Fuel tax could be replaced with by-the-mile road tax

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/nation/story/71078.html

Fuel tax could be replaced with by-the-mile road tax

By Steve Everly | The Kansas City Star
Posted on Wednesday, July 1, 2009

The year is 2020 and the gasoline tax is history. In its place you get a monthly tax bill based on each mile you drove — tracked by a Global Positioning System device in your car and uploaded to a billing center.

What once was science fiction is being field-tested by the University of Iowa to iron out the wrinkles should a by-the-mile road tax ever be enacted.

Besides the technological advances making such a tax possible, the idea is getting a hard push from a growing number of transportation experts and officials. That is because the traditional by-the-gallon fuel tax, struggling to keep up with road building and maintenance demands, could fall even farther behind as vehicles' gas mileage rises and more alternative-fuel vehicles come on line.

The idea of shifting to a by-the-mile tax has been discussed for years, but it now appears to be getting more serious attention. A federal commission, after a two-year study, concluded earlier this year that the road tax was the "best path forward" to keep revenues flowing to highway and transportation projects, and could be an important new tool to help manage traffic and relieve congestion.

The decision by the 15-member National Surface Transportation Infrastructure Financing Commission was unanimous, which surprised Robert Atkinson, the group's chairman. But he said it became clear as the commission's work progressed that a road tax on miles traveled was the best option.

"If you're committed to the system being improved then it was a no-brainer," he said.

How long will it take Government Motors to comply?

over 20% of the price of gas is just taxes. I wonder if anyone knows the true amount?

I don't like more Big Brother stuff though.

Bad for traveling salesmen like me.


Plus, it's new.



I don't like it.

Besides not liking any new taxes, I'm not at all thrilled that Big Brother could track my whereabouts.

Cool, more taxes. More play money for the left to buy votes with. Piling tax after tax after tax after tax on the American people. It appears some in D.C. weren't paying attention in their U.S. history classes...

They aren't paying attention to anything but their leftist agenda. There are warning sirens going off everywhere - from Warren Buffet to the CBO - but they are blind, deaf, and definitely dumb to all of them!

It'd be like driving on a toll road... but everywhere.

Fantastic.

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blind, deaf, and definitely dumb

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Wouldn't this hurt those who have better gas mileage?

Anyway... it's all speculation at this point. It'd be impossible to retro fit all cars and the government would be double dipping people who have it installed at the pump and at the wheel. I doubt it goes anywhere.

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Originally Posted by jman3000

Wouldn't this hurt those who have better gas mileage?

Anyway... it's all speculation at this point. I doubt it goes anywhere because it's too intrusive and it'd be impossible to retrofit all cars. It'd be impossible to retro fit all cars and the government would be double dipping with those with it installed at the pump and at the wheel.

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Howabout toll roads? Triple taxation...

The liberals in Oregon have been talking about it for years with resistance. To accomplish it, they want to put a GPS data system in the cars, to track where you drive and tax according to traffic density as well.

Talk about government intrusion... Monitoring where and when you drive!

I'm not for stupid ideas like this, but from a practicality standpoint this is bugging me.

Wouldn't it be a whole lot easier and a whole lot cheaper to just have them check your odometer once a year as another step to getting your car inspection sticker? At least then you could repeal the sales tax immediately, but instead of getting by the mile taxes it would just be 1 lump sum at the end of the year.


Expensive ass GPS units in every damn car. An entirely new bureaucracy in a government billing center.

Retardedly wasteful.

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Originally Posted by jman3000

Wouldn't it be a whole lot easier and a whole lot cheaper to just have them check your odometer once a year as another step to getting your car inspection sticker? At least then you could repeal the sales tax immediately, but instead of getting by the mile taxes it would just be 1 lump sum at the end of the year.


Expensive ass GPS units in every damn car. An entirely new bureaucracy in a government billing center.

Retardedly wasteful.

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You have no place in government.

Being taxed by the mile is against my religion and I demand the Federal Government respect my beliefs.


They have been trying to get this through (Rhode Island, etc) for years.

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Originally Posted by SnakeBoy

You have no place in government.

