Russia must re-focus with post-imperial eyes

Russia must re-focus with post-imperial eyes
By Zbigniew Brzezinski

Published: July 1 2009 20:04 | Last updated: July 1 2009 20:04

President Barack Obama should have three central goals in mind when he meets Russia’s President Dmitry Medvedev and Prime Minister Vladimir Putin next week: first, to advance US-Russian co-operation in areas where our interests coincide; second, to emphasise the mutual benefits in handling disagreements between the two countries within internationally respected “rules of the game”; and third, to help shape a geopolitical context in which Russia becomes increasingly conscious of its own interest in eventually becoming a genuinely post-imperial partner of the Euro-Atlantic community.

Of the three, the first is the easiest; the second is sensitive but needs to be faced, lest there be repetitions of what happened last August, when Russian troops invaded Georgia ; and the third can only be sought indirectly – but the effort has to be strategically deliberate. In any case, it is evident that both countries would benefit from better relations. Fortunately, the financial crisis has made the Russian elite aware that, for the first time in its history, Russia’s well-being depends on the well-being of the outside world and especially of America. That reality of inter-dependence creates a felicitous setting for the summit.

Moreover, on some important issues collaboration is not only possible, but mutually beneficial. That is especially true with reciprocal reductions in nuclear weaponry, a compromise on US plans for an anti-ballistic-missile shield and joint efforts to enhance the nuclear non-proliferation treaty , among other security arrangements.

Unfortunately, on Iran, it is uncertain that the conventional wisdom – which asserts that Russia genuinely wants to be helpful – is correct. To the Russian leadership, the two long-term challenges to its power come from the US and China. Both countries would suffer grievously, while Russia would greatly benefit, if a US-Iranian crisis triggered a surge in energy prices. Hence Russian willingness to be helpful may be more formal than real.

Nor should one ignore the reality that there are serious – though not war-threatening – geopolitical conflicts of interest between the US and the Russian Federation. The bottom line is that Mr Putin resents and wants in some fashion to reverse the disintegration of the Soviet Union. Gaining control over Ukraine would restore in effect an imperial Russia, with the potential to ignite conflicts in Central Europe. Subduing Georgia would cut the west’s vital energy connection (the Baku-Çeyhan pipeline) to the Caspian Sea and to Central Asia. Azerbaijan then would have no choice but to submit to Moscow’s control.

Indeed, in the summit meetings, Mr Putin and Mr Medvedev will be looking for signs that the new US administration disowns the charters on partnership with Ukraine and Georgia signed by former President George W. Bush. Even an unintentional signal to that effect would be seen as a green light for more muscular Russian actions against these two countries.

Hence a frank discussion is needed to lay down some mutually accepted “rules of the game”. The US can indicate that Nato membership is not imminent for either country, but that the US and Russia have to respect Ukraine’s or Georgia’s right to make that choice. In the meantime, Russia must understand that the use of force or promotion of ethnic conflicts to destabilise Ukraine or Georgia would poison American-Russian relations.

Clarity on these matters, achieved through respectful but realistic discussions, would reduce the risks of Russia trying to restore an imperial system in the space previously occupied by the Tsarist empire and then the Soviet Union. Gradual consolidation of the existing national pluralism in that space would accelerate the fading of historically futile imperial ambitions.

Using the Moscow visit to identify America’s vision of the future with Russia’s own but still partially repressed democratic aspirations should be part of the summit ritual. Presumably there will be some chance to convey that message, either through a speech or gesture to honour the many (and currently in Russia ignored) victims of Leninism-Stalinism. That would also help shape a political context for Russia’s evolution towards a genuine partnership with the world of democracy.

A final point: the previous US administration favoured trivial personalisation of its relationship with Russia (such as references to Mr Putin’s “eyes” or “soul”) and highly over-stated claims of breakthroughs (“the best relationship ever” between the two countries). A more serious strategic approach that produces Russia’s acceptance of its new post-imperial realities and encourages its democratic evolution is more likely to yield enduring results, while not unleashing unrealistic public expectations.

The writer was US National Security Adviser 1977-1981. He is co-author with Brent Scowcroft of the recently published ‘America and the World’






Thought this might garner some interest.

