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DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
Justice Agency Slams UBS's Defense in Tax Case
By BRENT KENDALL
WASHINGTON -- The Justice Department attacked legal arguments made by Swiss banking giant UBS AG, which is trying to fend off the U.S. government's attempt to obtain the identities of tens of thousands of the bank's U.S. customers with secret Swiss accounts.
UBS reached a deal with federal authorities in February to avoid criminal prosecution for helping U.S. clients hide their accounts from the Internal Revenue Service. As part of that settlement, UBS agreed to pay $780 million in penalties and restitution and promised to disclose the identities of about 250 U.S. customers.
A day later, the Justice Department asked a federal judge in Miami to enforce an IRS summons seeking the identities of as many as 52,000 U.S. customers who allegedly hid their UBS accounts.
Government lawyers said in a court brief filed on Tuesday that UBS had a weak case for clinging to Swiss banking secrecy, because the bank knowingly and intentionally helped tens of thousands of wealthy Americans evade hundreds of millions of dollars in taxes.
"Any hardship that UBS might face from refusing to comply with a court order here is a hardship that it brought upon itself," the Justice Department said in a 55-page court filing. "It is time for UBS to face the rest of the consequences that it has brought upon itself."
UBS has said it can't provide information to U.S. tax collectors because the move would violate Swiss privacy laws that prohibit the disclosure to third parties information about Swiss bank accounts.
The bank also has argued that the high-stakes dispute should be resolved diplomatically between the Swiss and U.S. governments instead of in U.S. courts.
"Our position remains that the enforcement of the summons would require UBS to violate Swiss law and is inconsistent with treaty frameworks," UBS spokeswoman Karina Byrne said on Tuesday.
Ms. Byrne said the bank has sought to comply with the summons and has given the IRS "as much information as it can."
Some observers have suggested in recent days that UBS and the Justice Department might be nearing a settlement, but the government's strongly worded court filing on Tuesday gave no hint of that.
Ms. Byrne said reports of a possible settlement in the case "are speculative and possible settlement amounts that have recently been reported have no basis."
The Justice Department dismissed the bank's statement that it had made a good-faith effort to comply with the IRS summons. "The notion that UBS has always acted in 'good faith' to comply with U.S. law ... bears all the hallmarks of an 11th-hour confession, made in the hopes the sinner will be absolved from the full consequences of his wrongdoing," the department said.
A court hearing on the dispute is scheduled for July 13.
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
I dont know what to think about this...
One one hand, you have people hiding their money from the government. Not exactly something I condemn.
On the other, the names are probably every rich WASP from here to DC and I would like nothing more than to see them fucked over.
On principal, I'll go with option A.
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
The timing may be inopportune for conviction, but opportune for voluntary settlement. A few baddies will receive exemplary official attention before they go to jail and pay large fines. Most will settle, I guess.
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
An estimate I saw is that US citizens have $1.5T stashed/hidden in overseas accounts.
If the IRS really gets these criminals, it will make the Madoff ripoff looks like chump change.
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
Quote:
Originally Posted by
boutons_deux
An estimate I saw is that US citizens have $1.5T stashed/hidden in overseas accounts.
If the IRS really gets these criminals, it will make the Madoff ripoff looks like chump change.
I was thinking they might find more of Madoff's money!
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
Quote:
Originally Posted by
boutons_deux
An estimate I saw is that US citizens have $1.5T stashed/hidden in overseas accounts.
If the IRS really gets these criminals, it will make the Madoff ripoff looks like chump change.
The estates must be preserved intact for the government to get the most of them...
...though this would not preclude the occasional forfeiture, prompted perhaps by the heinousness of the underlying action.
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
Quote:
Originally Posted by
boutons_deux
An estimate I saw is that US citizens have $1.5T stashed/hidden in overseas accounts.
If the IRS really gets these criminals, it will make the Madoff ripoff looks like chump change.
You mean these people should be accountable for their money when government itself is not?
Uncle Sam you sonofabitch.
Jk Bro, don't audit me.
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
Switzerland threatens to seize UBS client info.
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
Well, Switzerland has the right to do as the please. They have been know for as long as I ca recall, a place to hide money. I believe they will do all they can to protect that reputation.
As for the money. Who wouldn't want to hide money from a thieving government. One more reason to move to a consumption based tax system. Then everyone who get paid under the table gets taxed when they make purchases, and you get taxed on what you can actually afford rather than what you cannot.
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
VAT? How uncharacteristically euro of you, WC. :lol
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Winehole23
VAT? How uncharacteristically euro of you, WC. :lol
Not the same type of consumption tax as a VAT, but The Fair Tax.
Haven't you learned yet not to read into my words? Both the VAT and The Fair tax are types of consumption taxes. They have differences. However, I would prefer a VAT over our current income tax system.
