sitting on dealer lots are loaded with incentives to make them more appealing to consumers. Chances are, says Banks, many poor-performing vehicles are among the ones with the highest incentives. But while you may save with a lower transaction price now, on a year-end deal, you're likely to be paying for it later.

"If it has a one- or two-star resale value, then it's not a great quality car," says Banks. "If it has a lot of recalls, then you may spend a lot of time in the repair shop. And when the vehicle warranty ends, you may face high repair costs."

ES that Mazda of yours is a Ford. I think.

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Originally Posted by MannyIsGod

ES that Mazda of yours is a Ford. I think.

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It is a European Ford and also a Volvo.

I had a 1977 Firebird Esprit with the factory optional V8 (350 Olds, Rochester Quadrajet.) Bought it in Germany from another GI. Drove it for six years on the Autobahn. Only changes from factory were tires, wheels, and it had all the Trans Am body parts. It would do maybe 170 MPH. The only time I was ever passed by a car at full throttle and speed for the conditions was by a Ford Sierra RS. It probably had a turbocharged Cosworth. But it was also on a steep uphill stretch of road. My car had a 2.41 rear end. 150 MPH was about 4,800 RPM. No good at the 1/4 mile, and I couldn't burn the expensive Z rated tires I put on it. Tires were expensive and only a 140 treadwear.

People may call them quadra-junks, but they are perfect on that Olds block with those large intakes. It breaths so good at high RPMs.

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Originally Posted by DarkReign

It must have been extremely deplorable for the timeframe you mentioned for that many Americans to vow so staunchly to never buy American again. That will be the tragedy of our manufacturing industry...grudge holding.

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Detroit's Failures: An Excerpt

Section A: Engineering Nightmares: Time Bombs Inflicted on an Unsuspecting Public

1) Chevrolet Vega -- aluminum foil fails to hold up as engine block material
2) Ford Pinto -- BOOM!!
3) Plymouth Voltare -- watch parts fall off as you drive off lot!
4) Oldsmobile Diesel V-8 engine -- what, you can't just take a gas engine and run diesel through it?
5) Chevrolet Citation/Pontiac Phoenix/Olds Omega/Buick Skylark -- I don't have to bolt the suspension down. I'm on break. (Also see Section E)
6) Cadillac V-8-6-4 engine -- quickly became the V-8-6-4-2-0 and stayed on zero.
7) Pontiac Fiero -- let's let the customer do the final development work for us.

Section B: Small Car Debacles: Detroit Fails Continually over 30 Years to Compete with Japan

1) Chevrolet Chevette -- the best of 1960's Brazilian engineering
2) Chevrolet Cavalier -- it was to cars what Bic was to razors
3) Chevrolet Corsica/Beretta -- except for performance, quality, ergonomics, and reliability, it was great
4) Pontiac LeMans -- a Korean car that tried and failed to be as good as a Hyundai Excel
5) Oldsmobile Achieva -- bloated 1992 attempt to mix GM '80s "Plush" with small car economy fails miserably. Looked like it wanted to tip over on one side.
6) Buick Skylark -- like Achieva, but with strange "beak" nose.

Section C: Past Their Expiration Date: What's Wrong With the Old One?

1) Dodge/Plymouth Omni -- 15 years w/o an update
2) Chrysler New Yorker -- 11 years
3) Dodge Daytona -- 10 years
4) Ford Tempo -- 11 years
5) Ford Mustang -- 15 years
6) Dodge Aries -- 9 years
7) Chevrolet Cavalier -- 13 years (1982 vintage), 11 years (1995 vintage)
8) Chevrolet Celebrity -- 9 years
9) Olds Cutlass Supreme -- 11 years
10) Chevrolet Camaro/Pontiac Firebird -- 11 years
11) Lincoln Town Car -- 10 years (1980 vintage), 12 years (current)

Section D: This is Luxury: Maybe Our Customers Are Too Stupid to Notice

1) Cadillac Cimarron -- a Chevy Cavalier with leather seats and a different grille
2) Cadillac Catera -- an Opel Omega with more decoration and extra weight
3) Chrysler LHS/New Yorker -- hopefully you won't notice the Concorde two rows down that costs $10,000 less

Section E: Badge Engineering: If Sharing Platforms is Great, Sharing Entire Cars Must Be Even Better

