Could Losing In the First Round Help in The Long Run?

This team obviously has lots of glaring problems. They want to think of themselves as a potentially top defensive team, yet guys who can't guard anyone (Bonner, Mason, Finley) are getting lots of minutes. There's only two players on the roster who can create their own shots, and both seem to be wearing down from carrying the load. That's just the tip of the iceberg.


Here's the thing: if the Spurs lose in the first round, maybe Pop and RC will finally realize how much change is needed.

On the other hand, if the Spurs overachieve and win a series or two, maybe they will think that all the Spurs need is a healthy Manu.


Last year, it should have been apparent how badly the team needed younger, athletic, more talented players. But since they managed to will their way to a Game 7 victory over New Orleans, and since a hobbled Manu provided a good excuse for why the Spurs lost to the Lakers, all of the growing weaknesses were ignored during the offseason.


I don't have all the solutions, but at they very least I hope the Spurs realize the following:

1. Manu Ginobili is not going to be what he once was. In addition to all of his nagging injuries, he's getting old. He'll be 33 in 2010. Wings who rely on athleticism noticeably slip around that age, even if they aren't chronically injured like Manu.

2. We're not going anywhere with Matt Bonner starting. Timmy needs someone who can rebound and is sufficiently athletic to help him out.

It's dooable.

I say we just let everybody go and sign Lebron and Dwight Howard. I mean, that's the future right there. Make it so, Holt!

And rest. :)

does not help
why
more home games =more money

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Originally Posted by ducks

does not help
why
more home games =more money

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Since when?

Someone better give me a bailout over this shit.

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Could Losing In the First Round Help in The Long Run?

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No because there is no "long run". Each of Duncan's remaining seasons, including this one, needs to be used going all out for a championship. There's no time for "lessons" or whatever.

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Originally Posted by vednam

This team obviously has lots of glaring problems. They want to think of themselves as a potentially top defensive team, yet guys who can't guard anyone (Bonner, Mason, Finley) are getting lots of minutes. There's only two players on the roster who can create their own shots, and both seem to be wearing down from carrying the load. That's just the tip of the iceberg.


Here's the thing: if the Spurs lose in the first round, maybe Pop and RC will finally realize how much change is needed.

On the other hand, if the Spurs overachieve and win a series or two, maybe they will think that all the Spurs need is a healthy Manu.


Last year, it should have been apparent how badly the team needed younger, athletic, more talented players. But since they managed to will their way to a Game 7 victory over New Orleans, and since a hobbled Manu provided a good excuse for why the Spurs lost to the Lakers, all of the growing weaknesses were ignored during the offseason.


I don't have all the solutions, but at they very least I hope the Spurs realize the following:

1. Manu Ginobili is not going to be what he once was. In addition to all of his nagging injuries, he's getting old. He'll be 33 in 2010. Wings who rely on athleticism noticeably slip around that age, even if they aren't chronically injured like Manu.

2. We're not going anywhere with Matt Bonner starting. Timmy needs someone who can rebound and is sufficiently athletic to help him out.

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A Lakers fan who is also a Spurs fan.....I like it!:toast

Good points! I do think a healthy manu, TD and TP may have one more championship run in them but the Spurs need to start transitioning so the next generation of players will be ready to take over as TP gets older & TD and Manu are no longer around....that's easier said that done

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Originally Posted by vednam

They want to think of themselves as a potentially top defensive team, yet guys who can't guard anyone (Bonner, Mason, Finley) are getting lots of minutes.

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I agree with this 100 percent.

More Bowen and Hill, more Kurt Thomas/Drew Gooden, cut Finley and Mason's minutes to just 25-28 a game, and cut Bonner's minutes to 2-5.

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Originally Posted by timvp

No because there is no "long run". Each of Duncan's remaining seasons, including this one, needs to be used going all out for a championship. There's no time for "lessons" or whatever.

