Looks like the government police are out in huge force and there have been lots of clashes. Their government TV is reporting a blast so I'm sure they're going to try to blame that on the reformers.
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Looks like the government police are out in huge force and there have been lots of clashes. Their government TV is reporting a blast so I'm sure they're going to try to blame that on the reformers.
Suicide bomber kills self at Tehran shrine: report
Sat Jun 20, 2009 9:59am EDT
TEHRAN (Reuters) - A suicide bomber blew himself up near the shrine of Iran's revolutionary founder, Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, in Tehran on Saturday, Iran's semi-official Mehr news agency reported.
"A few minutes ago a suicide bomber blew himself up at the shrine," Mehr quoted a police official, Hossein Sajedinia, as saying.
Two other people were wounded in the incident in the northern wing of the shrine, another news agency, Fars, said.
Elsewhere in Tehran Iranian riot police used teargas to disperse demonstrators protesting against a disputed presidential election, a witness said.
Iran's English-language Press TV said police used teargas to disperse demonstrators at Tehran's Enghelab square.
Most of the reformists on the internet are blaming the government although there is speculation that it might be the work of some anti government groups. I'd lay heavy odds that it was the regime though. Seems exactly like what they would do and what a lot of people expected after listening to the speech yesterday.
Andrew Sullivan's blog is a great source of running info today. It has been throughout the episode but even moreso today.
Just think how bad it would've been had Obama been more critical.
Actually, there was a very good discussion of Obama's handling of this situation on Charlie Rose last night. The four guests he had on were able to have a rational discussion about it without resorting to childish name calling. All of them pretty much agreed that they wouldn't be surprised to see that admin take a more critical stance as these events unfold.
They haven't posted the video yet.
http://www.charlierose.com/schedule/
Does this surprise you? Have you seen Charlie Rose before?Quote:
Originally Posted by DarrinS
No and yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Winehole23
Just think how much it would have helped. :rolleyesQuote:
Originally Posted by DarrinS
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarrinS
What a bunch of whoreish thieves : pQuote:
Originally Posted by jman3000
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChumpDumper
Yeah, they're just words. Hmm, that reminds me of a familiar speech.
Hmm, that reminds me the theocracy is looking for any excuse to use more violence on the protesters.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarrinS
Why do you hate the protesters, Darrin?
11.40 am. Mousavi: I Am Ready For Death.
Darrin can't wrap his head around the fact that they don't need us to do anything for them right. He's been told the lie that the only way those people succeed is if we do something - anything - to facilitate them. He just refuses to acknowledge the sentiment of the Iranian people regarding American interference and he continues to try to make this about Obama when it is about the Persian people who have had enough and no one else.
Darrins is so cynical it hurts my head.
You're dead wrong on this subject and that's a fact. Not an opinion. If some of the reformers had the stench of the U.S. on them then it wouldn't just be the regime vs. the reformers, it'd be the reformers vs. the regime and the reformers. You seem to read just about every conservative blog you can find and you probably just let it form your opinions for you. As Extra Stout used yesterday "My mind's made up, don't confuse me with the facts".
I think it's good that Mousavi is still fighting this. I can't imagine the regime will allow him to live much longer. Probably execute him on treason or some shit. If that happens then the shit will seriously hit the fan and that could be the catalyst for all out revolution.
They won't kill him. I can almost promise you they won't make him a martyr. The worst that will happen is they will exile him, but I can't imagine them being so stupid as to make him a martyr in a society that absolutely loves its martyrs.
I hate to say it, but I have no reason to believe the regime won't succeed right now. They are sniffling the crowds today, and unless the crowds are simply greater than I have given them credit for today they won't ever reach a "critical mass" and eventually people will tire.
I hope they continue as long as possible and I hope they don't give up, but the odds are long.
That just might do it. If he dies, he gets martyr status, and we all know how much Muslims regard martyrs.Quote:
Originally Posted by MannyIsGod
Got damn it. Quit your shit. I'm trying to make points here and you beating me by a minute or two is pissing me off. :lol
Your missing the fact that he can make himself a martyr. He doesn't need the regime to do anything for him to become one.Quote:
Originally Posted by MannyIsGod
A twitter message on the daily dish.
Maybe Jman is onto something....
12.02 pm. Mousavi tells he's bathed [ritually] for martyrdom.
holy balls.
This is some crazy shit happening in Iran. It's almost like someone planted a seed of democracy in the middle east and now it's trying to spread.
So we're only getting peripheral footage and pictures to the actual demonstration?
They're saying that there aren't as many people protesting.
But I think it's just that they're cracking down on large protests... so instead of a few large protests... you have a lot of small, spread out ones. So naturally we're not gonna see the full picture. I think all the people will come out for a big protest at night when it's harder for the police to see what's going on and easier for the protesters to escape.