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ha... I'm actually interviewing for an internship at DHS next week : p

i actually thought about this right when all this cap and trade talk began early last year, and actually i'm kinda freaked out that it might be something not far fetched now. it's actually the idea that jman came up with, but i just thought of registration. inspection you can buy fakes 'cause cops don't have the info that your inspection is expire. they have to rely on sight of the design of the sticker, but it's easy to counterfeit. expired registrations can be accessed pulling up your license number. believe me. i know.


another thing, carbon tax related, i thought about then is they would somehow tax us for doing barbeques. on wood, charcoal, propane. i can imagine how much more expensive barbeque restaurants would get. more and more i can see that easily happen...........and some of you keep on with the R against D debate......

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Originally Posted by Viva Las Espuelas

another thing, carbon tax related, i thought about then is they would somehow tax us for doing barbeques. on wood, charcoal, propane. i can imagine how much more expensive barbeque restaurants would get. more and more i can see that easily happen...........and some of you keep on with the R against D debate......

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Uhm... cooking with gas or electricity uses energy too. I'm pretty sure the government won't get their hands messy with people's backyard barbecues, or even barbecue restaurants.

I'll throw in my two cents that I'm leery of this GPS system too. As it is, people who drive more have to buy more gasoline. Plus, it's a built-in incentive now to get a car that has better MPG.

Not only that, insurance companies could directly asses how many miles you drove last year by that data and adjust your policy accordingly.
Or police could tell if you were speeding if you went from point A to point B in an amount of time smaller than what it should really be if you were doing the posted speed limit.

Where does it stop?

Just raise the damn gas tax and be done with it. There's no issues with the government tracking everyone's whereabouts, the infrastructure to collect the taxes already exists, you don't have to worry about not collecting tax revenue from out of state vehicles who aren't hooked up to the GPS, you don't have to worry about people not paying their tax bill, and it provides an extra incentive for people to drive fuel efficient cars.

Yeah, I certainly don't approve of the GPS driven by-the-mile tax idea. I have no interest in effectively being lo-jacked at all times. It's stupid to give up that much privacy.

They should definitely change vehicle registration fees to scale inversely with gas mileage, and I would love to see a by-the-mile tax replace the gas tax provided it is done with GPS (or anything that violates privacy).

Of course, a by-the-mile tax has to keep fuel efficient cars cheaper than other cars to operate, otherwise it defeats the purpose.

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

Uhm... cooking with gas or electricity uses energy too. I'm pretty sure the government won't get their hands messy with people's backyard barbecues, or even barbecue restaurants.

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let's just wait and see and then come back to this.

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Originally Posted by Viva Las Espuelas

let's just wait and see and then come back to this.

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Sure! I'm down for that.

On a side note, I think it's interesting that no one on the boards thinks this is a good idea. :lol

I'm starting to grow weary of this whole "United States of America" thing.

just great... :rolleyes

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Originally Posted by ElNono

Not only that, insurance companies could directly asses how many miles you drove last year by that data and adjust your policy accordingly.
Or police could tell if you were speeding if you went from point A to point B in an amount of time smaller than what it should really be if you were doing the posted speed limit.

Where does it stop?

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You're not taking this far enough AT ALL.

Insurance companies could have real time access to the travel "grid", and track where you are, and how fast you are driving RIGHT NOW.

Cops could simply ding your bank account (or credit card if ur broke), the INSTANT you exceed a speed limit, and for every second you remain over it. Run a stop sign? Caught.

There could be a database that knows the location of your vehicle every minute of every day....adulterers & slackers beware; your wife/boss might be able to get at those records......

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Originally Posted by 101A

You're not taking this far enough AT ALL.

Insurance companies could have real time access to the travel "grid", and track where you are, and how fast you are driving RIGHT NOW.

Cops could simply ding your bank account (or credit card if ur broke), the INSTANT you exceed a speed limit, and for every second you remain over it. Run a stop sign? Caught.

There could be a database that knows the location of your vehicle every minute of every day....adulterers & slackers beware; your wife/boss might be able to get at those records......

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Got a toll tag? They can do this to you already.

