Starting Five: Tim,Gooden,Bowen,Tony,Mason-that is all:lobt2:
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Starting Five: Tim,Gooden,Bowen,Tony,Mason-that is all:lobt2:
It's possible Pop goes with Bowen over Finley in the starting lineup but I don't see him inserting Gooden in place of Bonner. I think he'd go with Thomas or Oberto possibly but save Gooden for the 2nd unit with Ginobli.
Most definitely, but starting is not what I care about. Bowen just needs 30 or more minutes a night. Take it from whoever, however. Just do it. Without Bowen, this team's ceiling is somewhere inbetween finals contestant and WCF contestant.
A week ago Bowen was supposedly old, washed up, and needed to be benched....now he's supposed to be the Spurs best option as a starter?
The guy had a great game, but he's a huge liability when it comes to the offense. I like that he's being used to come off the bench and harass guys like Pierce, Allen, and possibly Kobe (in the PO)...that's his role right now and that's where he's best.
Everyone on the Spurs is a huge liability on offense these days.
If anything, the defense has stepped up tremendously. I agree that Bruce needs to start.
I just want know what did bowen do to lose his starter status, it's not like he was ever a scorer anyway. I hear Pop talk about this team not being defensively good as they were in the past. Well if you insert a guy that was not even in the rotation last year(Bonner) and a guy that is past his starter days(Finley) your not going to be a great defensive to start with.:lobt2:
Quote:
Originally Posted by __JaG__
According to you maybe, not to me.
Most definitely. I was against him ever being relegated to the bench. The best scorers can't get one easy shot, and Bruce makes sure of that when he starts. Coming off the bench, he's much less effective trying to cool down a hot superstar than just keeping them cold from the beginning.Quote:
now he's supposed to be the Spurs best option as a starter?
Does offense win the Spurs championships now?Quote:
The guy had a great game, but he's a huge liability when it comes to the offense.
Read above. When Kobe's already on a role, putting Bruce on him to cool him off is not going to work as well as Bowen on him from the tipoff. Bruce does best at cooling off players he generally doesn't guard, who aren't used to being defended by him. He's a much better early on for guys like Kobe, making sure they never get in a rhythm because when they do, not even Bowen has the ability to cool them off.Quote:
I like that he's being used to come off the bench and harass guys like Pierce, Allen, and possibly Kobe (in the PO)...that's his role right now and that's where he's best.
I agree on this. Defense wins championships. We won three titles with him starting and going to war for us for 30 minutes a game. All of a sudden saying " hes too much of a liability offensively to start" is just ludicrous. Bowen will have a bigger role come playoff time. I'm convinced Pop is just trying to get everyone ready for the playoffs. He knows what he has in Bruce.
I honestly don't even buy that Bowen is this huge liability on offense..he still makes 3s consistently, and he even adds in a mid-range J from time to time..he also has good shot selection..
we haven't seen a consistent offensive effort from both Mason and Finley at the same time..Ime doesn't help that much offensively..I don't really see how Bowen is a significant offensive liability..
we haven't even been able to score lately with Bowen on the bench, so I don't see how having him on the court will make a difference for our offense..
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by harlemheat37
:tu The earlier we get Bowen 30 minutes a game and a starting spot, the better off we'll be...he was a beast last night...I was in attendance and watched him completely destroy Paul Pierce and when he was on Allen, he had problems also..he was a monster.
Bowen does not need to start. This thread is said in jest, right?
Um..no...Bruce Bowen has started on every championship team we've had since 2003. He's a defensive monster, and can hit the 3 in clutch situations. He completely shut down Paul Pierce last night, and when he was on Ray Allen, shut him down as well, and has been doing that in clutch situations all year as well. Why would it be in jest that a team known for it's defense would start it's best defensive player?????Quote:
Originally Posted by houston spurs fan
Then why is he playing so little this year?...oh that's right, Pop's resting him for the playoffs. I think calling Bruce a "defensive monster" is a bit much. And who would you rather have shooting a 3, Bowen or Mason in the clutch. Basketball requires you to play offense and defense...Quote:
Originally Posted by Spursfan092120
I like this better, of course hoping that Manu is healthy.Quote:
Originally Posted by goodenready
:lobt2:
I couldn't see the game,but I saw the box stats. Whoever was guarding Pierce and kept him to nine points did a hell of a job.Quote:
Originally Posted by goodenready
I saw him dismantle a team by himself in the fourth quarter the other night.