Let's get a round of applause for the internet age and our beloved geeks worldwide who will forever find ways around Government blockades :toast:toast:toast:toast
The seeds have been there for over 100 years -- there's just a lot of shit that kept them from growing.Quote:
Originally Posted by SnakeBoy
12.53 pm. The state media are putting words into Obama's mouth:
This morning a friend of NIAC who gets Iranian Satellite TV here said that state-run media showed President Obama speaking about Iran this morning. However, instead of translating what he actually said, the translator reportedly quoted Obama as saying he “supports the protesters against the government and they should keep protesting." Assuming this report is correct, it shows the Iranian government is eager to portray Obama as a partisan supporting the demonstrators.
So the Khamenei regime wants the same posture from the Obama as Krauthammer and Wolfowitz. They just don't know what they're talking about, do they?
Neocons and hardline jews are becoming the most truly anti american faction in american politics in my life time. To think they successfully portrayed liberal anti war pussies as more anti american, while they themselves actively cheer on policies that would fuck us both short and long term.Quote:
Originally Posted by MannyIsGod
Obama is just taking a page out of Ron Paul's playbook. Nothing to see here.
NeoCons fuck up America in foreign policyQuote:
Originally Posted by Cant_Be_Faded
Liberals fuck up America domestically.
Choose your poison.
Paul was spot on in his reasoning to vote against the resolution.
I think it's to the point now where the only reason conservatives are still going to bitch and moan about Obama on this subject is so that when he actually does say something they can take all the credit and say "about time". When in reality if they had gotten their way and he had interfered earlier, things would have been much, much worse.
You guys need to quit hogging the youth vote in the primaries imho.Quote:
The lone lawmaker to vote against the symbolic measure supporting Iranian dissidents, Rep. Ron Paul (R-Texas), defended that vote Friday, saying the U.S. is only selectively expressing its outrage at voter suppression in other countries.
"I rise in reluctant opposition to H Res 560, which condemns the Iranian government for its recent actions during the unrest in that country," Paul said in a statement on his website.
"Of course I do not support attempts by foreign governments to suppress the democratic aspirations of their people, but when is the last time we condemned Saudi Arabia or Egypt or the many other countries where unlike in Iran there is no opportunity to exercise any substantial vote on political leadership?" the libertarian Republican asked. "It seems our criticism is selective and applied when there are political points to be made."
Paul said he supported President Obama's more cautious approach to the situation in Iran, an approach many of his Republican colleagues in Congress have criticized as too lax.
:tuQuote:
Originally Posted by ChumpDumper
He's a living legend.
Besides the internet, CNN probably has the best coverage of this right now. They're showing pretty much all the video that's coming out today.
MSNBC is showing some prison shit and Fox is just having Republican congressmen/Krauthammer on to complain about Obama's handling of the situation.
Blunt and overgeneralized, though somewhat on the correct path.Quote:
Originally Posted by FaithInOne
...and he's allegedly the crazy one.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChumpDumper
It looks like there's anti-protester protesters amongst the protesters... saw some civilians throwing rocks at a group... don't know which side was which though.
I watched this morning but they ended up just showing shit I had seen an hour earlier on the net.Quote:
Originally Posted by jman3000
Now they're showing videos that are getting on the web like a minute or two afterwards.Quote:
Originally Posted by MannyIsGod
Hence the "besides the internet". Some people here don't know what sites to go to and CNN is giving a nice summation.Quote:
Originally Posted by MannyIsGod
Andrew Sullivan just posted what is the most disturbing footage I've seen of this event yet. In fact its some of the most disturbing footage I've ever seen. A young woman is brutally murdered.
I can't imagine taking the life of someone simply because they desire freedom.
It looks like she was shot in upper chest. Those people are trying to stop the bleeding... but the blood has nowhere to go so it basically fills her throat and comes out her mouth/nose.
At first I thought she was being choked... but they're not putting pressure on her neck at all.
Did you see the link to the report about China telling its media to downplay the riots?
It doesn't want an uprising of its own. This is getting incredibly interesting.
That video made me incredibly sad. I don't even know what to say man.
What's causing the change now?Quote:
Originally Posted by ChumpDumper
Don't get me wrong, I never supported the establish a democracy in the heart of the middle east and it will spread philosophy from Bush/Cheney but current events make me go hmmmmm.
I'm sure it's just coincidence like when Reagan rejected detente and took on the Soviet Union and then out of pure coincidence the Soviet Union collapsed.
Don't watch the second one then... it shows a close up of her face. I had to look away.Quote:
Originally Posted by MannyIsGod
Yeah, the bankruptcy of the Soviet system and the free market's being established there had nothing to do with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by SnakeBoy
Americans take way too much credit for the positive events in foreign lands and none of the blame for the bad.