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
It really needs four times the cosponsors than it has to get anywhere. Congress would lose their power over the people if they passed such a tax code.
Sponsor: Rep Linder, John [GA-7] (introduced 1/6/2009)
Cosponsors:
Rep Akin, W. Todd [MO-2] - 1/6/2009
Rep Alexander, Rodney [LA-5] - 1/6/2009
Rep Bachus, Spencer [AL-6] - 1/6/2009
Rep Barrett, J. Gresham [SC-3] - 6/8/2009
Rep Bartlett, Roscoe G. [MD-6] - 1/6/2009
Rep Bilbray, Brian P. [CA-50] - 1/6/2009
Rep Bilirakis, Gus M. [FL-9] - 5/21/2009
Rep Bishop, Rob [UT-1] - 3/12/2009
Rep Boren, Dan [OK-2] - 5/14/2009
Rep Brady, Kevin [TX-8] - 1/6/2009
Rep Broun, Paul C. [GA-10] - 2/24/2009
Rep Brown, Henry E., Jr. [SC-1] - 1/6/2009
Rep Brown-Waite, Ginny [FL-5] - 1/6/2009
Rep Burton, Dan [IN-5] - 1/6/2009
Rep Carter, John R. [TX-31] - 1/6/2009
Rep Conaway, K. Michael [TX-11] - 1/6/2009
Rep Crenshaw, Ander [FL-4] - 1/23/2009
Rep Culberson, John Abney [TX-7] - 1/6/2009
Rep Deal, Nathan [GA-9] - 1/6/2009
Rep Duncan, John J., Jr. [TN-2] - 1/6/2009
Rep Fallin, Mary [OK-5] - 1/6/2009
Rep Fleming, John [LA-4] - 3/12/2009
Rep Franks, Trent [AZ-2] - 1/6/2009
Rep Gingrey, Phil [GA-11] - 1/6/2009
Rep Graves, Sam [MO-6] - 2/25/2009
Rep Hensarling, Jeb [TX-5] - 1/6/2009
Rep Issa, Darrell E. [CA-49] - 1/9/2009
Rep Jenkins, Lynn [KS-2] - 2/24/2009
Rep King, Steve [IA-5] - 1/6/2009
Rep Kingston, Jack [GA-1] - 1/6/2009
Rep Kline, John [MN-2] - 3/12/2009
Rep Lamborn, Doug [CO-5] - 1/6/2009
Rep Lucas, Frank D. [OK-3] - 1/6/2009
Rep McCaul, Michael T. [TX-10] - 1/6/2009
Rep Mica, John L. [FL-7] - 1/9/2009
Rep Miller, Gary G. [CA-42] - 1/14/2009
Rep Miller, Jeff [FL-1] - 1/27/2009
Rep Moran, Jerry [KS-1] - 1/13/2009
Rep Myrick, Sue Wilkins [NC-9] - 1/8/2009
Rep Neugebauer, Randy [TX-19] - 1/6/2009
Rep Olson, Pete [TX-22] - 1/26/2009
Rep Pence, Mike [IN-6] - 1/6/2009
Rep Poe, Ted [TX-2] - 1/6/2009
Rep Posey, Bill [FL-15] - 1/27/2009
Rep Price, Tom [GA-6] - 1/6/2009
Rep Roe, David P. [TN-1] - 4/21/2009
Rep Stearns, Cliff [FL-6] - 1/6/2009
Rep Sullivan, John [OK-1] - 1/6/2009
Rep Thornberry, Mac [TX-13] - 1/6/2009
Rep Tiahrt, Todd [KS-4] - 1/6/2009
Rep Wamp, Zach [TN-3] - 3/12/2009
Rep Westmoreland, Lynn A. [GA-3] - 1/6/2009
Rep Whitfield, Ed [KY-1] - 2/3/2009
Rep Wittman, Robert J. [VA-1] - 1/6/2009
Rep Young, Don [AK] - 1/6/2009
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Winehole23
What bill, please?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Wild Cobra
Not the same type of consumption tax as a VAT, but
The Fair Tax.
Haven't you learned yet not to read into my words? Both the VAT and The Fair tax are types of consumption taxes. They have differences. However, I would prefer a VAT over our current income tax system.
Also known as H. R. 25
The are even two books out explaining it:
The Fair Tax
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
it took me 2 seconds with google.
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
Have I been careless about posting links?
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Wild Cobra
Thanks, WC. I appreciate the links.
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
The Fair Tax will NEVER happen.
The tax system is too rigged now in factor of the wealthy and capitalists.
They won't ever let anybody (aka Congress) move their cheese.
Same with reducing health care costs, which are also health care revenues for the health care system players. Ain't gonna happen. US health care is screwed up because people screwed it up and want it screwed up.
