Cheney Calls for Release of Memos Showing Results of Interrogation Efforts

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Originally Posted by Winehole23

It does, but are you really ready to watch the interrogations? I'm not.

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I'm not either, but what does that have to do with whether or not our government should clue us in on the value, if any, of the information those interrogations obtained?

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Originally Posted by DarrinS

I have the opinion that releasing the original memo was a mistake in the first place. But, if the admin is being politically selective in what they release, them I'm against that too.

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Agreed. If it's about transparency, let's give the whole story. Without it, how can we be sure that this isn't anything other than an attempt by one group to make their political rivals look bad.

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Originally Posted by coyotes_geek

I'm not either, but what does that have to do with whether or not our government should clue us in on the value, if any, of the information those interrogations obtained?

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It doesn't.

We don't even know if the "value" of interrogations has even been formally assessed by our government yet, and we might risk of giving away methods, identities or other helpful information to our enemies if we declassify too much.

It'd be nice to have the certitude that torture saved lives, if you think the ends justify the means. I don't.

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Originally Posted by coyotes_geek

Aren't the results of the interrogations part of the truth for the public record?

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no--that's work product of the agency. if any crimes are charged as a result, then maybe.

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Originally Posted by coyotes_geek

Agreed. If it's about transparency, let's give the whole story. Without it, how can we be sure that this isn't anything other than an attempt by one group to make their political rivals look bad.

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Why can't it be both at the same time?

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Originally Posted by Winehole23

It doesn't.

We don't even know if the "value" of interrogations has even been formally assessed by our government yet, and we might risk of giving away methods, identities or other helpful information to our enemies if we declassify too much.

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Wasn't this already released in excruciating detail?

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Originally Posted by DarrinS

Wasn't this already released in excruciating detail?

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We've just barely scratched the surface, IMO.

Wow. Who gives a damn about the 'ends'? I don't really care if we saved 0 lives, 1 ife, or 1000 lives. It bears no importance whatsoever if the tortured persons said absolutely nothing or recited the entire 14th amendment.
It's unjustifiable that a society that likes to label themselves 'peaceful', 'civilized' and 'advanced' goes back to do things it has condemned for centuries now.
Trying to rationalize torture is no different than trying to rationalize rape or murder. It's wrong, we knew it was wrong, and that there's some guy fucked up in the head that thinks everything is 'fair game', and was in a position of power, is dangerous to say the least. I can't believe we had that nuthead in power for so long. I'm actually surprised he didn't completely destroy this country.

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Originally Posted by Winehole23

It'd be nice to have the certitude that torture saved lives, if you think the ends justify the means. I don't.

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I don't know whether the ends justify the means or not because I have no clue what the "ends" are. I respect your opinion, I just don't see why you think it's a bad thing for me to have the whole story from the government before I form mine. Maybe this isn't you specifically, but I just sense that a lot of the opposition to releasing all the information is rooted in a fear of potentially discovering that these interrogations just might be saving lives, thus making it harder to condemn the actions of an unpopular administration.

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Originally Posted by Winehole23

Why can't it be both at the same time?

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Because one involves letting people paint their own picture and one involves the government painting it for them.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

Wow. Who gives a damn about the 'ends'? I don't really care if we saved 0 lives, 1 ife, or 1000 lives. It bears no importance whatsoever if the tortured persons said absolutely nothing or recited the entire 14th amendment.
It's unjustifiable that a society that likes to label themselves 'peaceful', 'civilized' and 'advanced' goes back to do things it has condemned for centuries now.
Trying to rationalize torture is no different than trying to rationalize rape or murder. It's wrong, we knew it was wrong, and that there's some guy fucked up in the head that thinks everything is 'fair game', and was in a position of power, is dangerous to say the least. I can't believe we had that nuthead in power for so long. I'm actually surprised he didn't completely destroy this country.

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What city are you willing to sacrifice?

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Originally Posted by ElNono

Wow. Who gives a damn about the 'ends'? I don't really care if we saved 0 lives, 1 ife, or 1000 lives. It bears no importance whatsoever if the tortured persons said absolutely nothing or recited the entire 14th amendment.
It's unjustifiable that a society that likes to label themselves 'peaceful', 'civilized' and 'advanced' goes back to do things it has condemned for centuries now.
Trying to rationalize torture is no different than trying to rationalize rape or murder. It's wrong, we knew it was wrong, and that there's some guy fucked up in the head that thinks everything is 'fair game', and was in a position of power, is dangerous to say the least. I can't believe we had that nuthead in power for so long. I'm actually surprised he didn't completely destroy this country.

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As with WH, I respect your opinion. But to some the "ends" do matter. What's the harm in letting those people know more? Is it because you're afraid that someone might come to an opinion that differs from yours?

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Originally Posted by DarrinS

What city are you willing to sacrifice?

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"24" is a TV fantasy, not a documentary.

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Originally Posted by PixelPusher

"24" is a TV fantasy, not a documentary.

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Indeed. To my 8 year old and my 5 year old, videos of 911 seem like a TV fantasy.


Would water boarding one person be acceptable if could prevent 3000 deaths? A hypothetical. You know what that means, right?

