Bloody day in Iran

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Originally Posted by Extra Stout

The spectacle of unarmed, peaceful protesters getting beaten or killed by agents of the state has led to social change repeatedly in recent history. The mechanism is that the flagrant demonstration of injustice by the existing regime against its own people drives other power brokers who already were skeptical of the regime's legitimacy over the edge to exact revolution or at least substantial reform.

In the case of Iran, a significant minority of the clerics who lead the country doubt the legitimacy of Ali Khameini's leadership. Rather than being a spiritual leader who sits above the fray, he has revealed himself as a partisan who will knock as many skulls together as necessary to stay in power. He may no longer have enough sway to keep the other clerics from deposing him, especially if they have friends in the army or (even better) the Revolutionary Guard.

Supposedly in the Iranian system the Supreme Leader is supposed to be the religious scholar who is wisest in the ways of Islam. Khameini's credentials always were suspect; his power was derived from his influence among the military leadership. This influence is alleged to have eroded significantly. Furthermore, many clerics have come to doubt whether except in exceptional cases a single man can be wise or incorruptible enough to be entrusted with that much power; many favor spreading power more widely among Guardian Council members.

This uprising is another chapter in what has been so far a twelve-year struggle for reform in the Islamic Republic. Khameini has been immovable as he has thwarted every attempt at reform, but he may be running out of chess pieces. We shall see.

However, your take on the situation probably ought to be etched in stone as the rallying cry of 21st-century American youth. It serves as a poignant juxtaposition to what is evident on the streets of Tehran. But don't etch it in granite or marble or any stone like that. Maybe sandstone.

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Peaceful protest can work if dealing with reasonable people, or if you have a big friend who can protect you. The US and other nations have thus far shown they are unwilling to protect the protesters, both historically and currently, and Iran's leadership has not proved reasonable. I would argue that while likely more costly in overall human life, if you truly want revolutionary change, then you will have to revolt. If you want gradual change, then in my opinion, protest isn't that effective. Its a middle ground, that combines the worst of both IMO, being slow, and dangerous to life.

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Originally Posted by sam1617

Peaceful protest can work if dealing with reasonable people, or if you have a big friend who can protect you. The US and other nations have thus far shown they are unwilling to protect the protesters, both historically and currently, and Iran's leadership has not proved reasonable. I would argue that while likely more costly in overall human life, if you truly want revolutionary change, then you will have to revolt. If you want gradual change, then in my opinion, protest isn't that effective. Its a middle ground, that combines the worst of both IMO, being slow, and dangerous to life.

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Absolutely not. The goal is to effect change, period. You, being an American, see peaceful protest in the face of death and dismemberment as a waste of time/waste of life/waste of resource.

While that may be true, it is not true to those in Iran who seek change of their own brand.

While I am of the mind that if this were happening in my homeland, I would be with you in the thinking that peaceful protest engaged with brutal law enforcement is a waste of time and that we would be far better served meeting fire with fire, such is the life of others.

Truthfully, these world events solidify the 2nd amendment. I have no delusions that if the US military entered my hometown streets with blood on their minds, that mine would probably spill. But damnit, Im taking some of them with me come hell or high water. This Tehran affair speaks to the boldness of a military who knowingly engages an unarmed populace. Theyre brave, brash and brutal.

I believe their actions and progress would be severly slowed and maybe even completely undermined if they knew that large group of people who outnumber me 20:1 were all armed with AK47s with extra clips. Accuracy, training and field medals arent too important at that stage.

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Originally Posted by Extra Stout

However, your take on the situation probably ought to be etched in stone as the rallying cry of 21st-century American youth. It serves as a poignant juxtaposition to what is evident on the streets of Tehran. But don't etch it in granite or marble or any stone like that. Maybe sandstone.

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You know, I sometimes still associate "21st Century Youth of America" with myself.

Then I realize I am one year shy of 30 and I dont wear girl pants.

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Originally Posted by DarkReign

Absolutely not. The goal is to effect change, period. You, being an American, see peaceful protest in the face of death and dismemberment as a waste of time/waste of life/waste of resource.

While that may be true, it is not true to those in Iran who seek change of their own brand.

While I am of the mind that if this were happening in my homeland, I would be with you in the thinking that peaceful protest engaged with brutal law enforcement is a waste of time and that we would be far better served meeting fire with fire, such is the life of others.

Truthfully, these world events solidify the 2nd amendment. I have no delusions that if the US military entered my hometown streets with blood on their minds, that mine would probably spill. But damnit, Im taking some of them with me come hell or high water. This Tehran affair speaks to the boldness of a military who knowingly engages an unarmed populace. Theyre brave, brash and brutal.

I believe their actions and progress would be severly slowed and maybe even completely undermined if they knew that large group of people who outnumber me 20:1 were all armed with AK47s with extra clips. Accuracy, training and field medals arent too important at that stage.

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I agree with you about the 2nd amendment, thats for damn sure.

As for the finding value in sacrificing life for no tangible gain, your right, it seems like a damned waste to get killed while doing nothing. It would be different if there was an organized effort involved in the protests, but they seem like they have no method or plan. Just go out, confront police, get killed. It just doesn't make sense... :depressed

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Originally Posted by sam1617

I agree with you about the 2nd amendment, thats for damn sure.

As for the finding value in sacrificing life for no tangible gain, your right, it seems like a damned waste to get killed while doing nothing. It would be different if there was an organized effort involved in the protests, but they seem like they have no method or plan. Just go out, confront police, get killed. It just doesn't make sense... :depressed

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The history books are filled with revolutions, some violent, some peaceful. It's tough to say what will motivate people to support change.

Heating up again.