Let oil hit $150/barrel (thanks to Goldman and other US commodity traders/gamblers), and Russia, Venezuela, Iran, etc, will be feeling all feisty again.

Fuck Putin. He turned a fledgling democracy trying to learn the ropes into an authoritarian regime.

Well, at least Sarah won't be keeping a watchful eye from Wasilla anymore...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ElNono

Well, at least Sarah won't be keeping a watchful eye from Wasilla anymore...

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Do you think that's funny? She never implied such a thing, and you are helping to propagate propaganda with that statement.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

Do you think that's funny? She never implied such a thing, and you are helping to propagate propaganda with that statement.

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I think it's hilarious.

COURIC: Have you ever been involved with any negotiations, for example, with the Russians?

PALIN: We have trade missions back and forth. We -- we do -- it's very important when you consider even national security issues with Russia as Putin rears his head and comes into the air space of the United States of America, where -- where do they go? It's Alaska. It's just right over the border. It is -- from Alaska that we send those out to make sure that an eye is being kept on this very powerful nation, Russia, because they are right there. They are right next to -- to our state.



Maybe you could tell us what she was "implying" here.

It's extremely hard to decipher pitbull bitch's twisted gibberish, but it sure sounds like Almighty Alaska, with pitbull bitch as governing watchdog, is keeping a eye on Russia.

lol pitbull bitch....

What a little man you must be irl.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

I think it's hilarious.

COURIC: Have you ever been involved with any negotiations, for example, with the Russians?

PALIN: We have trade missions back and forth. We -- we do -- it's very important when you consider even national security issues with Russia as Putin rears his head and comes into the air space of the United States of America, where -- where do they go? It's Alaska. It's just right over the border. It is -- from Alaska that we send those out to make sure that an eye is being kept on this very powerful nation, Russia, because they are right there. They are right next to -- to our state.



Maybe you could tell us what she was "implying" here.

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Are you a moore-on purposely?

Fact: Russia is less than three miles from Alaska, and can be seen from Alaska.

Fact: Wasilla is far away, nowhere close to the western part of Alaska that it's impossible to see Russia from there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jman3000

Fuck Putin. He turned a fledgling democracy trying to learn the ropes into an authoritarian regime.

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And Russians seem to love him for it.


http://pewresearch.org/assets/publications/749-1.gif

http://pewresearch.org/assets/publications/749-2.gif

http://pewresearch.org/assets/publications/749-3.gif

http://pewresearch.org/pubs/749/russia-public-opinion

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

Do you think that's funny? She never implied such a thing, and you are helping to propagate propaganda with that statement.

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It's hilarious. I was obviously making a joke and it went right over your head.
But what makes it even more funny is the response it received from Palin apologists like yourself and reading again the quotes of her response that triggered my joke.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ElNono

It's hilarious. I was obviously making a joke and it went right over your head.
But what makes it even more funny is the response it received from Palin apologists like yourself and reading again the quotes of her response that triggered my joke.

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A very bad joke that makes you look stupid because of the spoof where Tina Fey says "I can see Russia from my House."

Have you read the unedited interviews that Sarah Palin talks about Russia?

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

A very bad joke that makes you look stupid because of the spoof where Tina Fey says "I can see Russia from my House."

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Relax, it's called satire. I tought it was a pretty decent joke. I'm sorry it hit a nerve in you.
It's always a tough crowd when trying to make fun of 'pitbull bitch'.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ElNono

Relax, it's called satire. I tought it was a pretty decent joke. I'm sorry it hit a nerve in you.
It's always a tough crowd when trying to make fun of 'pitbull bitch'.

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I don't find it funny to take the gang approach to knock someone down, especially when it was nearly all slander. If you think it's funny to use slander to the degree it was, then I pity you for your lack of morality.

Something can be funny when based in truth. Never when based in slander.

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

I don't find it funny to take the gang approach to knock someone down, especially when it was nearly all slander. If you think it's funny to use slander to the degree it was, then I pity you for your lack of morality.

Something can be funny when based in truth. Never when based in slander.