If it was a couple of guys taking turns. so much the better. And Ray Allen didn't exactly kill us either although he did better than Pierce.
You must have not been a fan for very long. First off, nobody knows why Pop hasn't played Bruce much this year..that's a mystery. Bruce IS a defensive monster. I would say being up for defensive player of the year every year and when Kobe Bryant and Tracy McGrady say you're the best perimeter defender in the game is pretty damn good, if you ask me. And you tell me something..I love RMJ, but how many clutch playoff threes has Mason hit, and how many has Bruce hit. Go ahead, I'll wait...................Quote:
Originally Posted by houston spurs fan
:tuQuote:
Originally Posted by Spursfan092120
I agree start bowen
harass scorer before they can get going
defense wins
bowen
bowen
Defensive team = starting your best defender?Quote:
Originally Posted by poop
You would think. :bang
Kurt Thomas has been playing very well as of late and def think that he should be inserted into the starting 5 over bonner. KT is the only player playing with any consistency these past few games recently IMO
You're living in the past man. I agree, Bruce is a great defender, but his inept offense has finally caught up to him, and the Spurs can no longer hide him. Mason Jr. needs to be on the floor because he can knock down a 3 from anywhere on the floor not just one small area. Why do you ask me to name clutch 3 pointers when Mason Jr. hasn't had the opportunity, he's had two this season against the Suns and Celtics? What point are you trying to make when you say I haven't been a fan very long? Don't you think Pop knows what he's doing, and to say that "Bowen is not playing is a mystery" seems pretty obvious to the fans that have been watching the Spurs for a long time and have confidence in Pop...Quote:
Originally Posted by SA210
Bowen would replace Finley, not Mason. It is funny how Bruce's offense is a liability but yet Udoka gets a free pass for being worse. Bowen is useless on the bench. Starting Bowen will make the Spurs better defensively and will make our bench better with Finley.Quote:
Originally Posted by houston spurs fan
How good was the big fellas block on Paul Pierce
If we are living in the past, well in that case Finley used to be a great scorer, one problem he got old. Matt Bonner used to be a great 12th man, he's a starter now, I'll let you think about that one. :lobt2:
But we aren't living in the past.
what does that have to do with Bowen? Finley is in great shape and playing well, if he wasn't he'd be on the bench right next to Bowen.Quote:
Originally Posted by goodenready
Lets make one thing clear. The Spurs stand no chance of beating the Lakers if Kobe is being guarded by Mason, Finley, or Hill. None. The idea of bringing Bowen off the bench after Kobe has gotten into a rhythm is laughable.
Finley Scored 25 points against the Lakers-I wonder who won that game.
I agree. Bowen needs to find an offensive rhythm and know how to defend the guy he's up against early in the game.
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by dastrey
Finley and Bonner really lit it up against Boston - 7pts each
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by Spursfan092120
I'd change the C in the OP from Gooden to Bonner/Fab/KT. Gooden is too similar in his O game to Tim, he'd get in TDs way. Hope Matt can keep boarding the way he has recently, and hit half of the rest of his 3s. Then I'd be fine with him starting in the POs.
Just because a post player has a post up game doesn't mean he can't fit in with Duncan on the floor. Gooden has the ability to knock down the midrange just as well as Kurt and Bonner when Duncan is on the low block. Spurs offense has the post players in the same spots offensively except for bonner. So if Kurt and Oberto can play with Duncan, so can Gooden. I think the reason why you put Gooden with the second unit is because he's the only other big man outside of Tim that can create his own offense. Gooden just needs to find his shot selection with this team. With that I would love to see Goodens aggressiveness on the floor 25 plus minutes April 18th.Quote:
Originally Posted by Manufan909
I think Bowen should start against teams like Boston, Cleveland, etc. -- defensively oriented teams. Against a team like LA though, I think Pop has abandoned the idea of playing 5 v 4 offensively. Of course, Bowen can hit the corner 3 and some other stuff, but we all know he is an offensive liability. Against some teams we can afford that and he gives us an advantage, like with Boston, because if you can take away Pierce or Allen they are going to really struggle for points whereas LA has so many offensive weapons you have to have 5 players with offensive abilities as well or you are going to fail offensively.
I think this is compounded by the way LA plays defense. They like to put Kobe on the team's weakest jump shooter and he will leave that player and help on others, in our case, Timmy and TP. He'll do this until he gets really, really burned by the guy he left. They did this against Rondo in the Finals and its a big reason why Boston had some trouble keeping Rondo on the floor - because the help Kobe was able to give to others caused them more problems.