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Do you really think the Spurs can win it all this year? I simply see no way they can get past the Lakers or Cavs, and they'd be fortunate to even get that far in the first place. For a four time champion team, I would think being eliminated is being eliminated. There's no reason to feel good for advancing a few rounds. Accordingly, this season is already a lost cause and "now" is now "next year".


I feel really sorry for Tim Duncan. If the Spurs had reloaded just a bit in the summer of 2007, he'd be looking to get his 6th ring right now instead of wondering whether he'll ever have another crack at a title. It's sad to watch such a great player out there playing hurt, playing his heart out with such little help.

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Originally Posted by vednam

Do you really think the Spurs can win it all this year?

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Before the playoffs started, I thought the Spurs had a 1-3% chance to win it all. I still think that's pretty accurate. So yeah, I'm not willing to concede defeat when there's still a chance.

Soon, a 1-3% chance at winning a championship will seem like a fantastic opportunity.

The team should worry about what's in their control now. Not try to test fate and the unforeseeable future which is outside of their control.

Pop and Co. are in charge of their own destiny today, they don't need to rationalize circumstances.

I should clarify:

I'm NOT saying the team should purposely tank or lose. I'm sure they will try their best, as they should.


I'm speaking for an outsider's perspective, as in what would be best to actually happen.

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Originally Posted by timvp

Before the playoffs started, I thought the Spurs had a 1-3% chance to win it all. I still think that's pretty accurate. So yeah, I'm not willing to concede defeat when there's still a chance.

Soon, a 1-3% chance at winning a championship will seem like a fantastic opportunity.

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Duncan will still be a superstar next year, IMO. The Spurs don't have to sit around and do nothing. If they surround him with better role players, next year could be a 50% chance (not 3% or less).


For the Spurs to win this year, I think the following would have to happen:

1. The Blazers would have to advance to the second round and miraculously beat the Lakers. Then they would have to lose all of the momentum from that series so that the Spurs could beat them.

2. The Cavs would somehow have to get upset but the Magic or Celtics.


If neither of the above two, a major injury must occur to someone on the Lakers or Cavs.


That's just too many break to hope for, IMO.

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Originally Posted by timvp

No because there is no "long run". Each of Duncan's remaining seasons, including this one, needs to be used going all out for a championship. There's no time for "lessons" or whatever.

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Honestly I don't think the spurs with their current roster as it is will win a title in Duncan's remaining years. I look at 1-12 and I see too many glaring holes that need to be fixed and that could take possible 2 years to fix. This team is like that '01 team they have too many old vetrans who are over the hill along with a bunch of mediocre role players. Outside of Duncan,Parker,Ginobilli,Mason,Gooden, the rest of the team is filled with trash. It will take about 2 years to fix all these holes and by then Duncan will be 35. Next year the spurs will have to develop Ian, along with giving Hill more minutes, plus add few young guns.

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Originally Posted by vednam

This team obviously has lots of glaring problems. They want to think of themselves as a potentially top defensive team, yet guys who can't guard anyone (Bonner, Mason, Finley) are getting lots of minutes. There's only two players on the roster who can create their own shots, and both seem to be wearing down from carrying the load. That's just the tip of the iceberg.


Here's the thing: if the Spurs lose in the first round, maybe Pop and RC will finally realize how much change is needed.

On the other hand, if the Spurs overachieve and win a series or two, maybe they will think that all the Spurs need is a healthy Manu.


Last year, it should have been apparent how badly the team needed younger, athletic, more talented players. But since they managed to will their way to a Game 7 victory over New Orleans, and since a hobbled Manu provided a good excuse for why the Spurs lost to the Lakers, all of the growing weaknesses were ignored during the offseason.


I don't have all the solutions, but at they very least I hope the Spurs realize the following:

1. Manu Ginobili is not going to be what he once was. In addition to all of his nagging injuries, he's getting old. He'll be 33 in 2010. Wings who rely on athleticism noticeably slip around that age, even if they aren't chronically injured like Manu.