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I don't find it slanderous at all. Obviously she doesn't either.
Satire is protected speech, but then again you knew that already and you're just trying to impose your partisan hack view of morality.

In other words, I don't really give a crap about your sense of partisan morality, and if you didn't like the joke, so be it. You are free to skip right over it.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

I don't find it slanderous at all. Obviously she doesn't either.
Satire is protected speech, but then again you knew that already and you're just trying to impose your partisan hack view of morality.

In other words, I don't really give a crap about your sense of partisan morality, and if you didn't like the joke, so be it. You are free to skip right over it.

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OK, tell me how your statement was funny.

What happened after the skit was by no means funny. It absolutely turned into slander.

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

OK, tell me how your statement was funny.

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I don't explain jokes. You either get it or you don't. Obviously you didn't.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ElNono

I don't explain jokes. You either get it or you don't. Obviously you didn't.

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No, I get it. It's about as funny as a Pollock joke, Niger joke, etc.

I just wanted you to say why it was funny so I could point out your poor quality of character.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

No, I get it. It's about as funny as a Pollock joke, Niger joke, etc.

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I'm sorry you didn't appreciate my humor. I'll try to balance it with some magik Negro looking for handouts and Barry jokes next time.

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

I just wanted you to say why it was funny so I could point out you poor quality of char actor.

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I think we all know what you think about my post and anything that speaks poorly of Palin. No need to rehash partisan hackery.

Niger?

What jokes could one say about Niger?

"Hey, who has one of the highest infant mortality rates in the world?"
?
"Niger!"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ElNono

I think we all know what you think about my post and anything that speaks poorly of Palin. No need to rehash partisan hackery.

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Can you speak poorly of her by using the truth, or do you have to misrepresent the truth?

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

Can you speak poorly of her by using the truth, or do you have to misrepresent the truth?

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Sure I can. I mean, her communication skills are probably out there with those of a 12 year old. And that's not a joke.
But with humor you're not limited to that. You can satirize the entire spectrum, from real things to stereotypes and what not. Ain't the 1st amendment great?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ElNono

I'm sorry you didn't appreciate my humor. I'll try to balance it with some magik Negro looking for handouts and Barry jokes next time.

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Obama the 'Magic Negro'
The Illinois senator lends himself to white America's idealized, less-than-real black man.
By David Ehrenstein, L.A.-based DAVID EHRENSTEIN writes about Hollywood and politics.
March 19, 2007

You should listed to the history of the parody:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

You should listed to the history of the parody:

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Can you summarize? I don't have audio here at the moment.

So why is Limbaugh's explanation acceptable and Letterman's explanation not?

You people picking on Palin don't know what you're talking about. Two things:

1) Even though the state capital of Juneau is several hundred miles further away from Russia than Wasilla is, Governor Palin has a crystal ball in her office that allows her to see into Vladimir Putin's soul and know what he is up to. This crystal ball is magic and can never be removed from the state of Alaska. Sarah had to work a very long time to become a White Wizard so she could use this ball. George W. Bush once had a counterfeit crystal ball, so when he thought he was looking into Valdimir Putin's soul, he was actually looking into John Malkovich. So this is a very, very important national security issue.

2) The chief job of the governor of Alaska is not to run the executive branch of government from Juneau. There is an observation tower on the western tip of Alaska overlooking the Bering Strait, and it is the governor's job to sit in that tower with binoculars and look across the strait to see if the Russians are doing anything suspicious. Governor Palin kept herself in fantastic shape climbing up and down the ladder to that tower. So again, a very, very important national security issue.

Sarah just got sick and tired of toiling day after day to protect America with her crystal ball and her binoculars, and getting nothing but grief. So she quit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ElNono

Can you summarize? I don't have audio here at the moment.

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I just edited the post, added the article from the LA Times that calls him the Magic Negro a year earlier than the parody song. In the song, it specifically states the LA Times called him the Magic Negro. The YouTube of Rush gives a detailed history of how the song came into existence.

Barack the Magic Negro

Paul Shanklin

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jman3000

So why is Limbaugh's explanation acceptable and Letterman's explanation not?