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Originally Posted by coyotes_geek

Because one involves letting people paint their own picture and one involves the government painting it for them.

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IMO it's both at the same time. If it is the former, the people can and will paint it to suit their political preconceptions; if the latter, cum grano salis, of course, but the political purpose does not necessarily dispel the revealed facts.

It is a point of guile for propaganda to base itself on the truth wherever possible. The public, being used to the deception by long abuse, reads between the lines and tries to divine the truth, although at a very great disadvantage, which you emphasize...

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Originally Posted by coyotes_geek

As with WH, I respect your opinion. But to some the "ends" do matter. What's the harm in letting those people know more?

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Out of solicitude for torturers and torture apologists, evidence should be declassified so they can cherry pick it for support. Bullshit. Go ahead and release it anyway, but not to pacify crybaby torturers or their political toadies.

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Originally Posted by coyotes_geek

Is it because you're afraid that someone might come to an opinion that differs from yours?

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Absolutely not. But when I see posters jumping to conclusions without any evidence, I'll point it out. Don't give me any of that evidence of absence is not absence of evidence crap. Back up your take. The evidence may not back Cheney up.

The inference that Obama has hidden evidence that will back Dick Cheney up is mischievous, indecorous and totally threadbare.

Consider also that other countries may detect war crimes in the requested information, and may also consider official disclosure of *enhanced interrogation* to be tantamount to a profession of legal responsibility for torture and war crimes.

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Originally Posted by DarrinS

Indeed. To my 8 year old and my 5 year old, videos of 911 seem like a TV fantasy.


Would water boarding one person be acceptable if could prevent 3000 deaths? A hypothetical. You know what that means, right?

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Would you allow one of your kids to be taken away, imprisoned and tortured for several years if it resulted in world peace? A hypothetical.

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Hypotheticals are situations, statements or questions about something imaginary rather than something real.

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"hypothetical" torture is an intellectual indulgence that allows you to avoid grabbling with the real life problem that real life torture will induce real life people to say...anything.

But most torture supporters prefer to indulge in this pretense:

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Originally Posted by random episode of "24"

Jack: "I'm only going to ask you one more time - where's the detonator!"

Bad Guy: "I really don't know what you're talking about...I'm just a -"

Jack cuts off a finger with a cigar slicer

Bad Guy: "AAAHHHH!!!! Ok, ok - the detonator is located at 1537 Cherry St., Apartment 17B, back bedroom, bottom drawer of the nightstand in a Nike shoebox"

....

Jack then hurries to the given location and retrieves the detonator, because the intel Jack recieves from torture is ALWAYS correct.

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Originally Posted by PixelPusher

Would you allow one of your kids to be taken away, imprisoned and tortured for several years if it resulted in world peace? A hypothetical.

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Since I live in the real world and not some "it's a small world after all, let's all hold hands Utopia", my answer is no.

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Originally Posted by PixelPusher

"hypothetical" torture is an intellectual indulgence that allows you to avoid grabbling with the real life problem that real life torture will induce real life people to say...anything.

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First of all, what's "grabbling"?

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Originally Posted by PixelPusher

But most torture supporters prefer to indulge in this pretense:

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No one I know of is a torture "supporter".

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Originally Posted by DarrinS

First of all, what's "grabbling"?

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spell fail. I meant "grappling"

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Originally Posted by PixelPusher

spell fail. I meant "grappling"

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I'm not a big MMA fan.

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Originally Posted by DarrinS

What city are you willing to sacrifice?

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The only thing being sacrificed here is the integrity of our nation. How could you possibly claim any moral authority on anybody when you reduce yourself to the worst scum on this planet? The very same scum we claim we're fighting hard to eradicate.
We all like to think we're better than that, but it's obvious some aren't.

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Originally Posted by DarrinS

What city are you willing to sacrifice?

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The circularity and question begging is remarkable for such a short post. The poster is alleged to put entire cities at hazard by rejecting torture as immoral. Inferentially, torture reliably works and protects us from mass murder. (Wow. Just like TV.)

You are suggesting there is some magic threshold of human lives that makes torture acceptable.

In Bentham and Mills' hedonistic calculus maybe there is, but not in judeo-christian morality.

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Originally Posted by coyotes_geek

As with WH, I respect your opinion. But to some the "ends" do matter. What's the harm in letting those people know more? Is it because you're afraid that someone might come to an opinion that differs from yours?

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I'm personally not against more disclosure. However, I'd like to see a little more outrage about this situation. Putting Cheney on the air and asking him nice questions about this topic is akin to conducting an interview with a murderer and asking him if you get a nice feeling when you end somebody's life. They should be letting him know what a fucking douche he is, not trying to rationalize if it was all worth it.

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Originally Posted by DarrinS

Indeed. To my 8 year old and my 5 year old, videos of 911 seem like a TV fantasy.

Would water boarding one person be acceptable if could prevent 3000 deaths? A hypothetical. You know what that means, right?

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Of course it wouldn't be. Specially because waterboarding is not the ONLY way to obtain that information. And I'm certainly hoping you're explaining your kids that there is a price to pay to live free. But that living free is a whole lot better than living in fear.

El Nono: The US isn't ready to face it. DarrinS thinks 24 is a work of non-fiction. So do many others.