2. We're not going anywhere with Matt Bonner starting. Timmy needs someone who can rebound and is sufficiently athletic to help him out.

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Excellent post.

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Originally Posted by vednam

I should clarify:

I'm NOT saying the team should purposely tank or lose. I'm sure they will try their best, as they should.


I'm speaking for an outsider's perspective, as in what would be best to actually happen.

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I see. I don't know if a wake up call would make a difference. I don't think it'd take a first round exit for Pop and Co. to realize Bonner isn't starting material, and the over-reliance on a the Spurs core has run it's course.

It might be true that we've had good for too long to see our holes...but it might also be true that we need to keep building upon our results, and not risk taking a step back in results (a first round exit) which encourages more excellence.

You can argue the other way that a first round exit might cause the FO to panic/knee jerk over what isn't an immediate decline, but another team hiccup like in 2006.
Where one adjustment or shift in focus would bring us back to the head of the pack with the Lakers.

I personally don't think there'd be any good in a first round exit, just like I personally have a problem with "missing the playoffs for a draft pick" and "blowing up a team" for financial purposes is a cop out.
Losing sucks period.

great thread, and it's something to think about..

I don't think this is the case though..I think going 2 years without winning a title will be enough for change, since it's pretty clear that Manu is no longer a reliable option..

this is also a very fixable problem, so we definitely have a good shot at re-tooling in the off-season, assuming the FO realizes that we need a change(there's no way they don't)..we have multiple free agents, and multiple expiring contracts at the end of next year..

there should definitely be some moves made, there's no excuse to stand pat..

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Originally Posted by timvp

No because there is no "long run". Each of Duncan's remaining seasons, including this one, needs to be used going all out for a championship. There's no time for "lessons" or whatever.

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I agree.

You know i can understand the age/athleticism reasons going against Manu but fans need to keep in mind that when he returns he'll be the freshest he's ever been in quite awhile. He's pretty much had extended rests in between a couple of comebacks since the olympics. Oh and we did see the Manu of old in february up until the allstar break so i think him getting back to his old self for atleast next season is a very good possibility.

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Originally Posted by timvp

No because there is no "long run". Each of Duncan's remaining seasons, including this one, needs to be used going all out for a championship. There's no time for "lessons" or whatever.

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What a depressing thing to read before I've had my morning coffee.

Yes this team undoubtably needs to get rid of the old and bring in the new. Our old vets can only overachieve so long in our Spurs defensive system. We need some fresh legs, some youth, and some athleticism.

My question is do teams ever go over the salary cap and take on luxary taxes for the sake of the team? We all know that Duncan only has a few more good years left in him more then likely so why not go all out and do w/e we can these next few years. I'm tired of the Spurs FO being all fuckin cheap. They got 4 championships from Duncan, it's time to give somethin back and take the extra hit to the wallet for the sake of making one last good run at another Championship.

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Originally Posted by vednam

I should clarify:

I'm NOT saying the team should purposely tank or lose. I'm sure they will try their best, as they should.


I'm speaking for an outsider's perspective, as in what would be best to actually happen.

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Its best the spurs get swept in the first round and get it over with. They are not winning this year. This season was lost when there was no move to upgrade the frontline.

Maybe an early elimination will hit them in the head that they need to upgrade the overall talent of the team and get some younger more athletic players instead of giving big minutes to robots and dinosaurs.

I agree with all your points.

The Spurs haven't learned anything since 2006, so why the fuck would it be better for them to lose? By that rationale, it would have been better for them to miss the playoffs altogether. Once you're here, you try to win. Period.

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Originally Posted by Obstructed_View

The Spurs haven't learned anything since 2006, so why the fuck would it be better for them to lose? By that rationale, it would have been better for them to miss the playoffs altogether. Once you're here, you try to win. Period.

