Killing the Muslim world with kindness

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Originally Posted by jman3000

nothing in what you posted sayed anything about America being arrogant.

after WWI France and Britain pretty much owed the Middle East. they set up boundaries based on man made or geographical criteria and pretty much held no regard for exactly who lived on that land.

I think you think he was talking about our occupation of Iraq... but when he uses the word "colonialism" it pretty much points to the treatment the Middle East experienced under harsh French / British rule. I mean just look at their colonial track record. pretty much everywhere they've set up shop they've pissed people off and created resentment.

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And yet India isn't bombing England.


The entire Arab world has a collective GDP less than Spain. Their lack of progress is their own fault. It is their choice.

i just can't see how people can look at this situation and not take cause and effect into consideration.

America is the best country in the world and has done more to promote democracy than perhaps any other country in all of history. that doesn't mean we're perfect. that doesn't mean that we've done things in our history that contributed SOME to how the Middle East feels about us. Everything to some people is so black and white and i just can't comprehend thinking like that. it just screams of intellectual shallowness.

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Originally Posted by jman3000

i just can't see how people can look at this situation and not take cause and effect into consideration.

America is the best country in the world and has done more to promote democracy than perhaps any other country in all of history. that doesn't mean we're perfect. that doesn't mean that we've done things in our history that contributed SOME to how the Middle East feels about us. Everything to some people is so black and white and i just can't comprehend thinking like that. it just screams of intellectual shallowness.

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Originally Posted by DarrinS

And yet India isn't bombing England.


The entire Arab world has a collective GDP less than Spain. Their lack of progress is their own fault. It is their choice.

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The entire Arab world has a collective GDP less than Spain.

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Rilly? Link, please?

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Originally Posted by jman3000

i just can't see how people can look at this situation and not take cause and effect into consideration.

America is the best country in the world and has done more to promote democracy than perhaps any other country in all of history. that doesn't mean we're perfect. that doesn't mean that we've done things in our history that contributed SOME to how the Middle East feels about us. Everything to some people is so black and white and i just can't comprehend thinking like that. it just screams of intellectual shallowness.

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I agree with what you're saying. That's why I said in a previous post that he needs to walk a fine line. I just think he's a little TOO apologetic. In his Cairo speech, Obama was applauded every time he said something positive about Islam, but every time he was the slightest bit critical, he just got stares and crickets. If all of this works and jihad dies as a movement, more power to him, but I just have my doubts.

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Originally Posted by Winehole23

Rilly? Link, please?

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You don't know how to use the internets?

and india was bombing the english. if it wasn't for people like Ghandi that shit would have really hit the fan.

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Originally Posted by Winehole23

Rilly? Link, please?

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...y_GDP_(nominal)

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Originally Posted by DarrinS

You don't know how to use the internets?

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It's not my job to back up what you say.

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Originally Posted by Winehole23

It's not my job to back up what you say.

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I posted a link, but you'll have to use your own calculator.

Plus which, you've yet to establish any rep in this forum for reliability, evenhandedness and veracity. Face it: you're a shill for Right-Blogistan, DarrinS.

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Originally Posted by Winehole23

Plus which, you've yet to establish any rep in this forum for reliability, evenhandedness and veracity. Face it: you're a shill for Right-Blogistan, DarrinS.

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Good Lord, WH, don't be such a drama queen. After all, I did vote for the man.


Like I said in a previous post in this thread, I just wish Obama was more a JFK-type democrat and less Jimmy Carter.

Checks out, but leaves me unsure why the comparison is a putdown. By "Arab world, I suppose you mean the Arabian peninsula and the Levant, plus Iraq. That they come up short of the world's eighth largest GDP might be impressive to some people, particularly considering the geographical differences.

the Middle East is a bit of an anomaly when it comes to economic development. Most countries start as an agrarian economy, and slowly work their way up to manufacturing and industrialization, and then on to more complex things like banking and financial services. These countries don't have shit for land that is arable and due to the discovery of oil were basically shot from square 0 to square 4 in a couple decades. I'm assuming their GDP is so low because they lean on oil production too much and haven't diversified any part of their economy. non oil producing regions are supremely fucked.

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Originally Posted by Winehole23

Checks out, but leaves me unsure why the comparison is a putdown. By "Arab world, I suppose you mean the Arabian peninsula and the Levant, plus Iraq. That they come up short of the world's eighth largest GDP might be impressive to some people, particularly considering the geographical differences.

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Given that they had such advanced civilizations in ancient times and excelled in areas of science and engineering and that, currently, many of these countries have significant resources, e.g. oil, it is sad that their current culture hasn't kept up with the modern world. I guess that's what happens when you want to cover up females and deny them access to education.

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Originally Posted by DarrinS

I guess that's what happens when you want to cover up females and deny them access to education.

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In Iraq, this is a post-invasion, post-democracy phenomenon.

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Originally Posted by DarrinS

it is sad that their current culture hasn't kept up with the modern world.

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Why is that? Is the modern world better in every way?

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Originally Posted by Winehole23

Why is that? Is the modern world better in every way?

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yes

Islam forbids all forms of intoxicants. Does that make them more moral than us?

I don't believe that women should be covered up or denied education. it's stupid.

but perhaps we shouldn't be declaring our moral / cultural superiority when we all have our problems and we all have things in our culture that are wrong.

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Originally Posted by jman3000

Islam forbids all forms of intoxicants. Does that make them more moral than us?

I don't believe that women should be covered up or denied education. it's stupid.

but perhaps we shouldn't be declaring our moral / cultural superiority when we all have our problems and we all have things in our culture that are wrong.

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Don't you find it odd that so many Muslims are emigrating to Europe and the US, societies that they abhor?

Just because you move to another place doesn't mean you don't take your religion with you. It's not the state that outlaws intoxicants... it's the religion.

are there non practicing muslims? yeah... just like there are non practicing christians. explanations for things are more complex and often require more deliberation than just taking it at face value.

i mean i could just say "don't you find it odd that islam is the fastest growing religion in the world" ... and walk off like i just pwned you or something... but i know that it has a lot more to do with 3rd world birthrates in indonesia and africa and less to do with people going .."geez this religion is great... ill convert"

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Originally Posted by DarrinS

it is sad that their current culture hasn't kept up with the modern world.

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Really, Darrin, what do you know about Arab culture?

If not for modernity, Wahhabism still would be a tribal oddity, rather than a sect of world-historical significance.

The notion that anyone whose civilization hasn't been deracinated by liberal mass culture is living in the dark, is chauvinism plain and simple.

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Originally Posted by me

No shit. They wonder why they are out of power. Liberals might have the wrong answers but at least they can tell what the questions are.[stolen from someone I can't remember]

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Originally Posted by Extra Stout

From me. You're welcome.

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:toast It's a good one. At least I made an attempt at attribution.

Could we please stop conflating Arab culture and Islam? Not all Arabs are Muslim, not all Muslims are Arab. There are countries that are currently Arab dictatorships, and countries that currently have Islamic regimes. Let's make sure we're defining our terms correctly before spouting off opinions.