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The better question would be: Why would anybody's opinion trump what's clearly spelled out by the 1st amendment and supported by many years of case law?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jman3000

So why is Limbaugh's explanation acceptable and Letterman's explanation not?

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When is it ever comical to say a 14 year old child is having sex?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ElNono

The better question would be: Why would anybody's opinion trump what's clearly spelled out by the 1st amendment and supported by many years of case law?

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It has been deemed OK to slander a public official. Palin's 14 year old daughter is not a politician or public figure, and Letterman should be sued.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

When is it ever comical to say a 14 year old child is having sex?

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You're being disengenous and you know it. This has been gone over ad nauseum and if you're that dense that you still want to believe that then that's your business.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Extra Stout

You people picking on Palin don't know what you're talking about. Two things:

1) Even though the state capital of Juneau is several hundred miles further away from Russia than Wasilla is, Governor Palin has a crystal ball in her office that allows her to see into Vladimir Putin's soul and know what he is up to. This crystal ball is magic and can never be removed from the state of Alaska. Sarah had to work a very long time to become a White Wizard so she could use this ball. George W. Bush once had a counterfeit crystal ball, so when he thought he was looking into Valdimir Putin's soul, he was actually looking into John Malkovich. So this is a very, very important national security issue.

2) The chief job of the governor of Alaska is not to run the executive branch of government from Juneau. There is an observation tower on the western tip of Alaska overlooking the Bering Strait, and it is the governor's job to sit in that tower with binoculars and look across the strait to see if the Russians are doing anything suspicious. Governor Palin kept herself in fantastic shape climbing up and down the ladder to that tower. So again, a very, very important national security issue.

Sarah just got sick and tired of toiling day after day to protect America with her crystal ball and her binoculars, and getting nothing but grief. So she quit.

---

Your satire is not funny unless Rush Limbaugh says it is.

(DISCLAIMER FOR PALIN FANS: This post is satire)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Extra Stout

You people picking on Palin don't know what you're talking about. Two things:

1) Even though the state capital of Juneau is several hundred miles further away from Russia than Wasilla is, Governor Palin has a crystal ball in her office that allows her to see into Vladimir Putin's soul and know what he is up to. This crystal ball is magic and can never be removed from the state of Alaska. Sarah had to work a very long time to become a White Wizard so she could use this ball. George W. Bush once had a counterfeit crystal ball, so when he thought he was looking into Valdimir Putin's soul, he was actually looking into John Malkovich. So this is a very, very important national security issue.

2) The chief job of the governor of Alaska is not to run the executive branch of government from Juneau. There is an observation tower on the western tip of Alaska overlooking the Bering Strait, and it is the governor's job to sit in that tower with binoculars and look across the strait to see if the Russians are doing anything suspicious. Governor Palin kept herself in fantastic shape climbing up and down the ladder to that tower. So again, a very, very important national security issue.

Sarah just got sick and tired of toiling day after day to protect America with her crystal ball and her binoculars, and getting nothing but grief. So she quit.

---

Now this type of humor is acceptable. It is obviously fantasy, and cannot be misconstrued as truth, or seen as a lie.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jman3000

You're being disengenous and you know it. This has been gone over ad nauseum and if you're that dense that you still want to believe that then that's your business.

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Everyone knew that it was the younger daughter at the game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

Everyone knew that it was the younger daughter at the game.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by jman3000

You're being disengenous and you know it. This has been gone over ad nauseum and if you're that dense that you still want to believe that then that's your business.

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

It has been deemed OK to slander a public official. Palin's 14 year old daughter is not a politician or public figure, and Letterman should be sued.

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Deemed ok by who? You can sue anybody for slander.
The problem is that you need to prove it was not satire.
I'm sorry you only like freedom of speech when it fits your ideological canvas.
Fortunately that's not how it works.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ElNono

Deemed ok by who? You can sue anybody for slander.
The problem is that you need to prove it was not satire.
I'm sorry you only like freedom of speech when it fits your ideological canvas.
Fortunately that's not how it works.

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Is there an age appropriate concept in your mind, or are you a member of groups like NAMBLA?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

Now this type of humor is acceptable. It is obviously fantasy, and cannot be misconstrued as truth, or seen as a lie.