Now I don't mean to say Bruce shouldn't play at all against LA, but I think Pop is trying to keep a more offensively-oriented rotation out there against them. That being said, I think Bruce is invaluable against Boston and should see serious minutes against everyone but LA, and sometimes even then.
I think Pop is bringing him off the bench because Finley is bad off the bench and Pop believes Bruce is better at coming in cold and being effective.
Gooden's not ready to play major minutes yet. He's still kinda lost out there on defense.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaNu4Tres
If Bowens gonna start any series its gonna have to be against the Lakers.
Popovich and the Spurs have had a long history of making unlikely role players into an important piece of the puzzle. Bowen has been one of these pieces for a long time. With that willingness to give people a chance what makes you think Pop is making a big mistake by benching Bowen...? Don't you think that one of Popovich's stalwarts of the past must be doing something detrimental to the team to be relegated to the bench? Don't you think he might be slipping a bit and be unable to do his task on the court as effectively as in the past for Popovich, the man who gave him a shot despite his obvious offensive limitations to bench him?
I watch a fair amount of Spurs games and indeed i've seen Bowen have many average defensive games where he no longer harrasses an opponent into submission. He's not playing bad defense but he's not playing elite defense more often then now, and that is what we need from him to deserve a starting spot. He had a fantastic game against Boston but that really is the exception to the rule.
Bowen is a player that Popovich has trusted a lot in the past, and due to that I don't think he would bench him without good reason to believe it would help the team. I think that Popovich knows these particulars a little better then message board backseat drivers.
Nope Bruce needs more court time. Whether he is starting or coming in off the bench I don't care as long as he gets more court time. I'm seeing some Spurs defense out there and that is great.Quote:
Originally Posted by __JaG__
What good are those offensive players if they aren't producing on offense or playing solid defense?
If I had it my way my starting 5 for the Playoffs would be TP, Mason, Bowen, TD, and Thomas.
My starting five would be...
Tony Parker
Roger Mason
Michael Finley
Tim Duncan
Kurt Thomas
Good post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spursfan092120
I'm trying not to bash Mason Jr too much here, but all Mason has proved at this point is pretty much all Hedo did up to this point when here was here. Hedo started going cold before the playoffs and was totally useless for us when it came to money time in the playoffs.
I think Roger is a bit tougher than Hedo so I hope he can turn it around and get his shot back. He's gotta play better defense though. That is the big thing with Roger. His defense MUST improve and he can't keep reaching in a drawing stupid fouls. That is not good defense.
Roger Mason Jr. is waaaay better than Hedo when he was here...Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice009
That could work. Bench Michael and start Bruce and Roger. Michael in the second unit would help space the floor for Manu and also give Manu two solid options to pass off to. Manu can pass it off to Gooden inside or Michael outside. I think that would be a deadly combination for a second unit.Quote:
Originally Posted by dastrey
How is he way better? Mason's 3 point percentage has gone right down. Hedo was near the top in the league and then finished at .419 percent after he went cold at the end of the season. Last time I looked Roger's percentage was pretty close to what Hedo finished at.Quote:
Originally Posted by crc21209
Like I said though I think Roger is tougher than Hedo and can turn it around, but offense by itself is not enough. He's gotta get better and play smarter on the defensive end too.
You noticed how i said on April 18th not March 21st, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by VI_Massive
I disagree. I actually thought Hedo brought more than just shooting to the table when he was here. Hedo could actually finish around the rim and he played better defense.Quote:
Originally Posted by crc21209
Look at the statement in my sig...MORE BRUCE, MORE WINS-PERIOD.
Very good thought. Michael has shown that he is a professional and would keep the second squad dangerous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice009
Very dangerous. That gives Manu a good three point shooter and an inside presence. I think that will really open it up for him. If KT stays on the bench too then Manu can hit him for that mid range J. That second unit could be lethal. Let's get everyone back and do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by silverblackfan
My bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaNu4Tres
I agree with this.
Parker
Manu/Mason
Gooden
Duncan
Bowen
2nd team
Hill
Finley
thomas/oberto
udoka, bonner, vaughn sell beer.
That lineup has a good balance.Quote:
Originally Posted by SequSpur
But currently starting Bowen makes no sense. The offense will become stagnant with:
Parker
Mason
Bowen
Duncan
Bonner
Mason can't create on his own. God knows Bonner and Bowen aren't gonna create on their own. And Duncan is banged up. Finley can't create on his own either, but he give you another option from midrange. Not to mention, if anyone has watched finley over the last two seasons you realize that Finley has trouble getting into a rhythm when coming off the bench.