This discussion should have ended a while ago.

None of this shit is gonna come to fruition.

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Originally Posted by jman3000

This discussion should have ended a while ago.

None of this shit is gonna come to fruition.

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Don't be so sure. Texas is studying this too.

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Originally Posted by coyotes_geek

Just raise the damn gas tax and be done with it. There's no issues with the government tracking everyone's whereabouts...

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I'm surprised to hear you say this, CG. Did you just get exasperated, or do you really mean it?

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Originally Posted by coyotes_geek

... the infrastructure to collect the taxes already exists, you don't have to worry about not collecting tax revenue from out of state vehicles who aren't hooked up to the GPS, you don't have to worry about people not paying their tax bill, and it provides an extra incentive for people to drive fuel efficient cars.

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The efficiencies are clear enough. Again, I'm just surprised you're the one arguing for them, given the official penetration of everyday life they presume.

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Originally Posted by 101A

Insurance companies could have real time access to the travel "grid", and track where you are, and how fast you are driving RIGHT NOW.

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That they do not yet stands out prominently to me.

Am I wrong about this, 101?

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Originally Posted by coyotes_geek

Just raise the damn gas tax and be done with it. There's no issues with the government tracking everyone's whereabouts, the infrastructure to collect the taxes already exists, you don't have to worry about not collecting tax revenue from out of state vehicles who aren't hooked up to the GPS, you don't have to worry about people not paying their tax bill, and it provides an extra incentive for people to drive fuel efficient cars.

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Oh come on, the Messiah and his Democratic minions are great. Everyone should get on board this statist bandwagon, it's the only way to stick it to the evil corporations and big oil [/leftist trash]

Talk about civil rights being violated. The Government will know everywhere u go. People who bitched about Bush wire taping....go fuck urself for not saying shit about this. People who bitch about ur car being searched..go fuck yourself too.

Obama is one dumb motherfucker.

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Originally Posted by Winehole23

I'm surprised to hear you say this, CG. Did you just get exasperated, or do you really mean it?

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Not sure I follow. In other discussions have I been giving off the impression that I'm in favor of the government tracking people's movements? I'm not btw.

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The efficiencies are clear enough. Again, I'm just surprised you're the one arguing for them, given the official penetration of everyday life they presume.

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Our transportation infrastructure is horribly underfunded. We need it, we want it, so we've got to pay for it. Right now we're not paying enough. I know I'm anti-tax on most other things, but infrastructure is on the short list of things I do believe the government has to be involved in. And given it's importance in how we're able to live the way we do, it's something that is worth spending money on.

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Originally Posted by Winehole23

That they do not yet stands out prominently to me.

Am I wrong about this, 101?

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Don't do any p/c insurance, but I assume you ask me because you remember my occupation is related to insurance; but from the underwriter's mindset, I can answer your question:

Insurance companies want to know EVERYTHING they can to underwrite risk accurately; if they could know that (technological and regulatory hurdles all cleared), they would.

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Originally Posted by coyotes_geek

Got a toll tag? They can do this to you already.

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I thought the toll tag was only read via radio waves at the toll booth itself?

I don't think there's GPS technology in that thing.

How EZ Pass works

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Originally Posted by jack sommerset

Talk about civil rights being violated. The Government will know everywhere u go. People who bitched about Bush wire taping....go fuck urself for not saying shit about this. People who bitch about ur car being searched..go fuck yourself too.

Obama is one dumb motherfucker.

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:lol speaking of one dumb motherfucker.

Welcome to the thread. You should have read the article and the posts first.

Thanks.

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Originally Posted by 101A

I thought the toll tag was only read via radio waves at the toll booth itself?

I don't think there's GPS technology in that thing.

How EZ Pass works

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I think he just means that it shows each location you pass through on the tollroad, so in effect they have a rudimentary idea of your travel about the city (at least on the toll roads).

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Originally Posted by 101A

Don't do any p/c insurance, but I assume you ask me because you remember my occupation is related to insurance; but from the underwriter's mindset, I can answer your question:

Insurance companies want to know EVERYTHING they can to underwrite risk accurately; if they could know that (technological and regulatory hurdles all cleared), they would.