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Only your wicked mind can construe my post as either truth or anything real.
You seriously need to lighten up.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ElNono

Only your wicked mind can construe my post as either truth or anything real.
You seriously need to lighten up.

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A parady of something that happens can be funny. A parody of a parody is lame, and in this case, with the slander that already evolved from it and being negative, had no place in comedy that's any better than a Niger joke.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

Is there an age appropriate concept in your mind, or are you a member of groups like NAMBLA?

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I'm a member of the 'respect the constitution' group.
When something is clearly satire, I don't think there are any bounds.
That's my opinion, and I believe it's the current prevalent opinion in case law.

If there are any doubts, then there's a legal avenue to pursue.
I would actually say that if you're a card carrying Republican member you probably have enough grounds to sue. Why don't you talk less and go do something about it? I don't think it will go particularly well for you, but go right ahead.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

A parady of something that happens can be funny. A parody of a parody is lame, and in this case, with the slander that already evolved from it and being negative, had no place in comedy that's any better than a Niger joke.

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Slander and Parody are mutually exclusive. It's either parody/satire OR slander. Make up your mind.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ElNono

I'm a member of the 'respect the constitution' group.
When something is clearly satire, I don't think there are any bounds.
That's my opinion, and I believe it's the current prevalent opinion in case law.

If there are any doubts, then there's a legal avenue to pursue.
I would actually say that if you're a card carrying Republican member you probably have enough grounds to sue. Why don't you talk less and go do something about it? I don't think it will go particularly well for you, but go right ahead.

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I don't question the legality. I question your morality. Just because something is legal doesn't make it right.

All the Republicans on this board are "independent". No card carriers here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

I don't question the legality. I question your morality. Just because something is legal doesn't make it right.

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IOW, we are back on the preaching partisan morals camp.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ElNono

IOW, we are back on the preaching partisan morals camp.

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At times, I'm the first to give harsh words of people here, or make bad jokes. At least those people are here to defend themselves.

Humor is generally based on truth. The Tina Fey skit was funny. The problem came when other people repeated the concept as fact. Then to take and make humor based on what is now a lie, is absolutely in bad taste. I fail to understand how it is any funnier than a racial joke, where only the bigots think it's funny.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

I think it's hilarious.

COURIC: Have you ever been involved with any negotiations, for example, with the Russians?

PALIN: We have trade missions back and forth. We -- we do -- it's very important when you consider even national security issues with Russia as Putin rears his head and comes into the air space of the United States of America, where -- where do they go? It's Alaska. It's just right over the border. It is -- from Alaska that we send those out to make sure that an eye is being kept on this very powerful nation, Russia, because they are right there. They are right next to -- to our state.



Maybe you could tell us what she was "implying" here.

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

Are you a moore-on purposely?

Fact: Russia is less than three miles from Alaska, and can be seen from Alaska.

Fact: Wasilla is far away, nowhere close to the western part of Alaska that it's impossible to see Russia from there.

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I couldn't help but notice you didn't say what she was implying at all.

What does her mentioning Putin's rearing his head have anything to do with Palin's claimed negotiations with Russia?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

I couldn't help but notice you didn't say what she was implying at all.

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I was going to read the unedited transcript and answer that, but got sidetracked doing other things. I simply don't remember everything.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

What does her mentioning Putin's raising his head have anything to do with Palin's claimed negotiations with Russia?

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"Rears" his head.

I assume that simply has to do with having to be ready, defensively, since Alaska is the nearest US target.

I don't have those answers for you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

I was going to read the unedited transcript and answer that, but got sidetracked doing other things. I simply don't remember everything.

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But you acted as if all the evidence was already there. What was I missing in that quote as written?

Quote:

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"Rears" his head.

I assume that simply has to do with having to be ready, defensively, since Alaska is the nearest US target.

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What does Palin have to do with that specifically? Does she negotiate defense treaties with Russia? The question was about negotiation.

Quote:

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I don't have those answers for you.

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That's for sure.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

But you acted as if all the evidence was already there. What was I missing in that quote as written?