Isn't the Boortz the hate-radio scumbag who said Muslims are like cockroaches, they come out after dark to eat?
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
I'm not sure how the VAT would help much. It would move/keep a lot of the economy underground and lead to draconian measures to track the movement of money.
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
Oh goodie, a tax methodology circle jerk. How about dropping the welfare-warfare state and enjoying some liberty?
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
I'm thinking the drinking club is the ideal political unit. Otherwise, who would ever come?
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
It also weeds out the weak livers.
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
Works for me. Shouldn't we be suspicious of more complex arrangements?
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
When the party evolves beyond the bounds of the club, it becomes unwieldy and relatively impervious to democratic steering.
At that time, the original drinking club can resume its faith in the cantina, as the dead head of the first generation of true partisans.
Quote:
(Naut.) a rough block of wood used as an anchor buoy.- Morley.
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
WE NEED RULES. How could we possibly expect new members to act appropriately?
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
Firm, arbitrary rules.
No cargo pants.
No soft drinks shall be used, except as mixers.
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
Reading assignments, homework and oral reports are strongly encouraged for all club members; official business will be conducted from time to time consisting in pars of the reports and discussions of the literary arm of the party.
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
What should we do about the commoners?
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
Mingle among them with a superior air.
I'm proposing the hipsterish Moose Lodge in Austin as a watering hole.
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Winehole23
Mingle among them with a superior air.
But sometimes they get carried away and burn clubs down.
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
We could require sidearms if you like.
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
We could have a rifle club, too.
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
Here's what we do. We make them think they are a member of the club. We start by setting up a special class to initiate them in the traditions of the club, but they never really learn what the club's about. However, we'll collect dues. That will keep them in their place and make them useful.
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
Too abstract. You have to base it on the drinking.
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
We can also create cool symbols, songs, salutes, and chants for the club.
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
Fair enough, we'll drink Samuel Smith ale and we'll let them drink Keystone Light out of old Smith bottles. But they'll think it's the real thing.
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
Collection of borderline extortionate dues will restrict participation by all but the most zealous and the most sincere, as you may have just suggested.
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Marcus Bryant
Fair enough, we'll drink Samuel Smith ale and we'll let them drink Keystone Light out of old Smith bottles. But they'll think it's the real thing.
I'm ok with the captain's secret stash. But I think you misunderestimate Austin hipsterdom, MB: they're drinking fools.
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Marcus Bryant
We can also create cool symbols, songs, salutes, and chants for the club.
Lawn sports (beer-in-hand croquet, beer in hand bocce) and washers. Drinking games.
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
We are here
We drink beer
If you don't drink
You are a weak link
So GTFO of here
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
You better be careful what you say, else you get a class action lawsuit from the weak-livered. Also, keeping a secret stash is exactly what is getting these UBS account holders in trouble. You must be sure to keep it supersecret.
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
The weak livered can meet us in person do discuss the matter, if their beer isn't strong enough. Why threaten a lawsuit right off the bat?
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
*We're not like that at the Moose*.
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
If you are like that, you may not fit in.
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Marcus Bryant
We make them think they are a member of the club. We start by setting up a special class to initiate them in the traditions of the club, but they never really learn what the club's about. However, we'll collect dues. That will keep them in their place and make them useful.
Reserve what's excellent and posh for masters esoteric, while milking true believers for all they're worth.
Agreed.
The inculcation of a phony tradition to bind morons and their money to us may prove expedient as you suggest, but it sounds like tedious work, and it could easily misfire. Maybe we could outsource that, and not be contaminated by it at all.
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
I demand a public committee be convened for the inspection of aged rum.
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Winehole23
Firm, arbitrary rules.
No cargo pants.
No soft drinks shall be used, except as mixers.
That's an issue.
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ElNono
That's an issue.
It's still in the discussion phase, so nothing's set in stone.
Anyway, special waivers can always be made at the discretion of the members.
:toast
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
Is Scotch accepted at the club?
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
Oh yeah, there's gonna be whiskey.
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
Is the Moose considered a "social setting". I only drink at those.
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
100%. It's a bar plus meeting hall plus clubhouse.
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
Do you live in Austin, ElNono?
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Winehole23
Do you live in Austin, ElNono?
No, but I can run the Garden State branch.
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Winehole23
Justice Agency Slams UBS's Defense in Tax Case
By BRENT KENDALL
WASHINGTON -- The Justice Department attacked legal arguments made by Swiss banking giant
UBS AG, which is trying to fend off the U.S. government's attempt to obtain the identities of tens of thousands of the bank's U.S. customers with secret Swiss accounts.
UBS reached a deal with federal authorities in February to avoid criminal prosecution for helping U.S. clients hide their accounts from the Internal Revenue Service. As part of that settlement, UBS agreed to pay $780 million in penalties and restitution and promised to disclose the identities of about 250 U.S. customers.