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Right, it would have better to not even make the playoffs and get a lottery pick. Maybe they can get lucky again with a top 3 pick because thats about the only way they add young talent.

The Spurs don't have any problem acquiring young talent. The NBA is full of former young Spurs. Hell, the playoffs are full of former young Spurs.

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Originally Posted by vednam

Last year, it should have been apparent how badly the team needed younger, athletic, more talented players. But since they managed to will their way to a Game 7 victory over New Orleans, and since a hobbled Manu provided a good excuse for why the Spurs lost to the Lakers, all of the growing weaknesses were ignored during the offseason.

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Regardless the outcome of this POs, Spurs front office know that moves need to be made, but I don't think the 'weaknesses' were ignored. SA has added some young talent with lots of potential; it's just a matter of knowing how to develop that talent. The problem has been that in some cases (Mahinmi's injury, Splitter's contract with TAU) unforseen issues have hurt their efforts to improve the roster, or young players (Hill) don't get the minutes they need/deserve to gain confidence on their game.

Relevance is not determined by championships. A ring isn't the only thing to fight for. You won't have a chance at a ring every year, but as a fan, you can only hope that your team exceeds expectations. Whether it is simply making the playoffs, winning a series, or winning a championship, there are a lot of things to cheer for as a fan. Whatever it is, you can't give up on your team.

If Spurs fans are going to act like a championship is the only thing to fight for, I don't know what the future holds for the Spurs in San Antonio. Think about Golden State fans against Dallas in 07. Did they think they were winning a ring? No. But they still supported their team. Seeing Game 1's empty stands made me think that Spurs fans don't realize that supporting your team comes at all times, whether they are the best or they are the worst. Forgetting that is forgetting the spirit of basketball, and neglecting the heart and desire of all the players that are taken for granted.

Enjoy this season. Memories will be made regardless of whether we win or lose. Do you want to be the guy cheering for the Spurs or cheering against them? I know what I want to be. A Spurs fan, now and forever.

:flag:

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Originally Posted by the crimson blur

Relevance is not determined by championships. A ring isn't the only thing to fight for. You won't have a chance at a ring every year, but as a fan, you can only hope that your team exceeds expectations. Whether it is simply making the playoffs, winning a series, or winning a championship, there are a lot of things to cheer for as a fan. Whatever it is, you can't give up on your team.

If Spurs fans are going to act like a championship is the only thing to fight for, I don't know what the future holds for the Spurs in San Antonio. Think about Golden State fans against Dallas in 07. Did they think they were winning a ring? No. But they still supported their team. Seeing Game 1's empty stands made me think that Spurs fans don't realize that supporting your team comes at all times, whether they are the best or they are the worst. Forgetting that is forgetting the spirit of basketball, and neglecting the heart and desire of all the players that are taken for granted.

Enjoy this season. Memories will be made regardless of whether we win or lose. Do you want to be the guy cheering for the Spurs or cheering against them? I know what I want to be. A Spurs fan, now and forever.

:flag:

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When you have Duncan and 4 titles with him on the roster the bar is set and that bar is championships because the window for titles will close when he is gone.

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Originally Posted by rascal

When you have Duncan and 4 titles with him on the roster the bar is set and that bar is championships because the window for titles will close when he is gone.

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I don't understand the argument here. If simply having Duncan gives you a chance to win it all--and it does in my opinion; I agree with LJ's 1-3% projection--then why would you quit on the Spurs before they even have had a chance to fight? Isn't there more pride in a deep playoff run than a quick first round exit?

Do you guys think that Timmy's 3 pointer against PHX was a waste? That it ultimately led to nothing? Winning is the goal, regardless of the circumstance.

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Originally Posted by the crimson blur

I don't understand the argument here. If simply having Duncan gives you a chance to win it all--and it does in my opinion; I agree with LJ's 1-3% projection--then why would you quit on the Spurs before they even have had a chance to fight? Isn't there more pride in a deep playoff run than a quick first round exit?