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Not to mention employers and creditors.

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

On a side note, I think it's interesting that no one on the boards thinks this is a good idea. :lol

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i'm really not campaigning for the popularity vote, dude.

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Originally Posted by 101A

I thought the toll tag was only read via radio waves at the toll booth itself?

I don't think there's GPS technology in that thing.

How EZ Pass works

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There isn't GPS in those, but you don't need it. Say there's two toll booths 1 mile apart and the speed limit is 60 mph. The tolling equipment records the time you went through the booth, down to the .01 of a second. If you cross through the second toll booth less than a minute after you crossed through the first one, you were obviously speeding. It wouldn't be any trouble at all to have a computer just spit out speeding tickets to anyone who covered that distance in 50 seconds (equates to 72 mph) or less. It also wouldn't be any trouble to set up the monitoring equipment on any non-toll road and do the same thing.

edit: Just for more useless info, even though the technology to do something like this already exists, toll authorities have resisted doing something like this because they want people driving the roads and paying tolls. People won't do that if they're getting tickets mailed to them. However, toll authorities are all quasi-public entities and there could come a day where governments start leaning on them to do some kind of automated speed enforcement as a source of revenue.

The flip side is that there will probably be a new very lucrative business that hacks and modifies GPS devices. It will probably be declared illegal ASAP, but hey, it will generate some jobs! :lol

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Originally Posted by jman3000

I'm not for stupid ideas like this, but from a practicality standpoint this is bugging me.

Wouldn't it be a whole lot easier and a whole lot cheaper to just have them check your odometer once a year as another step to getting your car inspection sticker? At least then you could repeal the sales tax immediately, but instead of getting by the mile taxes it would just be 1 lump sum at the end of the year.


Expensive ass GPS units in every damn car. An entirely new bureaucracy in a government billing center.

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Yes, but then they cannot track your activities. Like Viva Las Espuelas points out, other methods are easy to cheat. Odometers can be rolled back, or changed. The only thing that will work at this level of government control is a tamper-proof piece of data recording equipment. I find it ironic that liberals complain about the Patriot Act, which has practical national security usages, then think it's right to track people's mileage for taxes.

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Originally Posted by Viva Las Espuelas

another thing, carbon tax related, i thought about then is they would somehow tax us for doing barbeques. on wood, charcoal, propane. i can imagine how much more expensive barbeque restaurants would get. more and more i can see that easily happen...........and some of you keep on with the R against D debate......

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There would probably be carbon taxes on both the briquettes and starter fluids, except I think they would more likely outlaw that form, only allowing gas grills that meet new emission standards, and tax that fuel too.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

Not only that, insurance companies could directly asses how many miles you drove last year by that data and adjust your policy accordingly.
Or police could tell if you were speeding if you went from point A to point B in an amount of time smaller than what it should really be if you were doing the posted speed limit.

Where does it stop?

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Absolutely. Any form of data recording can also be subpoenaed for courts. Maybe to check on alibis, traffic accidents, vehicle speed for speeding tickets, etc.

Do we really want a 'black box' in our cars like aircraft are required to have?

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Originally Posted by coyotes_geek

There isn't GPS in those, but you don't need it. Say there's two toll booths 1 mile apart and the speed limit is 60 mph. The tolling equipment records the time you went through the booth, down to the .01 of a second. If you cross through the second toll booth less than a minute after you crossed through the first one, you were obviously speeding. It wouldn't be any trouble at all to have a computer just spit out speeding tickets to anyone who covered that distance in 50 seconds (equates to 72 mph) or less. It also wouldn't be any trouble to set up the monitoring equipment on any non-toll road and do the same thing.

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Agreed.

I say if they are hellbent on a mileage tax, tax the tires by wear life.

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Originally Posted by Viva Las Espuelas

i'm really not campaigning for the popularity vote, dude.

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That wasn't just in response to you. That's why I labled it a "side note". As in, not related to our discussion.