1) Chevy Cavalier/Pontiac Sunbird/Olds Firenza/Buick Shyhawk/Cadillac Cimarron
2) Pontiac Grand Am/Olds Cutlass Calais/Olds Toronado/Buick Skylark/Buick Somerset
3) Chevy Monte Carlo/Pontiac Grand Prix/Olds Cutlass Supreme/Buick Regal
4) Olds Cutlass Ciera/Buick Century/Chevy Celebrity/Pontiac 6000
5) Pontiac Bonneville/Olds Delta 88/Olds 98/Buick LeSabre/Buick Electra
6) Plymouth Reliant/Dodge Aries/Dodge 400/Dodge 600/Chrysler LeBaron
7) Plymouth Voyager/Dodge Caravan/Chrysler Town & Country
8) Every Single Mercury Except Maybe Two or Three
9) Dodge Intrepid/Eagle Vision/Chysler Concorde/Chrysler LHS
10) Plymouth Breeze/Dodge Stratus/Chrysler Cirrus
11) Chevrolet Trucks/GMC Trucks
12) Chevy Lumina APV/Pontiac TransSport/Olds Silhouette
13) Chevy Venture/Pontiac Montana/Buick Terraza

Section F: Whisky Tango Foxtrot

1) Pontiac Aztek -- ROTFLMAO
2) 1996 Ford Taurus -- what customers want is lots of ovals
3) GM MPV's -- what customers want is a plastic minivan that looks like a Dustbuster
4) 1992 Olds 98 -- what customers want is as much chrome as possible
5) GM's Voice Warning System -- "The door is ajar! The door is ajar!"
6) Buick Reatta -- cornered the market on slow, lousy-handling, expensive convertibles
7) Chrysler TC by Maserati -- just like a LeBaron, only you pay twice as much!
8) Ford Fusion/Freetsar/Focus/Five Hundred/Freestyle -- what customers want is lots of alliteration

double post

DarkReign, it's not a grudge, its lack of confidence and trust.

Cars aren't like restaurants. You don't buy a different one every day, week, whatever. You buy one, most people keep it for a couple years, then buy another. Say for example you buy one in the 80's and have problems. Next year or two, the next one you buy has troubles too. For about a decade, that was many peoples experience. Not of the imports had the same level or number or problems.

Again, trust.

If you buy from the same restaurant on a regular basis, then get one bad meal, you probably return. Unless you get several bad means. Get one bad car, as expensive as they are, do you buy another the same?

I've always bought American Cars and still do. Not made in America..but American cars and was strictly a Chevy man until I got a deal on a Ford Explorer.

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Originally Posted by JoeChalupa

I've always bought American Cars and still do. Not made in America..but American cars and was strictly a Chevy man until I got a deal on a Ford Explorer.

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That's funny.

I used to always prefer Ford. Since GM came out with the Duramax, and generation III engines... They are my favorite.

I don't like the Ford modular engines. Too much to go wrong. The Duramax (Izusu) and Gen III engins are simplistic, but powerful and efficient.

Never bought anything but Honda Accords.

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Originally Posted by ploto

Never bought anything but Honda Accords.

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:bang

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Originally Posted by Extra Stout

Detroit's Failures: An Excerpt

Section A: Engineering Nightmares: Time Bombs Inflicted on an Unsuspecting Public

[sic]

8) Ford Fusion/Freetsar/Focus/Five Hundred/Freestyle -- what customers want is lots of alliteration

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Well, that was extremely depressing. Did you write that yourself from memory?! If so, God damn....

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Originally Posted by DarkReign

Once again, no problems besides my getting stupid once and trying to "fish" my truck all cool-like in the snow, lost control and went straight up and over a fire hydrant. It blew out my passenger door, bent the frame and watching that much water pressure shoot thru the floor boards was comical in retrospect.

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:lol :toast Have to admire DarkReign, in the middle of a serious debate that is obviously intimately important to him, for including this self-deprecating and hilarious story.

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Originally Posted by DarkReign

Once again, no problems besides my getting stupid once and trying to "fish" my truck all cool-like in the snow, lost control and went straight up and over a fire hydrant. It blew out my passenger door, bent the frame and watching that much water pressure shoot thru the floor boards was comical in retrospect.

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At least you didn't try driving it up a telephone pole guy wire with the hydrant in your front-end!


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