Do you guys think that Timmy's 3 pointer against PHX was a waste? That it ultimately led to nothing? Winning is the goal, regardless of the circumstance.

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By having Duncan they have a chance to win it all but they need to surround him with enough talent to win it. Especially now that the Lakers have become a force again since the Gasol trade. The spurs need to upgrade their roster to keep pace with the Lakers, they haven't done that.


Duncan is the cornerstone franchise player that you build around. You need to start with a player like Duncan to even have a chance to win it all, then surround him with the right complimentary players.

The spurs are not just playing for pride. They are better than just seeking pride. Atlanta, Denver and Portland are playing for pride and a playoff round or two victory is a big success for those young up and coming teams. The spurs are beyond playing just for pride.

Losing in the wcf again is no great achievement for the spurs anymore and it would have been better for the spurs to have a top 3 lottery pick if they were to get lucky again then losing to the Lakers in the wcf again.

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Originally Posted by rascal

By having Duncan they have a chance to win it all but they need to surround him with enough talent to win it. Especially now that the Lakers have become a force again since the Gasol trade. The spurs need to upgrade their roster to keep pace with the Lakers, they haven't done that.


Duncan is the cornerstone franchise player that you build around. You need to start with a player like Duncan to even have a chance to win it all, then surround him with the right complimentary players.

The spurs are not just playing for pride. They are better than just seeking pride. Atlanta, Denver and Portland are playing for pride and a playoff round or two victory is a big success for those young up and coming teams. The spurs are beyond playing just for pride.

Losing in the wcf again is no great achievement for the spurs anymore and it would have been better for the spurs to have a top 3 lottery pick if they were to get lucky again then losing to the Lakers in the wcf again.

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You don't think the Spurs play for pride? You think Tim Duncan would rather tank a season than go to the WCF again? :lol

I hate to repeat myself, but you are "forgetting the spirit of basketball, and neglecting the heart and desire of all the players that are taken for granted."

And, also, as a fan, you are forgetting how hard it is to win a series in the NBA. You speak of making it to the WCF as if it is no achievement at all. Whole franchises (e.g. the Kings) talk about their golden age as that which they made the conference finals. This goes back to my point that Spurs fans are acting spoiled.

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Originally Posted by Summers

What a depressing thing to read before I've had my morning coffee.

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It's even more depressing after I've had my coffee and have sobered up.........

The OP has some really good points, and overall it's a well thought out "what if" . While timvp has a good point, I dont think the OP meant long run as in 5-6 years from now. I think he meant long run as in the next few years with Timmy still in the mix.

I also believe, just as the OP does, that the FO was deluded into believing that the team was ok after last seasons playoff performance. It was obvious to most though, that the Spurs just weren't getting any production consistently outside of the big three.

While younger legs on the perimeter would be a welcome sight, I would settle for a grizzled veteran in the middle to compliment Timmy for his remaining years.(read: Camby, Sheed)

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Originally Posted by the crimson blur

You don't think the Spurs play for pride? You think Tim Duncan would rather tank a season than go to the WCF again? :lol

I hate to repeat myself, but you are "forgetting the spirit of basketball, and neglecting the heart and desire of all the players that are taken for granted."

And, also, as a fan, you are forgetting how hard it is to win a series in the NBA. You speak of making it to the WCF as if it is no achievement at all. Whole franchises (e.g. the Kings) talk about their golden age as that which they made the conference finals. This goes back to my point that Spurs fans are acting spoiled.

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FYI, you're talking to a Laker fan.

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Originally Posted by Agloco

It's even more depressing after I've had my coffee and have sobered up.........

The OP has some really good points, and overall it's a well thought out "what if" . While timvp has a good point, I dont think the OP meant long run as in 5-6 years from now. I think he meant long run as in the next few years with Timmy still in the mix.