The change here is being caused by the shitty state of Iran in general and the incredulous elections results given those conditions.
No fucking shit. Thats all I could think about when he made that first post. They can't get over their Amerocentric thinking. Its not all about America, its really not.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChumpDumper
Jman, I watched it. It was far more disturbing than the first which was already bad. Just horrible and beyond my contemplation. I hope the Iranians are able to succeed peacefully with as little bloodshed as possible but I know these things never happen without it.
It's not relegated to Tehran anymore. It's nationwide. There are protests all over and there's no way we can possibly know how big this has become. Like I said before, I think that once the sun sets this thing is going to get exponentially worse. I'm actually going to agree with Krauthammer somewhat in regards to all they need right now is for some of the police forces to either put their weapons down or switch sides.Quote:
Originally Posted by MannyIsGod
If/when Mousavi becomes a martyr, if/when the police start to question their orders, if/when this spreads beyond the youth, then revolution WILL take place.
One thing is for sure... Iran will not be the same after this no matter what.
CNN always has the best coverage when it comes to the middle east.Quote:
Originally Posted by jman3000
What videos are ya'll talking about? Link?
This is from Mousavi's facebook so I'm not sure how true it is, but its reportedly one of the people in the videos of the woman who was shot.
Quote:
Basij shots to death a young woman in Tehran's Saturday June 20th protests At 19:05 June 20th Place: Karekar Ave., at the corner crossing Khosravi St. and Salehi st. A young woman who was standing aside with her father watching the protests was shot by a basij member hiding on the rooftop of a civilian house. He had clear shot at the girl and could not miss her. However, he aimed straight her heart. I am a doctor, so I rushed to try to save her. But the impact of the gunshot was so fierce that the bullet had blasted inside the victim's chest, and she died in less than 2 minutes. The protests were going on about 1 kilometers away in the main street and some of the protesting crowd were running from tear gass used among them, towards Salehi St. The film is shot by my friend who was standing beside me. Please let the world know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnakeBoy
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/
I actually hope CNN shows that video - its even on facebook now so they have to have seen it.
google andrew sullivan and check out his blog like manny saidQuote:
Originally Posted by SnakeBoy
it has live tweets, updates, videos.
N/m
Quote:
Originally Posted by MannyIsGod
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124537040666029677.html
Quote:
Don't Accept This Coup
By Kaveh from Tabriz
Ahmadinejad has taken revenge on the students of Iran during these violent days. The regime's aim is to damage universities, since they are the first base of change, movement and protest.
I live in the dorms at Tehran University. I was asleep when Basij militiamen entered my room early Monday morning, demolished everything and started beating us. A man with a long beard broke my notebook and said: "It is destroyed, this book that you were using against Islam and Ahmadinejad."
They beat students more when they saw posters of Mousavi in their rooms. And they carried big knives and guns.
They also attacked the women's dormitory next door. The Supreme Leader calls us rioters, but I want to ask him: How can sleeping women in their beds be rioters? Is this the Islamic justice he believes in?
President Obama's speech was good; he says that he will support us. He also said that nations must decide the fate of their countries by themselves. I agree with him, but now we don't have any power to change the situation, so we need help and attention.
We ask the president not to accept this coup d'etat.
By the way, I'm sure you'll change your tone when Obama does, and he will.
He has no choice now.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarrinS
Darrin you're impossible. This is why no one takes you seriously.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant
If you're an isolationist, Ron Paul is your man. He and Pat Buchanan.
That one guy they just interviewed brought it up, and the reporter quickly changed the subject so i doubt it will be shownQuote:
Originally Posted by MannyIsGod
:lol @ Pat Buchanan being an isolationist.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Buc...Foreign_PolicyQuote:
Originally Posted by MannyIsGod
what the fuck? I've been saying this whole time that's it's not whether he does it or not... it's when he does it.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarrinS
You've been the one bitching that he should have said something days ago. Which was the single most wrong thing to do at the time.
You're wrong. You've been wrong this entire fucking time. Get over it.
If you don't want the state dragging the American people into foreign crises which have absolutely nothing to do with national defense then, yes, Paul is the man. Surely you can distinguish between the people and state, or have you totally sold your soul to the state?Quote:
Originally Posted by DarrinS
As for "isolationalist," I'm not sure you have a complete understanding of what that entails, and how that does not preclude private condemnation of the Iranian state's actions.
It appears you are right about Buchanan, Darrin. For whatever reason, I attributed completely different views to him.
Darrin, remind us again what good Obama's saying what you wanted him to say would do for the protesters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jman3000
You saying I'm wrong makes it so. :rolleyes
And btw, that article you posted wasn't asking for Obama to say something. They're asking for flat out help. Are you advocating we help them Darrin?