Take a chill pill Viva. Not everything is about you. :)

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Originally Posted by Aggie Hoopsfan

Oh come on, the Messiah and his Democratic minions are great. Everyone should get on board this statist bandwagon, it's the only way to stick it to the evil corporations and big oil [/leftist trash]

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Originally Posted by jack sommerset

Talk about civil rights being violated. The Government will know everywhere u go. People who bitched about Bush wire taping....go fuck urself for not saying shit about this. People who bitch about ur car being searched..go fuck yourself too.

Obama is one dumb motherfucker.

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

I find it ironic that liberals complain about the Patriot Act, which has practical national security usages, then think it's right to track people's mileage for taxes.

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Could any of the people on these boards calling out 'lefties' for supporting this, please show where any of the board lefties are supporting this?

Anyone?

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

Could any of the people on these boards calling out 'lefties' for supporting this, please show where any of the board lefties are supporting this?

Anyone?

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My thoughts exactly...

EDIT: And the faux indignation at the abuses of the Patriot Act at this point is laughable...

I'm going to make like Wal-Mart and Roll back the prmilesces. :bking

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Originally Posted by coyotes_geek

Not sure I follow. In other discussions have I been giving off the impression that I'm in favor of the government tracking people's movements? I'm not btw.

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Fair enough. But the following graf raises the question again IMO, if implicitly.

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Originally Posted by coyotes_geek

Our transportation infrastructure is horribly underfunded. We need it, we want it, so we've got to pay for it. Right now we're not paying enough. I know I'm anti-tax on most other things, but infrastructure is on the short list of things I do believe the government has to be involved in. And given it's importance in how we're able to live the way we do, it's something that is worth spending money on.

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This is eminently reasonable and prudential, and I agree with you.

But a tax with a toll tag?

Rly?

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Originally Posted by coyotes_geek

Our transportation infrastructure is horribly underfunded. We need it, we want it, so we've got to pay for it. Right now we're not paying enough. I know I'm anti-tax on most other things, but infrastructure is on the short list of things I do believe the government has to be involved in. And given it's importance in how we're able to live the way we do, it's something that is worth spending money on.

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I agree. We need to fund the roads more money. Gasoline taxes have not increased with the cost of living, labor, or whatever standard you want to use in most states. The federal gas tax is 18.4 cents per gallon, and for how long now? I don't know. Revenue for road taxes is actually decreasing over the years per mile driven as well with more fuel efficient vehicles.

I am all for raising both state and federal gas taxes, then placing an annual increase that follows the CPI, or some other index. It has a condition however. Fuel taxes are for roads only. Not to pay for mass transit. We have such deteriorating roads here in Portland partially because the fuel taxes are being used to fund rail transportation.

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Originally Posted by Winehole23

Fair enough. But the following graf raises the question again IMO, if implicitly.

This is eminently reasonable and prudential, and I agree with you.

But a tax with a toll tag?

Rly?

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Sorry, you're losing me again. I support raising the taxes per gallon we pay at the pump. I'm not in favor of any kind of electronic record keeping tracking people's driving habits and taxing off of that. This doesn't need to get any more complicated than pay at the pump.

The toll tag stuff was was just tangential conversation.

Gotcha. My bad.

thats fuckd up if ur traveling 1hr to work or a regular on highways logging big kms to work and back....

at least self employed/contractors can claim deductions, but what about the regular office worker.....

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

Could any of the people on these boards calling out 'lefties' for supporting this, please show where any of the board lefties are supporting this?

Anyone?

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This would be yet another example of a government action with no popular support which nonetheless comes into existence as "our" public representatives put on their kneepads and lipstick for their corporate or bureaucratic masters.

Chapstick.

*Kneepads and chapstick* was my received version.

Amplified:

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By the case

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.

Many men are too demure for lipstick.

The government knows what's best for us, so this is a great idea that should'nt be questioned.

Hey, D.

Don't ever change. :lol

Winehole's been hittin' the bottle again!

Who said I ever stopped?

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Originally Posted by jman3000

ha... I'm actually interviewing for an internship at DHS next week : p

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:lol speaking of dumb motherfuckers

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

Sure! I'm down for that.