I agree. I think taking Finley out of the starter's role takes him pretty much out of the game. If you want anything from him, he needs to start. I think Bruce can be more effective coming off the bench than Finley. That being said, I'd like to see Bowen get more minutes and I think he will in the playoffs, except against LA, when we need as much scoring on the floor as possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by __JaG__
We need Bruce's defense against LA. He's our best perimeter defender still and can still hit open shots at the same efficiency as he's always had. If we are going to play in June Bruce will need to be a big part of it. He's been through war time and time again and has always came through. We have always won by defense. That's why I'm not giving in on some of y'alls Mike D'Antoni ways of thinking and choosing offense over defense.Quote:
Originally Posted by VI_Massive
To some of y'all who are worried about how much offense our role players bring:
Our offense is up to Tony, Tim, and Manu getting in the lane and converting at a high percentage. If those three can get inside it will open up everything for our shooters. If they can't get inside then we will be in trouble and will have to rely on taking contested jumpshots most likely at the latter end of the shot clock.
And another thing, when our offense sputters its not because of the role players. It's because of Tim, Tony, and Manu relying on the jump shot too much or over dribbling which Manu and Tony can be guilty of at times.
Trying to justify on which role player should start for offense is irrelevant. When all of them basically bring one thing to the table effectively and efficiently and thats just spot up shooting.
Manu isn't playing. Tim isn't Tim. Tony can only do so much.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaNu4Tres
"Trying to justify on which role player should start for offense is irrelevant. "
The Spurs have always counted on different role players to step up, so i'm not sure how it's irrelevant.
In past seasons with a healthy Tim and Manu the Spurs could get away with starting Bruce...this is not the case this season. Sending Finley to the bench practically makes him nonexistent. And considering he and/or RMJ can throw in 15 pts on any given night, taking him out of the lineup does not increase our chances against a high scoring team like the Lakers.
I realize Bowen played well the other day, but playing him 30 mpg is not the answer to all the Spurs problems. I'm all for Bowen getting more minutes...but only when the matchups call for it.
I agree our D has to be tough or we have no shot and I think Pop has been trying a balancing act of injecting more offense while keeping the D strong. To achieve this he's been starting and playing more offensively-oriented players like Finley and Bonner and trying to squeeze as much D out of them as he can while bring the shut down D guys off the bench.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaNu4Tres
I think the problem with Bowen playing heavy minutes against LA is that it allows whoever is guarding him (likely Kobe) to cheat off and double elsewhere or play the passing lanes for steals. They can and will leave Bruce alone until he hits a number of the open shots he'll have, and this may or may not happen. Against LA I think we have to play 5 guys who have to be guarded so we aren't giving LA an extra defender to roam around and strip Timmy, snag passes etc.
Bruce obviously needs to play some against LA, but they will leave open someone whose offense they don't respect and this will hurt us by improving their weakness -- defense.
The other thing is that Bowen can't shut down Kobe (no one can) like he did Pierce the other night. If Kobe's going to get his anyway, and Bruce's presence on the floor will allow LA to basically have an extra defender on the court, its tough to justify his minutes.
Exactly. Bowen was killer against Boston because he can shut down Pierce and they really struggle to score without Pierce. In other situations, he's not as useful.Quote:
Originally Posted by __JaG__
Let's all be honest here. The solution of all solutions will be a 90-100 percent Manu, Tim and Tony.Quote:
Originally Posted by __JaG__
You brought up a good point on how Finley and Mason could give us 15 points on any given night. I understand Bruce can't do that as much. But I do think some of that has to do with Bruce having a tighter shot selection. I think if Manu Tim and Tony get inside the defense Bruce can easily give us 12-15 points by soley spot up shooting. Let's agree Finley and Mason's shot selection can be shaky every other game.
And I'll tell you this. Against the Lakers ( which is most of my opinion is aimed against) they will hedge or go over on the pick and roll for Mason and make him try to penetrate. I guarantee you the open looks you see Mason getting against the inferior teams in the league being lazy and going under on the pick and roll WON'T be there against the Lakers/ Cavs/ Celtics. If they are it will only happen very very few times. That's why I say justifying on which role players could bring more offense is irrelevant against great teams.