You being wrong and completely ignorant as to the specifics of the situation makes you wrong. Not anything I say.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarrinS
You can't even articulate your view, Darrin. Jman's provided a lot of reasoning for his view. What have you done outside of copy and paste? You're the last person on this site who should be acting as though someone hasn't provided substance or proof.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarrinS
And so the Wilsonian disease continues to infect these United States.
Iranian students say they're doomed if Obama recognizes Iran's election result
Quote:
Originally Posted by MannyIsGod
Thanks Manny, very sad. Made me think of that phrase "the road to freedom is paved with blood". For some reason I always thought Iranians were a fairly well armed population. I'm going to go give my guns a hug now.
When on earth has he given any indication of doing that? That video is also days old. You literally went searching for something of that nature, didn't you? You don't see the problem with that, do you?
It's around 11 PM in Iran right now. Let's see where this goes.
They just showed it... but they pixelated the shit out of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by MannyIsGod
Well, as this turns bloody Obama has no choice but to condemn the actions. He can't sit on the sidelines and he definitely can't sit down with Ahmadinejad. Imagine that photo op of Obama and Ahmadinejad shaking hands and smiling. He'd get destroyed politically.
Yeah I saw. Really took out the effect of the video.
You guys are amazing.Quote:
Originally Posted by SnakeBoy
Of course he can. If we are going to go with the sports analogies, he'll be talking about the game at the very most. Nobody is going to play but the Iranians.Quote:
He can't sit on the sidelines
It is definetly one of the sadest things I've ever seen.Quote:
Originally Posted by SnakeBoy
So it's 11 pm there right now? What's the delay for footage we're getting, cuz all that shit shows daylight still.
I wonder if insurgents in other battlezones in the ME are using this huge story as a media cover to take rash action of their own. I perused google news and it said 50 dead in one attack in iraq. That sounds like alot for one attack.
Sun sets at 830. So the videos coming in were probably shot around 5 or 6... then the person went home and uploaded it onto their computer around 7 or 8.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cant_Be_Faded
According to AS's sources 30-40 dead in one hospital in Tehran. The body count is probably in the hundreds if one hospital alone has that type of body count. Thousands probably injured.
I really wish he hadn't placed that picture there. I think people can see it for themselves if they watched the video.
Don't lump us together. I haven't been critical of Obama's stance. Today's events will change his stance, wait and see.Quote:
Originally Posted by MannyIsGod
Talking is all I'm talking about. Words matter remember.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChumpDumper
Not as much as you think or in the way you might think.Quote:
Originally Posted by SnakeBoy
CBF, I just saw a video of the nighttime chanting in Tehran on facebook, but I don't think I can link it here. It just takes time for these things to filter through.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obama
Looks like this is playing out exactly as I had thought. Apparently they're amassing for a huge night time rally.
Thoughts on barack's statement?
Due to the brutal images, he couldn't stay silent. I just hope its not used against him.
There's not much to it CBF. I'm just waiting for Darrin to come in and personally take credit for swaying Obama.
It's a typical statement though. We'll see if it shuts the neocons up or if it just emboldens them.
I thought it was poignant and fitting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cant_Be_Faded
It will be used against him because people will say he should have said something earlier... bring up their messiah, Reagan,... and question his judgment.
All these things are just for political points which is completely pathetic in a situation like this. He's acting in his capacities as Head of State in this instance and not doing it in a partisan manner. He's getting intelligence briefings around the clock on the happenings and probably has a firmer understanding about it than anyone here or anywhere.
Really I coudln't care much less about how much flak he gets for the statement or his previous statements. This is not an American situation. We're just spectators.
That's all this was about to all these pricks. Credit. They wanted to take the movement from the Iranians and give it to themselves for their own nationalistic reasons. They wanted to say it was us who caused the revolution. That is was us who saved them. That it was we who were their hope.Quote:
Originally Posted by MannyIsGod
Fuck that. The Iranians get the credit for this one. Every person who has lost their life for this cause gets the credit.
Yeah I just hope it doesn't dramatically alter the course of events within Iran. I suppose at this point, since they already lied about Obama backing the demonstrators, it doesn't matter as much.
It does matter. It's one thing for Obama to say something and the Iranian regime tell the truth and play his statement. It's another to not say anything and have the regime lie and play a fake statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cant_Be_Faded
It undermines their credibility. It proves them as liars. Every little piece of credibility that is chipped away only lends strength to the possible revolution.
The images from today will change a lot in this situation. The past week was far more civil than today. Today was absolutely horrible. That woman, that video it really embodies the day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cant_Be_Faded
Quote:
Originally Posted by jman3000
I like what he said. Better late than never. I still don't quite see how Obama saying this earlier would have been detrimental. If Bush was still POTUS, maybe, but I think the younger generation of Iranians know better. How does anyone know that these young people aren't, in part, inspired by Obama? After all, he did make a youtube video aimed directly at them.