On a side note, I think it's interesting that no one on the boards thinks this is a good idea. :lol

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i was bored and did and quick search. being that this administration likes the european way....

BRUSSELS, April 3 (RIA Novosti) - The government of Belgium's French-speaking region of Wallonia, which has a population of about 4 million, has approved a tax on barbequing, local media reported. Experts said that between 50 and 100 grams of CO2, a so-called greenhouse gas, is emitted during barbequing. Beginning June 2007, residents of Wallonia will have to pay 20 euros for a grilling session.
The local authorities plan to monitor compliance with the new tax legislation from helicopters, whose thermal sensors will detect burning grills.
Scientists believe CO2 emissions are a major cause of global warming.



http://en.rian.ru/world/20070403/62999935.html






truth is stranger than fiction, huh lnggrrrr?

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Originally Posted by Viva Las Espuelas

The local authorities plan to monitor compliance with the new tax legislation from helicopters

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:rollin

Hilarious. How much CO2 does that helicopter put out?

I've actually got no problem with this except for the fact that it only taxes automobiles. Flight and really all travel commercial or private should be taxed and the more costly, in terms of fuel consumption per trip, the mode of travel, the higher the tax should be...in fact I'm pretty sure that wealthy liberals will get to contrbitue to "wealth redistribution" to their hearts content under this concept.

I don't need any more bad news. I'm getting sick already with the new taxes coming. Where does it end?:depressed

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Originally Posted by Spursmania

I don't need any more bad news. I'm getting sick already with the new taxes coming. Where does it end?:depressed

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It will end when the liberals in congress think they've repressed this nation enough.

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Originally Posted by Viva Las Espuelas

i was bored and did and quick search. being that this administration likes the european way....

BRUSSELS, April 3 (RIA Novosti) - The government of Belgium's French-speaking region of Wallonia, which has a population of about 4 million, has approved a tax on barbequing, local media reported. Experts said that between 50 and 100 grams of CO2, a so-called greenhouse gas, is emitted during barbequing. Beginning June 2007, residents of Wallonia will have to pay 20 euros for a grilling session.
The local authorities plan to monitor compliance with the new tax legislation from helicopters, whose thermal sensors will detect burning grills.
Scientists believe CO2 emissions are a major cause of global warming.

http://en.rian.ru/world/20070403/62999935.html


truth is stranger than fiction, huh lnggrrrr?

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Let's just kill off those who cannot justify their 'carbon footprint.'

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

Let's just kill off those who cannot justify their 'carbon footprint.'

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that's called the "obama" healthcare plan, i believe................

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Originally Posted by Spursmania

I don't need any more bad news. I'm getting sick already with the new taxes coming. Where does it end?:depressed

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when palin is elected and rollsback all the stupid things that get passed

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Originally Posted by Viva Las Espuelas

i was bored and did and quick search. being that this administration likes the european way....

BRUSSELS, April 3 (RIA Novosti) - The government of Belgium's French-speaking region of Wallonia, which has a population of about 4 million, has approved a tax on barbequing, local media reported. Experts said that between 50 and 100 grams of CO2, a so-called greenhouse gas, is emitted during barbequing. Beginning June 2007, residents of Wallonia will have to pay 20 euros for a grilling session.
The local authorities plan to monitor compliance with the new tax legislation from helicopters, whose thermal sensors will detect burning grills.
Scientists believe CO2 emissions are a major cause of global warming.



http://en.rian.ru/world/20070403/62999935.html






truth is stranger than fiction, huh lnggrrrr?

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Not when it's a hoax.

http://en.rian.ru/world/20070404/63077075.html

Looks like this was a rumor, and was never a bill seriously considered being signed into law. The fact that it said the grills were going to be monitored by HELICOPTERS gave me a clue.

Edit: Additionally, if a law like this made BELGIANS furious, imagine what it would do in America? :lol

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

Not when it's a hoax.

http://en.rian.ru/world/20070404/63077075.html

Looks like this was a rumor, and was never a bill seriously considered being signed into law. The fact that it said the grills were going to be monitored by HELICOPTERS gave me a clue.