I also believe, just as the OP does, that the FO was deluded into believing that the team was ok after last seasons playoff performance. It was obvious to most though, that the Spurs just weren't getting any production consistently outside of the big three.

While younger legs on the perimeter would be a welcome sight, I would settle for a grizzled veteran in the middle to compliment Timmy for his remaining years.(read: Camby, Sheed)

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They went for Corey Maggette, and he got a better offer. They got Mason. They drafted Hill and played him. They went for Camby, and it didn't work out. They went for VC and it didn't work out either. Then they signed Gooden.

It's not like the FO didn't go out there to try to get more pieces. Sometimes, because of the contracts you have, or the situation a player is in, it's not that easy to actually get the moves done. But at least this season specifically, it was not because they didn't try.

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Originally Posted by the crimson blur

Relevance is not determined by championships. A ring isn't the only thing to fight for. You won't have a chance at a ring every year, but as a fan, you can only hope that your team exceeds expectations. Whether it is simply making the playoffs, winning a series, or winning a championship, there are a lot of things to cheer for as a fan. Whatever it is, you can't give up on your team.

If Spurs fans are going to act like a championship is the only thing to fight for, I don't know what the future holds for the Spurs in San Antonio. Think about Golden State fans against Dallas in 07. Did they think they were winning a ring? No. But they still supported their team. Seeing Game 1's empty stands made me think that Spurs fans don't realize that supporting your team comes at all times, whether they are the best or they are the worst. Forgetting that is forgetting the spirit of basketball, and neglecting the heart and desire of all the players that are taken for granted.

Enjoy this season. Memories will be made regardless of whether we win or lose. Do you want to be the guy cheering for the Spurs or cheering against them? I know what I want to be. A Spurs fan, now and forever.

:flag:

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Don't get me wrong. I'm still rooting for the Spurs to win as much as they can. I'm enjoying every chance I get to watch possibly the greatest player of all time perform. I'm enjoying watching Tony Parker shred defenses. I'm even appreciating every smooth Finley jumper that swishes through the net.

I'm just wondering if an overachieving (but ringless) playoff run could be damaging in the sense that it deludes the front office into thinking the team is better than it is. Duncan is looking like a lion in the winter, and it's a sad thought that he may never get a chance to lead the Spurs to a championship again. He needs help and the front office needs a wake up call.

It's nice to say we need to get younger and more athletic but there is another truth. Guys like Hairston, Gist, Williams and even Hill or all young athletic guys but will not be allowed to compete against teams with young "name" players. One maybe, but you will never see the pod of those guys get the benefit of any call in any game of significance.

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Originally Posted by MaNu4Tres

I agree with this 100 percent.

More Bowen and Hill, more Kurt Thomas/Drew Gooden, cut Finley and Mason's minutes to just 25-28 a game, and cut Bonner's minutes to 2-5.

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Isn't that what Finley and Mason average now lol? Around 28 minutes an ight?

If the Spurs are NOT going to win a championship (they aen't); I'd just as soon they get swept. More rest.

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Originally Posted by vednam

Don't get me wrong. I'm still rooting for the Spurs to win as much as they can. I'm enjoying every chance I get to watch possibly the greatest player of all time perform. I'm enjoying watching Tony Parker shred defenses. I'm even appreciating every smooth Finley jumper that swishes through the net.

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Well, at least you're a fan then :toast

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Originally Posted by vednam

I'm just wondering if an overachieving (but ringless) playoff run could be damaging in the sense that it deludes the front office into thinking the team is better than it is. Duncan is looking like a lion in the winter, and it's a sad thought that he may never get a chance to lead the Spurs to a championship again. He needs help and the front office needs a wake up call.

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Eh, I don't think they aren't trying. They've tried so many trades this season, and the transition to athletic, younger players is evident. I think the Spurs FO is going to try to do something big regardless of what happens. And, realistically, we aren't that far away from a championship. A few more pieces and we'd be a major contender again.