A day later, the Justice Department asked a federal judge in Miami to enforce an IRS summons seeking the identities of as many as 52,000 U.S. customers who allegedly hid their UBS accounts.
Government lawyers said in a court brief filed on Tuesday that UBS had a weak case for clinging to Swiss banking secrecy, because the bank knowingly and intentionally helped tens of thousands of wealthy Americans evade hundreds of millions of dollars in taxes.
"Any hardship that UBS might face from refusing to comply with a court order here is a hardship that it brought upon itself," the Justice Department said in a 55-page court filing. "It is time for UBS to face the rest of the consequences that it has brought upon itself."
UBS has said it can't provide information to U.S. tax collectors because the move would violate Swiss privacy laws that prohibit the disclosure to third parties information about Swiss bank accounts.
The bank also has argued that the high-stakes dispute should be resolved diplomatically between the Swiss and U.S. governments instead of in U.S. courts.
"Our position remains that the enforcement of the summons would require UBS to violate Swiss law and is inconsistent with treaty frameworks," UBS spokeswoman Karina Byrne said on Tuesday.
Ms. Byrne said the bank has sought to comply with the summons and has given the IRS "as much information as it can."
Some observers have suggested in recent days that UBS and the Justice Department might be nearing a settlement, but the government's strongly worded court filing on Tuesday gave no hint of that.
Ms. Byrne said reports of a possible settlement in the case "are speculative and possible settlement amounts that have recently been reported have no basis."
The Justice Department dismissed the bank's statement that it had made a good-faith effort to comply with the IRS summons. "The notion that UBS has always acted in 'good faith' to comply with U.S. law ... bears all the hallmarks of an 11th-hour confession, made in the hopes the sinner will be absolved from the full consequences of his wrongdoing," the department said.
A court hearing on the dispute is scheduled for July 13.
http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130839
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
Quote:
whottt exposes WH23's senility .
Quelle horreur!
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Winehole23
Do you like aged rum?
Depends. If I'm in Cuba I do.
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
We should live vicariously to ourselves.
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
banks pay a settlement, will disclose cross-border activities, and dodge criminal charges:
Quote:
Three Swiss banks dodged criminal prosecution for helping U.S. citizens to evade taxes through offshore bank accounts by agreeing to close the accounts and disclose cross-border activities, the Justice Department said Tuesday.
Credit Agricole Suisse, Dreyfus Sons & Co. and Baumann & Cie resolved potential criminal liability actions through the Justice Department's Swiss Bank Program, which allows Swiss banks to duck tax-related criminal actions in connection with U.S. tax evaders who have stashed money in their banks.
In their nonprosecution agreements with the feds, the three banks agreed to cooperate in future criminal and civil proceedings against tax dodgers, put controls in place to stop evaders from depositing money with them and pay a collective penalty of over $130 million.
All Swiss banks that join the program also agree to report cross-border activities to the U.S. government, provide detailed information on U.S. accountholders, tattle on other banks that have transferred funds into secret accounts and close the tax evaders' accounts.
According to the Justice Department, Credit Agricole Suisse maintained 954 legal and illegal bank accounts since 2008, valued at over $1.8 billion. The bank agreed to pay $99.2 million in penalties.
Dreyfus & Sons held 855 U.S.-related accounts with a combined value of $1.76 billion, and will pay over $24 million in penalties.
Baumann maintained 167 U.S. accounts valued at $514 million and owes $7.7 million in penalties.
http://www.courthousenews.com/2015/1...ax-evaders.htm
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
it's the end of Swiss banking as we knew it
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
why haven't the 52K or whatever tax-evading Americans been "slut walked", named-and-shamed, their mug shots published in daily newspapers like common criminals?
I'll always assume assume Bishop Gecko got caught, which explains why he refused to release his tax returns to Queen Ann's "You People"
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
Swiss disclosure has knock-ons in Israel and Singapore:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...ngapore-israel
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Re: DOJ orders UBS to disclose 52,000 names in tax fraud investigation
UBS "whistleblower" Birkenfeld writes a book and testifies about UBS in French court:
Quote:
The tax evasion controversy, which was first highlighted in 2005, subsequently involved the US Department of Justice, the State Department and Internal Revenue Service. It was prompted by disclosures made by Birkenfeld that UBS had helped wealthy US citizens evade taxes using offshore financial vehicles and Swiss-numbered accounts.
In 2009, UBS paid $780m (£588m, €693m) to US authorities to avoid prosecution.
Birkenfeld served 31 months in prison for one count of conspiracy to abet tax evasion by one of his clients. After he was released he was paid a record $104m by the IRS for helping recover unpaid taxes.
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/ubs-whistle...-obama-1577834