But Mason is a guy who has to be guarded. LA simply won't guard Bowen and his guy will wander and help like they did on Rondo in last year's finals. They'll do this until Bowen hits several shots and that may or may not happen. But Mason and Finley both have to be guarded.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaNu4Tres
I think this is what has to happen against the Lakers if we want to win regardless of which role player should see the floor.
- Health
- Limit their second chance opportunities. Meaning REBOUND.
- No Small ball
- Force Kobe baseline on side pick and rolls. Not middle.
- Get in the paint offensively
- Play the drive on Odom, meaning play off him and try to make him shoot.
I notice this too whenever Kobe is guarding Bowen on the weakside of the ball. Especially when a long skip pass to the corner is the only solution to keep Kobe honest. But if you watch Kobe he usually always plays that way when he's guarding a guy off the ball especially when he's on the weakside. It's not just Bowen. But I do understand what your saying.Quote:
Originally Posted by VI_Massive
Obviously a lot of things have to go right for the Spurs to have a chance against the Lakers. But finding the best way to get the most production from your role players is one of those things. I just don't see a scenario where starting Bowen gives the Spurs a better chance to win with the players they have available right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaNu4Tres
Well I think having your best perimeter defender on Kobe and making him work for every shot will help your chances. I mean since Kobe takes the most shots for the Lakers. I think that makes some sense.
I agree...that's why he should get increased minutes against Kobe. But taking Finley out of the series by not starting him makes absolutely no sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaNu4Tres
Quote:
Originally Posted by __JaG__
Just because he's not starting doesn't mean Finley all of a sudden will become a horrid shooter and inferior contributor. There's a lot of times Finley starts and lays an egg out there. So saying how Finley needs to start in order for him to make shots doesn't really make sense in my eyes. Finley wouldn't be taking out of the series either he would still get 25 minutes a game.
Wrong.
I couldn't disagree more. Bowen can start ahead of Finley and Michael can produce off the bench. He just hasn't been on the bench long enough to show that he can do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by VI_Massive
If you want to keep starting Finley I guess it can still work only if Bruce gets a lot more minutes than he has been getting earlier this season.
Finley hasn't been on the bench that long. I think he is comfortable enough now to do it. Usually Pop would have him on the bench and the he'd quickly start him again because he thought he wasn't producing enough. Finley has gone on longer droughts where he's been starting and Pop let him work through them.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaNu4Tres
I think with Manu and Gooden, Finley off the bench will work.
As far as Bowen I do believe Pop has been saving his legs for the stretch run his court time will stat to increase, and while most won't agree if Hill isn't ready to contribute as the back up PG Vaugh needs to be implemented in the rotation because the Mason at PG isn't workin. And as far as starting line ups I'm gonna say Parker, Mason, Bowen, Thomas, and Franchise. With a second unit of Hill, Ginobili, Finley, Gooden, and Oberto. With Bonner seeing time when it is a favorable match up.
+ 1Quote:
Originally Posted by crc21209
you can replace Mason with finley, but having KT with Bowen in the starting five is a good thing IMO. don't let the opponent get hot in the beginning of the game. Tony usually scores a lot in the first too. good way to start a game, with manu waiting to provide his usual offense from the bench.
To end the game:
Tony/Manu/Tim are a lock and Bowen should be there most of the time. and even if he seems the weaker big of the team this year, i wouldn't mind Oberto in clutch time. He knows that kind of situation and alwayd responded well.
Most of people trust in new guys. i still think bowen or oberto knows how to wim better than any of them.
I agree with you anyone but Bonner starting in the Playoffs, I said something about Bonner not starting a week ago and they lock the thread. But its good to see that I am not the only one that wants to see Bonner getting less minutes and Bowen, Kurt and Thomas picking up a few more minutes in the playoffs. I think in the playoffs your big man should be down low get dirty, physical giving hard fouls, and rebounding not running out on the wing to shoot 3's.Quote:
Originally Posted by loveforthegame
I don't think it matters if Bowen starts or comes off the bench as long as he gets a lot more minutes during the playoffs which I hope he does. As for Manu I don't know how much I really like even Manu coming off the bench anymore. After coming off an injury plagued season like this I think I'd prefer him to start and play with Tim and Tony as much as possible. Knowing Manu and how he plays he's going to come off the bench and try to do too much thinking he needs to do it all and either make a lot of mistakes (like the last time he came back from injury) or risk another injury again. I think he needs to start playing with Tim and Tony more and let the game come back to him instead of over doing it.