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Alaska does play a roll simply because of proximity. Even though most things are dealt with at the federal level, she is the chief executor and commander in chief of Alaska. She does have a small roll at least. The specific facts, I'm not going to bother with looking up. It was been explained, and the unedited transcript, at least for the other interview, had stuff in that answer that was deleted.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

Alaska does play a roll simply because of proximity. Even though most things are dealt with at the federal level, she is the chief executor and commander in chief of Alaska. She does have a small roll at least. The specific facts, I'm not going to bother with looking up. It was been explained, and the unedited transcript, at least for the other interview, had stuff in that answer that was deleted.

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How could she answer Couric's question in "the other interview"? Palin was asked the question in this interview, the exchange was right there in front of you.

You're just making shit up now.

Quote:

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She does have a small roll at least.

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And that role entails what?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

How could she answer Couric's question in "the other interview"? Palin was asked the question in this interview, the exchange was right there in front of you.

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A similar question was asked, was it by Gibson? Yes, at least part of the exchange was there. I don't know if in was edited or not however.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

You're just making shit up now.And that role entails what?

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I'm not sure what role she plays, but I would be very surprised it she didn't have a role. You're boring me. It's the past, and it has little relevance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

A similar question was asked, was it by Gibson? Yes, at least part of the exchange was there. I don't know if in was edited or not however.

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So what? Couric asked the question here and Palin answered it.

Quote:

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I'm not sure what role she plays, but I would be very surprised it she didn't have a role. You're boring me. It's the past, and it has little relevance.

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So now you are saying you don't even know if she has a role at all after saying she definitely had a role one post ago?

Make up your mind.

All your alleged "slander" is in the past too, when are you going to stop boring us with that?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

Humor is generally based on truth. The Tina Fey skit was funny. The problem came when other people repeated the concept as fact. Then to take and make humor based on what is now a lie, is absolutely in bad taste. I fail to understand how it is any funnier than a racial joke, where only the bigots think it's funny.

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Only bigots think racial jokes are funny?
I mean, I'm a Latino and I certainly laugh when I see a guy like Mencia making jokes about absurd generalizations of latino culture. It is funny, and I do know it's a joke.

What makes the bigot a bigot is that his racial bias can't clearly distinguish between humor and truth. It's really no different to what happened between my post and you but on the politics realm instead of the racial one.

The funniest part of Fey's Palin/Couric skit was when she answered a question using Palin's words verbatim.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

I don't question the legality. I question your morality. Just because something is legal doesn't make it right.

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How moral was it of you to post a picture in your signature of a girl who you know in real life? Of her boobs no less.

Do you think she'd appreciate you putting a picture of her up on a site that's visited by 100's if not 1000's of people each day?

That might be both immoral and illegal. I'm pretty sure if she found out she'd be able to take legal action.

You're full of shit.

He took it down within a few hours. And even though he called a few of us out for being busybodies, I think he got the message. Even though his sweetie -- he claimed -- was good with it.

Probably my favorite picture from last fall

http://peterjsullivan.files.wordpres...utin-palin.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Winehole23

He took it down within a few hours. And even though he called a few of us out for being busybodies, I think he got the message. Even though his sweetie -- he claimed -- was good with it.

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So you're excusing it AND buying his BS that she knew about it?

Nice.

:lol yeah.. that Putin pic is priceless.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jman3000

So you're excusing it AND buying his BS that she knew about it?

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This conclusion requires a couple of hostile inferences, and neither of them are necessary.

I was recapping. I thought the parenthetical "he claimed" set off WC's credibility, but perhaps that was too subtle for you.

Also, you must not be aware that I was one of the posters who originally called WC out for his sig being tacky as well as ethically challenged. Accusing me of defending WC now is as funny as it is mistaken.

I just thought it was time to turn the page on this, jman. WC was responsive to the outcry this time, and took the sig down.

It'd be a pity if you caused him to reconsider.

Don't worry, though. WC will continue to furnish most of the ammo that is used against him in these pages.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wild Cobra

Do you think that's funny? She never implied such a thing, and you are helping to propagate propaganda with that statement.

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:lmao