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Originally Posted by vednam

Don't get me wrong. I'm still rooting for the Spurs to win as much as they can. I'm enjoying every chance I get to watch possibly the greatest player of all time perform. I'm enjoying watching Tony Parker shred defenses. I'm even appreciating every smooth Finley jumper that swishes through the net.

I'm just wondering if an overachieving (but ringless) playoff run could be damaging in the sense that it deludes the front office into thinking the team is better than it is. Duncan is looking like a lion in the winter, and it's a sad thought that he may never get a chance to lead the Spurs to a championship again. He needs help and the front office needs a wake up call.

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I don't think so. I mean its hard to argue that a team needs to be improved when they win a championship but have the Spurs ever stood pat after a championship? Look at the Celtics. Clearly a dominant team yet signed Mikki Moore and Stephon Marbury and had a solid draft. If there's a chance to upgrade but there's only so much you can do with no trade bait and being over the cap.

This is the answer

http://euroleague2008.infrontams.biz...up.php?id=2902

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If the Spurs are NOT going to win a championship (they aen't); I'd just as soon they get swept. More rest.

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what rest? isn't Parker taking off to europe to play during the summer?

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Originally Posted by vednam

Don't get me wrong. I'm still rooting for the Spurs to win as much as they can. I'm enjoying every chance I get to watch possibly the greatest player of all time perform. I'm enjoying watching Tony Parker shred defenses. I'm even appreciating every smooth Finley jumper that swishes through the net.

I'm just wondering if an overachieving (but ringless) playoff run could be damaging in the sense that it deludes the front office into thinking the team is better than it is. Duncan is looking like a lion in the winter, and it's a sad thought that he may never get a chance to lead the Spurs to a championship again. He needs help and the front office needs a wake up call.

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you know what? I'm with you in this one, Duncan deserves another ring befores he retires just like when DRob retired Duncan helped DRob get his rings so now is the time for someone else to help Duncan get his.
Duncan needs to go to the FO and demand better support, look what happened when Koby made all that noise to the FO 2 years ago, he got Gasol, Araiza and some other players, so hopefully the FO gets the wake up call.:flag:

NNOOOO! .... losing in the first round is not optional!

We lost game 1, that is all, no need to panic.

Lose game 2 then this topic will have relevance.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

They went for Corey Maggette, and he got a better offer. They got Mason. They drafted Hill and played him. They went for Camby, and it didn't work out. They went for VC and it didn't work out either. Then they signed Gooden.

It's not like the FO didn't go out there to try to get more pieces. Sometimes, because of the contracts you have, or the situation a player is in, it's not that easy to actually get the moves done. But at least this season specifically, it was not because they didn't try.

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You're right on your points. Yet, the biggest issue that I keep bringing up, and the one that continues to be this team's achilles heel, is the swingman spot. Sure they've got players there, but they do not have one guy who possesses the necessary athleticism, length and skill to be a demon on defense and a competent scorer on offense. If fact, they've not had such a player since Jax left the building - and that was six years ago!

In fact, that is EXACTLY the type of player that bothers Dirk. If anyone saw the 2007 NBA first round series between Mavs and Warriors, Nelson smothered Dirk with Jax as a primary, deny-the-ball, defender and then rushed him with constant double-teams.

It is absolutely unforgivable for the Spurs roster to still be missing that type of player.

How is Gist in that regard? I haven't seen him play, but he sounds like a guy that has the body type that you're looking for Senor..

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Originally Posted by SenorSpur

You're right on your points. Yet, the biggest issue that I keep bringing up, and the one that continues to be this team's achilles heel, is the swingman spot. Sure they've got players there, but they do not have one guy who possesses the necessary athleticism, length and skill to be a demon on defense and a competent scorer on offense. If fact, they've not had such a player since Jax left the building - and that was six years ago!