Edit: Additionally, if a law like this made BELGIANS furious, imagine what it would do in America? :lol

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You're not supposed to post this. You're supposed to panic and get enraged at them Dems... :rolleyes

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Originally Posted by ElNono

You're not supposed to post this. You're supposed to panic and get enraged at them Dems... :rolleyes

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What's great is that it's from the same source, a day later. Also, note that the news article was posted on the 3rd of April... so most likely it came out on April Fool's Day, as the article mentioned.

Again, the idea that they were going to trace carbon emissions with HELICOPTERS seemed a giveaway.

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Originally Posted by Viva Las Espuelas

i was bored and did and quick search. being that this administration likes the european way....

BRUSSELS, April 3 (RIA Novosti) - The government of Belgium's French-speaking region of Wallonia, which has a population of about 4 million, has approved a tax on barbequing, local media reported. Experts said that between 50 and 100 grams of CO2, a so-called greenhouse gas, is emitted during barbequing. Beginning June 2007, residents of Wallonia will have to pay 20 euros for a grilling session.

The local authorities plan to monitor compliance with the new tax legislation from helicopters, whose thermal sensors will detect burning grills.
Scientists believe CO2 emissions are a major cause of global warming.

truth is stranger than fiction, huh lnggrrrr?

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State supervision of barbeque fires from helicopters? Not in my country. This would never fly here.

LNGR can always consider buying carbon offsets for his barbecues if it really bothers him.

I will continue to release barbeque smoke into the environment at will and without scruple, in the manner of my Texas countrymen. :flag:

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Originally Posted by LnGrrrR

Not when it's a hoax.

http://en.rian.ru/world/20070404/63077075.html

Looks like this was a rumor, and was never a bill seriously considered being signed into law. The fact that it said the grills were going to be monitored by HELICOPTERS gave me a clue.

Edit: Additionally, if a law like this made BELGIANS furious, imagine what it would do in America? :lol

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oh wow. i didn't even pay attention to the date. oh well, i still won't dismiss this as something that won't be used in the future just yet.

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Originally Posted by Viva Las Espuelas

oh wow. i didn't even pay attention to the date. oh well, i still won't dismiss this as something that won't be used in the future just yet.

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LnGrrrR 1, Viva 0 :lol

Hey, it's cool. We all do that every once in awhile. That's why we have opponents... to double-check our facts for us. :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Viva Las Espuelas

oh wow. i didn't even pay attention to the date. oh well, i still won't dismiss this as something that won't be used in the future just yet.

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I wouldn't be so eager to put such a weak arrow in my quiver to hedge against contingency, but you're certainly welcome to it.

Are you looking forward to the barbeque ban, VLE? :lol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Winehole23

I wouldn't be so eager to put such a weak arrow in my quiver to hedge against contingency, but you're certainly welcome to it.

Are you looking forward to the barbeque ban, VLE? :lol

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Thing is, the way government likes to regulate things, I didn't even question the accuracy of the article. It sounded like any other unreasonable things that government gives us. Now I would have looked things up myself if I went to debate anything about a tax I hadn't heard of.

Quote:

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It sounded like any other unreasonable things that government gives us.

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You wanted to believe it too? :rollin

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wild cobra

it sounded like any other unreasonable things that a socialist democrat government gives us.

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fify

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Winehole23

I wouldn't be so eager to put such a weak arrow in my quiver to hedge against contingency, but you're certainly welcome to it.

Are you looking forward to the barbeque ban, VLE? :lol

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no, but did you think buying and selling of "carbon credits" was a far fetched idea a few short years ago? i wouldn't put anything past people in washington. quit giving them so much credit.

Quote:

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no, but did you think buying and selling of "carbon credits" was a far fetched idea a few short years ago?

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Once I saw the *inconvenient* PBS special, in my ignorance I assumed it was a foregone conclusion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Winehole23

Once I saw the *inconvenient* PBS special, in my ignorance I assumed it was a foregone conclusion.

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that's right. i need to find the rags you bow down to.

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Originally Posted by Viva Las Espuelas

that's right. i need to find the rags you bow down to.

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I follow my own feeble inner lights more than any particular source.

Checked daily:

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