In fact, that is EXACTLY the type of player that bothers Dirk. If anyone saw the 2007 NBA first round series between Mavs and Warriors, Nelson smothered Dirk with Jax as a primary, deny-the-ball, defender and then rushed him with constant double-teams.

It is absolutely unforgivable for the Spurs roster to still be missing that type of player.

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But who? Raja Bell is a guy I wouldn't mind filling that role, but I don't think he realistically could have been had. SJax is out of the question. Artest was available, but very expensive, selfish and a big gamble. I like Battier also, but I think he's pretty happy in Houston. You have to give me somebody that's unhappy with his team, doesn't earn a max or near max contract and has all the qualities you mentioned. There really isn't that many guys out there, especially that can really play solid D.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

But who? Raja Bell is a guy I wouldn't mind filling that role, but I don't think he realistically could have been had. SJax is out of the question. Artest was available, but very expensive, selfish and a big gamble. I like Battier also, but I think he's pretty happy in Houston. You have to give me somebody that's unhappy with his team, doesn't earn a max or near max contract and has all the qualities you mentioned. There really isn't that many guys out there, especially that can really play solid D.

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I'd absolutely love if we got Trevor Ariza from free agency this summer. I seems near impossible, but he is the perfect man for the job.

It helps me make my vacation plans.

It helps me get a discount from the prepayment I had to make on playoff tickets.

It helps me stop fooling myself and dreaming about unlikely scenarios.

Does it help the Spurs ? Nope.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

But who? Raja Bell is a guy I wouldn't mind filling that role, but I don't think he realistically could have been had. SJax is out of the question. Artest was available, but very expensive, selfish and a big gamble. I like Battier also, but I think he's pretty happy in Houston. You have to give me somebody that's unhappy with his team, doesn't earn a max or near max contract and has all the qualities you mentioned. There really isn't that many guys out there, especially that can really play solid D.

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In six years, there were definitely some options to consider.

Let's start first with the guy they passed over in the 2003 NBA draft because they were busy pursuing Jason Kidd, the very summer Jax left - Josh Howard. This is not to say he's a stalwart defender, but he would've been a nice option for many years. Suitable scorer, decent defender, who has developed into a nice player and is in mid-career.

Then there was Mickael Pietrus. Very good defender. Aggresive. Excels in the open court

Hell, I would've taken a gamble on Ron Artest. He's doing well in Houston. Now seems to get it. Will be available in the offseason.

There were other possible options. Trevor Ariza, Desmond Mason, Renaldo Balkman, Matt Barnes, Dahntay Jones, Hakim Warrick, Yakhouba Diawara. Some of these guys are defenders only, with limited offensive games, but hey, so was Bowen, until he developed an 3-pt shot.

Then there is the guy I hope they go after this offseason - Luc Richard Mbah A Moute. Long, athletic, 6'8" SF, Terrific defender, who can defend multiple positions and block shots. Good offense around the basket, still raw but developing. Was an season-long starter for the Bucks. Because he was a 2nd round draft pick, he'll be an unrestricted FA this offseason.

You're right. There aren't many of those types out there. Some need more polish and development on the fly. However if a team makes a commitment, you never know.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

They went for Corey Maggette, and he got a better offer. They got Mason. They drafted Hill and played him. They went for Camby, and it didn't work out. They went for VC and it didn't work out either. Then they signed Gooden.

It's not like the FO didn't go out there to try to get more pieces. Sometimes, because of the contracts you have, or the situation a player is in, it's not that easy to actually get the moves done. But at least this season specifically, it was not because they didn't try.

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It didn't work out. They did not get the players period. How often does it not work out for the spurs. It didn't work out when they tried to get Sprewell, jR Smith Camby and R wallace and Carter and on and on. That is not a good front office if they never can make the big move to upgrade the talent.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

FYI, you're talking to a Laker fan.

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So which ever team someone thinks will win it all then they become a fan of that particular team. That is your logic.